Kenny and Lilly are the same.
Let's be honest, Kenny and Lilly are pretty much the same.
People say that Kenny only cares about his family but Lilly did too. She cared about her father and if we had a Duck and Shawn situation like for example Larry and Mark, Lilly would save Larry and let Mark to die.
People also say that Kenny always forgets that you always supported him but Lilly is not different by taking the RV and leaving both Lee and Clementine in the dust even if you tried to save her dad and always sided with her. No matter how loyal you are to Lilly, she will always take the RV and leave both Lee and Clementine so she is not much better than Kenny.
Instead of saying that "Kenny is better than Lilly" or "Lilly is better than Kenny" we should treat them both as equals. Both of them lost their families and Kenny got his redemption. If Lilly appears in season 2, she might get redemption aswell hopefully.
Comments
The word "redemption" is being tossed around in relation to S2 so often it's in danger of becoming a cliche. While I have no personal grudge with Lily (in some ways she's less of an asshole than Kenny was, even if the scene outside the RV is unavoidable), can't we just deal with the notion that some characters from S1 are pretty much beyond help, regardless if they survived?
I said she might redemption, not that she will definitely get redemption. We will see if Telltale still has plans for Lilly or not.
Two aggressive people opting to be in charge in order to look out for their family? Their similarities are part of why they butted heads so much.
Kenny didn't kill anyone who he knew didn't pose a threat. Lily did. Especially if you saved Carley instead of Doug, because then Lily just shoots her simply because she's arguing with her. If you accept that Kenny has his flaws, and may do things a bit too rash, then Kenny's awesome. Kenny thought Larry posed a threat, Lily knew Carley was a good person who was completely unthreatening. Yes, Kenny was wrong, and a bit foolish, but at least he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing! Besides, Kenny at least TOLD everyone he was going to kill Larry before doing so- Lily just shot Carley completely out of the blue.
Similarly, if you accept Lilly has her flaws, such as her depression and untrusting state after the murder of her father, then Lilly's awesome.
I agree they are pretty much the same charatchers, wich charatcher you choose as the one on your side might be influenced by what you think is the best way to survive in an appocalypse. I only agreed with Kenny when he presented the boat idea, for the rest I was with Lilly, i she looked more leader material than Kanny, but that was just my idea, the problem with Lilly is that she started being all screwed up after Larry died... But I don't blame anyone for protecting their loved ones better than others... That's why you start wuith a "clear" charatcher (Lee) in terms of relations, so tou can choose freely who you side with, and who are your loved ones.
I have to agree with monkeyisland, Kenny lost his whole family and still potentially has your back. It's one thing to lose your dad vs the love of your life and your kid? Kenny it is.
Lily is far worse, her killing Doug/Carly was coldblooded plain and simple. At least Kenny had a reason (albeit a flimsy one) to kill Larry.
Kenny and Lilly's situations were completely different. It's one thing to come to terms with having to kill a loved one for their own good (Duck) or having a loved one kill themselves out of their own volition (Katjaa), but it's a completely different case having a loved one suddenly and brutally killed by people you may not have gotten along with yet trusted all the same (Larry). Lilly lost her family in such a way that paranoia and trust being an issue made complete sense. I'd give her some slack.
Kenny, Awesome? Hell no. He left Lee to die on multiple occasions; at least Lily actually bothered to act and help.
It's not their physical relationship that matters, it's the fact that Larry and Katjaa and Duck were the only family that Lilly and Kenny had left.
I don't think it's fair to say 'your wife killing herself is worse than someone's dad being murdered', it's a non-argument.
These are the people both characters cared most about in the apocalypse, and were trying hardest to look after.
At least Katjaa died on her own terms, Larry had his life stolen away from him.
Lilly had a reason to try and shoot Ben in Doug's scenario doesn't she?
Name one of these 'multiple occasions'
No. She doesn't.
Ben posed no immediate threat to her or anyone else. The kid was begging for mercy, for Christ's sake. If she wanted to get rid of him, she could have waited for Kenny to weigh in on the situation or tied him up and figured out what to do with him later.
She didn't have any evidence implicating Ben anyway, other than him being really panicky and that's pretty much Ben's defining character trait. And even if she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Ben (which she didn't), she did not have to execute him with no warning in front of everybody, including Clementine.
