It's painful to love the episode so much and then go on the Telltale forums and see lots of complaints about it.
Welcome to the world of opinions, myself.
Knowing what she knows about bandits and dangerous survivors, I find it very immersion-breaking that she would let her guard down, even if there was no perceived threat. You don't need two hands to pick up a water bottle, and I just don't believe after all that time surviving, she'd be careless enough to set her weapon down without her attention focused on the exterior door.
My thought exactly. I can understand if people were disappointed with the first episode, but why are so many writing off the whole season already? And most of all, why are people measuring an introductory episode (S2:E1) against one of the most memorable and emotional stories/endings in the history of gaming (Season 1)? Of course it can't measure up to that. No single episode could.
Agreed. I love Ep1 of S1 now but back when I first played it it was probably my least or second to least favourite ep. It wasn't even bad at all, I just preferred the other eps
My thought exactly. I can understand if people were disappointed with the first episode, but why are so many writing off the whole season alre… moready? And most of all, why are people measuring an introductory episode (S2:E1) against one of the most memorable and emotional stories/endings in the history of gaming (Season 1)? Of course it can't measure up to that. No single episode could.
Why don't you give the players some room for exploration and a chance to get to know these characters a little bit better, instead of just pushing them from scene to scene so fast? Season 2 is way too hectic and action-driven. Season 1 was about characterization, relationships, moral, hope and survival. But now it's ONLY about survival at an uncomfortable speed. '
Why don't you give the players some room for exploration and a chance to get to know these characters a little bit better, instead of just pus… morehing them from scene to scene so fast? Season 2 is way too hectic and action-driven. Season 1 was about characterization, relationships, moral, hope and survival. But now it's ONLY about survival at an uncomfortable speed. '
This!^
Agreed. I love Ep1 of S1 now but back when I first played it it was probably my least or second to least favourite ep. It wasn't even bad at all, I just preferred the other eps
I definitely see where your criticisms of Clementine being unrealistically strong & "badass" are coming from. But as I see it, she has had a lot more experience in this type of thing that we haven’t been shown. As others have said, who knows what went down in that 16-month time skip? You can bet it wasn't pretty. Clementine is a smart and tough little girl; she’s learned a lot just in the three months she was with Lee. In my game she goes from being frozen at the sight of a walker 20 feet away to saving Molly with a headshot Lee couldn't even make! So her S2 behavior doesn't seem too exaggerated in context with what happens in the first season to me.
And about Clementine being sassy and deceitful, yes you can play her that way but it is an option, not a requirement. For example after the"Whose baby is it?" line to Rebecca you can follow it up with three options- 1. I won't tell, 2. Don't talk to me like that, 3. You should think about being nicer to me. So you can have her respond in an innocent way, in a take no crap way, or as a manipulative child terror right there. The parts where you have no choice and she is "badass" either way (sewing up her arm or fighting off attackers), yes, she is stronger and smarter now but it is a result of time and experience, and to me it made me proud; she learned from Lee's awesomeness :] TBH I would have been disappointed if she hadn't changed in that time, and it would have been a lot less realistic for her to be the same person as she was in the first season. The events around her have changed her, and to me the growth not only makes sense but also makes a more interesting story.
I agree that the story may seem "goalless" so far, without much exploration or choices that matter, and the stat choices at the end of the episode reflect that. But thinking about it, it seems most major choices are more about defining Clementine's character and less about branching storylines and moral decisions with direct consequences. For example, you choose whether or not to help Christa, but are chased either way; choose whether to kill or leave the dog, but it's dead either way; choose whether to give or deny the man water, but he seems to be dying either way as well. Since these choices seem to be more about the values of Clementine's character, it makes me wonder if that’s going to be the overarching theme of this season.
The main cast of characters does seem a bit weak so far, but I have my favorites and there is definitely potential for future episodes. I think the characters fall flat now because as I said before, we are too busy with establishing what kind of a person Clem has become.
