Winston
I didn't know how evil this guy is!
I played season 2 episode 1 again and checked a few different things out, the fight against Winston is
easy so you don't really see what happens if you lose to him. So I didn't press any buttons when he first comes after you, there are no walkers around so you won't get eaten. If you do this then Winston grabs Clementines leg and drags her towards the other scavengers and they say to Winston to forget about the girl and just take care of her. Winston then says "Gladly!" and pulls a gun out and shoots Clementine in the head.
I thought he was just trying to kidnap Clem, but he goes and kills her in cold blood. These guys truly are evil!
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jesus, are you f*cking kidding me?!
His lines were great
You mean his line.
Lyin' Bitch !
Kid, you're on my last fucking nerve!
I had another thread where I asked some people if they thought we should take non-canon deaths as evidence of a characters personality.
It was pretty one sided in that we should not, because in the actual game he never did kill her. We don't know what his true intentions were. The scene of him killing her was there because they needed a way to give you a game over.
Another person gave a good example of why noncanon deaths shouldn't be taken seriously. In ME3 if you let Shields kills you and don't continue the game, then they killed you, they were the bad guys who ended you and that was the end of the game. If you pressed continue and passed them then they were just more enemies you killed before the end of the game with no real significance.
Noncanon is noncanon for a reason.
In this case "noncanon" merely refers to avoiding a certain fate. That optional death where Winston shoots Clem is there to remove any doubts about the sort of men Clem and Christa were dealing with.
Noncanon in this case means it is not part of the original story. In the story she is not killed by these men, we don't know what their intentions were other than finding the rest of Christa's group.
If you stopped the game after the men killed you, and never went past that death scene, then by all means consider it canon and you know what their intentions were.
Seeing as most everyone passed that part then those scenes never happened. They are not part of the story and cannot be taken as if they had happened, because they didn't.
Theory time!
Winston's urged to dispose of Clementine quickly by a frantic Victor because I'm pretty sure Carver's group found them at that point and they needed to hurry.
His original intent was to probably question her, or something.
Pay close attention... No one in Winston's trio was carrying a rifle, there were only two pistols, one on Ralph, and one on Victor.
And yet, when Christa starts to run, we hear a RIFLE shot soundbite in the distance.
I'm thinking that at point, someone who'd heard the commotion from far away, much like Clem, came to see what it was all about and saved Christa by shooting Ralph [who likely dies at that point, explaining why he's not found with Victor in the river bank]. Then Victor, realizing someone had the upper hand on him [his handgun vs someone's rifle in the distance] , turns tail and starts running after Winston to warn him they should forget the girl and run.
What we see when Clementine fails to get away is Victor successfuly catching up to Winston and then they both run away.
If Clementine wins, Victor finds a dead Winston [explains why Winston's spear ended up at the river, Victor takes it for himself], and then makes a run for it on his own.
Then, he ultimately ends up being tracked down by Carver and killed on that river bank.
The rifle situation was laid to rest a long time ago with Kat in the woods.
I do, however, follow this theory. I like it and it makes perfect sense.
tbh pride i really like your theory i dont say that alot but yours actually makes too much sense to be just stumbled upon and forgoten right after
With that logic any information about a character that I don't see because I didn't choose a certain dialogue option isn't canon either. At least not until the story sees fit to bring it up again. It's not a big leap to assume these guys intended harm when Christa gets stabbed/shot at for merely lying or attempting to escape.
I wish Telltale would be consistent with their gunshot soundbites!
It makes all the difference when thinking up a theory :P
Great, I agree with everything you just said except for the being killed part, I don't think he died and I actually think there is a high chance he is this mystery person but other than you make a lot of sense
ImImpressed
That logic is correct to a point. That is why Clem cannot mention Rebecca's baby if she didn't hide. The difference is that all the different dialogue choices are canon, they will get you to the end of the story. For example, Lee, when he is talking to Brenda, can be shot for saying the wrong dialogue. That is not canon because if you do say them you cannot continue to the end, the moment you restart and say the correct lines those deaths never happened, they are not part of the story, I cannot blame Brenda for murdering Lee because she never did.
It is not a leap to come to that conclusion, I agree. The point is you don't know that for a fact. No matter how big or small the leap is it is still a leap with only circumstantial evidence to back it up. Obviously Clementine thought they had bad inentions or she would not have run. The fact they stabbed Christa and tried to catch Clem should be your only reason they were bad people, as they never killed Clementine.
Yeah they are usually pretty good about the small details. Not this time though lol.
I like that idea, makes a whole lot of sense. Could also explain why hear 3 (I think) shots when Christa legs it.
I agree on the point that if a certain scenario never happened then the scenario itself is obviously not canon. However, the implications of those outcomes being possible should be taken into consideration when evaluating the personalities of the characters involved, IMO. If they wanted to leave Winston's intentions ambiguous they could've limited the game over deaths to Walkers or falling and hitting her head on a rock, etc. Having a character shoot a child after saying "Gladly" doesn't leave much to the imagination on the other hand.
Again, that never happened. He never said that, and he never shot her. If it hasn't happened then we cannot attribute it to his personality. You agree yet directly contradict yourself by saying even though the action did not happen we should consider the meaning behind the action themselves as if they happened.
