I like the writing for the most part, especially the "Still. Not. Bitten" line. The only thing that really bothered me was the whole dog part but that was mostly just down to me always finding those kind of scenes too heartbreaking for me to handle and I did know there was no way they were going to let us have a dog. I did miss having Clementine give comments like Lee did, which stood out most when I was looking at things in the shed but she had a lot of dialogue moments to make up for it. It takes a bit to get use to less-emotional influenced voice but I do think it's better this way and it does shine through that it's a deliberate choice rather than a lack of talent on the actress' side.
The start of season two was rubbish.. after falling down that river though, it starts to get good. It could have actually started from that before slowly revealing the past, making Omid's death less of a cop out.
The bandit (and she wasn't even a very good one) felt so forced, starting from dropping the water bottle. You also lacked control for quite a bit of time, I mean, compared to season 1's episode 1.
The writing is pretty bad, it has been pointed out many times why it is bad. For example (this is just one of many):
Clementine could ha… moreve just run for her gun when the scavenger slooowly entered the bathroom (normal reaction, she was like 1-2 meters away). But Telltale really wanted to kill off Omid and created some badly written bullshit to get rid of him. Uninspired writing at it's best!
I also like how Clementine can hear somebody enter the bathroom without any problem. The scavenger was completely deaf and couldn't hear Omid enter though. ^^
Season 2 writing at it's best. rofl.
Season 2 has some of the worst and most uninspired writing that I have ever seen in a game. And it's not just the illogical and unbelievable situations, but the bland and underdeveloped characters and character interaction.
I thought the new group seemed to be a very unlikable bunch (especially compared to the people we know in 400 days or even season one). Sarah seems like a pretty interesting character but otherwise I was hoping there would be an option for Clementine to attempt to steal a map and be on her own way.
The dog scene? I was really hoping Clementine won't get an animal champion. I thought his behavior seemed natural (while making a point at how unpredictable animals can be) because I kept the beans for myself. Glad my jokes that we'll be playing as Sam in season three won't come to light.
So I played again. And about the motivation thing:
They are already discussing leaving the cabin. Some want, some don't. If you eavesdrop on the kitchen for as long and as often as you can, you get some motivation from within the cabin-crew (pretty much like season one: "we're safe here" - "no we're not" - "where would we go" - "we find something"). Didn't try that the first time, since I didn't want to get caught. Turns out, you can't get caught.
I disagree. You're confusing physical inaction with lack of motivation or wishes. Their goal (as impossible as it was) was to survive until … morethings got better. (That was their shared goal, but they were also fiercely motivated by personal ones; goals we could relate to.) And while we know now that that was impossible, they were still striving for something, for things to change and get better.
There was real energy in their interaction and in their (baseless) hope that things would change. Lee (and the audience through him) always very strongly felt a need to protect Clementine. That was his motivation. (By making Lee and Clem have real fears and wishes, it made us have them as well.) Clementine always had a pressing need to find her parents. Kenny had a pressing need to protect his family. These weren't just some blasé things that we're supposed to infer. There was actual emotion there.
Waiting was their "plan" in season one unti… [view original content]
Sorry for the long-winded response. I'm going to go off on a couple tangents...
Yes, those characters may have motivations, technically speaking. For example, the pregnant woman is motivated by a fear that the baby will be okay and that her husband is the father. But these were all very low-level, barely felt things. I didn't feel those motivations as a player; I didn't relate to them. The people in the first season REALLY cared about things. You could palpably feel Lee's inner decency and desire to protect Clementine. You could palpably relate to Kenny's alpha-male like need to protect his family against Larry's ranting. You could feel all the different group dynamics of Larry being loud and Lilly being both loyal to him and apologetic about him at the same time. You could palpably feel their fear as they just tried to hang on in that drug store, and then their desperation as they were high-tailing it out of there. Even Carley's one-off, heart-to-heart conversation with Lee in the drugstore office resonated.
