I will actually be happy if it is Lily or Kenny because I thought it was brave to kill Carley in front of the whole group but it's a zombie apocalypse, what do I know, Lily would make the most sense...
I'd rather any interesting characters come back than be killed already. I think she showed remorse in Doug's. Carley's I'm not sure about as I haven't played through fully with her yet. It's wrong what she said about Carley but hopefully she didn't mean a word of it. If she does and she comes back, given the options I'd forgive her in Doug's playthrough and not forgive her in Carley's.
Yes, no remorse. After she shot Carley, what was the first thing she did? Say how sorry she was? No, she said that Carley DESERVED it, and tha… moret she didn't do anything wrong. At the last second, she betrayed Lee to try and save herself.
I sincerely hope that she died.
That being said, in the matter of choice, you're partially right. Clem should have the choice to forgive Lilly. Personally, I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive her, but it should be an option.
Wait... You think that Lilly murdering Carley in cold blood for no reason was Bravery?
...
I can only assume you have no soul. Or at the very least the comprehension of the difference between MURDER and BRAVERY.
But at that point, she was pointing fingers and considered her word of mouth as evidence. She had no proof yet already decided Ben deserved a death penalty.
Wrong: She narrowed it down to Ben (which she turns out to be right) and was using rational logic; Kenny and Katjaa wouldn't do it, especiall… morey since Kenny argue about moving away and she knows his family isn't one to be negotiating with bandits. Doug wouldn't do such a thing unless a fellow group member was in danger. Ben was the only one who made logical sense. She handled the situation poorly, which ended with Doug dead, but she knew who she was accusing.
IIRC, it was a 45/55 split. Meaning that for a little less than half the gamers out there, Clem never saw Lilly steal the RV. That's a significant portion of people who played the game.
58% took Lilly with them. In most gameplays, Clem witnessed her betrayal, killing Carley/Doug is already bad enough and then she sees another reason why Lilly is bad.
From her conversation with Luke in the first episode of Season 2. She expresses guilt that her past mistakes have gotten good people killed. If Lilly comes back and expresses a similar sentiment, I think it'll resonate with Clem. Yes, there are differences in the scenarios. I'm not saying that they're exactly the same and I'm not saying that Clem thinks they are exactly the same. All I'm saying is that the amount of guilt that Clem feels for what she did will make her more empathetic to a similarly guilt-ridden Lilly.
I'm sure when the Stranger grabbed her, she knew she messed up, Lilly on the other hand didn't and tried justifying it afterwards. Her mistake was trusting the Stranger to help find her parents and she didn't think she was putting people at risk and later lose their lives, I wouldn't call Lilly's action a mistake since she doesn't see it that way, she didn't need to do it in the first place and she knew what she was doing when she aimed her gun at someone and pulled the trigger. So what you're saying is that if you make a bad decision that cost someone their life, you should sympathize with a unremorseful cold blooded killer because after all, you did something similar?
You don't think he would have killed Ben or left him behind if he had the chance? Back in the attic, Kenny himself says that he was glad that Lee was the one who made the decision and not him, implying that he would have dropped Ben. And I don't know about you, someone gloating right in front of me about seeing someone I care about die is nearly as despicable to me as someone who caused the death themselves.
Could've, would've, at the end of the game, no matter what choice you make, Kenny never kills Ben or has anything to do with it and doesn't kick him out, the guy even put it up to a vote whether to kick Ben out instead of making the decision as if he's in charge. And being glad that someone that caused the death of your family is dead is just as bad as someone killing an innocent person for no reason?
I never said it was likely. But a lot can happen over 16 months. People change. Sure, people who took her along to give her another chance and were again burned by her have reason to not forgive her. But for those who left her on the side of the road, Lilly still hasn't used up her second chance yet.
Once you commit an evil deed, there's no turning back as we saw from Shane(TV series). No matter what choice you make with her, Lilly should be grateful that you didn't kill her for what she's done.
They need to have plans for them being bad all along to make sense. There's no reason to think that all of Lilly's previous interactions with Lee was all just her being manipulative if there was no motive to the manipulation. It makes far more sense that she was a sincere but flawed leader, who got crazy and paranoid after people from her group smashed her father's head with a salt-lick while she was trying to save him. Say what you will about how bad her actions were, but even you have to appreciate how traumatic that must have been for her.
I'll assume you read the comics because I'm gonna throw a name out without spoiling it. Thomas Richards, he has no plan and no motive but I bet you wouldn't class the St John or The Stranger worse than him. Killing an innocent person for no reason and justifying it afterwards, does that not make you bad? She's not the only one to suffer a traumatic experience in this franchise and if others refrain themselves from killing a person because they're in a bad mood then what's her excuse and only two people or one person killed her dad, if she killed them instead, it would be more understandable but she killed someone that never did anything to her.
From Lilly. "I've seen you two together," referring to Carley and Ben. She also remarked how Carley seemed oddly eager to see the supplies when they brought them in. Of course, you probably assumed that she was lying.
I wouldn't take anything Lilly said seriously. She targets Carley who has done a lot for the group in the 3 months she known her, one week after a new guy arrives and Carley is the first she accuses? Truth is, she never liked Carley from the beginning and used this Traitor as an excuse to pick on her.
Why "forget about the style of actions they did"? That's pretty damn important in this case. But fine. Assuming it's the same amount of pain, pain caused by people whom you know and depend on feels worse than pain caused by strangers. But you'd also be more likely to forgive a person who caused you pain if they had looked out for you in the past.
It's worse on her part because you'd expect hostile strangers to harm you but someone you know. Again, she never looked out for you or cared about you and the group. Where do you get this idea she did?
And in most cases, Lilly left her for dead as majority of the gamers made the decision to bring that bitch with them.
IIRC, it was a 4… more5/55 split. Meaning that for a little less than half the gamers out there, Clem never saw Lilly steal the RV. That's a significant portion of people who played the game.
What? You think Clem will compare her looking for her parents to Lilly murdering an innocent person? In Clem's mind the last thing she wanted to do is hurt Lee but in Lilly's mind the first thing she wanted to do is hurt Carley. Clem wanted to find her parents, I don't think she knew she was putting Lee or anyone else in danger, she believed the Stranger was a good man. Lilly pulled out her gun with the intent to kill. How on earth did you get to the idea that is what she believes in?
From her conversation with Luke in the first episode of Season 2. She expresses guilt that her past mistakes have gotten good people killed. If … [view original content]
I feel like we're going in circles with this. Something like "Lee, get your head down so I can get a shot" or "Mark/Dad catch this gun". Lee called out for the Axe because it was his Axe that they were using.
What orders would Lilly have needed to shout? Mark/Larry were already responding to the threat because Lee immediately calls out for their axe… more (interesting that he didn't call out for either Lilly's or Carley's guns). There was nothing important for her to say there.
Again, you didn't read what I said: It doesn't matter if she had physical proof, she used logic to narrow it down, meaning Ben is the only one who would have been manipulated so.
And Ben's tomfoolery nearly got the whole group killed; though death wouldn't be my first choice of punishment, it isn't an out-of-the-ordinary penalty for someone who betrayed your group, even if he was blackmailed: Ben should have told the group about the bandit's having his friend, because that's how this group works; we are a group, and secrets tear the group apart, as we have seen. Besides, Kenny wanted to throw Ben out as soon as he found out he was responsible for the death of Kat and Duck.
But at that point, she was pointing fingers and considered her word of mouth as evidence. She had no proof yet already decided Ben deserved a death penalty.
So what you're saying is that if you make a bad decision that cost someone their life, you should sympathize with a unremorseful cold blooded killer because after all, you did something similar?
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, she shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
And being glad that someone that caused the death of your family is dead is just as bad as someone killing an innocent person for no reason?
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfall of the group. Kenny tried to have Ben kicked out, signaled Lee to drop Ben, and then celebrated his death for causing his family's death. Those are pretty comparable. Lilly's claim even makes more sense then Kenny's.
Once you commit an evil deed, there's no turning back as we saw from Shane(TV series). No matter what choice you make with her, Lilly should be grateful that you didn't kill her for what she's done.
That's quite a generalization. Kenny has committed acts that I would characterize as evil and yet he managed to turn it around at the end. It's true in real life as well. People do feel remorse for evil acts that they committed years before and become better people.
I'll assume you read the comics because I'm gonna throw a name out without spoiling it. Thomas Richards, he has no plan and no motive but I bet you wouldn't class the St John or The Stranger worse than him.