It's like saying "If that man were to set a house on fire he would be an arsanist and probably a bad person" (oh god the spelling errors). Even though he has never set a house on fire.
"C'mere you little bitch!"
Personality doesn't just come down to what you do. You're basically saying that the only thing worth considering is what happens and not what could happen. Which is painfully at odds with the story itself and why Christa avoids groups in the first place.
You're basically boiling down what a person is to just actions and not what may be going on in their head.
What could possibly happen? I could kill my dog. But seeing as I am not going to do that I don't think possibly doing it speaks about my personality. We decide what a personality is by how the character acts and what they do. If they don't do something or don't act in a certain way (the second is only marginally applicable) then how can we apply this to their personality?
We base what is going on in someones head (especially in a non-narrative story) by what they say, do, and how they act. The entire scene is rended null and void since it did not happen, if the action never happened, the thought process is never conveyed, and even what he said is never said, then there is no reason we should connect it with what did actually happen.
I'm basically boiling it down to what happened and what didn't happen. If it didn't go on in his head then how can you say it went on in his head and then apply it to his known personality?
EDIT: Non-narrorated
Jesus are you fucking kidding me my favorite quote of his and sadly his only one.
Actions don't exist in a vacuum. The dog example is vague as hell. You just pose an action without giving any circumstances or explaining what would inform your behavior in said circumstances.
The outcome with Winston can be examined in the context of what we know about the TWD world. It's a zombie apocalypse where society has crumbled and a dog eat dog mentality is prevalent. Judging by the Christa scene and chase we can determine that Winston may have such a mentality. As such, the outcome seems completely within the realm of possibility for his character. Simple.
Is it possible that Telltale didn't intend for people to read anything into it? Sure. I disagree though.
STOP FUCKING KICKING
Oh, you're right,thanks for reminding me of the extra gunshot! I think it went like this:
When you try to distract the scavengers, you see Christa start running , then the camera turns away and you hear a handgun shot sound followed by her screaming and a strange sound which could be of someone hitting the ground hard [she was probably shot in the leg so she'd stop running], and THEN shortly after that you hear the rifle shot that presumably kills Ralph.
Note that in this first scene you hear a handgun soundbite and a rifle one soon afterwards. It seems like they bothered to use specific gun soundbites for this scene, so maybe,unlike Katja's scene, they paid attention this time and really did mean the last shot to be specifically a rifle's ?
And in the alternate choice, when you try to sneak away, she gets stabbed in the leg by Winston's spear before he goes after Clem, which causes her to not try to run and you ONLY hear the rifle gunshot when the camera turns away, no handgun , screaming, or hitting the ground [because the scavengers didn't need to shoot her with their handguns since she couldn't run]
So there you have it, either way she gets a leg injure [handgun or spear] and ends up being saved by a person with a rifle.
On second thought, check out my reply to uberbyford a little below this!
Kid your on my last fucking nerve!
"The outcome with Winston can be examined in the context of what we know about the TWD world." We went over this already, it isn't a huge leap to come to the conclusion his intentions were bad and may be so bad as muder. It is still a leap with only circumstantial evidence. We can assume he has a bad mentality from him chasing Clem and stabbing Christa, that was stated long ago. What we can't take into consideration as pointing to him being a bad person is him murdering Clem, as again it didn't happen. I am not arguing it is outside his character, but you can't say it was in his character from a non-canon scene that never happened in the story.
My dog example was pretty vague. That doesn't mean it doesn't directly link and do a good job of linking the message that because something is possible doesn't mean it is going to happen. And that because a person could do something doesn't mean they will, or that the possibility of it happening has any indication of their personality.
Agree to disagree then.
Sounds good. Thanks for the conversation. All your posts get a thumbs up from me and I can't wait to see you in the next thread.
That is a good theory I've shared before the idea of CHrista being in Carver's group so I agree with this
Ah it's two and a fall then. Very sound theory, adds a whole new level of depth to a scene that I'd just taken at face value.
Makes sense that she survives for some point later in the series as there's at least one "Christa will remember that" which to my mind implies a return a way down the line.
Definitely interesting. I can't put to much faith in the hand gun vs rifle situation to much since TT already messed up once, but it makes sense.
Imagine that when they meet again, Clem will be with the cabin group, and Christa will be in Carver's group after being rescued.
It would cause a great deal of misunderstanding!
Rebecca: "Wait, so the "friend" you were with that you told us about before is that woman we saw in Carver's group?"
Clem: "She wasn't with them before! I swear! "
Rebecca : "Bullshit! I always knew you were working with Carver! We should never have trusted you!"
It would look very bad for Clem!
Cool. the only complaint i have with these deaths is the one at 2:11. so the walker decided to bend down and eat clem first?
Actually yes, if Christa is in Carver's group and the house group knows about this Clem will be seen as a spy or something.
That would also create a tense situation where Clem and CHrista will have to choose with whom they go with the group that saved them or one of them changes sides so they can be together.
I'm asusming Carver is a Shane kind off charatcher, so it wouldn't be hard for someone lost like Christa to trust him, specially since he or his group saved her.
A lot of tough choices in the brewing!