So no, there was no reason for what Lilly did. She was just a crazy, unstable bitch at that point
I don't know if being driven to kill yourself out of grief for your dying son really counts as "on your own terms..." And not to bring up old arguments but some would say that, at most, Larry had his slim chance to be revived stolen away from him.
Larry as a Walker would have destroyed them. Kenny/Lee can barely get the salt lick off the ground to crush his head laying down, much less Larry standing up as a walker. Kenny saw the risk and done what he thought was for the greater good. After losing their families they were both somewhat unstable, but at least Kenny didn't kill innocents. My comparison of losing your father vs your wife/kid was meant to apply where the level of instability came from. Hypothetically speaking, if Lilly had a husband and child and lost them in a similar fashion vs Kenny losing a parent... I think even in that scenario Lilly would still prove more paranoid/unstable.
He took Lee with him in the RV, he saved Lee at the drug store after Larry punched him, Killed Larry to prevent reanimation, He tried his best to save Lee in the alley in episode 4. That's even when you aren't his best buddy, when you help him out he saves your ass even more times, people always criticize Kenny for killing Larry and being a dick but wouldn't you be mad after everyone you knew even your best friend and wife are neglecting you because you did what you thought was in the best interest of the group? People call him shallow but take a look at yourselves ...
Episode 2 when he watched Danny from almost killing Lee, but only if Lee didn't choose to help kill Larry.
Episode 3 when he didn't lift a finger to help fend off walkers from Lee who was trapped under a door piled with walkers, and watched as he had to lift the door off of him himself.
Episode 4 when he stayed hidden and watched as a scavenger (Molly) almost killed Lee, and would have if it wasn't for the unexpected appearance of Clementine.
Maybe not directly, but he came awfully close when he refused to help Lee find Clementine out of some petty grudge.
(Not to mention the time when he goaded Lee into leaving that nameless woman on the street to die horribly. If Kenny just wanted to secure more supplies for the group, I could understand his attitude, but if you chose to shoot the woman, he puts you on the spot in front of everybody else.)
At least for episodes 2 and 3, I don't count that as much as leaving him to die as much as it is that due to not seeing you as close of a friend, he's not as willing to put his own life on the life as much. Same happens with Lilly in episode 2 if you chose differently except she wouldn't have even needed to risk her own life in that encounter.
Kenny was prepared to leave Lily behind. He had a self righteous attitude, and only cared for one thing - his family.
You know, Larry could have been saved? Has he have given Lee a chance at CPR, then there was the chance he could come back. But he was quick to act, and murdered Lily's father in cold blood.
I can't believe you're comparing people with a video game character. What's the point? You're just asking for a flame war.
Well, in the end it was Ben. Has she have just killed him then, it would have all been dealt with. Had he have not been so selfish and stupid, Katjaa, Duck, Carley/Doug, Lee and Kenny would still be alive.
It was obviously Ben. He was prepared to let anybody take the blame for what he had done. Did you see him fess up when Lily started on Carley? No, he didn't.
I can explain why I like Kenny more than Lilly.
I'll admit they both have a lot in common. Neither of them are saints.
The main difference: At the last time you see her, even if you take her side on every single issue 100% of the time, she will try to save herself by revealing your secret, kills Carley right in front of Clem even though she probably knows there is something between her and Lee, and if you accept her offer to leave with her in the RV, she abandons you and Clementine with a useless Ben, Katjaa, a bitten Duck, and a man who probably hates your guts right now (Kenny).
Even if you never take Kenny's side, he will always save you in the drugstore in episode 1, will always let you get in his RV away from the bandits in episode 3, and will eventually decide to help you find Clementine (his motivational speech next to the dead couple in episode 5 concludes with "Let's figure a way out of here and get that little girl).
When you save Ben from Crawford, Kenny will forgive Ben for killing his wife and son. More so than between Lilly and Larry, Kenny (rightly) felt an obligation to protect them with his life. If his death would mean that either of them would still be alive, he would gladly give his life (as would Lilly for Larry, I'll admit). Ben caused him to loose his entire family in one of the most agonizing ways possible. I consider myself a decent person, but in his position, I would have simply shot Ben in the face the moment he admitted to doing that. I would have never forgiven him.
