Just because people like a game doesn't mean that it was good.
How were they different from Season 1 minus the decreased presence of hubs and puzzles? Again, I'm not defending the Glassdoor reviews or trying to deflect from that, I'm just curious how you mean that?
The games did also get good reviews from critics as well:
If you mean they didn't all win 90 GOTY Awards like Season 1 did or average at an 89 or higher on Metacritic, I would attribute that to Season 1 having gameplay that was new and unique at the time. Not to mention, expecting every game after to have the exact same level of acclaim of Walking Dead: Season 1 is somewhat of an obtuse standard. High reviews in general definitely are not an "obtuse standard" before anyone says anything, but what I mean is implying that each game after is a failure for not having 90 GOTY awards is a bit extreme.
If people liking something doesn't indicate it being good, what standards are you going by then?
Just because people like a game doesn't mean that it was good. 400 Days was made by the same team as season 1, but it was just like season 2… more, and Tales and Wolf had some of the same problems too, though Tales to a lesser extent. These games being the way they are is a result of executives who don't know what they're doing having more creative input on a project than the people actually working on the game.
I will say though, it is quite odd that Tales from the Borderlands turned out good when I know what I know from the Glassdoor reviews. It makes me wonder just how/why Tales from the Borderlands turned out as good as it did.
Choices don't matter (this varies in severity and I would say Tales tries to improve on this)
As you mention, lack of hubs and puzzles
Underdeveloped characters with wasted potential
implying that each game after is a failure for not having 90 GOTY awards is a bit extreme.
I'm not one of those people, and just so we're clear, I agree with you about everything else. And in case you didn't know, Sean Vanaman said in an interview that season 1 of The Walking Dead being the way it was was to make it unique among Telltale's other games, and that he didn't expect it to be the formula that they would adapt for every other game after it.
If people liking something doesn't indicate it being good, what standards are you going by then?
By what the game actually is. This is an off-topic example, but it's the best one I can think of off the top of my head so it's what I'm going with. Bioshock Infinite removes several gameplay elements from previous Bioshock games and waters down the few that are left, most of the gameplay is just fighting enemies and moving on to the next area, and there's little to no exploration due to this linear structure, it's easier than previous games which were not that difficult to begin with, and the story is full of plot holes, especially the ending. And yet lots of people really like the game and it has high reviews all around. It perfectly shows, to me, that reviews are not always indicative of how good a game actually is.
Just because people like a game doesn't mean that it was good.
How were they different from Season 1 minus the decreased presence of… more hubs and puzzles? Again, I'm not defending the Glassdoor reviews or trying to deflect from that, I'm just curious how you mean that?
The games did also get good reviews from critics as well:
Walking Dead: Season 1 Metacritic Score: 89
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-walking-dead-a-telltale-games-series
Wolf Among Us Metacritic Score: 80
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-wolf-among-us
Tales from the Borderlands Metacritic Score: 85
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/tales-from-the-borderlands-a-telltale-game-series
If you mean they didn't all win 90 GOTY Awards like Season 1 did or average at an 89 or higher on Metacritic, I would attribute that to Season 1 having gameplay that was new and unique at the time. Not to mention, expecting every game after to have the exact same leve… [view original content]
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
What people say they liked about TWD Season 1/what Telltale concluded people had liked
90 minute episodes was more of a "meta" design choice of Telltale as was less hubs and puzzles, but otherwise, those are fair points.
I was trying to touch upon it in my earlier posts, but yeah - I agree with that point you brought up from Sean that Walking Dead's unique nature from other Telltale titles is part of what made the game great. As I said earlier, it's fair to get that they would want tailored story telling to be a part of their future titles, but I still wish they would broaden their horizons in terms of their palette of interactive elements from a game mechanics point of view.
I think it's kind of the equivalent of movie executives getting the wrong idea of why something was successful - even if it leads to other good products down the line, they kind of missed out on some of the finer details of why something was a success. Walking Dead: Season 1 was a more intimate and down to earth role playing game with a choice system tailored to fit the source material, and Telltale ended up really only seeing it as an interactive TV show/movie. We still have gotten some really cool things in the time that has passed, but man, I would really love for Telltale to embrace the same mindset they had during Season 1 where they tailored the template to the source material, instead of their current thought process of tailoring the source material to fit the choice based template.