Personally it is very interesting to see how she has grown from the first season. Yes, there is a dark side to her now, and sadly she can never get her innocence from Season 1 back. The way I play her she has her issues, but at heart she is still honest, kind, moral, and brave. She makes mistakes; after all she is human. I played Lee the same way, and that’s why S1 resonated so emotionally with me; my Lee wasn't perfect and didn't always do the right thing- he made mistakes but he kept trying. He redeemed himself in the end, and went out not just a badass but a hero. :']
TLDR; Yes, Clem is now much more capable but to me it made sense, after all who wouldn't be a badass with Lee as a mentor? :']]] To me it seems that S2 is starting out by concentrating on defining Clem as a character rather than introducing a strong cast or making big life & death decisions so I think we should give it time. Yes, Clem definitely has a dark side this time around- guilt, trust, morality etc, but it makes for a much more interesting story when the hero has their own inner demons to defeat, and all the more emotional in the end, whether or not they make it right. My Lee did, and I think my Clem will too.
Not a good comparison. A tip is technically not limited, a review is. Raising a review by a full 1 point out of ten is not the same as increasing a tip by 25 cents. Especially considering the current format of reviews, where a 5 or below is considered "broken" and the true scale for functional competent games is more from 5-10 with a 7.5 being mediocre or heavily flawed but with some positive aspects that bring it up to mediocre, when that is usually what a 5 would be on a true 1-10 scale. Maybe OP considers S2E1 more "good, not great" and less "average or slightly below it". On such a limited scale a 1 point increase is significant, or at least much moreso than some spare change added on to an amount with no restraints on it. Think of it like a test score - if you get a 70% on a test, and the teacher rethinks the grade and bumps it up to an 80%, are you going to say "Why did you even bother, its only 10 points anyways?" Probably not, it's the difference between a low C and a low B.
So, you're saying that the Gamespot review is harsh, but you are only willing to bump it up one arbitrary level?
That's like watching your friend tip $1, tell him he's not being generous enough, then tossing a quarter on the table.
Clementine is far more stronger and wiser now, but she is no way bad ass she is just trying to survive, everything she has learn from Lee, Christa and Omid to learn to survive, i think she is a brave and smart child . She is very much vulnerable she still needs a adult to protect her in the forest after the dog scene she would have died if she wasn't saved, when she is attack she is only defending herself like biting the bandit's hand trying to escape him, escaping walkers ect....all she is doing is protecting herself using self-dense to escape. The part where Clem had to stitch up her arm was very disturbing to watch she's one brave kid. I don't like the group she is with they should be more caring towards a 10 year old girl it feels like she is alone and no one to care for her which makes me sad.
I agree, season 1 is better but I don't really think Season 2 is bad. From what I've seen (just youtubers playing it) I have to agree Clem is … morefar more strong and "bad-ass" than what I expected, but I'd never say season 2 is "bad" it just changed a bit comparing to the first. oh well let's wait for season 3.
Of course Clem's different now. First, she's almost two years older, which is a pretty big deal at that age. Second, in S1, she was bright and resourceful, but still a sheltered kid. Even after the apocalypse, she still lived in relative stability. She had a place to live, a dedicated guardian, and a stable group of people watching out for her. She wasn't expected to defend herself or find her own food, so she could still afford to be a kid, albeit a kid in a traumatic situation. It was only in the last few days of season 1 (the last three episodes take place in the space of less than a week) that the group really started falling apart.
At this point, her situation is completely different. She's been roughing it for over a year with only one other person to watch her back, having to get her own food and worry about her own safety. She was forced to grow up in a way she never was in the first season. She's different, yeah, but it would be kind of unbelievable if she wasn't.
As for Clem being "badass", maybe we're looking at a couple of different possible meanings of 'badass'. I agree it'd be ridiculous to turn Clem into Rambo, hacking up walkers like it was nothing and stitching herself up without batting an eye. But that's not what I see here. She still mostly runs away from walkers, you only straight-up fight one, and that's in a room where you're surrounded by tools and weapons and even so it's a scramble. And as for stitching herself up -- it wasn't an easy or trivial thing for her to do. It was driven home to her that she didn't have anyone to take care of her. Nobody else was going to handle her wound. If she didn't do it herself, she would die. And so she forced herself to do it, because she had to. That's what makes her a badass, to me.