We were discussing whether Lilly was being manipulative with her kind words to Lee. My point was just that we had no reason to think that she was because she had no reason to be manipulative. Thomas Richards was a sociopath. That's not what Lilly was. Lilly killed out of anger and paranoia, which were fueled by what she saw as an act of betrayal from the people in her group. It made her unstable. I'm not saying that that absolves her of anything, but it serves as a far better explanation for her behavior than "she was evil all along."
Again, she never looked out for you or cared about you and the group. Where do you get this idea she did?
She helped save the group from the bandits. She wasn't necessarily risking her life (although Kenny wanted to leave her), but what she did was looking out for the group. She also gave Clem those "hair thingies," which while a small gesture, implies that Lilly did care for Clem.
IIRC, it was a 45/55 split. Meaning that for a little less than half the gamers out there, Clem never saw Lilly steal the RV. That's a signifi… morecant portion of people who played the game.
58% took Lilly with them. In most gameplays, Clem witnessed her betrayal, killing Carley/Doug is already bad enough and then she sees another reason why Lilly is bad.
From her conversation with Luke in the first episode of Season 2. She expresses guilt that her past mistakes have gotten good people killed. If Lilly comes back and expresses a similar sentiment, I think it'll resonate with Clem. Yes, there are differences in the scenarios. I'm not saying that they're exactly the same and I'm not saying that Clem thinks they are exactly the same. All I'm saying is that the amount of guilt that Clem feels for what she did will make her more empathetic to a similarly guilt-ridden Lilly.
I'm sure when the Stranger grabbed her, she knew she messed u… [view original content]
"Leaving her on the road is the same as murder"
Hmm... When the Stranger said that to me(it was the Stranger, right?), I believe my response was "She deserved it".
So, yeah. You probably wouldn't want me here.
The fact remains that you even considered that even in a situation like that, something that was essentially an EXECUTION was bravery.
I'm sorry, but that is just insane. It makes no sense, and it makes me feel like you are a horrible person, and someone I would never want to associate myself with.
Oh, and if you were trying to be clever with using the same line Lee said to Lilly("Well you don't have to be a bitch about it!"), then you failed. One, "bitch" is an insult generally used against women, and so you made an assumption that I was a woman. Since I'm not, it just makes me feel like laughing at you. Two, you censored it. If you're going to swear at me, what exactly is the point of censoring your insult?
I played through with Doug as well. Maybe she was sorry that she killed Doug, but if she killed Ben, her intended target, then she once more would not have felt an ounce of remorse. Doug only died because she was trying to kill Ben. She still deserved it.
Also, she still betrayed Lee. Oh, and if Lee DOES let her stay with them, she says that she'll let Lee come with her, but then, tells him to go get clementine, which turns out to be an excuse so that she can leave on her own. So she betrays him AGAIN in that scenario.
Either, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive her, but sure, if you and others can, then I agree with you that there should be the option.
I'd rather any interesting characters come back than be killed already. I think she showed remorse in Doug's. Carley's I'm not sure about as I… more haven't played through fully with her yet. It's wrong what she said about Carley but hopefully she didn't mean a word of it. If she does and she comes back, given the options I'd forgive her in Doug's playthrough and not forgive her in Carley's.
I'm not at all saying it was right. Just that I wouldn't blame her for running from the group after that. She could've even rethought it and realised Lee could tell Kenny and keep her there. The thumbs down are unnecessary though. They show just how immature some people are. I know what Lilly does is horrible and am only saying I'd like it to be a choice to forget it or condemn her. I won't forgive her either. Just some other choice like "I won't bring that up if you don't. Keep your emotions in control this time and we leave it in the past." if she seems different in S2 at all
I played through with Doug as well. Maybe she was sorry that she killed Doug, but if she killed Ben, her intended target, then she once more w… moreould not have felt an ounce of remorse. Doug only died because she was trying to kill Ben. She still deserved it.
Also, she still betrayed Lee. Oh, and if Lee DOES let her stay with them, she says that she'll let Lee come with her, but then, tells him to go get clementine, which turns out to be an excuse so that she can leave on her own. So she betrays him AGAIN in that scenario.
Either, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive her, but sure, if you and others can, then I agree with you that there should be the option.
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, she shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
Why would I sympathize with a cold blooded killer that took the life of an innocent person when my action was nothing compared to hers?
Clem: I trusted a stranger who promised me that he'll help find my parent but he lied and the people that looked after me died.
Lilly: I killed someone that didn't do anything to me because I was angry.
How would there be sympathy if both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't. You sympathize with someone more if you did something similar, Clem would sympathize with Nick more than she would with Lilly.
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfall of the group. Kenny tried to have Ben kicked out, signaled Lee to drop Ben, and then celebrated his death for causing his family's death. Those are pretty comparable. Lilly's claim even makes more sense then Kenny's.
At the time, she had no evidence or proof, only her word of mouth then she made the decision to execute him and it cost someone else their life. Kenny made it a group decision to decide whether to kick Ben out or not
because Ben "Confessed", Kenny had the full information while Lilly didn't. In the end Ben stayed and Kenny accepts it, that signal did mean for Lee to drop Ben but only because it looked like he can't be saved. And Celebrated? oh man, that gave me a good chuckle, did Kenny smile? did he put on a party hat? do you think he was happy?
In the end, did Kenny attempt to kill Ben even if there was a good reason to do so? No, Did Lilly attempt to kill Ben when there was nothing to go on? Yes, So they're not comparable. Lilly had no claim to begin with, Kenny lost his family due to Ben's stupidity, don't you think he has a better claim than Lilly?
That's quite a generalization. Kenny has committed acts that I would characterize as evil and yet he managed to turn it around at the end. It's true in real life as well. People do feel remorse for evil acts that they committed years before and become better people.
If you mean the Larry situation then Kenny had his reason while Lilly didn't. I take it you're familiar with The Governor, would you say he has a chance at redeeming himself and becoming a better person?
We were discussing whether Lilly was being manipulative with her kind words to Lee. My point was just that we had no reason to think that she was because she had no reason to be manipulative. Thomas Richards was a sociopath. That's not what Lilly was. Lilly killed out of anger and paranoia, which were fueled by what she saw as an act of betrayal from the people in her group. It made her unstable. I'm not saying that that absolves her of anything, but it serves as a far better explanation for her behavior than "she was evil all along."
Lilly is the one who is a sociopath, Thomas is a psychopath. The main discussion was that you believed a bad person needs to have plans to be labeled bad and I think it's been established that you don't need to have plans in order to be bad. She was angry & paranoid, are you telling me that took her morals away? You have to be an evil person to kill someone as kind as Carley and justify it afterwards then have the heart to leave your group for dead.
She helped save the group from the bandits. She wasn't necessarily risking her life (although Kenny wanted to leave her), but what she did was looking out for the group. She also gave Clem those "hair thingies," which while a small gesture, implies that Lilly did care for Clem.
You forget that she was the one that arrogantly kept the group at the motel to begin with, yeah Kenny wanted to leave her which was a good idea, you know what Lilly does afterwards. She gave Clem hair clips, Andy St John built Clem a tree swing, does that mean he cared?
So what you're saying is that if you make a bad decision that cost someone their life, you should sympathize with a unremorseful cold blooded … morekiller because after all, you did something similar?
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, she shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
And being glad that someone that caused the death of your family is dead is just as bad as someone killing an innocent person for no reason?
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfall of the group. Kenny tried to have Ben kicked out, signaled Lee to drop Ben, and then celebrated his death for causing his family's death. Those are pretty comparable. Lilly's claim even makes more sense then Kenny's.
… [view original content]
Yeah I read what you said. She decided to act without proof, we found out it was Ben afterwards but at that point, all she was doing is guessing.
Ben's an idiot but Lilly is as much to blame. She knew there were bandits lurking in the woods yet she made the decision to stay at the motel even when she was told it's not safe and Macon's been picked clean, Ben was scared of Lilly which is why he didn't say a thing after all he did tell Lee it was him but wouldn't to Lilly. Not to mention she did a terrible job watching the supplies if an idiot like Ben can steal it from under her nose. Ben is a moron, what's Lilly's excuse?
Actually the TV series is all about being able to come back. Rick came back with help from Hershel and everyone else. Carl came back with Rick focusing on being a father to him
IIRC, it was a 45/55 split. Meaning that for a little less than half the gamers out there, Clem never saw Lilly steal the RV. That's a signifi… morecant portion of people who played the game.
58% took Lilly with them. In most gameplays, Clem witnessed her betrayal, killing Carley/Doug is already bad enough and then she sees another reason why Lilly is bad.