Unfortunately, most people nowadays are only fans of either old or modern Telltale but not both, so you don't really see a lot of people articulating the change in design, thought process, etc, outside of what is present at face value like the removal of puzzles from their older games. This leads to people thinking that Walking Dead: Season 1 was designed towards "core" gamers as what was meant to be a typical video game (with the mindset that it was everything after like Wolf, Season 2, etc that intitially started the push towards more causal games), whereas in reality, it was a push started by Telltale a good few years before Walking Dead: Season 1 even premiered. Earlier games such as Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, Wallace and Gromit, etc. were also experimenting with changes to make their games more casual and cinematic, and Walking Dead: Season 1 was actually pretty far towards the end of the process of Telltale changing up their formula to make it more cinematic and accessible towards a wide audience.
I've proposed this idea in other posts before - I think a separation between a "story" mode and an "adventure"/"immersion" mode would be cool - "story" mode would be your traditional 90-120 minute Telltale episode with choice making, and "immersion" mode would give you the same choices/story/etc but would also add more hub areas as well as some extra gameplay relevant to the franchise or source material; this could be puzzles, certain ways of interacting with the environment, etc.
How were they different from Season 1
* 90 minutes long
* Choices don't matter (this varies in severity and I would say Tales t… moreries to improve on this)
* As you mention, lack of hubs and puzzles
* Underdeveloped characters with wasted potential
implying that each game after is a failure for not having 90 GOTY awards is a bit extreme.
I'm not one of those people, and just so we're clear, I agree with you about everything else. And in case you didn't know, Sean Vanaman said in an interview that season 1 of The Walking Dead being the way it was was to make it unique among Telltale's other games, and that he didn't expect it to be the formula that they would adapt for every other game after it.
If people liking something doesn't indicate it being good, what standards are you going by then?
By what the game actually is. This is an off-topic example, but it's the best one I can think of off the top … [view original content]
Does anyone know the reason why TTG changed the camera point of view so up close to the playable characters? It's so close it is impossible to feel like your in a open environment. Even on the boat it felt completly cramped.
I just keep circling back to TWD season 1.... In the first episode alone you had the car ride, escape the wreck, clementines house, Hershel's farm, drug store, motor inn, back to drug store........
The reason why TWD S1 was a huge hit is TTG took the best of what they do and added amazing stories and emotional elements...... Why they screwed with the secret formula for success is a mystery..... Certainly no good CEO would turn his or her back on the company roots like this.....
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
Why Telltale changed things after TWD Season 1 that some people had liked
I wouldn't really say "TWD Season 1 is the company's roots", but I would say it is their first successful title on a large scale. As I said, a lot of newer Telltale fans think Season 1 was designed as a core game and think that Wolf/Season 2/etc were just the result of Telltale trying to earn more money by making their titles more accessible after the success of Season 1, but actually, it was a part of an incremental design process that started years before, as far back as around 2008-2010, where Telltale wanted their games to be more accessible and story focused to a general audience.
Walking Dead was the result of Telltale being ambitious and massive changing their formula from their older games by adding things like choice making, so to them - as I touched upon before - they view choice making as their "secret formula" - and they aren't entirely wrong. If they always "stuck to their roots," we'd have never gotten experimental games like Walking Dead, Borderlands, etc. The problem mainly lies in that Telltale has untapped potential they are sitting on because they are pushing for their games to play out like interactive movies instead of pushing for a more immersive, role-playing type experience kind of like what people found in Season 1.
The reason why TWD S1 was a huge hit is TTG took the best of what they do and added
In their eyes, the "best of what they did" was either confusing to their modern audience (puzzles) or slowed down the pacing of the story (hubs, or once again, puzzles) after they saw how successful the choice system had made Season 1 of Walking Dead. Most people liked Season 1 because it was an intimate role playing experience that was tailored to fit the Walking Dead source material, and Telltale interpreted their success as people wanting more games that were interactive cinema with Walking Dead's choice system, except with different types of dialogue choices to make depending on the franchise. That's really all there is too it. At this point, if you want to make a difference, voice your feedback on the forums or social media and hope Telltale listens - and do make sure to emphasize you are a modern fan so they don't dismiss you as being an old fan who only wants puzzle games back.
Does anyone know the reason why TTG changed the camera point of view so up close to the playable characters? It's so close it is impossible … moreto feel like your in a open environment. Even on the boat it felt completly cramped.
I just keep circling back to TWD season 1.... In the first episode alone you had the car ride, escape the wreck, clementines house, Hershel's farm, drug store, motor inn, back to drug store........
