Larry was already a walking bomb, and the St. John's were the match. Kenny just put out the flames from the explosion, so-to-speak. And Carley… more wasn't there when Larry died, kept the group safe, did what she was told, etc. Lilly had no reason to shoot Carley except for her own problems, which made her unfit as leader to begin with. People blame Ben, people blame Lee, people blame Clem, people blame Duck, meh, I blame Lilly as I've said before for people's deaths, but what can ya do? I say let by-gone's be by-gone's unless/until Kenny or Lilly show up again. Just how I feel.
no, Larry did come back, he takes a breathe and opens his eyes if you CPR fast enough, walkers dont breathe, and him coming back means he wouldn't become a walker either.
Kenny was indirectly guilty, but I don't think it was just because he couldn't drive well or he said "What the fuck is the problem.". It's by killing Larry that he got her killed, which basically led to every bad thing the group ecountered next. Kenny shoulda've waited before dropping the salt lick, and see if he could be reanimated. If he had, if Larry survived, they woulda've escaped, and if he turned zombie and Kenny killed him, Lilly wouldn't perhaps hold a grudge against him, as he had a reason. Plus, Ben shoulda've told the group what he was doing. I'm sure that everyone understood that Ben was buying Kenny time to repair the RV. Then plan to gather all their supplies on the RV and hit the road calmly. If this things had happen, most of the people we love could still be alive.
No, the blames misdirected, those bandits were going to attack either way, it was a buried tank-shell, because they had ran out of medicine, if it wasnt then it was the next time.
Well, like it or not Ben still is the one to blame for what happened at the motor inn. Now granted, Ben wasn't in a position to refuse the ban… moredits, but he could at least warn the group about it,thus giving them time to prepare in case the bandits decide to attack.
That's stupid. Lilly didn't lose her shit because Kenny didn't vote. Lilly lost her shit because her father died and everyone (except maybe Lee) was against her.
Ben tried to save the group, and for awhile managed to, they scrounged up more medical supplies to meet the dwindling amount Ben was taking out of the equation, it worked for a long time, they only survived for so long without the Bandits attacking, murdering, ... raping, ETC because of Bens deal, despite what people say about its outcome, it was a farcry from what would've happened if the bandits attacked normally, seeing as they managed to Sneak up and take EVERYONE hostage.
Someone could say 'Ben was on watch.' But Ben wasn't the only one being held captive was he?
Well, put it this way: Ben doesn't do the deal with the bandits, bandits don't attack, Duck doesn't get bitten,Carley/Doug doesn't die. So i t… morehink it's safe to assume Ben triggered these events unwillingly. Now to answer your question, i think Lily wouldn't leave until someone was "punished" whether or not Kenny had a say in it.
Oh, the worst kind of thread for me, should I agree and start hating on the Kenny fanboys, or disagree and hate on Carley fanboys? Its too muc… moreh for me.
Well, anyway, in terms of fault, if it was Carley on the road, then fault lies with 1. Lilly, 2. Ben, 3. Carley (for her goading Lilly a bit) and lastly Kenny.
If it was Doug, then 1. Doug (for saving Ben ) 2. Ben (for having Doug save him) 3. Lilly and again, lastly Kenny
Carley didnt deserve it, but she pretty much 'asked' Lily to kill her, by getting in her face like that and not staying calm, from lilys point of view she was guilty, don't blame Ben for carleys stupid mistake, she tried to save Ben but ultimately she made Lily lose her temper which caused her death, and if your going to blame anyone but Lily for her death, it could just as easily be deemed as HER fault with as much justification as Ben.
Kenny was the only one handling the situation right. He was dealing with the problem at hand. A zombie stuck under the wheel. All the other morons were just standing about yelling at eachother and attracting zombies. Kenny was the only one acting like a grown up.
We could go on about "what if's" for hours and get nowhere. Now, i'm not hating,nor am i bashing Ben. I have just responded to the OP question, which in that particular scenario, Ben is to blame no matter how you put it. As i said before, a lot of us(including me) sympathize with him simply because we could be like him in the ZA. Does that change the fact that even when he tried to help things didn't end up well for the group? No, it does not.