I also don't see how she's giving up her humanity by being a little manipulative. She's not actually hurting anyone, and if she doesn't get medical supplies she will literally die. Under the circumstances, making the puppy-dog eyes is forgivable, I think.
Where I agree with you -- The length, and the lack of free interaction with the new group. I have high hopes that both will be remedied in Episode 2, but we'll have to wait and see.
fully agree with Harry on this one.
Furthermore it seems advisable to hold on comparisons of character (and basically everything else) after the complete second season.
This episode serves as an introduction episode, personally I also didn't much care for the first episode in the first season, it's the second one that got me completely hooked (and still my favorite episode of the season).
I have the utmost faith in Telltale, and Clementine.
Of course Clem's different now. First, she's almost two years older, which is a pretty big deal at that age. Second, in S1, she was bright a… morend resourceful, but still a sheltered kid. Even after the apocalypse, she still lived in relative stability. She had a place to live, a dedicated guardian, and a stable group of people watching out for her. She wasn't expected to defend herself or find her own food, so she could still afford to be a kid, albeit a kid in a traumatic situation. It was only in the last few days of season 1 (the last three episodes take place in the space of less than a week) that the group really started falling apart.
At this point, her situation is completely different. She's been roughing it for over a year with only one other person to watch her back, having to get her own food and worry about her own safety. She was forced to grow up in a way she never was in the first season. She's different, yeah, but it wo… [view original content]
well heres my input. i grew up in poverty in most of my adolescent life. in elementary evryone around u all ur friends and whatnot are innocent. but just before we hit middle school, we started changing, getting into smoking dope, stealing, fighting, tagging, gang banging, hell by the end of the 8thgrade we werent the same and some of us went our seperate ways. its just fucking insane. the path of transformation a child embarks early on in life given certain condtions and influences and choices
It's the short period of time that bothers me. When you first met her as Lee she could barely hand him over that hammer while shaking like cra… morezy. In Season 1 she was pretty much the most kind and innocent thing that you can imagine. She couldn't even handle Lee swearing.
And she still seems to be like that in the intro of S2E1. She still can't swear (she says "shoot" instead of "shit") and as soon as the door of the ladies' room opens, she becomes scared and tries to hide instead of grabbing her gun.
But then - only 16 months later - she suddenly wins hand-to-fand fights against adult males, stitches up enormous wounds on her arm and blackmails other survivors... Sorry, but that's B movie niveau.
It's the short period of time that bothers me. When you first met her as Lee she could barely hand him over that hammer while shaking like cra… morezy. In Season 1 she was pretty much the most kind and innocent thing that you can imagine. She couldn't even handle Lee swearing.
And she still seems to be like that in the intro of S2E1. She still can't swear (she says "shoot" instead of "shit") and as soon as the door of the ladies' room opens, she becomes scared and tries to hide instead of grabbing her gun.
But then - only 16 months later - she suddenly wins hand-to-fand fights against adult males, stitches up enormous wounds on her arm and blackmails other survivors... Sorry, but that's B movie niveau.
It's the short period of time that bothers me. When you first met her as Lee she could barely hand him over that hammer while shaking like cra… morezy. In Season 1 she was pretty much the most kind and innocent thing that you can imagine. She couldn't even handle Lee swearing.
And she still seems to be like that in the intro of S2E1. She still can't swear (she says "shoot" instead of "shit") and as soon as the door of the ladies' room opens, she becomes scared and tries to hide instead of grabbing her gun.
But then - only 16 months later - she suddenly wins hand-to-fand fights against adult males, stitches up enormous wounds on her arm and blackmails other survivors... Sorry, but that's B movie niveau.
Comments
as long as this forum never turns into bioware's where it is hate for months on end. then we are good.
Agreed. It was all so unnecessary. Made people leave too
Knowing what she knows about bandits and dangerous survivors, I find it very immersion-breaking that she would let her guard down, even if there was no perceived threat. You don't need two hands to pick up a water bottle, and I just don't believe after all that time surviving, she'd be careless enough to set her weapon down without her attention focused on the exterior door.
Yup.
Rather compelling arguments you have there.
yup.