The motivations of the second season characters are all like, "Yeah, whatever. Maybe we should leave. But whatever." Not only that, but unlike the people in season one, I didn't care about any of them. I didn't care about the health of the pregnant woman's baby. If I found out in episode two that she died between now and then, I'd shrug my shoulders. If I found out Luke had died choking on a piece of meat I'd say, "whatever." I didn't care whether Nick and Pete could finally see eye to eye, or that the spineless hen-pecked husband of the pregnant lady could stay on her good side. At all. I didn't relate to any of them since they all felt like mindless pawns in an "idiot plot", and their overall attitude was one of sheeple.
Yes, there was mention of physically propelling their bodies from point A to point B, but it doesn't feel very important, so unlike when the group were high-tailing it out of the drugstore protecting their loved ones last season. There was lipservice from Carlos about being concerned for his daughter (conveyed through an absurd speech where he acted like Clementine was Steven Segal threatening their group), but I didn't actually empathize with him. In fact, I found him absurd, and I don't think that was Telltale's intention.
It's hard to care for characters when they seem completely hollow. And it's frankly even hard to care about Clementine when she exists in a complete vacuum with no other characters around that SHE seems to care about (Christa seems an afterthought, which is bizarre) and no other character seeming to care about her in return. People have said repeatedly that the most important thing in season one was that Clementine was safe; that it was really HER story, not Lee's, and that her safety was all we really cared about as an audience. But for me, season two has disproved this assumption. (The presence of someone like Lee, someone who is a smart, strong-willed individual with their own personal moral compass was very much absent throughout; it made me appreciate what a miraculously effective anchor Lee was throughout season one; his character was perfect.)
The reason we felt the importance of Clem's safety was because other characters did; there were repeated humane and relatable interactions that resonated with us. There were constantly other people that Clem bounced emotions off of which stirred OUR emotions.
If all that mattered was her safety, presumably the next four episodes of season two could have Clem safely reading a book in that house by herself, never getting a scratch on her, and people would be in tears at the end saying how great a season it was. (Although reading some comments, I get the feeling many people would be pleased with this.)
I wasn't kidding before when I said that the first episode of season two set nothing up. If we are to presumably care about any character besides Clementine, Telltale undermined their own goal. By starting everyone else off at below-average intelligence and working at odds against the one non-mentally-challenged character--it's like they're going to have to start completely from scratch in episode two. That's like an entire episode wasted. Compare this with season one when you could strongly feel the foundation being laid that would form our main rooting interests for the duration of the season.
So I played again. And about the motivation thing:
They are already discussing leaving the cabin. Some want, some don't. If you eavesdrop o… moren the kitchen for as long and as often as you can, you get some motivation from within the cabin-crew (pretty much like season one: "we're safe here" - "no we're not" - "where would we go" - "we find something"). Didn't try that the first time, since I didn't want to get caught. Turns out, you can't get caught.
Alright. Nicely written. Thanks for explaining your point further.
I don't feel as strongly, but that's quite alright. The thing about Christa, did bother me. I do agree on that (Clem seemingly not pushing for looking for Christa).
About the rest I'm still optimistic as I'm obviously not bothered by a lack of motivation for now. And we will see, how it turns out in future episodes.
Sorry for the long-winded response. I'm going to go off on a couple tangents...
Yes, those characters may have motivations, technically sp… moreeaking. For example, the pregnant woman is motivated by a fear that the baby will be okay and that her husband is the father. But these were all very low-level, barely felt things. I didn't feel those motivations as a player; I didn't relate to them. The people in the first season REALLY cared about things. You could palpably feel Lee's inner decency and desire to protect Clementine. You could palpably relate to Kenny's alpha-male like need to protect his family against Larry's ranting. You could feel all the different group dynamics of Larry being loud and Lilly being both loyal to him and apologetic about him at the same time. You could palpably feel their fear as they just tried to hang on in that drug store, and then their desperation as they were high-tailing it out of there. Even Carley's one… [view original content]
I disagree. You're confusing physical inaction with lack of motivation or wishes. Their goal (as impossible as it was) was to survive until … morethings got better. (That was their shared goal, but they were also fiercely motivated by personal ones; goals we could relate to.) And while we know now that that was impossible, they were still striving for something, for things to change and get better.