Ben tried to save the group, and for awhile managed to, they scrounged up more medical supplies to meet the dwindling amount Ben was taking ou… moret of the equation, it worked for a long time, they only survived for so long without the Bandits attacking, murdering, ... raping, ETC because of Bens deal, despite what people say about its outcome, it was a farcry from what would've happened if the bandits attacked normally, seeing as they managed to Sneak up and take EVERYONE hostage.
Someone could say 'Ben was on watch.' But Ben wasn't the only one being held captive was he?
No one can really be blamed but Lily for being the one to pull the trigger.
I can't even blame Ben for anything but giving the bandits medicine without asking the leaders of the group and letting his guilt control him.
Carley didnt deserve it, but she pretty much 'asked' Lily to kill her, by getting in her face like that and not staying calm, from lilys point… more of view she was guilty, don't blame Ben for carleys stupid mistake, she tried to save Ben but ultimately she made Lily lose her temper which caused her death, and if your going to blame anyone but Lily for her death, it could just as easily be deemed as HER fault with as much justification as Ben.
Whatever, I never really liked Lilly because as soon as you meet her she's trying to kick you out, and she just generally seems like a mean, negative person.
...
And I also don't think that Ben is responsible for Katjaa's death.
In the same way it can be argued that Katjaa's death is still her fault, as she chose to commit suicide, so Ben wasn't responsible.
If I wa… mores in the position where I thought everyone in the group hated me and were plotting behind my back, and then Carley insulted me and basically said I had done a shit job, I would probably snap. I wouldn't shoot her, no, but then again my dad hasn't been murdered.
Whatever, I never really liked Lilly because as soon as you meet her she's trying to kick you out, and she just generally seems like a mean, negative person.
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And I also don't think that Ben is responsible for Katjaa's death.
No, she argues with Larry about killing Duck, not throwing them out.
Also, my main reason for not liking Lilly is that even if you support her entirely, she still throws you under the bus when she kills Carely, telling everyone about your past, and then if you say you want to leave with her, she just leaves you behind anyway.
And it's still entirely her fault that Carely died, no one elses.
No, she argues with Larry about killing Duck, not throwing them out.
Also, my main reason for not liking Lilly is that even if you support he… morer entirely, she still throws you under the bus when she kills Carely, telling everyone about your past, and then if you say you want to leave with her, she just leaves you behind anyway.
And it's still entirely her fault that Carely died, no one elses.
Katjaa died because she committed suicide, Duck's death is because of the bandits.
And Carely died because Lilly murdered her.
I'm really not sure there's that much more to it.
Yes, there were reasons for why Lilly killed Carely, not many, and not good reasons, but there were.
Still, it's not Kenny's fault.
Lilly killed Carley, there were reasons for why she did it, she didn't just randomly decide to shoot her, but regardless, the blame of Carley's murder falls to Lilly, and her alone.
Lilly murdered her because her mental state had been pushed to breaking point by both Kenny and,to a lesser extent, Carley.
Saying Carley d… moreied just because Lilly murdered her is like saying Duck died because a walker bit him. You miss the big picture that way.
Wouldn't the bandits still attack the motor inn regardless? yeah they would leave them alone for a while and an attack would happen sooner or later. Also if they didn't attack, Lily is unstable- I think she would snap sooner or later. That or she would just leave the group.
Well, put it this way: Ben doesn't do the deal with the bandits, bandits don't attack, Duck doesn't get bitten,Carley/Doug doesn't die. So i t… morehink it's safe to assume Ben triggered these events unwillingly. Now to answer your question, i think Lily wouldn't leave until someone was "punished" whether or not Kenny had a say in it.