From her conversation with Luke in the first episode of Season 2. She expresses guilt that her past mistakes have gotten good people killed. If Lilly comes back and expresses a similar sentiment, I think it'll resonate with Clem. Yes, there are differences in the scenarios. I'm not saying that they're exactly the same and I'm not saying that Clem thinks they are exactly the same. All I'm saying is that the amount of guilt that Clem feels for what she did will make her more empathetic to a similarly guilt-ridden Lilly.
I'm sure when the Stranger grabbed her, she knew she messed u… [view original content]
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, s… morehe shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
Why would I sympathize with a cold blooded killer that took the life of an innocent person when my action was nothing compared to hers?
Clem: I trusted a stranger who promised me that he'll help find my parent but he lied and the people that looked after me died.
Lilly: I killed someone that didn't do anything to me because I was angry.
How would there be sympathy if both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't. You sympathize with someone more if you did something similar, Clem would sympathize with Nick more than she would with Lilly.
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfal… [view original content]
This length of this conversation is getting a bit ridiculous. Maybe we should take it to PMs or something.
How would there be sympathy if both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't.
Maybe not in the Carley case, but in the Doug case, both had reasons for doing what they did. Reasons that were both based on pretty flimsy evidence, sure, but they were both too bogged down by emotion to see things clearly.
And Celebrated? oh man, that gave me a good chuckle, did Kenny smile? do you think he was happy?
Yes he did and yes he was. Did you watch the scene? Go back and look at Kenny's smug smile, cocked eyebrow, and listen to the tone of his voice. He was happy. I thought we'd already settled on that. Also, pay attention to what Kenny said: "Dumb son of bitch nearly got us all killed. Lee stepped up and did what he had to. That's what happened." Nothing about Ben being in an unsavable position. Just: "Ben's not here because he fucked up and Lee dropped him." That's how Kenny perceived the situation. And he was proud of it. That's pretty damn disgusting.
Kenny lost his family due to Ben's stupidity, don't you think he has a better claim than Lilly?
Kenny lost his family because a zombie got into the motor inn and happened to attack his kid. He blamed Ben for an event that was completely outside his control.
Lilly is the one who is a sociopath, Thomas is a psychopath. The main discussion was that you believed a bad person needs to have plans to be labeled bad and I think it's been established that you don't need to have plans in order to be bad. She was angry & paranoid, are you telling me that took her morals away? You have to be an evil person to kill someone as kind as Carley and justify it afterwards then have the heart to leave your group for dead.
The problem is that you seem to think that Lilly's action on the side of the road was indicative of her personality all along and I think that's a simplistic view of things. I don't think Lilly would have done any of the things she did had she not lost her father so violently at the hand of another member of the group. Yes, the experience made her lose some of her morality, and it also warped her perception of things. When she shot Ben (and arguably when she shot Carley), she thought she was protecting the group by doing what she did. And you know what, if Kenny had thought that Ben was responsible for the bandit raid, he would have agreed.
You forget that she was the one that arrogantly kept the group at the motel to begin with, yeah Kenny wanted to leave her which was a good idea, you know what Lilly does afterwards. She gave Clem hair clips, Andy St John built Clem a tree swing, does that mean he cared?
The RV wasn't even fully fixed when the bandits arrived; they would have still been there regardless of Lilly's opinion. Does Kenny have fortune-telling powers that he expected Lilly to shoot Carley? Or did he just advocate to leave a woman behind as she was trying the fend off the bandits who had captured him and his family? And again, what Andy St. John did was done in order to get the group to trust him. There is no reason for Lilly giving Clem the hair ties other than that she wanted Clem to sleep more comfortably.
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, s… morehe shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
Why would I sympathize with a cold blooded killer that took the life of an innocent person when my action was nothing compared to hers?
Clem: I trusted a stranger who promised me that he'll help find my parent but he lied and the people that looked after me died.
Lilly: I killed someone that didn't do anything to me because I was angry.
How would there be sympathy if both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't. You sympathize with someone more if you did something similar, Clem would sympathize with Nick more than she would with Lilly.
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfal… [view original content]
I agree with you, but thumbs down aren't actually immature. I don't get why people on this forum have a problem with them. They're there to show if people agree or disagree. If people disagree, then they thumbs down. It's not like they're flagging your comment.
I'm not at all saying it was right. Just that I wouldn't blame her for running from the group after that. She could've even rethought it and r… moreealised Lee could tell Kenny and keep her there. The thumbs down are unnecessary though. They show just how immature some people are. I know what Lilly does is horrible and am only saying I'd like it to be a choice to forget it or condemn her. I won't forgive her either. Just some other choice like "I won't bring that up if you don't. Keep your emotions in control this time and we leave it in the past." if she seems different in S2 at all
True. I'd just rather everyone chip in I suppose. Opinions are welcome so I'd just like to know why anyone would dislike a neutral POV. Agree though, I was in a silly mood yesterday
I agree with you, but thumbs down aren't actually immature. I don't get why people on this forum have a problem with them. They're there to sh… moreow if people agree or disagree. If people disagree, then they thumbs down. It's not like they're flagging your comment.
Maybe not in the Carley case, but in the Doug case, both had reasons for doing what they did. Reasons that were both based on pretty flimsy evidence, sure, but they were both too bogged down by emotion to see things clearly.
Clem did what she did out of love for her parents, Lilly did what she did out of hatred & anger yet you're trying to connect these two as if it had the same reason behind it and expected the same result.
Yes he did and yes he was. Did you watch the scene? Go back and look at Kenny's smug smile, cocked eyebrow, and listen to the tone of his voice. He was happy. I thought we'd already settled on that. Also, pay attention to what Kenny said: "Dumb son of bitch nearly got us all killed. Lee stepped up and did what he had to. That's what happened." Nothing about Ben being in an unsavable position. Just: "Ben's not here because he fucked up and Lee dropped him." That's how Kenny perceived the situation. And he was proud of it. That's pretty damn disgusting.
You call that a smile? I didn't see any smile. I know what he said, still doesn't convince me he was gloating, how do you get "I'm happy Ben is dead" from those two sentences? He was telling it how it is, Ben's death resulted in his stupidity, to take the Axe from the door and he nearly got them all killed because of that. From Kenny's point of view, Lee was struggling to hold onto Ben and Ben told Lee to drop him and zombies were quickly making their way up, Kenny gave him that look "Either you die saving him or live by letting him go", Kenny didn't demand Lee to let him go. Whether you think he was gloating or not, he didn't kill Ben, didn't indirectly cause his death and doesn't even attempt to kill him after you pull him up. It seems your more disgusted by Kenny wanting someone dead with reason than Lilly killing someone without a reason. It's a normal reaction to want someone dead that caused the death of your family, you don't think Lilly wanted Kenny dead after he smashed her dads head with a salt lick? Do you think she would shed a tear or be sad when Kenny dies as you expect Kenny to do with Ben?
Kenny lost his family because a zombie got into the motor inn and happened to attack his kid. He blamed Ben for an event that was completely outside his control.
You mean like Lilly did? That happened because Ben kept his bandit dealing a secret, the bandit attack is what led the zombies to the motel which led to Duck getting bitten. Even Ben knows it was his fault.
The problem is that you seem to think that Lilly's action on the side of the road was indicative of her personality all along and I think that's a simplistic view of things. I don't think Lilly would have done any of the things she did had she not lost her father so violently at the hand of another member of the group. Yes, the experience made her lose some of her morality, and it also warped her perception of things. When she shot Ben (and arguably when she shot Carley), she thought she was protecting the group by doing what she did. And you know what, if Kenny had thought that Ben was responsible for the bandit raid, he would have agreed.
She killed an innocent person in cold blood and was also an unreasonable bitch whether you're good to her or not, yet that isn't enough for you to see how much of a bad person she really is. And you use her dad's death as an excuse? she's not the only to lose someone she cares about and if others can refrain themselves from doing the things she did, what's her excuse? Yeah you can say it was her dad's death that might have caused her downfall but you can also say the same about The Governor if his brother wasn't killed but it doesn't take away the fact that he's an evil sadistic bastard. You may think she was protecting the group by murdering someone within her own group just like St Johns, The Governor, Negan protecting their own, doesn't make it right and the fact that she stabs the group in the back later on debunks this idea she ever cared. Kenny would've agreed to throw Ben out and that's it, even when Ben confesses later on after Duck & Katjaa's death, he doesn't kill him or even attempt to.