There was real energy in their interaction and in their (baseless) hope that things would change. Lee (and the audience through him) always very strongly felt a need to protect Clementine. That was his motivation. (By making Lee and Clem have real fears and wishes, it made us have them as well.) Clementine always had a pressing need to find her parents. Kenny had a pressing need to protect his family. These weren't just some blasé things that we're supposed to infer. There was actual emotion there.
Waiting was their "plan" in season one unti… [view original content]
Agreed; I would have liked to see something like this too. We actually do get to talk to most of the people in the house, but taking it out of the player's control and having them show up at the table in a predetermined order contributes to the quick feeling of the episode. Would have been cool if you could choose how to spend the morning and have the choice possibly have future effects (do you try to befriend a member of the household? Volunteer to help with chores in hope of ingratiating yourself? Snoop around some more and try to get more blackmail material on Rebecca?)
That actually is a legitimate complaint and one I hope they address in Episode 2. And there was a perfect opportunity to talk to the group on … moreyour own: just before Clem, Pete and Nick headed down to the river to fish, near the very end of the episode. They should have had a sequence in which Clem was allowed to walk around the house that morning, see what everyone was doing, and basically get to know people a bit better before they went fishing, in the same way Lee was allowed to walk around chatting to everyone before distributing food in Episode 2.
I'm curious; for the people who think the writing is poor, what about it don't you like? Any particular lines or conversations you thought played badly? I've seen a lot of general complaints, but few specifics. (It does rely a little too heavily on 'Clem drops something' as a catalyst for disaster, maybe. Water bottle, beans, bandages... the kid's a real butterfingers!)
Comments
I like the writing for the most part, especially the "Still. Not. Bitten" line. The only thing that really bothered me was the whole dog part but that was mostly just down to me always finding those kind of scenes too heartbreaking for me to handle and I did know there was no way they were going to let us have a dog. I did miss having Clementine give comments like Lee did, which stood out most when I was looking at things in the shed but she had a lot of dialogue moments to make up for it. It takes a bit to get use to less-emotional influenced voice but I do think it's better this way and it does shine through that it's a deliberate choice rather than a lack of talent on the actress' side.
The writing in season two is terrible and uninspired.
The start of season two was rubbish.. after falling down that river though, it starts to get good. It could have actually started from that before slowly revealing the past, making Omid's death less of a cop out.
The bandit (and she wasn't even a very good one) felt so forced, starting from dropping the water bottle. You also lacked control for quite a bit of time, I mean, compared to season 1's episode 1.
I thought the new group seemed to be a very unlikable bunch (especially compared to the people we know in 400 days or even season one). Sarah seems like a pretty interesting character but otherwise I was hoping there would be an option for Clementine to attempt to steal a map and be on her own way.
The dog scene? I was really hoping Clementine won't get an animal champion. I thought his behavior seemed natural (while making a point at how unpredictable animals can be) because I kept the beans for myself. Glad my jokes that we'll be playing as Sam in season three won't come to light.
So I played again. And about the motivation thing:
They are already discussing leaving the cabin. Some want, some don't. If you eavesdrop on the kitchen for as long and as often as you can, you get some motivation from within the cabin-crew (pretty much like season one: "we're safe here" - "no we're not" - "where would we go" - "we find something"). Didn't try that the first time, since I didn't want to get caught. Turns out, you can't get caught.
I love Season 2
Sorry for the long-winded response. I'm going to go off on a couple tangents...
Yes, those characters may have motivations, technically speaking. For example, the pregnant woman is motivated by a fear that the baby will be okay and that her husband is the father. But these were all very low-level, barely felt things. I didn't feel those motivations as a player; I didn't relate to them. The people in the first season REALLY cared about things. You could palpably feel Lee's inner decency and desire to protect Clementine. You could palpably relate to Kenny's alpha-male like need to protect his family against Larry's ranting. You could feel all the different group dynamics of Larry being loud and Lilly being both loyal to him and apologetic about him at the same time. You could palpably feel their fear as they just tried to hang on in that drug store, and then their desperation as they were high-tailing it out of there. Even Carley's one-off, heart-to-heart conversation with Lee in the drugstore office resonated.