And if he was? Firstly, the man was a d*ck to the others, and was a liability more than helpful(going from that POV). Also, IF he survived the heart attack, he would be in no condition to go anywhere, at least not on his own. The guy weighed over 300 pounds, so who was going to move him? Also, they had no medication for him to use, since the St. John's searched them clean. Also, the same St. John's were coming to kill the group; there was no time to waste. Had they wasted the time to save Larry, either the St. John's would have killed Clementine as she came through the vent, or they would have never gotten the vent off to begin with because you definitely weren't going into Larry's pockets then. IF the group somehow escaped the meat locker, Katjaa or Duck might have been killed already(most likely Duck, since they needed Kat). Or the walkers would have come through the fence before the group was ready to go. Larry simply wasn't getting out of there, and if they had tried, they could have easily traded Larry for Lee, or Kenny, or someone else's life.
Larry was a time bomb. Try as long as you like, but a bomb always has a risk of being set off, and you don't want it to happen while others are near.
Did I say she should? Doesn't mean for Lilly to get 'revenge' on someone, especially if she doesn't have the proof. Then you're just waving the gun around. She was the leader, and a leader spitting out accusations at a time of stress wasn't a good time. Carley/Doug gets caught in the middle of the dispute, and pay for Lilly's pulling of the trigger. She could get depressed, or angry, or whatever she was feeling, but if it gets in the way of her leading, then she should have stepped down, even if temporary. If she couldn't trust anyone, then why exactly was she in the group? She could leave.
I cannot say Kenny/Lee were in the right, but in the apocalypse, no one said the 'right thing' was the best thing. They played it safe. Lilly didn't do the right thing, and got nothing out of it except spread bloodshed.
Lilly kinda just goes with it, though. Trying to justify it? Kenny had a purpose to kill, at least. Lilly just takes a healthy, innocent life regardless on whom you chose. I wonder if people would have gotten madder if Kenny was the one shot and killed, considering his fanbase and that he had a family to care for, and his relationship with Lee. Would've been interesting, at the least.
Agreed completely. You can even blame Carley for her own death (as much as it pains me to say - I liked her!) indirectly - she shouldn't have … morebeen sassing a woman clearly on edge who was also carrying a gun. They needed to try talking down Lily - she was WAY too emotional after what happened with her dad. Carley was stuck in a case of "you mess with the bull, you get the horns" and this particular argument with Lily got her killed. She wasn't wrong for standing up for herself, but going up against an emotionally unstable person who already doesn't like you WITH A GUN is a bad move. It was definitely also Ben's fault for not saying anything (but he would have probably gotten killed and he saw this, so he kept quiet), which in turn also gets Doug killed.
Of course they would still attack, it was stated at the end of episode 2 that as long as the bandits get food from the diary,they have nothing to worry about. Now, the op is asking whose blame is it that Doug/Carley end up shot by Lily. And the answer is Ben.
Wouldn't the bandits still attack the motor inn regardless? yeah they would leave them alone for a while and an attack would happen sooner or … morelater. Also if they didn't attack, Lily is unstable- I think she would snap sooner or later. That or she would just leave the group.
If Larry had lived, Carley would've too, Duck and Katjaa wouldn't have got bitten, charles wouldn't have had to die to save Clem, really, everything would've been better with just another set of hands, assuming he didn't get shot while selflessly albeit rashly resisting the initial bandit attack.
And if he was? Firstly, the man was a d*ck to the others, and was a liability more than helpful(going from that POV). Also, IF he survived the… more heart attack, he would be in no condition to go anywhere, at least not on his own. The guy weighed over 300 pounds, so who was going to move him? Also, they had no medication for him to use, since the St. John's searched them clean. Also, the same St. John's were coming to kill the group; there was no time to waste. Had they wasted the time to save Larry, either the St. John's would have killed Clementine as she came through the vent, or they would have never gotten the vent off to begin with because you definitely weren't going into Larry's pockets then. IF the group somehow escaped the meat locker, Katjaa or Duck might have been killed already(most likely Duck, since they needed Kat). Or the walkers would have come through the fence before the group was ready to go. Larry simply wasn't getting out of the… [view original content]
Not really dude, Kenny had his own problems, Duck was bit, remember. I think Kenny had more on his mind than ANOTHER argument involving Lily.
Don't see how you could blame Kenny.
You could maybe put some of it on Ben for not speaking up, but then Lilly's pretty gorked, I wouldn't admit I'd been fucking the group to her either.