The RV wasn't even fully fixed when the bandits arrived; they would have still been there regardless of Lilly's opinion. Does Kenny have fortune-telling powers that he expected Lilly to shoot Carley? Or did he just advocate to leave a woman behind as she was trying the fend off the bandits who had captured him and his family? And again, what Andy St. John did was done in order to get the group to trust him. There is no reason for Lilly giving Clem the hair ties other than that she wanted Clem to sleep more comfortably.
The RV just needed a jump start, it happens to a lot of vehicles, Kenny never mentioned anything about the RV needing a few more works in Episode 3. I like the way you say "Or did he just advocate to leave a woman behind as she was trying the fend off the bandits who had captured him and his family?" even though Lilly did the same but it seems your more angry with Kenny than Lilly, he wanted to leave Lilly who was hell bent on staying at the motel. You expect me to believe that she cared about Clem when she abandoned her, what would Lilly do with hair ties anyway? Give something away that is of no use to you + abandoning = loving caring person? You know that doesn't add up.
This length of this conversation is getting a bit ridiculous. Maybe we should take it to PMs or something.
How would there be sympathy i… moref both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't.
Maybe not in the Carley case, but in the Doug case, both had reasons for doing what they did. Reasons that were both based on pretty flimsy evidence, sure, but they were both too bogged down by emotion to see things clearly.
And Celebrated? oh man, that gave me a good chuckle, did Kenny smile? do you think he was happy?
Yes he did and yes he was. Did you watch the scene? Go back and look at Kenny's smug smile, cocked eyebrow, and listen to the tone of his voice. He was happy. I thought we'd already settled on that. Also, pay attention to what Kenny said: "Dumb son of bitch nearly got us all killed. Lee stepped up and did what he had to. That's what happened." Nothing about Ben being in an unsavable position. Just: "Ben's … [view original content]
Actually the TV series is all about being able to come back. Rick came back with help from Hershel and everyone else. Carl came back with Rick focusing on being a father to him
Was it was an act of kindness when she kills someone for no reason, was it was an act of kindness when she outs you as a convicted killer and was it an act of kindness when she leaves you, Clementine and others to die by robbing the RV?
Carl shoots someone in S3. The scene is debatable even now. It shocked Rick into realising he needed to focus on being a father to Carl again and took away his gun, retired as the leader again. Carl was becoming ruthless like Rick who in turn was becoming like Shane. Carol also changed like this in S4. You also didn't comment on the point that the theme of the TV series is coming back from the horrible things done by characters. This is true in the comic and game
I didn't say Lilly would scheme to leave with a big plan or anything. I said in that situation she could've ran for the hills because she wasn't discovered yet. The group could've left if they wanted, Lilly wasn't declaring martial law. Yes optional does count. Lee killed Larry, why should she help? Lee helped her, she'll help against Danny, guard Clem, help against Andy. It counts, same as Kenny throwing away your entire friendship and letting Lee be attacked all because Lee wouldn't smash a man'sface
Lee stated that he killed the senator by accident. Lilly could've left but she was determined to stay at the motel no matter what and she need… moreed the group, they were the ones that kept her alive, what are the chances of her finding another group that she can boss to find her food? Besides, it was her arrogance that kept the group at the motel to begin with, she knew the bandits were in the woods and new Macon ran out of supplies but she still stayed. If optional counts then she stood there and was willing to let Andy kill me with Clementine witnessing it. You're right, optional behaviour in the story changes a character but that only works with Kenny, Lilly's the same no matter what whether you're a dick to her or nice, she'll pull the same stunts.
If you at all try putting yourself in a similar situation, you'd see it. Desperate people do desperate things. Carley was murder I agree. Doug was murder. Both horrible. The only discrepancy is I rewatched both and noticed the drastically different facial expressions. Carley you see Lilly's face become incredibly angry and she slowly draws the gun, then after her face she seems blank like she doesn't care. Good reason to hate her. With Doug in my playthrough, the shot lingers on her shocked face expression instead and she slowly shakes her head like she can't believe it was Doug. She doesn't deserve forgiveness because that'd be an insult to whomever she shot. She could instead redeem herself and Clem could agree or threaten to not mention itto others if Lilly truly is different. Then say if she steps out of line even once in a similar way, Clem tells everyone the truth
Was it was an act of kindness when she kills someone for no reason, was it was an act of kindness when she outs you as a convicted killer and was it an act of kindness when she leaves you, Clementine and others to die by robbing the RV?
You know that down votes ONLY mean 'I disagree' right? They don't mean 'I dislike you' or 'I think you are a terrible person.' When people aren't confident or bothered enough to write replies (or just can't think of anything good to write, or don't have time, etc), that's what the upvote/downvote system is for, as well as so if another person has already written the same thing, you can just go, hey I agree! instead of filling the thread with the same opinion over and over (which in itself is fine if people are just having fun in a slapstick fun thread like in the walking dead meme thread, but pretty annoying if it happens when people are trying to make progress in a discussion about a particular topic. The few people on this forum that still do take offense from down-votes, really need to stop taking offense when others disagree with them through the thumb system. It either means you didn't articulate your ideas properly, you offended someone, or they just don't think you are correct. It doesn't mean they hate you or you have to hate them. It's also a way to show your disapproval of trolls without feeding them and ruining threads with tons of stop derailing the thread/harassing people' replies that derail the thread when the troll stirs up more trouble and multiplies the problem.
Love the downvote you got because that fan is angry at you for not spamming that it has to be Kenny, haha.
Kenny himself says the RV only has… more a few miles of gas left in it, Lilly was alone and Clementine has been brought upto believe if you're alone, you don't last long.
And for the last time, she's still A CHILD, it's not hard for her to make assumptions like this.
Hence the quote "I thought you was dead" the keywords being "I" and "Thought"
And like I said, she needed the group, they were the ones that kept her alive, what are the chances of her finding another group that she can boss to find her food? Your saying that she had the right to let you die because you kill her dad with a reason but your saying she should be helped after she kills Doug/Carley without any reason.
I didn't say Lilly would scheme to leave with a big plan or anything. I said in that situation she could've ran for the hills because she wasn… more't discovered yet. The group could've left if they wanted, Lilly wasn't declaring martial law. Yes optional does count. Lee killed Larry, why should she help? Lee helped her, she'll help against Danny, guard Clem, help against Andy. It counts, same as Kenny throwing away your entire friendship and letting Lee be attacked all because Lee wouldn't smash a man'sface
There's 50/50 chance that the person was good or bad, remember, he was part of the group that attacked the prison, some people say he was bad because he didn't put down his gun when told to do so but Carl thought that person, Lilly knew damn well that Ben/Carley were not a threat. Unless Rick shot someone in the leg and used him as zombie bait then he'd be just like Shane and I don't like Rick or Carl but they have nothing on Lilly. You say Carl was ruthless, even after his mom died, he helped save Michonne & Tyreese's group from being eaten by zombies, remember Lilly wanted to leave Lee, Clementine and Kenny's family out to be eaten. And I never liked Carol anyway, sh can't tell the difference between self defense & cold blooded murder.
Carl shoots someone in S3. The scene is debatable even now. It shocked Rick into realising he needed to focus on being a father to Carl again … moreand took away his gun, retired as the leader again. Carl was becoming ruthless like Rick who in turn was becoming like Shane. Carol also changed like this in S4. You also didn't comment on the point that the theme of the TV series is coming back from the horrible things done by characters. This is true in the comic and game
Lilly murdering is now a sign of desperation? that's your excuse for her? Unless she was desperate to shoot someone to satisfy her trigger finger if that's what you mean. Yeah, desperate people do desperate things but nothing like that, even desperate people know their limits and not cross the line and I don't see myself doing what she did and there were times when I was desperate.
She doesn't deserve forgiveness because that'd be an insult to whomever she shot.
Finally you get it, this is what I've been telling you.
She could instead redeem herself and Clem could agree or threaten to not mention itto others if Lilly truly is different. Then say if she steps out of line even once in a similar way, Clem tells everyone the truth
OK, put yourself in Clems situation. You're in a rule free apocalyptic world and a crazy bitch you've known for 3 months shoots your best friend who has done a lot for you and saved you more times than you can imagine and hasn't given anyone a reason to hate him and in return, he gets murdered in cold blood and you somehow take pity on the bitch only for her to stab you in the back, what would you do when you see her again?
And more importantly what would you say to your deceased friend?
"Hey bro, I'm gonna give that woman that took your life away a second chance to redeem herself after the first chance she was given but ended up stabbing me in the back even though she killed you for no reason and didn't give a flying fuck about what she did especially after you done so much for her and me and others but she's not a bad person, everybody makes mistakes similar to a bartender giving you a wrong drink order even if that mistake cost your life and you're never gonna experience life again, I'm hoping I become her friend again, Peace!"