If Ben is saved, Kenny feels obliged to try and save Ben to make up for all the mistakes he has made. He regrets all the choices he has made. Was it foolish and hopeless, absolutely. But it was something he had to do. I understand that much (even though I prefer the Christa ending).
If Ben is dropped at the bell tower, Kenny is lost to the herd trying to save Christa. I have to confess, I always thought Christa was a bit of a bitch. Not to a major extent, and I knew her attitude could be hard to put up with, but she had good intentions. Even still, she didn't mean anything to Kenny, and it's clear the two of them didn't get along. Even still, he jumped down there because he wanted to save her unborn child. Kenny already had the blood Shawn and (in his mind) Duck on his hands, he felt like he had to make that up by not sitting back while another child dies.
In conclusion:
The first time you meet Kenny, he offers you a ride in his car to Macon on his way to Ft. Lauderdale.
The first time you meet Lilly, she is pissed at Carley and Glenn for not letting Kenny and his family, Lee, and Clementine get eaten alive.
The last time you see Kenny, he is lost to the herd trying to save someone's life.
The last time you see Lilly, she kills Carley remorselessly in front of Clem, exposes your past, and steals the RV (which, by the way, she was so pissed off at Kenny for fixing).
That's the difference between Kenny and Lilly.
If you want to see where I initially posted this, click here.
It seems Kenny fans mindlessly dislike my comment. Cute.
I'm not team Lilly or team Kenny but I'm not an idiot, Larry was not dead. I agree completely with that but he was finished, once he hit that floor I knew what we had to do. There was no chance in hell Larry was getting back up without medication, we we're in a enclosed space and he was a giant. He had a very slim survival rate and lets look at this logicaly, If your in a room with 4 people still alive and one is a child would you stick your neck out for a guy who is knocking on deaths door and is very likely to come back and eat you all? I dont hold any grudges against people and I was nice to Larry up to that point but thats just my opnion, I don't think we will ever know if Larry was going to turn or could be saved. Kenny and Lilly both have their flaws but Kenny in my opinion was the better person.
I'm not sure if that was intentional, but I like what you did with "nameless woman." I don't have an elaborate counter to Kenny putting you on the spot if you shot the girl because I didn't shoot her, but I will assume that by shooting her and attracting the walkers to them, it was Kenny's way (albeit spiteful) of sticking it to Lee for not listening to him. While I'm not intending to stand up for Kenny, I am standing up for my opinion that him and Lilly aren't equal.
larry definitely wasn't dead.... you can clearly see him taking a breath right before douchebag murdered him.
so in other words, your just another kenny superfan. about half of what you said is only true if playing a runthrough of the game siding with kenny everytime. Disagree once and almost none of the "good kenny" stuff is true.
Will this argument ever freakin die? I cant be the only one sick of this same argument.....
That could have been reanimation as well, now we'll never know. "Better safe than sorry"
Did I say he was dead? I agree he wasn't dead but he was pretty much going to die either way. We had no medication for him and if you notice in the drugstore that one wasn't so severe that he passed out and they even say he could die from it, this one made him hit the ground like a sack of shit and he was out cold. His heart had stopped, they couldn't hear breathing or get a pulse and we had no medication or medical equipment. The chances of him surviving are your estimations for Kenny still being alive, not a lot.
Had she shot Ben, we never would have known it was him because we don't find out until later. Heck, Lilly doesn't even truly know it was him because she was gone by the next episode anyway. It wasn't "obviously Ben" it just feels that way because we actually find out.
Mind looking for some examples of stuff I said that only happens in a side with Kenny 100% play through. I didn't side with Kenny all the time. He is not a saint, and Kenny and Lilly do have some similarities.
If you side against Kenny, he will mostly be an asshole but occasionally do something nice for you.
If you side with Lilly, her last actions in game cause significant damage to Clem (shooting someone in the head while she watches, and ditching you if you say you will leave with her in the RV), and she will reveal your past to try and save herself. I'm not saying she didn't have reasons to do those things, but that doesn't make them right.
If you side against Lilly, she will never do anything for you. I wouldn't blame her for that. I do blame her for ditching Lee and Clem if Lee always has her back.
Telltale's already stated the scene is supposed to be ambiguous. He may have been drawing a breath. He may have been ready to suddenly munch down on Lee's neck in close range.