The motivations of the second season characters are all like, "Yeah, whatever. Maybe we should leave. But whatever." Not only that, but unlike the people in season one, I didn't care about any of them. I didn't care about the health of the pregnant woman's baby. If I found out in episode two that she died between now and then, I'd shrug my shoulders. If I found out Luke had died choking on a piece of meat I'd say, "whatever." I didn't care whether Nick and Pete could finally see eye to eye, or that the spineless hen-pecked husband of the pregnant lady could stay on her good side. At all. I didn't relate to any of them since they all felt like mindless pawns in an "idiot plot", and their overall attitude was one of sheeple.
Yes, there was mention of physically propelling their bodies from point A to point B, but it doesn't feel very important, so unlike when the group were high-tailing it out of the drugstore protecting their loved ones last season. There was lipservice from Carlos about being concerned for his daughter (conveyed through an absurd speech where he acted like Clementine was Steven Segal threatening their group), but I didn't actually empathize with him. In fact, I found him absurd, and I don't think that was Telltale's intention.
It's hard to care for characters when they seem completely hollow. And it's frankly even hard to care about Clementine when she exists in a complete vacuum with no other characters around that SHE seems to care about (Christa seems an afterthought, which is bizarre) and no other character seeming to care about her in return. People have said repeatedly that the most important thing in season one was that Clementine was safe; that it was really HER story, not Lee's, and that her safety was all we really cared about as an audience. But for me, season two has disproved this assumption. (The presence of someone like Lee, someone who is a smart, strong-willed individual with their own personal moral compass was very much absent throughout; it made me appreciate what a miraculously effective anchor Lee was throughout season one; his character was perfect.)
The reason we felt the importance of Clem's safety was because other characters did; there were repeated humane and relatable interactions that resonated with us. There were constantly other people that Clem bounced emotions off of which stirred OUR emotions.
If all that mattered was her safety, presumably the next four episodes of season two could have Clem safely reading a book in that house by herself, never getting a scratch on her, and people would be in tears at the end saying how great a season it was. (Although reading some comments, I get the feeling many people would be pleased with this.)
I wasn't kidding before when I said that the first episode of season two set nothing up. If we are to presumably care about any character besides Clementine, Telltale undermined their own goal. By starting everyone else off at below-average intelligence and working at odds against the one non-mentally-challenged character--it's like they're going to have to start completely from scratch in episode two. That's like an entire episode wasted. Compare this with season one when you could strongly feel the foundation being laid that would form our main rooting interests for the duration of the season.
Alright. Nicely written. Thanks for explaining your point further.
I don't feel as strongly, but that's quite alright. The thing about Christa, did bother me. I do agree on that (Clem seemingly not pushing for looking for Christa).
About the rest I'm still optimistic as I'm obviously not bothered by a lack of motivation for now. And we will see, how it turns out in future episodes.
And That's your opinion
If anyone thinks the writing in Season 2 is bad then they are stupid.
The writing is really good
comment moved to another thread
Agreed; I would have liked to see something like this too. We actually do get to talk to most of the people in the house, but taking it out of the player's control and having them show up at the table in a predetermined order contributes to the quick feeling of the episode. Would have been cool if you could choose how to spend the morning and have the choice possibly have future effects (do you try to befriend a member of the household? Volunteer to help with chores in hope of ingratiating yourself? Snoop around some more and try to get more blackmail material on Rebecca?)
I loved both of those moments.
I'm curious; for the people who think the writing is poor, what about it don't you like? Any particular lines or conversations you thought played badly? I've seen a lot of general complaints, but few specifics. (It does rely a little too heavily on 'Clem drops something' as a catalyst for disaster, maybe. Water bottle, beans, bandages... the kid's a real butterfingers!)
TTG bases a lot of their writing on what people say they love or complain about. Complaining does as much for the story as giving homage does.