The reason why TWD S1 was a huge hit is TTG took the best of what they do and added amazing stories and emotional elements...... Why they screwed with the secret formula for success is a mystery..... Certainly no good CEO would turn his or her back on the company roots like this.....
Depending on the context and the source material, the inclusion of puzzles can help some (but not all games). There are other ways to tell tales besides dialogue choices and QTEs, just as there are also other ways to tell tales besides puzzles.
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
Why episodes take longer to release after Season 1 of Walking Dead
I should probably add that the extended waiting periods for episodes of newer Telltale series after Season 1 was another result of Season 1's success. With older Telltale games, Telltale prioritized punctuality with monthly episode releases. However, during Season 1's earlier episodes, Telltale mentioned holding back Episode 102 to revise the presentation or design of later episodes with updates to the choice system as well as carrying over last minute design choices from the first episode (such as (?) Will Remember That or the choice screen at the end of each episode). Once they saw the positive reception for Episode 2 which was strengthened by the updates they made during the small time they held the episode back, they carried this over into further episodes throughout the first Season by changing the context choices or story elements were presented in, by modifying cinematography, camera angles, dialogue, etc to make choices less binary and more difficult to make.
Just as 90 minute episodes are not caused by Telltale working on multiple games, things like longer waiting periods after Season 1 are also not the result of multiple projects (Telltale had worked on multiple Seasons at once prior to Walking Dead, and Walking Dead: Season 1 was one of several upcoming projects Telltale had at the time of its announcement. Look at this blog post from February 2011 and think about how modern Telltale fans would react if they announced five more new projects in one blog post today on top of three other current/upcoming games they had announced beforehand...) Rather, the long waiting periods in the series that have come since are from Telltale repeating another part of what they saw worked during Season 1 - holding back episodes a little while based off of feedback and discussion on social media, except back then it was to a lesser extent. Then, they would change scenes so that Clementine would be present, or they would change the characterization of people like Ben, Larry, etc, so that choices were tougher to make instead of players being inclined to automatically save someone or hate them.
However, whereas revisions for Season 1 were minor in scale and meant to clarify a vision they had committed to from the start, it seems their current revisions from series since are more focused on changing or adding to the story in moderate capacities instead, such as shipping jokes in Borderlands as an example. As a result of them seeing the positive response to minor changes made live in production during Season 1, they amped it up further and started making larger changes to the series that have since passed, and in the process, leaving larger portions of the story vulnerable to changes or additions from fan feedback. That is why Wolf, Borderlands, Season 2, Thrones, etc have had longer waiting periods than Season 1 - not because Telltale works on multiple games at once. It's just Telltale being experimental and trying to push further towards repeating what they feel had made Season 1 unique and special compared to their previous titles. (Thankfully, Telltale has since expressed interest in returning to monthly releases with series like Minecraft, Michonne, and potentially other future series...)
I'm not saying this entirely as a criticism of Telltale, I'm just using this as a chance to explain what some may see as either controversial design choices, and what others may mistakenly conclude are consequences of Telltale working on more than one game at once.
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
Why episodes take longer to relea… morese after Season 1 of Walking Dead
I should probably add that the extended waiting periods for episodes of newer Telltale series after Season 1 was another result of Season 1's success. With older Telltale games, Telltale prioritized punctuality with monthly episode releases. However, during Season 1's earlier episodes, Telltale mentioned holding back Episode 102 to revise the presentation or design of later episodes with updates to the choice system as well as carrying over last minute design choices from the first episode (such as (?) Will Remember That or the choice screen at the end of each episode). Once they saw the positive reception for Episode 2 which was strengthened by the updates they made during the small time they held the episode back, they carried this over into further episodes througho… [view original content]
I usually don't go on like that. These long posts are basically me just releasing my pent up frustration from seeing people in general act like things such as 90 minute episodes/long waiting periods/removal of puzzles/etc are the result of Telltale being lazy, occupied with multiple projects, or cutting corners out of greed, when in reality, it's just Telltale trying to replicate parts of what they think worked from Season 1. Some of their changes have worked, some still need working on. In other ways, it's also me venting on how I personally feel Telltale has their hearts in the right place, but makes judgements that I personally feel are sometimes misguided. [Mods are not Telltale staff; our opinions are our own]
I definitely don't agree with everything they've done as a result of them interpreting their success from Season 1 (such as 90 minute episodes), but I just wanted to clear the air as opposed to seeing people continue to complain that Telltale working on two games at once with 330+ people as opposed to one game with 60-90 people is why we have shorter episodes coming out at longer periods, and then blame it on Jake/Sean leaving as if they are the only two good writers Telltale ever had. I'm not defending those choices - I'm just clarifying why those choices are being made.