Kenny was the only one handling the situation right. He was dealing with the problem at hand. A zombie stuck under the wheel. All the other mo… morerons were just standing about yelling at eachother and attracting zombies. Kenny was the only one acting like a grown up.
God dammit, don't you see it? It was DUCKS fault! He started everything! Bandit's wouldn't attack, they would take supplies and go. Lee took s… moreupplies before they did it. Alone, he'd NEVER find it! Too URBAN. It was DUCK who helped him, gave clues, duck and his super detective skills. DUCK is responsible for all mess, Lilly's madness, Carley's death and everything what happened after.
I don't think it was his fault at all. Lily Ian's Ben are the only ones to blame, Ben refused to confess and Lily was the one that let her paranoia take over and pulled the trigger.
However, I think if Kenny had voted he may have calmed the situation a little bit, but it is still not his fault
It's not like Carley knew Lilly was psycho enough to shoot her, they'd been in the same group for months. If she knew how dangerous Lilly was I bet you she wouldn't have said anything. I pity Lilly but it takes a special kind of person to shoot someone in the back because their feelings are hurt.
I even let Lilly back on the RV out of pity, but YOU and only YOU are the person responsible for your actions.
At the end of the day, you can't blame anyone for what YOU did, but YOU. Unless you're a moral coward.
You fuck up, you own it, at least adults do.
Lilly actions are entirely her own. Everyone has reasons to do fucked up shit. Some people give in to rage, or hate or simple ennui, others don't,
But when you fuck up, it's no ones fault but your own.
Agreed completely. You can even blame Carley for her own death (as much as it pains me to say - I liked her!) indirectly - she shouldn't have … morebeen sassing a woman clearly on edge who was also carrying a gun. They needed to try talking down Lily - she was WAY too emotional after what happened with her dad. Carley was stuck in a case of "you mess with the bull, you get the horns" and this particular argument with Lily got her killed. She wasn't wrong for standing up for herself, but going up against an emotionally unstable person who already doesn't like you WITH A GUN is a bad move. It was definitely also Ben's fault for not saying anything (but he would have probably gotten killed and he saw this, so he kept quiet), which in turn also gets Doug killed.
Not trying to be rude in anyway but every time I see someone talking shit about Kenny you come in a start shit talking the person that was talking shit about Kenny. Do you ever defend any other character other than Kenny? I have nothing against Kenny but lets face it he isn't the best character ever, in fact no character is the best. I know this will get like 1000 dislikes but I am just pointing that out.
Yes, there were reasons for why Lilly killed Carely, not many, and not good reasons, but there were.
Still, it's not Kenny's fault.
Lilly … morekilled Carley, there were reasons for why she did it, she didn't just randomly decide to shoot her, but regardless, the blame of Carley's murder falls to Lilly, and her alone.
Comments
Your point is made invalid by Larry taking a breathe from the CPR you use on him, he was saveable.
no, Larry did come back, he takes a breathe and opens his eyes if you CPR fast enough, walkers dont breathe, and him coming back means he wouldn't become a walker either.
Kenny was indirectly guilty, but I don't think it was just because he couldn't drive well or he said "What the fuck is the problem.". It's by killing Larry that he got her killed, which basically led to every bad thing the group ecountered next. Kenny shoulda've waited before dropping the salt lick, and see if he could be reanimated. If he had, if Larry survived, they woulda've escaped, and if he turned zombie and Kenny killed him, Lilly wouldn't perhaps hold a grudge against him, as he had a reason. Plus, Ben shoulda've told the group what he was doing. I'm sure that everyone understood that Ben was buying Kenny time to repair the RV. Then plan to gather all their supplies on the RV and hit the road calmly. If this things had happen, most of the people we love could still be alive.
No, the blames misdirected, those bandits were going to attack either way, it was a buried tank-shell, because they had ran out of medicine, if it wasnt then it was the next time.
That's stupid. Lilly didn't lose her shit because Kenny didn't vote. Lilly lost her shit because her father died and everyone (except maybe Lee) was against her.
