Blaming Ben*S1 SPOILERS*
TheDuck
Banned
We’ve all done it, but how fair are we really being? This isn’t going to be a post about age or intentions, but looking at how we hold him accountable for certain things over other characters.
For example, Carley/Doug’s death. That didn’t happen because Ben was stealing supplies. More than anything, I’d blame Kenny-and potentially Lee-for murdering her dad like that. Lilly would have been furious about the supplies regardless, but she probably would have had the group vote or just kicked the person out. It was her mental instability, caused by the sudden and brutal murder of her dad, that made her snap and take a shot.
The bandits started attacking the group after the dairy fell. We saw in Episode 3 how easily they were able to enter and take everyone hostage in a matter of seconds. If Ben HADN'T made a deal with them, they would have attacked before the RV was done and a much worse fate would likely have befallen the group. We know what they do to girls, even ones as young as Clem.
Katjaa/Duck’s deaths could be blamed largely on Lee and maybe even Kenny. Kenny should have immediately made sure his family was safe. Lee should not have put the gun down and stopped shooting to hug Clementine, especially when she, Katjaa, and Duck were still in danger. They were being fired at by bandits and overrun by walkers. I know he’s glad she’s safe, but that was not the time. Had he kept focused until Duck and Katjaa were over too, he might have been able to stop the walker before it bit Duck.
The same goes for Chuck’s death. Your group is under attack by zombies from all sides, and you lower your gun to hug Clementine? Probably wouldn’t have had to leave Chuck behind if Lee had kept his gun out and actually used it.
I'm not saying Ben is blameless, only that it's not fair to act like all these tragedies are solely his fault, while absolving everyone else.
Comments
1: Of course Kenny and Lee (if you chose to kill Larry) are to be blamed for her dads death, and yes it fucked her up mentally but she was taking it out on Ben without knowing it was him, that's why Ben lied, because she was barking at him and he couldn't handle it. If she would've just talked calmly to him he probably would've told the truth but she was acting like he was going to get killed if he admitted he did it.
2: Well if that happened then i'm afraid everyone would be fucked. Because with the amount of noise, the Walkers would've came and overpowered everyone. and with the RV not working how would the group be able to flee? they can't just run out with the bandits shooting.
3: To be fair on Lees part, he didn't have time to shoot the Walker who bit Duck. He hugged Clem then he got up and the Walker fell and bit Duck. Imagine how hard that would be to shoot a Walker in the head while it's falling and you have what? 1 second to shoot it before it bites Duck? Katjaa killing herself was her on doing. She couldn't handle herself going on without her son. if you listen to Kenny's speech about suicide in Episode 5 he explains how he forgives her, but it doesn't make it less wrong. Go watch it again, it's such a great speech. And considering Lee was shooting Walkers and Bandits, Katjaa was with Duck and Clementine, Lilly was shooting Bandits/Walkers, Carley/Doug and Ben were trapped Who else is going to Start the RV Up besides Kenny? If he went with Katjaa and Duck, know one would've been starting the RV up thus no way of escaping.
4:Not sure if trolling now or being serious? Lee uses his gun to shoot the Walker who's got Kenny's leg, then he uses the gun to shoot the Walkers approaching Clemetine, the game doesn't let you shoot all of them but you can choose to try and help Chuck but Chuck HIMSELF says "I'll be fine, Just go". They didn't abandon him, Chuck said he was fine.
I don't really understand the point you are trying to make with statements 1 and 2.
Lee probably WOULD have been able to shoot that walker, had he not put his gun down in the middle of an ambush. He likely would have seen the walker in time to kill it. And Katjaa killed herself as a result of Duck getting bitten.
How am I trolling? Chuck might not have been in that position if Lee had put off hugging Clementine for later and instead started taking down some walkers to aid him and protect all three of them.