If people are going to complain about certain choices, I at least figure it would help to explain the rationale behind why Telltale deliberately makes those choices so the scapegoating towards Jake/Sean leaving or Telltale working on multiple games instead of one single game stops. That, and it helps when you have other stuff to procrastinate on. :P
I just want to go and record again, and say that I hate this line of thinking
I want to be sorry about saying that, but I don't think there's much to be sorry about when all this line of thinking does is provide a lazy excuse as to why you don't like Telltale's games as much these days, and to undervalue the work of everyone else at Telltale, as well as idolize Sean and Jake like they're a couple of paragons of game development
I mean, when you think about it, that kind of doubles as an insult to Telltale themselves, and by extension, everyone that works there. It's like you're implying that S1 was only as good as it was because of these two guys, and that because these two guys left, Telltale will never make a game of the same quality again. Yeah, screw all those other designers, directors, writers, and artists who also worked on the game and helped make it what it was, Sean and Jake did all the work! And screw all those people that worked on S1 that still work at the company to this day, without Sean and Jake this game would be nothing!
And that line of thinking right there can just fuck right off, pardon the french
I usually don't go on like that. These long posts are basically me just releasing my pent up frustration from seeing people in general act l… moreike things such as 90 minute episodes/long waiting periods/removal of puzzles/etc are the result of Telltale being lazy, occupied with multiple projects, or cutting corners out of greed, when in reality, it's just Telltale trying to replicate parts of what they think worked from Season 1. Some of their changes have worked, some still need working on. In other ways, it's also me venting on how I personally feel Telltale has their hearts in the right place, but makes judgements that I personally feel are sometimes misguided. [Mods are not Telltale staff; our opinions are our own]
I definitely don't agree with everything they've done as a result of them interpreting their success from Season 1 (such as 90 minute episodes), but I just wanted to clear the air as opposed to seeing people continue to complain… [view original content]
people seem to forget wolf and tales were well written. now i have not played got or mine craft yet so i have no opinion on those. but those two are as good if not better then season 1 of twd.
and as blind said the puzzle aspect was slowly being taken out as late as back to the future. heck Jurassic park is pretty mch the prototype for the current era of telltale minus choices.
and season 2 did not start the whole 90 minute thing either that was the last episode of season 1. everything you have issue with in season 2 [ no hubs, can't talk to party member, etc] starts there.
I remember really being worried tales from the borderlands was going to be 90 minutes and one pov was going to have more screen time then the other. did that happen? nope each episode is 2 hours, has hubs and you can talk to people on down time. so it's not like telltale can't do it anymore.
the scapegoating towards Jake/Sean leaving
I just want to go and record again, and say that I hate this line of thinking
I want t… moreo be sorry about saying that, but I don't think there's much to be sorry about when all this line of thinking does is provide a lazy excuse as to why you don't like Telltale's games as much these days, and to undervalue the work of everyone else at Telltale, as well as idolize Sean and Jake like they're a couple of paragons of game development
I mean, when you think about it, that kind of doubles as an insult to Telltale themselves, and by extension, everyone that works there. It's like you're implying that S1 was only as good as it was because of these two guys, and that because these two guys left, Telltale will never make a game of the same quality again. Yeah, screw all those other designers, directors, writers, and artists who also worked on the game and helped make it what it was, Sean and Jake d… [view original content]
Does anyone know the reason why TTG changed the camera point of view so up close to the playable characters? It's so close it is impossible … moreto feel like your in a open environment. Even on the boat it felt completly cramped.
I just keep circling back to TWD season 1.... In the first episode alone you had the car ride, escape the wreck, clementines house, Hershel's farm, drug store, motor inn, back to drug store........
The reason why TWD S1 was a huge hit is TTG took the best of what they do and added amazing stories and emotional elements...... Why they screwed with the secret formula for success is a mystery..... Certainly no good CEO would turn his or her back on the company roots like this.....
I wasn't aware that Sean Vanaman and Jake Rodkin created puzzles and hubs
You know, I could have sworn Telltale was already doing that before the two of them even started working there
Well Firewatch doesn't exactly look like it's going to be getting over 90 GOTY nominations by the end of the year either, so what's the point you're trying to make here exactly
You really can't fault them for changing their format from puzzle based gameplay to story based gameplay when the former was never very successful for them, but the latter was very successful and put them on the map. They need to do what makes money.