Ben tried to save the group, and for awhile managed to, they scrounged up more medical supplies to meet the dwindling amount Ben was taking out of the equation, it worked for a long time, they only survived for so long without the Bandits attacking, murdering, ... raping, ETC because of Bens deal, despite what people say about its outcome, it was a farcry from what would've happened if the bandits attacked normally, seeing as they managed to Sneak up and take EVERYONE hostage.
Someone could say 'Ben was on watch.' But Ben wasn't the only one being held captive was he?
Just dont default to hating Ben fanboys, we are a proud but obscure people.
Carley didnt deserve it, but she pretty much 'asked' Lily to kill her, by getting in her face like that and not staying calm, from lilys point of view she was guilty, don't blame Ben for carleys stupid mistake, she tried to save Ben but ultimately she made Lily lose her temper which caused her death, and if your going to blame anyone but Lily for her death, it could just as easily be deemed as HER fault with as much justification as Ben.
no if clem just watched lee die flabbergasted maybe
both lilly & kenny are a douche to each other anyway,if only there's a chance to form a Leeranny to keep them in line
Kenny was the only one handling the situation right. He was dealing with the problem at hand. A zombie stuck under the wheel. All the other morons were just standing about yelling at eachother and attracting zombies. Kenny was the only one acting like a grown up.
We could go on about "what if's" for hours and get nowhere. Now, i'm not hating,nor am i bashing Ben. I have just responded to the OP question, which in that particular scenario, Ben is to blame no matter how you put it. As i said before, a lot of us(including me) sympathize with him simply because we could be like him in the ZA. Does that change the fact that even when he tried to help things didn't end up well for the group? No, it does not.
But Kenny wasn't a stranger, and he betrayed her trust (regardless of whether he was right to do so).
Thus, after episode 2, she began to trust her actual group less.
Well if Ben had confessed to the crime Carley probably wouldn't have died. Doug still would have though.
no he wasnt, most people killed themselves (Carley, Katjaa, Kenny, Himself.)
People might be assholes, yes, Carley crossed the line by confronting Lilly with her dad, but she didn't deserve a bullet to the brain!!!
Whatever, I never really liked Lilly because as soon as you meet her she's trying to kick you out, and she just generally seems like a mean, negative person.
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And I also don't think that Ben is responsible for Katjaa's death.
Rewatch the scene and you'll see she rethinks and says that they shouldn't throw you out. She argues with Larry.
No, she argues with Larry about killing Duck, not throwing them out.
Also, my main reason for not liking Lilly is that even if you support her entirely, she still throws you under the bus when she kills Carely, telling everyone about your past, and then if you say you want to leave with her, she just leaves you behind anyway.
And it's still entirely her fault that Carely died, no one elses.
Yes, Carley's death is entirely her fault in the same way that Katjaa's and Duck's death are their fault, not Ben's.
Katjaa died because she committed suicide, Duck's death is because of the bandits.
And Carely died because Lilly murdered her.
I'm really not sure there's that much more to it.
Lilly murdered her because her mental state had been pushed to breaking point by both Kenny and,to a lesser extent, Carley.
Saying Carley died just because Lilly murdered her is like saying Duck died because a walker bit him. You miss the big picture that way.
Yes, there were reasons for why Lilly killed Carely, not many, and not good reasons, but there were.
Still, it's not Kenny's fault.
Lilly killed Carley, there were reasons for why she did it, she didn't just randomly decide to shoot her, but regardless, the blame of Carley's murder falls to Lilly, and her alone.
Wouldn't the bandits still attack the motor inn regardless? yeah they would leave them alone for a while and an attack would happen sooner or later. Also if they didn't attack, Lily is unstable- I think she would snap sooner or later. That or she would just leave the group.