Clementine might as well say something similar to Lee, Kenny, Ben, Carley/Doug, Duck and Katjaa if she even considers giving Lilly a chance. I'm not saying Clem should kill her on the spot(As much as I want that) but man I don't want to see her having the option to be nice to her and give her a chance to redeem herself, she should give her a hard time and expose her as the cowardly, self-entitled, cold hearted murdering degenerate witch that she really is.
If you at all try putting yourself in a similar situation, you'd see it. Desperate people do desperate things. Carley was murder I agree. Doug… more was murder. Both horrible. The only discrepancy is I rewatched both and noticed the drastically different facial expressions. Carley you see Lilly's face become incredibly angry and she slowly draws the gun, then after her face she seems blank like she doesn't care. Good reason to hate her. With Doug in my playthrough, the shot lingers on her shocked face expression instead and she slowly shakes her head like she can't believe it was Doug. She doesn't deserve forgiveness because that'd be an insult to whomever she shot. She could instead redeem herself and Clem could agree or threaten to not mention itto others if Lilly truly is different. Then say if she steps out of line even once in a similar way, Clem tells everyone the truth
Firstly, the desperation thing is about her stealing the RV, sorry if I wrote it awkwardly. Secondly, I've always said she shouldn't be forgiven for murder, trust me. I said she deserves the opportunity to redeem herself. Not be forgiven, just the opportunity to change herself after what she's done. The two aren't interchangeable. I'm not exactly a fan of looking at the world in a depressing "Crim is irredeemable" way. I prefer to look for good in others. Lilly isn't some serial killer yet. Far as we know she's killed one person. Yes a horrible deed. If she isn't making it a habit though, she could change. This isn't exactly a direct comparison but it helps my POV I think. In another story: SPOILERS for Assassin's Creed 1
When Altair egotistically and thoughtlessly gets his friend Malik's younger brother killed in the prologue AND in the same situation is the reason Malik himself loses his arm, Malik loathes and despises him for it for a long time. When Altair realises what he's done and over the course of time becomes wise and humble, he apologises to Malik, knowing he can't ever truly repent for it. Malik says he doesn't even need to apologise, for he is "Not the same man" he was then. Different situations yes, but redemption is an opportunity for Lilly if Telltale want her to come back
Lilly murdering is now a sign of desperation? that's your excuse for her? Unless she was desperate to shoot someone to satisfy her trigger fin… moreger if that's what you mean. Yeah, desperate people do desperate things but nothing like that, even desperate people know their limits and not cross the line and I don't see myself doing what she did and there were times when I was desperate.
She doesn't deserve forgiveness because that'd be an insult to whomever she shot.
Finally you get it, this is what I've been telling you.
She could instead redeem herself and Clem could agree or threaten to not mention itto others if Lilly truly is different. Then say if she steps out of line even once in a similar way, Clem tells everyone the truth
OK, put yourself in Clems situation. You're in a rule free apocalyptic world and a crazy bitch you've known for 3 months shoots your best friend who has done a lot for you and saved you more time… [view original content]
True. The point is it shocked Rick into realising his son is changing because of him and he doesn't like these changes at all. I'm notat all saying Carl is ruthless, I'm saying the proven point is Rick decided Carl is changing too much and becoming too violent, much like Becca in 400 Days. You never liked Carol in the entire TV series because she killed in S4? She wouldn't ever do such a thing like that before S4 so that doesn't make sense. Rick was ruthless, in the comic he amputates his new lover's arm as he runs away from a herd with her, Carl and her son. He doesn't even try to drag her away from her son, he amputates her arm and leaves them both there. He's come back. Lilly didn't WANT to leave the group. She could've even seen it this way: Stay and debatably be killed, or use the RV to escape them
There's 50/50 chance that the person was good or bad, remember, he was part of the group that attacked the prison, some people say he was bad … morebecause he didn't put down his gun when told to do so but Carl thought that person, Lilly knew damn well that Ben/Carley were not a threat. Unless Rick shot someone in the leg and used him as zombie bait then he'd be just like Shane and I don't like Rick or Carl but they have nothing on Lilly. You say Carl was ruthless, even after his mom died, he helped save Michonne & Tyreese's group from being eaten by zombies, remember Lilly wanted to leave Lee, Clementine and Kenny's family out to be eaten. And I never liked Carol anyway, sh can't tell the difference between self defense & cold blooded murder.
You're missing the point by far. I said if she was a murderous coward, or desperate, she could've easily ran away and at least tried it alone. She stayed instead. You're right I'm saying if I were her and someone smashed Larry's face, I wouldn't want to help them. Would you? I mean like without any group mentality survivalist bs. With the emotional turmoil of seeing Larry killed by Kenny, held back by Lee, all the while being hunted by cannibals, would you even be able to process much, let alone even care if Kenny or Lee are killed? I'm not even saying we should actively help Lilly after Carley and Doug either. She's free to redeem herself if she wants. See? I'm not saying give her a welcoming hug and invite her in for tea. Just give her the opportunity, don't murder her before we even know if she's different now. That could even start a group war if she's with others OR give Rebecca even more anti Clementine ammo
And like I said, she needed the group, they were the ones that kept her alive, what are the chances of her finding another group that she can … moreboss to find her food? Your saying that she had the right to let you die because you kill her dad with a reason but your saying she should be helped after she kills Doug/Carley without any reason.
No matter how much they were changing, they do have a line not to cross. I was not fond of Carol in Season 1, Season 2 I lost it with her when she tried pitting Daryl against Rick, Season 3 she was useless and I find it funny that people call Beth useless when she at least did something, Season 4 she's scum, a loose canon that endangers herself and others and insults two people she killed by comparing them to Tomas, Shane, Dave & Tony, Like Lilly I don't get the appeal for Carol.
Rick had a reason for what he did, he had to amputate his lover Jessie Anderson's arm because she was dragging his son towards an agonizing death of being eaten, you can see that he was in tears for what he was about to do because he cared so much about her but he had to do it to save his son from the same faith, he knew she was dead the moment she was grabbed and was being chomped on, he tried dragging her away from her son but a mothers love for her child is too strong to drag away. He felt like shit for what he did and he even went to her grave to mourn for her. How can you even call that ruthless? That's harsh don't you think. And I've said this before, this is the same group that were horrified when Andy St John gets kicked onto the electric fence so why would she think they would kill her, if she wanted to leave, leave on foot instead of taking a vehicle and leaving Clementine, Duck & Katjaa and Lee(depending) for dead, I doubt they'll bother chasing after her.
True. The point is it shocked Rick into realising his son is changing because of him and he doesn't like these changes at all. I'm notat all s… moreaying Carl is ruthless, I'm saying the proven point is Rick decided Carl is changing too much and becoming too violent, much like Becca in 400 Days. You never liked Carol in the entire TV series because she killed in S4? She wouldn't ever do such a thing like that before S4 so that doesn't make sense. Rick was ruthless, in the comic he amputates his new lover's arm as he runs away from a herd with her, Carl and her son. He doesn't even try to drag her away from her son, he amputates her arm and leaves them both there. He's come back. Lilly didn't WANT to leave the group. She could've even seen it this way: Stay and debatably be killed, or use the RV to escape them
If she was so desperate to get away than leave on foot, why punish the people she seemingly cares about. Whether she was desperate or not(And I believe she was not), still doesn't change the fact that it was a shitty thing. The Hunters from the comics, those sick motherfuckers were so desperate for food, they resorted to cannibalism but it wont change the fact what they did was so sick. There's reasons for every desperation, The Hunters wanted food to satisfy their hunger, what was Lilly's reasoning? There is none. She's not a serial killer but she's still a murderer and that one person she killed was a good person that even showed concerns for her.
ASSASSIN'S CREED SPOILERS
Whether you see it this way or not, Altair didn't kill Malik's brother Kadar with his hand, yes his bad decision did but it was never his intention to hurt him and cost him his life. He was arrogant and cocky and thought he can take on Robert De Sable and the Templar's but didn't expect how powerful Robert was and threw Altair out of the room, Altair tried to get back to help Malik & Kadar but couldn't so he had no choice to go to Al Mualim. Malik forgave him because Altair never wanted his brother to lose his life and his arm and didn't think that it would go that far because he had a high rank from a young age, I don't think Malik would forgive Altair if he stabbed Kadar in the face, killing him because Kadar called him a bitch. You're acting like Lilly didn't know what would happen if she shot someone, did she think the bullet was going to bounce off Carley/Doug? Regardless of how he presented it, Altair had good intentions, what good intention did Lilly have when she shot someone mercilessly?