You have some good points. Even still, I blame Ben for what happened at the motor in and Carley/Doug. When the bandits said they had his friend, I can understand him not telling the group. When they (later) told him they would kill their entire group, that's when he should have told them about the deal. They would have probably left the motor inn as soon as the RV worked, not waiting for bandits to attack them.
As for Chuck, Ben had a presumably loaded gun in his hand (we don't see him fire a single shot). I'm sorry, but three months into the apocalypse, you shouldn't panic in moments like that.
You also forgot to address what happened to Brie and potentially Molly. Its possible that he didn't know that the axe was covering the door, but that was a stupid move on his part. If you don't bring Clem its possible for Molly to get separated from the group (or even shot by Lee), and we don't know what happens to her after that.
As for Brie, that one's on him. Lets excuse him from the walkers he let in to the building. If walkers are banging at the door to the room, is it really a good idea to tell the guy who's in charge of getting you out (Kenny was breaking down the door) that you are to blame for his entire family's death? You can't really blame anyone else for that other than him. If you where in Kenny's shoes, what would you have done? I'd be pissed with Ben too. Kenny was even telling Ben to save it for when they get out of the school.
For the record, I did save him in Crawford. Three reasons:
Clem seemed to like him, and I didn't want to take away someone she considered a friend (for whatever reason).
I wasn't going to let him die like that. I'll admit that just because he's to blame doesn't mean he intended to get everyone killed.
I was honestly hoping to see Kenny give him a much deserved ass kicking.
Ben probably didn't feel like he could tell the group. Lilly was psychotic, and how would you like to tell Kenny you've put his family in danger or Lee that you put Clementine in danger? It's a frightening thing to tell people, and given how they didn't really want him around in the first place-and seem to have very little use for him-getting thrown out of the group was a real possibility. Kenny might have left with his family if Ben had told, but I'm not so sure about everyone else.
I don't think zombies and terrifying situations are something you can just adjust to over time. Ben is clearly not a fighter, and again, I'm not saying he's blameless. Leaving Clem was wrong. My point is that he's not the only one to blame in these instances. Lee was reckless.
I didn't forget to address what happened at the school. That is pretty much entirely Ben's fault. However, I do think it's worth pointing out that Lee KNOWINGLY did pretty much the exact same thing in the first episode. I don't see anyone blaming him for the death of Doug or Carley that happens as a result.
I don't necessarily blame Ben for everything bad that happened to the group, but he is accountable for the disaster that sets off the bandit raid in Episode 3. He stole from Lilly's supplies who was already suffering from emotional instability due to her father's brutal death, leading her to be paranoid and suspicious of the group's involvement who clearly don't believe her when she says that the supplies are being stolen.
While his theft act to keep the bandits away appeared to be noble, he did it without consulting anyone, especially to Lilly who he stole from. He failed to confess when first confronted about the broken flashlight before the bandit raid, and continued to stay quiet when the group is forced to flee from the bandits after Lee took back the stolen supplies. Even after the death of Carley/Doug who was killed for defending Ben (albiet without knowing that he was the culprit), he still kept quiet, and finally confessed when he was made aware of Duck's fate, and when his actions involving the theft was long finished and done with.
I understand that he was scared and never inteded to cause harm to anybody, but his cowardice did indirectly cause the murder of Carley/Doug and the death/zombification and suicide of Duck and Katjaa respectively. Had he confessed right from the start, a lot of heartache, if not all, could have been avoided.
By number 1 i mean that Ben was pressured by Lily who was fixated on finding out who did it, Lee can tell her multiple times to tell her to stop.
Pretty much her way of doing it ended up causing Carely/Doug to have an argument. if she would've acted more calmly Carely/Doug wouldn't of got shot.
and 2: Like you said, the Bandits would've came before the RV was done and a much more worse fate would've happened. The thing is, if they started shooting the Walkers would've came and if the group can't get out with the RV, how are they going to escape?
It's a 50-50 weather he would've or not but what you have to understand is that in real life, situations like that happen fast, he would've had 1 maybe 2 seconds to react, imagine how quick it feel being in his position.