I would also argue that the "puzzles" in TWD season 1 were so simple that their inclusion wasn't necessarily a good thing, they were just kind of there. If you want games with puzzles, The Walking Dead was never meant as a game to fulfil that.
Well Firewatch doesn't exactly look like it's going to be getting over 90 GOTY nominations by the end of the year either, so what's the point you're trying to make here exactly
You really can't fault them for changing their format from puzzle based gameplay to story based gameplay when the former was never very succ… moreessful for them, but the latter was very successful and put them on the map. They need to do what makes money.
I would also argue that the "puzzles" in TWD season 1 were so simple that their inclusion wasn't necessarily a good thing, they were just kind of there. If you want games with puzzles, The Walking Dead was never meant as a game to fulfil that.
The moment that quick time event of 3 keys appeared in my michonne game I closed it and opened a ticket to get a refund. Telltale games are just cutscenes now.
He's not demanding challenging puzzles that require you to solve some complex formula, he's demanding doing something more than just sitting there watching a railroaded cutscene holding W in order to advance the game.
Besides pressing three keys instead of one, I already felt the formula was pretty close to an average Telltale game, so I don't see how that one change was significant.
The moment that quick time event of 3 keys appeared in my michonne game I closed it and opened a ticket to get a refund. Telltale games are just cutscenes now.
Although I personally do like the addition of Hubs, especially if done right(like in Mass Effect) and puzzle game-play, I must admit that those were never the reasons I enjoyed playing TTG's games since the release of The Walking Dead Game, I fell for the story, the characters and the symbolism, basically the driving force behind what makes me feel emotions and makes me enjoy and keep wanting to play a game, heck, those are the same reasons I enjoy their previous games like Back To The Future and Jurassic Park.
It may have been their roots to have lots of hubs and puzzles but it's pretty evident that it was when they started expanding from their roots into new terrain that they got so much recognition, compare the popularity of their newer games in comparison to their older ones, as well as the sales and awards, you'll notice quite a difference. They might have partially gone off their roots but multiple things such as QTEs, story and character development, as well as options in terms of dialogue are still very present, even then, why is it really a bad thing that TTG has gone off their roots? It's that decision that helped made episodic story/choice-based gameplay so much more popular over the last few years.
In the end, this is all subjective opinion and TTG will just continue to create games in whatever ways they want to but you can't outright say that hubs and puzzles don't exist in any of the newer games, even if the hub isn't the same for the entire Season or the puzzles are pretty minimal, they're still present.
Besides pressing three keys instead of one, I already felt the formula was pretty close to an average Telltale game, so I don't see how that one change was significant.
Comments
How were they different from Season 1 minus the decreased presence of hubs and puzzles? Again, I'm not defending the Glassdoor reviews or trying to deflect from that, I'm just curious how you mean that?
The games did also get good reviews from critics as well:
Walking Dead: Season 1 Metacritic Score: 89
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-walking-dead-a-telltale-games-series
Wolf Among Us Metacritic Score: 80
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-wolf-among-us
Tales from the Borderlands Metacritic Score: 85
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/tales-from-the-borderlands-a-telltale-game-series
If you mean they didn't all win 90 GOTY Awards like Season 1 did or average at an 89 or higher on Metacritic, I would attribute that to Season 1 having gameplay that was new and unique at the time. Not to mention, expecting every game after to have the exact same level of acclaim of Walking Dead: Season 1 is somewhat of an obtuse standard. High reviews in general definitely are not an "obtuse standard" before anyone says anything, but what I mean is implying that each game after is a failure for not having 90 GOTY awards is a bit extreme.
If people liking something doesn't indicate it being good, what standards are you going by then?
90 minutes long
Choices don't matter (this varies in severity and I would say Tales tries to improve on this)
As you mention, lack of hubs and puzzles
Underdeveloped characters with wasted potential
I'm not one of those people, and just so we're clear, I agree with you about everything else. And in case you didn't know, Sean Vanaman said in an interview that season 1 of The Walking Dead being the way it was was to make it unique among Telltale's other games, and that he didn't expect it to be the formula that they would adapt for every other game after it.