Firstly, the desperation thing is about her stealing the RV, sorry if I wrote it awkwardly. Secondly, I've always said she shouldn't be forgiv… moreen for murder, trust me. I said she deserves the opportunity to redeem herself. Not be forgiven, just the opportunity to change herself after what she's done. The two aren't interchangeable. I'm not exactly a fan of looking at the world in a depressing "Crim is irredeemable" way. I prefer to look for good in others. Lilly isn't some serial killer yet. Far as we know she's killed one person. Yes a horrible deed. If she isn't making it a habit though, she could change. This isn't exactly a direct comparison but it helps my POV I think. In another story: SPOILERS for Assassin's Creed 1
When Altair egotistically and thoughtlessly gets his friend Malik's younger brother killed in the prologue AND in the same situation is the reason Malik himself loses his arm, Malik loathes and despises him for it for a long … [view original content]
Comments
Wait... You think that Lilly murdering Carley in cold blood for no reason was Bravery?
...
I can only assume you have no soul. Or at the very least the comprehension of the difference between MURDER and BRAVERY.
"Leaving her on the road is the same as murder"
Hmm... When the Stranger said that to me(it was the Stranger, right?), I believe my response was "She deserved it".
So, yeah. You probably wouldn't want me here.
I'd rather any interesting characters come back than be killed already. I think she showed remorse in Doug's. Carley's I'm not sure about as I haven't played through fully with her yet. It's wrong what she said about Carley but hopefully she didn't mean a word of it. If she does and she comes back, given the options I'd forgive her in Doug's playthrough and not forgive her in Carley's.
Is he actually in the files and if he is what and why is he there?
I said what do I know, don't be a bi*** about it.
But at that point, she was pointing fingers and considered her word of mouth as evidence. She had no proof yet already decided Ben deserved a death penalty.
58% took Lilly with them. In most gameplays, Clem witnessed her betrayal, killing Carley/Doug is already bad enough and then she sees another reason why Lilly is bad.
I'm sure when the Stranger grabbed her, she knew she messed up, Lilly on the other hand didn't and tried justifying it afterwards. Her mistake was trusting the Stranger to help find her parents and she didn't think she was putting people at risk and later lose their lives, I wouldn't call Lilly's action a mistake since she doesn't see it that way, she didn't need to do it in the first place and she knew what she was doing when she aimed her gun at someone and pulled the trigger. So what you're saying is that if you make a bad decision that cost someone their life, you should sympathize with a unremorseful cold blooded killer because after all, you did something similar?
Could've, would've, at the end of the game, no matter what choice you make, Kenny never kills Ben or has anything to do with it and doesn't kick him out, the guy even put it up to a vote whether to kick Ben out instead of making the decision as if he's in charge. And being glad that someone that caused the death of your family is dead is just as bad as someone killing an innocent person for no reason?
Once you commit an evil deed, there's no turning back as we saw from Shane(TV series). No matter what choice you make with her, Lilly should be grateful that you didn't kill her for what she's done.
I'll assume you read the comics because I'm gonna throw a name out without spoiling it. Thomas Richards, he has no plan and no motive but I bet you wouldn't class the St John or The Stranger worse than him. Killing an innocent person for no reason and justifying it afterwards, does that not make you bad? She's not the only one to suffer a traumatic experience in this franchise and if others refrain themselves from killing a person because they're in a bad mood then what's her excuse and only two people or one person killed her dad, if she killed them instead, it would be more understandable but she killed someone that never did anything to her.
I wouldn't take anything Lilly said seriously. She targets Carley who has done a lot for the group in the 3 months she known her, one week after a new guy arrives and Carley is the first she accuses? Truth is, she never liked Carley from the beginning and used this Traitor as an excuse to pick on her.
It's worse on her part because you'd expect hostile strangers to harm you but someone you know. Again, she never looked out for you or cared about you and the group. Where do you get this idea she did?
I feel like we're going in circles with this. Something like "Lee, get your head down so I can get a shot" or "Mark/Dad catch this gun". Lee called out for the Axe because it was his Axe that they were using.
Again, you didn't read what I said: It doesn't matter if she had physical proof, she used logic to narrow it down, meaning Ben is the only one who would have been manipulated so.
And Ben's tomfoolery nearly got the whole group killed; though death wouldn't be my first choice of punishment, it isn't an out-of-the-ordinary penalty for someone who betrayed your group, even if he was blackmailed: Ben should have told the group about the bandit's having his friend, because that's how this group works; we are a group, and secrets tear the group apart, as we have seen. Besides, Kenny wanted to throw Ben out as soon as he found out he was responsible for the death of Kat and Duck.
No, I'm saying that in that case you would probably sympathize with a remorseful killer. All of this is assuming that when Lilly comes back, she shows remorse for her actions. Otherwise, yeah, she can fuck right off.
Remember, we're talking about her trying to kill Ben here. He wasn't innocent and it wasn't for no reason. Lilly tried to kill Ben because he caused the downfall of the group. Kenny tried to have Ben kicked out, signaled Lee to drop Ben, and then celebrated his death for causing his family's death. Those are pretty comparable. Lilly's claim even makes more sense then Kenny's.
That's quite a generalization. Kenny has committed acts that I would characterize as evil and yet he managed to turn it around at the end. It's true in real life as well. People do feel remorse for evil acts that they committed years before and become better people.
We were discussing whether Lilly was being manipulative with her kind words to Lee. My point was just that we had no reason to think that she was because she had no reason to be manipulative. Thomas Richards was a sociopath. That's not what Lilly was. Lilly killed out of anger and paranoia, which were fueled by what she saw as an act of betrayal from the people in her group. It made her unstable. I'm not saying that that absolves her of anything, but it serves as a far better explanation for her behavior than "she was evil all along."
She helped save the group from the bandits. She wasn't necessarily risking her life (although Kenny wanted to leave her), but what she did was looking out for the group. She also gave Clem those "hair thingies," which while a small gesture, implies that Lilly did care for Clem.
I gave the same response.
You only see her facial expression for a few seconds. She could be happy the next second. You never know.
The fact remains that you even considered that even in a situation like that, something that was essentially an EXECUTION was bravery.
I'm sorry, but that is just insane. It makes no sense, and it makes me feel like you are a horrible person, and someone I would never want to associate myself with.
Oh, and if you were trying to be clever with using the same line Lee said to Lilly("Well you don't have to be a bitch about it!"), then you failed. One, "bitch" is an insult generally used against women, and so you made an assumption that I was a woman. Since I'm not, it just makes me feel like laughing at you. Two, you censored it. If you're going to swear at me, what exactly is the point of censoring your insult?
I played through with Doug as well. Maybe she was sorry that she killed Doug, but if she killed Ben, her intended target, then she once more would not have felt an ounce of remorse. Doug only died because she was trying to kill Ben. She still deserved it.
Also, she still betrayed Lee. Oh, and if Lee DOES let her stay with them, she says that she'll let Lee come with her, but then, tells him to go get clementine, which turns out to be an excuse so that she can leave on her own. So she betrays him AGAIN in that scenario.
Either, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive her, but sure, if you and others can, then I agree with you that there should be the option.
I'm not at all saying it was right. Just that I wouldn't blame her for running from the group after that. She could've even rethought it and realised Lee could tell Kenny and keep her there. The thumbs down are unnecessary though. They show just how immature some people are. I know what Lilly does is horrible and am only saying I'd like it to be a choice to forget it or condemn her. I won't forgive her either. Just some other choice like "I won't bring that up if you don't. Keep your emotions in control this time and we leave it in the past." if she seems different in S2 at all
Why would I sympathize with a cold blooded killer that took the life of an innocent person when my action was nothing compared to hers?
Clem: I trusted a stranger who promised me that he'll help find my parent but he lied and the people that looked after me died.
Lilly: I killed someone that didn't do anything to me because I was angry.
How would there be sympathy if both actions are different, one has reason, the other doesn't. You sympathize with someone more if you did something similar, Clem would sympathize with Nick more than she would with Lilly.
At the time, she had no evidence or proof, only her word of mouth then she made the decision to execute him and it cost someone else their life. Kenny made it a group decision to decide whether to kick Ben out or not
because Ben "Confessed", Kenny had the full information while Lilly didn't. In the end Ben stayed and Kenny accepts it, that signal did mean for Lee to drop Ben but only because it looked like he can't be saved. And Celebrated? oh man, that gave me a good chuckle, did Kenny smile? did he put on a party hat? do you think he was happy?