Exactly, like i said, she couldn't handle the fact that Duck would be a walker or she'd have to live on without him.
Didn't they say lets help Chuck? and he said he'll be fine? maybe they were saving the bullets because remember Walkers were coming from everywhere.
I;m pretty sure though that had Chuck not said he'll be fine and to go they would've. it was Chucks decision.
But like i said, if Kenny went and stayed with his wife and kid, who would've been getting the RV started?
Lily and Lee were shooting Walkers and Bandits.
Kenny would've been with his wife and Duck with Clementine
and Ben and Doug/Carely were trapped so someone had to get it going.
The bandits started attacking the group immediately after the dairy fell. Ben's actions didn't cause the raid, only delayed it, which ultimately saved the group's life. Lilly was going to snap eventually regardless, whether supplies were being stolen or not. The supplies being stolen might not have helped her mental state, but you can bet dealing with the bandits everyday would have been a lot worse for her. I've given reasons why Ben would not tell anyone what he'd done, and even before the fact, he was dealing with the life of what might be one of his only surviving friends. We all know Lilly and Kenny would never have agreed to deal with the bandits, and they're the only ones with any real say and access, save for maybe Lee. And once he's confided in them, he can't take the supplies on his own, which would mean his friend is doomed. Confessing became even harder the more they lost, as Carley/Doug died in part because of him, and then Kenny lost his family too. I'm amazed he was able to come clean at all. Confessing to Lilly immediately would likely have ended in his death or him being left for dead, so again, can hardly blame him for keeping quiet. Who on earth would confess to Lilly when she is acting like that? I don't think I would.
Ben had intentions of keeping the group safe. People forget he was only a highschool kid. Christ being in my mid-30's I can't even count all the stupid shit I caused, or the amount of times I ended up in the back of a police car when I was younger, and I had a perfectly normal life with no reason to really do dumb things. He was a kid who was just scared, and made some stupid mistakes. Just because the world ended, doesn't mean he would drop all the bad choices at the end of the world. We all do dumb shit at some point or another. When Ben spoke in episode 5 back at the house you really get a better understanding of he's just still that high school kid who never got home to his folks. It doesn't justify his actions of course, but in the end he was just trying to help even though he was terrified of what's going on in this new effed up world. You can sit there and easily condemn a person to die, but it will only take away what's left of your humanity. It's a major theme in the "TWD" comics on what justifies the means to an end. You can turn your back on this person, leave them to die, or keep together to try to make what time you got left in this world. I know honestly if this happened to me being a kid I would of lied through my teeth anyway. He was also about to open his mouth about it before you lost Doug or Carley, but it all happened so fast. He then carried that burden of knowing that he was responsible for getting people killed, and that's a lesson that he wouldn't of forgotten for the rest of his days.
Though Ben delayed the attack, he still should have come clean to the group. The group was attacked quckly after the bandits realised that the trade failed, and everyone was in the dark of why the bandits came to attack them at this particular moment, and the commotion attracted the walkers, resulted in Duck getting bit.
If Lee knew that the supplies was to help fend the bandits off, then Lee would have no reason to take them and would instead try to convince the group to run from the bandits instead, since they now know that the bandits left them alone soley because of the trade that went under their nose, and they can't keep it up forever since they have their own group to look after. Even if Ben stayed silent because he realised that his friend would be in danger if he confessed, he could have taken a chance and explained to everyone, it's not as if the bandits could listen and watch Ben 24/7.
Lilly didn't snap until after the attack. Beforehand she was more interested in locating the missing supplies and finding whoever was the culprit. She said herself that she's not going to start a witch-hunt, and that was when she still had the motel to run. The moment the motel was lost, Lilly truly started to lose it and went against what she said earlier. Granted I have no evidence of this, but the chance of her not wasting Ben for confessing before the raid is still there, and unfortunately for Ben he didn't take that chance.