By what the game actually is. This is an off-topic example, but it's the best one I can think of off the top of my head so it's what I'm going with. Bioshock Infinite removes several gameplay elements from previous Bioshock games and waters down the few that are left, most of the gameplay is just fighting enemies and moving on to the next area, and there's little to no exploration due to this linear structure, it's easier than previous games which were not that difficult to begin with, and the story is full of plot holes, especially the ending. And yet lots of people really like the game and it has high reviews all around. It perfectly shows, to me, that reviews are not always indicative of how good a game actually is.
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
What people say they liked about TWD Season 1/what Telltale concluded people had liked
90 minute episodes was more of a "meta" design choice of Telltale as was less hubs and puzzles, but otherwise, those are fair points.
I was trying to touch upon it in my earlier posts, but yeah - I agree with that point you brought up from Sean that Walking Dead's unique nature from other Telltale titles is part of what made the game great. As I said earlier, it's fair to get that they would want tailored story telling to be a part of their future titles, but I still wish they would broaden their horizons in terms of their palette of interactive elements from a game mechanics point of view.
I think it's kind of the equivalent of movie executives getting the wrong idea of why something was successful - even if it leads to other good products down the line, they kind of missed out on some of the finer details of why something was a success. Walking Dead: Season 1 was a more intimate and down to earth role playing game with a choice system tailored to fit the source material, and Telltale ended up really only seeing it as an interactive TV show/movie. We still have gotten some really cool things in the time that has passed, but man, I would really love for Telltale to embrace the same mindset they had during Season 1 where they tailored the template to the source material, instead of their current thought process of tailoring the source material to fit the choice based template.
Unfortunately, most people nowadays are only fans of either old or modern Telltale but not both, so you don't really see a lot of people articulating the change in design, thought process, etc, outside of what is present at face value like the removal of puzzles from their older games. This leads to people thinking that Walking Dead: Season 1 was designed towards "core" gamers as what was meant to be a typical video game (with the mindset that it was everything after like Wolf, Season 2, etc that intitially started the push towards more causal games), whereas in reality, it was a push started by Telltale a good few years before Walking Dead: Season 1 even premiered. Earlier games such as Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, Wallace and Gromit, etc. were also experimenting with changes to make their games more casual and cinematic, and Walking Dead: Season 1 was actually pretty far towards the end of the process of Telltale changing up their formula to make it more cinematic and accessible towards a wide audience.
I've proposed this idea in other posts before - I think a separation between a "story" mode and an "adventure"/"immersion" mode would be cool - "story" mode would be your traditional 90-120 minute Telltale episode with choice making, and "immersion" mode would give you the same choices/story/etc but would also add more hub areas as well as some extra gameplay relevant to the franchise or source material; this could be puzzles, certain ways of interacting with the environment, etc.
(?) Puzzles will remember that...
Does anyone know the reason why TTG changed the camera point of view so up close to the playable characters? It's so close it is impossible to feel like your in a open environment. Even on the boat it felt completly cramped.
I just keep circling back to TWD season 1.... In the first episode alone you had the car ride, escape the wreck, clementines house, Hershel's farm, drug store, motor inn, back to drug store........
The reason why TWD S1 was a huge hit is TTG took the best of what they do and added amazing stories and emotional elements...... Why they screwed with the secret formula for success is a mystery..... Certainly no good CEO would turn his or her back on the company roots like this.....
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
Why Telltale changed things after TWD Season 1 that some people had liked
I wouldn't really say "TWD Season 1 is the company's roots", but I would say it is their first successful title on a large scale. As I said, a lot of newer Telltale fans think Season 1 was designed as a core game and think that Wolf/Season 2/etc were just the result of Telltale trying to earn more money by making their titles more accessible after the success of Season 1, but actually, it was a part of an incremental design process that started years before, as far back as around 2008-2010, where Telltale wanted their games to be more accessible and story focused to a general audience.
Walking Dead was the result of Telltale being ambitious and massive changing their formula from their older games by adding things like choice making, so to them - as I touched upon before - they view choice making as their "secret formula" - and they aren't entirely wrong. If they always "stuck to their roots," we'd have never gotten experimental games like Walking Dead, Borderlands, etc. The problem mainly lies in that Telltale has untapped potential they are sitting on because they are pushing for their games to play out like interactive movies instead of pushing for a more immersive, role-playing type experience kind of like what people found in Season 1.