My thought exactly. I can understand if people were disappointed with the first episode, but why are so many writing off the whole season already? And most of all, why are people measuring an introductory episode (S2:E1) against one of the most memorable and emotional stories/endings in the history of gaming (Season 1)? Of course it can't measure up to that. No single episode could.
Agreed. I love Ep1 of S1 now but back when I first played it it was probably my least or second to least favourite ep. It wasn't even bad at all, I just preferred the other eps
Why don't you give the players some room for exploration and a chance to get to know these characters a little bit better, instead of just pushing them from scene to scene so fast? Season 2 is way too hectic and action-driven. Season 1 was about characterization, relationships, moral, hope and survival. But now it's ONLY about survival at an uncomfortable speed. '
This!^
Only Ep1. For all we know Ep2 could be the Drug Store ep of S2. It certainly looks like we'll be hanging out in the cabin lots more
I wish when Kenny comes back Clem can go to him and they can talk about some of the things they miss about Lee because they both cared about Lee
Thumbs down for expressing a non biased opinion. Golly it feels good to be popular
edit for typo's and wall of text
I definitely see where your criticisms of Clementine being unrealistically strong & "badass" are coming from. But as I see it, she has had a lot more experience in this type of thing that we haven’t been shown. As others have said, who knows what went down in that 16-month time skip? You can bet it wasn't pretty. Clementine is a smart and tough little girl; she’s learned a lot just in the three months she was with Lee. In my game she goes from being frozen at the sight of a walker 20 feet away to saving Molly with a headshot Lee couldn't even make! So her S2 behavior doesn't seem too exaggerated in context with what happens in the first season to me.
And about Clementine being sassy and deceitful, yes you can play her that way but it is an option, not a requirement. For example after the"Whose baby is it?" line to Rebecca you can follow it up with three options- 1. I won't tell, 2. Don't talk to me like that, 3. You should think about being nicer to me. So you can have her respond in an innocent way, in a take no crap way, or as a manipulative child terror right there. The parts where you have no choice and she is "badass" either way (sewing up her arm or fighting off attackers), yes, she is stronger and smarter now but it is a result of time and experience, and to me it made me proud; she learned from Lee's awesomeness :] TBH I would have been disappointed if she hadn't changed in that time, and it would have been a lot less realistic for her to be the same person as she was in the first season. The events around her have changed her, and to me the growth not only makes sense but also makes a more interesting story.
I agree that the story may seem "goalless" so far, without much exploration or choices that matter, and the stat choices at the end of the episode reflect that. But thinking about it, it seems most major choices are more about defining Clementine's character and less about branching storylines and moral decisions with direct consequences. For example, you choose whether or not to help Christa, but are chased either way; choose whether to kill or leave the dog, but it's dead either way; choose whether to give or deny the man water, but he seems to be dying either way as well. Since these choices seem to be more about the values of Clementine's character, it makes me wonder if that’s going to be the overarching theme of this season.
The main cast of characters does seem a bit weak so far, but I have my favorites and there is definitely potential for future episodes. I think the characters fall flat now because as I said before, we are too busy with establishing what kind of a person Clem has become.
Personally it is very interesting to see how she has grown from the first season. Yes, there is a dark side to her now, and sadly she can never get her innocence from Season 1 back. The way I play her she has her issues, but at heart she is still honest, kind, moral, and brave. She makes mistakes; after all she is human. I played Lee the same way, and that’s why S1 resonated so emotionally with me; my Lee wasn't perfect and didn't always do the right thing- he made mistakes but he kept trying. He redeemed himself in the end, and went out not just a badass but a hero. :']
TLDR; Yes, Clem is now much more capable but to me it made sense, after all who wouldn't be a badass with Lee as a mentor? :']]] To me it seems that S2 is starting out by concentrating on defining Clem as a character rather than introducing a strong cast or making big life & death decisions so I think we should give it time. Yes, Clem definitely has a dark side this time around- guilt, trust, morality etc, but it makes for a much more interesting story when the hero has their own inner demons to defeat, and all the more emotional in the end, whether or not they make it right. My Lee did, and I think my Clem will too.