In the end, did Kenny attempt to kill Ben even if there was a good reason to do so? No, Did Lilly attempt to kill Ben when there was nothing to go on? Yes, So they're not comparable. Lilly had no claim to begin with, Kenny lost his family due to Ben's stupidity, don't you think he has a better claim than Lilly?
If you mean the Larry situation then Kenny had his reason while Lilly didn't. I take it you're familiar with The Governor, would you say he has a chance at redeeming himself and becoming a better person?
Lilly is the one who is a sociopath, Thomas is a psychopath. The main discussion was that you believed a bad person needs to have plans to be labeled bad and I think it's been established that you don't need to have plans in order to be bad. She was angry & paranoid, are you telling me that took her morals away? You have to be an evil person to kill someone as kind as Carley and justify it afterwards then have the heart to leave your group for dead.
You forget that she was the one that arrogantly kept the group at the motel to begin with, yeah Kenny wanted to leave her which was a good idea, you know what Lilly does afterwards. She gave Clem hair clips, Andy St John built Clem a tree swing, does that mean he cared?
Yeah I read what you said. She decided to act without proof, we found out it was Ben afterwards but at that point, all she was doing is guessing.
Ben's an idiot but Lilly is as much to blame. She knew there were bandits lurking in the woods yet she made the decision to stay at the motel even when she was told it's not safe and Macon's been picked clean, Ben was scared of Lilly which is why he didn't say a thing after all he did tell Lee it was him but wouldn't to Lilly. Not to mention she did a terrible job watching the supplies if an idiot like Ben can steal it from under her nose. Ben is a moron, what's Lilly's excuse?
Actually the TV series is all about being able to come back. Rick came back with help from Hershel and everyone else. Carl came back with Rick focusing on being a father to him
Any St John was tricking the group. Lilly wasn't pretending to be kind when Lee isn't even right there just to kill the group one by one at all
Hey,don't call other people that word! They'll shoot you for it and be justified. And BRAVE.
groan
This length of this conversation is getting a bit ridiculous. Maybe we should take it to PMs or something.
Maybe not in the Carley case, but in the Doug case, both had reasons for doing what they did. Reasons that were both based on pretty flimsy evidence, sure, but they were both too bogged down by emotion to see things clearly.
Yes he did and yes he was. Did you watch the scene? Go back and look at Kenny's smug smile, cocked eyebrow, and listen to the tone of his voice. He was happy. I thought we'd already settled on that. Also, pay attention to what Kenny said: "Dumb son of bitch nearly got us all killed. Lee stepped up and did what he had to. That's what happened." Nothing about Ben being in an unsavable position. Just: "Ben's not here because he fucked up and Lee dropped him." That's how Kenny perceived the situation. And he was proud of it. That's pretty damn disgusting.
Kenny lost his family because a zombie got into the motor inn and happened to attack his kid. He blamed Ben for an event that was completely outside his control.
The problem is that you seem to think that Lilly's action on the side of the road was indicative of her personality all along and I think that's a simplistic view of things. I don't think Lilly would have done any of the things she did had she not lost her father so violently at the hand of another member of the group. Yes, the experience made her lose some of her morality, and it also warped her perception of things. When she shot Ben (and arguably when she shot Carley), she thought she was protecting the group by doing what she did. And you know what, if Kenny had thought that Ben was responsible for the bandit raid, he would have agreed.
The RV wasn't even fully fixed when the bandits arrived; they would have still been there regardless of Lilly's opinion. Does Kenny have fortune-telling powers that he expected Lilly to shoot Carley? Or did he just advocate to leave a woman behind as she was trying the fend off the bandits who had captured him and his family? And again, what Andy St. John did was done in order to get the group to trust him. There is no reason for Lilly giving Clem the hair ties other than that she wanted Clem to sleep more comfortably.
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I agree with you, but thumbs down aren't actually immature. I don't get why people on this forum have a problem with them. They're there to show if people agree or disagree. If people disagree, then they thumbs down. It's not like they're flagging your comment.
True. I'd just rather everyone chip in I suppose. Opinions are welcome so I'd just like to know why anyone would dislike a neutral POV. Agree though, I was in a silly mood yesterday
Clem did what she did out of love for her parents, Lilly did what she did out of hatred & anger yet you're trying to connect these two as if it had the same reason behind it and expected the same result.
You call that a smile? I didn't see any smile. I know what he said, still doesn't convince me he was gloating, how do you get "I'm happy Ben is dead" from those two sentences? He was telling it how it is, Ben's death resulted in his stupidity, to take the Axe from the door and he nearly got them all killed because of that. From Kenny's point of view, Lee was struggling to hold onto Ben and Ben told Lee to drop him and zombies were quickly making their way up, Kenny gave him that look "Either you die saving him or live by letting him go", Kenny didn't demand Lee to let him go. Whether you think he was gloating or not, he didn't kill Ben, didn't indirectly cause his death and doesn't even attempt to kill him after you pull him up. It seems your more disgusted by Kenny wanting someone dead with reason than Lilly killing someone without a reason. It's a normal reaction to want someone dead that caused the death of your family, you don't think Lilly wanted Kenny dead after he smashed her dads head with a salt lick? Do you think she would shed a tear or be sad when Kenny dies as you expect Kenny to do with Ben?
You mean like Lilly did? That happened because Ben kept his bandit dealing a secret, the bandit attack is what led the zombies to the motel which led to Duck getting bitten. Even Ben knows it was his fault.
She killed an innocent person in cold blood and was also an unreasonable bitch whether you're good to her or not, yet that isn't enough for you to see how much of a bad person she really is. And you use her dad's death as an excuse? she's not the only to lose someone she cares about and if others can refrain themselves from doing the things she did, what's her excuse? Yeah you can say it was her dad's death that might have caused her downfall but you can also say the same about The Governor if his brother wasn't killed but it doesn't take away the fact that he's an evil sadistic bastard. You may think she was protecting the group by murdering someone within her own group just like St Johns, The Governor, Negan protecting their own, doesn't make it right and the fact that she stabs the group in the back later on debunks this idea she ever cared. Kenny would've agreed to throw Ben out and that's it, even when Ben confesses later on after Duck & Katjaa's death, he doesn't kill him or even attempt to.
The RV just needed a jump start, it happens to a lot of vehicles, Kenny never mentioned anything about the RV needing a few more works in Episode 3. I like the way you say "Or did he just advocate to leave a woman behind as she was trying the fend off the bandits who had captured him and his family?" even though Lilly did the same but it seems your more angry with Kenny than Lilly, he wanted to leave Lilly who was hell bent on staying at the motel. You expect me to believe that she cared about Clem when she abandoned her, what would Lilly do with hair ties anyway? Give something away that is of no use to you + abandoning = loving caring person? You know that doesn't add up.
I don't recall Rick & Carl killing innocent people or leaving their group for dead.
Was it was an act of kindness when she kills someone for no reason, was it was an act of kindness when she outs you as a convicted killer and was it an act of kindness when she leaves you, Clementine and others to die by robbing the RV?
Carl shoots someone in S3. The scene is debatable even now. It shocked Rick into realising he needed to focus on being a father to Carl again and took away his gun, retired as the leader again. Carl was becoming ruthless like Rick who in turn was becoming like Shane. Carol also changed like this in S4. You also didn't comment on the point that the theme of the TV series is coming back from the horrible things done by characters. This is true in the comic and game
I didn't say Lilly would scheme to leave with a big plan or anything. I said in that situation she could've ran for the hills because she wasn't discovered yet. The group could've left if they wanted, Lilly wasn't declaring martial law. Yes optional does count. Lee killed Larry, why should she help? Lee helped her, she'll help against Danny, guard Clem, help against Andy. It counts, same as Kenny throwing away your entire friendship and letting Lee be attacked all because Lee wouldn't smash a man'sface
If you at all try putting yourself in a similar situation, you'd see it. Desperate people do desperate things. Carley was murder I agree. Doug was murder. Both horrible. The only discrepancy is I rewatched both and noticed the drastically different facial expressions. Carley you see Lilly's face become incredibly angry and she slowly draws the gun, then after her face she seems blank like she doesn't care. Good reason to hate her. With Doug in my playthrough, the shot lingers on her shocked face expression instead and she slowly shakes her head like she can't believe it was Doug. She doesn't deserve forgiveness because that'd be an insult to whomever she shot. She could instead redeem herself and Clem could agree or threaten to not mention itto others if Lilly truly is different. Then say if she steps out of line even once in a similar way, Clem tells everyone the truth
You know that down votes ONLY mean 'I disagree' right? They don't mean 'I dislike you' or 'I think you are a terrible person.' When people aren't confident or bothered enough to write replies (or just can't think of anything good to write, or don't have time, etc), that's what the upvote/downvote system is for, as well as so if another person has already written the same thing, you can just go, hey I agree! instead of filling the thread with the same opinion over and over (which in itself is fine if people are just having fun in a slapstick fun thread like in the walking dead meme thread, but pretty annoying if it happens when people are trying to make progress in a discussion about a particular topic. The few people on this forum that still do take offense from down-votes, really need to stop taking offense when others disagree with them through the thumb system. It either means you didn't articulate your ideas properly, you offended someone, or they just don't think you are correct. It doesn't mean they hate you or you have to hate them. It's also a way to show your disapproval of trolls without feeding them and ruining threads with tons of stop derailing the thread/harassing people' replies that derail the thread when the troll stirs up more trouble and multiplies the problem.