In their eyes, the "best of what they did" was either confusing to their modern audience (puzzles) or slowed down the pacing of the story (hubs, or once again, puzzles) after they saw how successful the choice system had made Season 1 of Walking Dead. Most people liked Season 1 because it was an intimate role playing experience that was tailored to fit the Walking Dead source material, and Telltale interpreted their success as people wanting more games that were interactive cinema with Walking Dead's choice system, except with different types of dialogue choices to make depending on the franchise. That's really all there is too it. At this point, if you want to make a difference, voice your feedback on the forums or social media and hope Telltale listens - and do make sure to emphasize you are a modern fan so they don't dismiss you as being an old fan who only wants puzzle games back.
Depending on the context and the source material, the inclusion of puzzles can help some (but not all games). There are other ways to tell tales besides dialogue choices and QTEs, just as there are also other ways to tell tales besides puzzles.
EDIT: Adding titles to my posts as I figure I might link to these for future reference down the line.
Why episodes take longer to release after Season 1 of Walking Dead
I should probably add that the extended waiting periods for episodes of newer Telltale series after Season 1 was another result of Season 1's success. With older Telltale games, Telltale prioritized punctuality with monthly episode releases. However, during Season 1's earlier episodes, Telltale mentioned holding back Episode 102 to revise the presentation or design of later episodes with updates to the choice system as well as carrying over last minute design choices from the first episode (such as (?) Will Remember That or the choice screen at the end of each episode). Once they saw the positive reception for Episode 2 which was strengthened by the updates they made during the small time they held the episode back, they carried this over into further episodes throughout the first Season by changing the context choices or story elements were presented in, by modifying cinematography, camera angles, dialogue, etc to make choices less binary and more difficult to make.
Just as 90 minute episodes are not caused by Telltale working on multiple games, things like longer waiting periods after Season 1 are also not the result of multiple projects (Telltale had worked on multiple Seasons at once prior to Walking Dead, and Walking Dead: Season 1 was one of several upcoming projects Telltale had at the time of its announcement. Look at this blog post from February 2011 and think about how modern Telltale fans would react if they announced five more new projects in one blog post today on top of three other current/upcoming games they had announced beforehand...) Rather, the long waiting periods in the series that have come since are from Telltale repeating another part of what they saw worked during Season 1 - holding back episodes a little while based off of feedback and discussion on social media, except back then it was to a lesser extent. Then, they would change scenes so that Clementine would be present, or they would change the characterization of people like Ben, Larry, etc, so that choices were tougher to make instead of players being inclined to automatically save someone or hate them.
However, whereas revisions for Season 1 were minor in scale and meant to clarify a vision they had committed to from the start, it seems their current revisions from series since are more focused on changing or adding to the story in moderate capacities instead, such as shipping jokes in Borderlands as an example. As a result of them seeing the positive response to minor changes made live in production during Season 1, they amped it up further and started making larger changes to the series that have since passed, and in the process, leaving larger portions of the story vulnerable to changes or additions from fan feedback. That is why Wolf, Borderlands, Season 2, Thrones, etc have had longer waiting periods than Season 1 - not because Telltale works on multiple games at once. It's just Telltale being experimental and trying to push further towards repeating what they feel had made Season 1 unique and special compared to their previous titles. (Thankfully, Telltale has since expressed interest in returning to monthly releases with series like Minecraft, Michonne, and potentially other future series...)
I'm not saying this entirely as a criticism of Telltale, I'm just using this as a chance to explain what some may see as either controversial design choices, and what others may mistakenly conclude are consequences of Telltale working on more than one game at once.
You're like a human encyclopedia, Blind.
I usually don't go on like that. These long posts are basically me just releasing my pent up frustration from seeing people in general act like things such as 90 minute episodes/long waiting periods/removal of puzzles/etc are the result of Telltale being lazy, occupied with multiple projects, or cutting corners out of greed, when in reality, it's just Telltale trying to replicate parts of what they think worked from Season 1. Some of their changes have worked, some still need working on. In other ways, it's also me venting on how I personally feel Telltale has their hearts in the right place, but makes judgements that I personally feel are sometimes misguided. [Mods are not Telltale staff; our opinions are our own]
I definitely don't agree with everything they've done as a result of them interpreting their success from Season 1 (such as 90 minute episodes), but I just wanted to clear the air as opposed to seeing people continue to complain that Telltale working on two games at once with 330+ people as opposed to one game with 60-90 people is why we have shorter episodes coming out at longer periods, and then blame it on Jake/Sean leaving as if they are the only two good writers Telltale ever had. I'm not defending those choices - I'm just clarifying why those choices are being made.