Not a good comparison. A tip is technically not limited, a review is. Raising a review by a full 1 point out of ten is not the same as increasing a tip by 25 cents. Especially considering the current format of reviews, where a 5 or below is considered "broken" and the true scale for functional competent games is more from 5-10 with a 7.5 being mediocre or heavily flawed but with some positive aspects that bring it up to mediocre, when that is usually what a 5 would be on a true 1-10 scale. Maybe OP considers S2E1 more "good, not great" and less "average or slightly below it". On such a limited scale a 1 point increase is significant, or at least much moreso than some spare change added on to an amount with no restraints on it. Think of it like a test score - if you get a 70% on a test, and the teacher rethinks the grade and bumps it up to an 80%, are you going to say "Why did you even bother, its only 10 points anyways?" Probably not, it's the difference between a low C and a low B.
Clementine is far more stronger and wiser now, but she is no way bad ass she is just trying to survive, everything she has learn from Lee, Christa and Omid to learn to survive, i think she is a brave and smart child . She is very much vulnerable she still needs a adult to protect her in the forest after the dog scene she would have died if she wasn't saved, when she is attack she is only defending herself like biting the bandit's hand trying to escape him, escaping walkers ect....all she is doing is protecting herself using self-dense to escape. The part where Clem had to stitch up her arm was very disturbing to watch she's one brave kid. I don't like the group she is with they should be more caring towards a 10 year old girl it feels like she is alone and no one to care for her which makes me sad.
Of course Clem's different now. First, she's almost two years older, which is a pretty big deal at that age. Second, in S1, she was bright and resourceful, but still a sheltered kid. Even after the apocalypse, she still lived in relative stability. She had a place to live, a dedicated guardian, and a stable group of people watching out for her. She wasn't expected to defend herself or find her own food, so she could still afford to be a kid, albeit a kid in a traumatic situation. It was only in the last few days of season 1 (the last three episodes take place in the space of less than a week) that the group really started falling apart.
At this point, her situation is completely different. She's been roughing it for over a year with only one other person to watch her back, having to get her own food and worry about her own safety. She was forced to grow up in a way she never was in the first season. She's different, yeah, but it would be kind of unbelievable if she wasn't.
As for Clem being "badass", maybe we're looking at a couple of different possible meanings of 'badass'. I agree it'd be ridiculous to turn Clem into Rambo, hacking up walkers like it was nothing and stitching herself up without batting an eye. But that's not what I see here. She still mostly runs away from walkers, you only straight-up fight one, and that's in a room where you're surrounded by tools and weapons and even so it's a scramble. And as for stitching herself up -- it wasn't an easy or trivial thing for her to do. It was driven home to her that she didn't have anyone to take care of her. Nobody else was going to handle her wound. If she didn't do it herself, she would die. And so she forced herself to do it, because she had to. That's what makes her a badass, to me.
I also don't see how she's giving up her humanity by being a little manipulative. She's not actually hurting anyone, and if she doesn't get medical supplies she will literally die. Under the circumstances, making the puppy-dog eyes is forgivable, I think.
Where I agree with you -- The length, and the lack of free interaction with the new group. I have high hopes that both will be remedied in Episode 2, but we'll have to wait and see.
fully agree with Harry on this one.
Furthermore it seems advisable to hold on comparisons of character (and basically everything else) after the complete second season.
This episode serves as an introduction episode, personally I also didn't much care for the first episode in the first season, it's the second one that got me completely hooked (and still my favorite episode of the season).
I have the utmost faith in Telltale, and Clementine.
well heres my input. i grew up in poverty in most of my adolescent life. in elementary evryone around u all ur friends and whatnot are innocent. but just before we hit middle school, we started changing, getting into smoking dope, stealing, fighting, tagging, gang banging, hell by the end of the 8thgrade we werent the same and some of us went our seperate ways. its just fucking insane. the path of transformation a child embarks early on in life given certain condtions and influences and choices
to your second problem she does swear if you tell its call shit in season 1 ep 1 in the barn.
to your second problem she does swear if you tell its call shit in season 1 ep 1 in the barn.