And like I said, she needed the group, they were the ones that kept her alive, what are the chances of her finding another group that she can boss to find her food? Your saying that she had the right to let you die because you kill her dad with a reason but your saying she should be helped after she kills Doug/Carley without any reason.
There's 50/50 chance that the person was good or bad, remember, he was part of the group that attacked the prison, some people say he was bad because he didn't put down his gun when told to do so but Carl thought that person, Lilly knew damn well that Ben/Carley were not a threat. Unless Rick shot someone in the leg and used him as zombie bait then he'd be just like Shane and I don't like Rick or Carl but they have nothing on Lilly. You say Carl was ruthless, even after his mom died, he helped save Michonne & Tyreese's group from being eaten by zombies, remember Lilly wanted to leave Lee, Clementine and Kenny's family out to be eaten. And I never liked Carol anyway, sh can't tell the difference between self defense & cold blooded murder.
Lilly murdering is now a sign of desperation? that's your excuse for her? Unless she was desperate to shoot someone to satisfy her trigger finger if that's what you mean. Yeah, desperate people do desperate things but nothing like that, even desperate people know their limits and not cross the line and I don't see myself doing what she did and there were times when I was desperate.
Finally you get it, this is what I've been telling you.
OK, put yourself in Clems situation. You're in a rule free apocalyptic world and a crazy bitch you've known for 3 months shoots your best friend who has done a lot for you and saved you more times than you can imagine and hasn't given anyone a reason to hate him and in return, he gets murdered in cold blood and you somehow take pity on the bitch only for her to stab you in the back, what would you do when you see her again?
And more importantly what would you say to your deceased friend?
"Hey bro, I'm gonna give that woman that took your life away a second chance to redeem herself after the first chance she was given but ended up stabbing me in the back even though she killed you for no reason and didn't give a flying fuck about what she did especially after you done so much for her and me and others but she's not a bad person, everybody makes mistakes similar to a bartender giving you a wrong drink order even if that mistake cost your life and you're never gonna experience life again, I'm hoping I become her friend again, Peace!"
Clementine might as well say something similar to Lee, Kenny, Ben, Carley/Doug, Duck and Katjaa if she even considers giving Lilly a chance. I'm not saying Clem should kill her on the spot(As much as I want that) but man I don't want to see her having the option to be nice to her and give her a chance to redeem herself, she should give her a hard time and expose her as the cowardly, self-entitled, cold hearted murdering degenerate witch that she really is.
Firstly, the desperation thing is about her stealing the RV, sorry if I wrote it awkwardly. Secondly, I've always said she shouldn't be forgiven for murder, trust me. I said she deserves the opportunity to redeem herself. Not be forgiven, just the opportunity to change herself after what she's done. The two aren't interchangeable. I'm not exactly a fan of looking at the world in a depressing "Crim is irredeemable" way. I prefer to look for good in others. Lilly isn't some serial killer yet. Far as we know she's killed one person. Yes a horrible deed. If she isn't making it a habit though, she could change. This isn't exactly a direct comparison but it helps my POV I think. In another story: SPOILERS for Assassin's Creed 1
When Altair egotistically and thoughtlessly gets his friend Malik's younger brother killed in the prologue AND in the same situation is the reason Malik himself loses his arm, Malik loathes and despises him for it for a long time. When Altair realises what he's done and over the course of time becomes wise and humble, he apologises to Malik, knowing he can't ever truly repent for it. Malik says he doesn't even need to apologise, for he is "Not the same man" he was then. Different situations yes, but redemption is an opportunity for Lilly if Telltale want her to come back
True. The point is it shocked Rick into realising his son is changing because of him and he doesn't like these changes at all. I'm notat all saying Carl is ruthless, I'm saying the proven point is Rick decided Carl is changing too much and becoming too violent, much like Becca in 400 Days. You never liked Carol in the entire TV series because she killed in S4? She wouldn't ever do such a thing like that before S4 so that doesn't make sense. Rick was ruthless, in the comic he amputates his new lover's arm as he runs away from a herd with her, Carl and her son. He doesn't even try to drag her away from her son, he amputates her arm and leaves them both there. He's come back. Lilly didn't WANT to leave the group. She could've even seen it this way: Stay and debatably be killed, or use the RV to escape them
You're missing the point by far. I said if she was a murderous coward, or desperate, she could've easily ran away and at least tried it alone. She stayed instead. You're right I'm saying if I were her and someone smashed Larry's face, I wouldn't want to help them. Would you? I mean like without any group mentality survivalist bs. With the emotional turmoil of seeing Larry killed by Kenny, held back by Lee, all the while being hunted by cannibals, would you even be able to process much, let alone even care if Kenny or Lee are killed? I'm not even saying we should actively help Lilly after Carley and Doug either. She's free to redeem herself if she wants. See? I'm not saying give her a welcoming hug and invite her in for tea. Just give her the opportunity, don't murder her before we even know if she's different now. That could even start a group war if she's with others OR give Rebecca even more anti Clementine ammo
No matter how much they were changing, they do have a line not to cross. I was not fond of Carol in Season 1, Season 2 I lost it with her when she tried pitting Daryl against Rick, Season 3 she was useless and I find it funny that people call Beth useless when she at least did something, Season 4 she's scum, a loose canon that endangers herself and others and insults two people she killed by comparing them to Tomas, Shane, Dave & Tony, Like Lilly I don't get the appeal for Carol.
Rick had a reason for what he did, he had to amputate his lover Jessie Anderson's arm because she was dragging his son towards an agonizing death of being eaten, you can see that he was in tears for what he was about to do because he cared so much about her but he had to do it to save his son from the same faith, he knew she was dead the moment she was grabbed and was being chomped on, he tried dragging her away from her son but a mothers love for her child is too strong to drag away. He felt like shit for what he did and he even went to her grave to mourn for her. How can you even call that ruthless? That's harsh don't you think. And I've said this before, this is the same group that were horrified when Andy St John gets kicked onto the electric fence so why would she think they would kill her, if she wanted to leave, leave on foot instead of taking a vehicle and leaving Clementine, Duck & Katjaa and Lee(depending) for dead, I doubt they'll bother chasing after her.
If she was so desperate to get away than leave on foot, why punish the people she seemingly cares about. Whether she was desperate or not(And I believe she was not), still doesn't change the fact that it was a shitty thing. The Hunters from the comics, those sick motherfuckers were so desperate for food, they resorted to cannibalism but it wont change the fact what they did was so sick. There's reasons for every desperation, The Hunters wanted food to satisfy their hunger, what was Lilly's reasoning? There is none. She's not a serial killer but she's still a murderer and that one person she killed was a good person that even showed concerns for her.
ASSASSIN'S CREED SPOILERS
Whether you see it this way or not, Altair didn't kill Malik's brother Kadar with his hand, yes his bad decision did but it was never his intention to hurt him and cost him his life. He was arrogant and cocky and thought he can take on Robert De Sable and the Templar's but didn't expect how powerful Robert was and threw Altair out of the room, Altair tried to get back to help Malik & Kadar but couldn't so he had no choice to go to Al Mualim. Malik forgave him because Altair never wanted his brother to lose his life and his arm and didn't think that it would go that far because he had a high rank from a young age, I don't think Malik would forgive Altair if he stabbed Kadar in the face, killing him because Kadar called him a bitch. You're acting like Lilly didn't know what would happen if she shot someone, did she think the bullet was going to bounce off Carley/Doug? Regardless of how he presented it, Altair had good intentions, what good intention did Lilly have when she shot someone mercilessly?