If people are going to complain about certain choices, I at least figure it would help to explain the rationale behind why Telltale deliberately makes those choices so the scapegoating towards Jake/Sean leaving or Telltale working on multiple games instead of one single game stops. That, and it helps when you have other stuff to procrastinate on. :P
I just want to go and record again, and say that I hate this line of thinking
I want to be sorry about saying that, but I don't think there's much to be sorry about when all this line of thinking does is provide a lazy excuse as to why you don't like Telltale's games as much these days, and to undervalue the work of everyone else at Telltale, as well as idolize Sean and Jake like they're a couple of paragons of game development
I mean, when you think about it, that kind of doubles as an insult to Telltale themselves, and by extension, everyone that works there. It's like you're implying that S1 was only as good as it was because of these two guys, and that because these two guys left, Telltale will never make a game of the same quality again. Yeah, screw all those other designers, directors, writers, and artists who also worked on the game and helped make it what it was, Sean and Jake did all the work! And screw all those people that worked on S1 that still work at the company to this day, without Sean and Jake this game would be nothing!
And that line of thinking right there can just fuck right off, pardon the french
people seem to forget wolf and tales were well written. now i have not played got or mine craft yet so i have no opinion on those. but those two are as good if not better then season 1 of twd.
and as blind said the puzzle aspect was slowly being taken out as late as back to the future. heck Jurassic park is pretty mch the prototype for the current era of telltale minus choices.
and season 2 did not start the whole 90 minute thing either that was the last episode of season 1. everything you have issue with in season 2 [ no hubs, can't talk to party member, etc] starts there.
I remember really being worried tales from the borderlands was going to be 90 minutes and one pov was going to have more screen time then the other. did that happen? nope each episode is 2 hours, has hubs and you can talk to people on down time. so it's not like telltale can't do it anymore.
Telltale will remember that.
We get it, you don't like the new format. Geez.
I don't that's for sure.....
I was actually excited to play this latest TWD then I realized it is the same format as TWDS2......
did those games get GOTY like TWD did 90 times? okay then buddy.
Well Firewatch doesn't exactly look like it's going to be getting over 90 GOTY nominations by the end of the year either, so what's the point you're trying to make here exactly
so your game is only good if it won goty? well that's narrow minded.
You really can't fault them for changing their format from puzzle based gameplay to story based gameplay when the former was never very successful for them, but the latter was very successful and put them on the map. They need to do what makes money.
I would also argue that the "puzzles" in TWD season 1 were so simple that their inclusion wasn't necessarily a good thing, they were just kind of there. If you want games with puzzles, The Walking Dead was never meant as a game to fulfil that.
yeah it does lol
no i was just making a point and I realized that everyone hates me on this site so there's no point in even trying to input anything.
This.
The moment that quick time event of 3 keys appeared in my michonne game I closed it and opened a ticket to get a refund. Telltale games are just cutscenes now.
He's not demanding challenging puzzles that require you to solve some complex formula, he's demanding doing something more than just sitting there watching a railroaded cutscene holding W in order to advance the game.
Besides pressing three keys instead of one, I already felt the formula was pretty close to an average Telltale game, so I don't see how that one change was significant.
Although I personally do like the addition of Hubs, especially if done right(like in Mass Effect) and puzzle game-play, I must admit that those were never the reasons I enjoyed playing TTG's games since the release of The Walking Dead Game, I fell for the story, the characters and the symbolism, basically the driving force behind what makes me feel emotions and makes me enjoy and keep wanting to play a game, heck, those are the same reasons I enjoy their previous games like Back To The Future and Jurassic Park.
It may have been their roots to have lots of hubs and puzzles but it's pretty evident that it was when they started expanding from their roots into new terrain that they got so much recognition, compare the popularity of their newer games in comparison to their older ones, as well as the sales and awards, you'll notice quite a difference. They might have partially gone off their roots but multiple things such as QTEs, story and character development, as well as options in terms of dialogue are still very present, even then, why is it really a bad thing that TTG has gone off their roots? It's that decision that helped made episodic story/choice-based gameplay so much more popular over the last few years.
In the end, this is all subjective opinion and TTG will just continue to create games in whatever ways they want to but you can't outright say that hubs and puzzles don't exist in any of the newer games, even if the hub isn't the same for the entire Season or the puzzles are pretty minimal, they're still present.
well i died more in that section then in any other qte section.