I understand that everyone in the group would have freaked out if Ben said that he had already been giving supplies to the bandits to get his friend. What I'm saying he should have done is told them that bandits got ahold of him when he was off doing some basic chore (he must have been alone with them at some point), and say that they would kill everyone there if they didn't give them supplies. If Lilly brings up the missing supplies, he could just say that he was afraid of what their reaction would be. He wouldn't have to mention the fact that he thought the bandits had his friend. If he only told them that they would kill everyone, one of them would at least realize the bandits could have captured any of them and made the same demands.
As for leaving Clem, yeah he's not a fighter, but you would think he would at least fire off some wild shots before running away.
Also, are you talking about triggering the alarm in the pharmacy? If not, then what did Lee do?
Read my reply below for why it wouldn't have been a good idea for Ben to tell the others when the bandits contacted him in the first place.
If you're scared, you're scared. He froze up completely.
I'm talking about breaking the lock. Lee didn't even tell anyone he was planning to do this. They could have prepared better-maybe even came up with a way to reseal the gate again once he was done.
I already gave a bunch of reasons as to why Ben couldn't come clean. The bandits were going to eventually attack regardless, but Ben managed to keep them at bay for a while. A lot of the stuff you're saying was kind of already addressed in my earlier reply. You're also completely ignoring the point of this topic, which is that other people are partly to blame for these things.
Lilly was on the verge of snapping any ANYTHING that happened pushed her further towards it. And again, the whole reason she was like that in the first place was because her father was killed.
A lot of people seem to be missing that this topic is not about absolving Ben of all guilt, but about pointing out that he is not the only person to blame for the stuff he usually gets blamed for.
In regards to the lock, you actually can tell group members about it. You can ask Doug if he knows the combo, and he reveals that nobody knows the combo. You can also ask Glenn (who placed the lock) if he knows the combo, and he actually suggests that "you're probably better off breaking it if you have too."
As to putting the group in danger, he wouldn't have to reveal that. All he had to do was say that bandits cornered him while he was doing something for the group, and told him to give them drugs or everyone dies. It wouldn't be him putting them in danger, the bandits could have gotten ahold of everyone.
I'm not saying it might have gone smoothly for him. But he would have at least one ally, either Carly or Doug. Both stand up to Lilly (who was at her breaking point) and defend Ben, and Doug actually gives his life to save Ben.
Pinning all the blame on one character is kind of dumb.
Everything to do with the motor inn has tons of causes for each thing that happens
Chuck's incident can really be pinned on Molly more than anyone else
The only thing I really blame ben for is the hatchet, that was all him. Still one of the people I really liked in my group
Of course other people are responsible, Kenny (and potentially Lee) is responsible for the death of Larry. Lee and Lilly are responsible for the supplies being found and thus the bandits attacking the motel for not retrieving said supplies, even if they didn't know of the reason why the theft happened in the first place. Lilly is responsible for the death of Carley/Doug, though her insanity was caused by Kenny's (possibly with Lee's help) actions. The whole group share the blame for their downfall, not just Ben.
None of that really changes what I said, though...
There's a difference between asking a few people if they know the combo and alerting the group to the fact you're about to put them all in serious danger.
Did you read the post mentioned? The group could easily punish him for stealing supplies, no matter why he did it, and there are plenty of reasons for him not to tell anyone the bandits approached him. Doug and Carley are nice, but they're not in any position to really help him. Kenny, Lilly, and maybe Lee are more the leaders of the group.
Yet all you ever hear, for the most part, is people hating and blaming Ben.
I see peple hating and blaming Lilly for most of the part, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating her character. Same goes for Ben too.
If people don't like them, so what?
no, fuck Ben! He knew stealing supplies after Lily's dad was murdered would push her over the edge and then lied after seeing what happened to Katjaa and Duck. Don't fuck with a man's emotions and family, Also, he kept fucking up with the things in Episode 4 and he was just too much of a liability and caused too much pain and near death situations.