And if he was? Firstly, the man was a d*ck to the others, and was a liability more than helpful(going from that POV). Also, IF he survived the heart attack, he would be in no condition to go anywhere, at least not on his own. The guy weighed over 300 pounds, so who was going to move him? Also, they had no medication for him to use, since the St. John's searched them clean. Also, the same St. John's were coming to kill the group; there was no time to waste. Had they wasted the time to save Larry, either the St. John's would have killed Clementine as she came through the vent, or they would have never gotten the vent off to begin with because you definitely weren't going into Larry's pockets then. IF the group somehow escaped the meat locker, Katjaa or Duck might have been killed already(most likely Duck, since they needed Kat). Or the walkers would have come through the fence before the group was ready to go. Larry simply wasn't getting out of there, and if they had tried, they could have easily traded Larry for Lee, or Kenny, or someone else's life.
Larry was a time bomb. Try as long as you like, but a bomb always has a risk of being set off, and you don't want it to happen while others are near.
Did I say she should? Doesn't mean for Lilly to get 'revenge' on someone, especially if she doesn't have the proof. Then you're just waving the gun around. She was the leader, and a leader spitting out accusations at a time of stress wasn't a good time. Carley/Doug gets caught in the middle of the dispute, and pay for Lilly's pulling of the trigger. She could get depressed, or angry, or whatever she was feeling, but if it gets in the way of her leading, then she should have stepped down, even if temporary. If she couldn't trust anyone, then why exactly was she in the group? She could leave.
I cannot say Kenny/Lee were in the right, but in the apocalypse, no one said the 'right thing' was the best thing. They played it safe. Lilly didn't do the right thing, and got nothing out of it except spread bloodshed.
Lilly kinda just goes with it, though. Trying to justify it? Kenny had a purpose to kill, at least. Lilly just takes a healthy, innocent life regardless on whom you chose. I wonder if people would have gotten madder if Kenny was the one shot and killed, considering his fanbase and that he had a family to care for, and his relationship with Lee. Would've been interesting, at the least.
Of course they would still attack, it was stated at the end of episode 2 that as long as the bandits get food from the diary,they have nothing to worry about. Now, the op is asking whose blame is it that Doug/Carley end up shot by Lily. And the answer is Ben.
That's like... Ben's Theme Music. Kenny has that Pendulum song, Ben has this.
i dont like Kenny but nope he does not responsible to carley death
If Larry had lived, Carley would've too, Duck and Katjaa wouldn't have got bitten, charles wouldn't have had to die to save Clem, really, everything would've been better with just another set of hands, assuming he didn't get shot while selflessly albeit rashly resisting the initial bandit attack.
Not really dude, Kenny had his own problems, Duck was bit, remember. I think Kenny had more on his mind than ANOTHER argument involving Lily.
Don't see how you could blame Kenny.
You could maybe put some of it on Ben for not speaking up, but then Lilly's pretty gorked, I wouldn't admit I'd been fucking the group to her either.
True this
And that's without even mentioning Duck gave the St John's their first BBQ cookbook.
And he fixed their saw.
Duck is a 3 foot Nate
I don't think it was his fault at all. Lily Ian's Ben are the only ones to blame, Ben refused to confess and Lily was the one that let her paranoia take over and pulled the trigger.
However, I think if Kenny had voted he may have calmed the situation a little bit, but it is still not his fault
It's not like Carley knew Lilly was psycho enough to shoot her, they'd been in the same group for months. If she knew how dangerous Lilly was I bet you she wouldn't have said anything. I pity Lilly but it takes a special kind of person to shoot someone in the back because their feelings are hurt.
I even let Lilly back on the RV out of pity, but YOU and only YOU are the person responsible for your actions.
At the end of the day, you can't blame anyone for what YOU did, but YOU. Unless you're a moral coward.
You fuck up, you own it, at least adults do.
Lilly actions are entirely her own. Everyone has reasons to do fucked up shit. Some people give in to rage, or hate or simple ennui, others don't,
But when you fuck up, it's no ones fault but your own.
You get downvotes, mostly cause you say that
Completely Ben fault everything is
Not trying to be rude in anyway but every time I see someone talking shit about Kenny you come in a start shit talking the person that was talking shit about Kenny. Do you ever defend any other character other than Kenny? I have nothing against Kenny but lets face it he isn't the best character ever, in fact no character is the best. I know this will get like 1000 dislikes but I am just pointing that out.