Lily wasn't psychotic, her dad was killed right in front of her, the only thing she had left in the world was destroyed and now she has somebody slapping her in the face by stealing supplies. Ben's young and ignorant but is taking the supplies really a good idea for a group that just let you into their home recently a smart thing to do? He took it upon himself and made a selfish choice and ultimately pays the price for it one way or another. All in all, FUCK BEN!
I never get the argument about the bandits attacking sooner. Sure they might have done, but if Ben had warned the group, they would have seen it coming. Either the group would have left sooner or they would have at least been more prepared to defend an assault.
I didn't mean that she was literally psychotic, just that that was how she was acting. His choice was hardly selfish. He did it to save his friend, possibly the only person from his old life he had left. Then, he did it to protect the group. Right or wrong, at heart, stealing the supplies was never that selfish. If protecting people you care about is selfish, then let's have some more hate for Kenny and Lee.
There was no way he could have known that. And how exactly could he come clean after what happened to Katjaa and Duck? That would be the worst and hardest time to do so.
The bandits DID attack the group repeatedly after the dairy fell. Lilly mentions it, and you can see their arrows in the wall blocking off the entrance to the inn. They'd been quiet recently, but only because Ben was sneaking them supplies.
That was surely just harassing them though, since i take it they never attacked with enough force to get inside. Scare tactics to convince them to do a deal.
My point is that whilst doing a deal may well have been the right thing to do, doing so without telling anyone however? Abysmal idea which left the group very poorly prepared (ultimately resulting in Kat & Ducks death).
Jesus, I can't read all of this.
I doubt the bandits were JUST harassing them, and the fact that they had meant that the group WASN'T ill-prepared. They knew the bandits existed and were out to hurt them. Ben telling people would have put his friend in danger, and would not have helped anyone.
They shot a lot at a wall and hit nobody, then when when they wanted to overpowered the group in seconds. I would say the previous "attacks" weren't serious efforts. I don't think they fully appreciated the scale of the threat and should have left sooner (Ben's information might have helped prompt that decision).
As for how telling people would have helped? Lets ignore the culpability on Ben for actually believing that the bandits had his friend. It would have enabled Lee to know what he was doing when he was taking the supplies back for one. The groups defense was probably also severely crippled by putting Ben on watch, since i suspect he allowed the bandits to get close before raising alarm (as they were there to pick up the supply drop) Perhaps also the decline in attacks after the deal caused them to slack of in defense, it's impossible to say for certain, other than it is easier to make the correct decisions when you have all the information and Ben withheld some.
Ultimately through a combination of trust issues and stupidity he ended up being quite the load for everyone else to carry, and while he wasn't malicious you have to say a lot of the motives for his decisions involve putting his safety above everyone else's.
I think the group managed to keep them at bay, but then they only had Ben on guard and Lilly/Lee nowhere in sight. No way were they underestimating the bandits. I believe that Jolene's recording made them stay ready, but then a while of the bandits not attacking, combined with everything going on, made them lower their guard a little.
I've already said why Ben WOULDN'T tell, though. Lee might not take the supplies back, but there is hardly a guarantee. Ben could still get kicked out or hurt.
No, I don't see Ben's decisions as putting his safety first.
I understand he's not entirely to blame. Then again, from episode 3 on, its hard to point to anything that isn't somehow partially his fault.
When he said that he found the axe just wedged in the door handle, it felt like he was some sort of cartoon character or something. I mean, come on, who can be that stupid? Any teenager would be able to piece together why an item might be keeping a door shut in a zombie apocalypse.
Well, he was both eager and desperate to be helpful. He was given one job-get that door open,-and he failed. When Kenny, who he feels indebted to, tasks him with finding something so he could do it instead, he recklessly grabbed the first, and probably only, useful thing he could. We can assume there were no zombies trying to break down the door when he took the axe, either.