The Black Lives Matter Movement: Good or bad?
So hai, this is my first thread but I thought it could make for some interesting discussion. I know it's a sensitive topic, but an important one too.
I'm just wondering whether the people here support the movement and what it stands for, or don't, and if so, why? I mean, I can assume but I'd rather hear it direct from you lot.
Oh, and please be civil, thanks. :-)
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I support the fact that we're all equal and no one deserves discrimination for their skin colour.
All lives matter, but unfortunately its the black people that are getting targeted by the police in america, shot for no reason etc.
Those select few should not have retaliated in the way they did towards the police as they did. Something needs to be done about the racism amongst american police and people. And how trigger happy americans are
Don't live in US but it seems like some kind of black supremacist group. I haven't seen anyone of them actually feeling sorry for the killed police officers.
They really seem quit insane.
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All Lives Matter.
Whenever you put some trendy little logo as your "movement's" identity, I tend to get cautious around those people.
What I think it boils down to is that people don't exactly like to practice what they preach and instead believe instigating is the way to support their cause or affiliation because Christ knows acknowledging that the same group of people that often chant about peace are actually the ones willing to sink to vengeance to display their points.
And I don't care about the technical reaffirming "BlackLivesMatter" protesters are so quick to jump on. If I'm a bigot cause I'd rather shout "AllLivesMatter" than so fucking be it. All of it is just a guise to distract from the fact nobody actually gives a shit. Slap a name on something and call it a cause and people will use it to inhibit their worst characteristics.
So, in short, it's a fucking joke.
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Oh, here we go with this horseshit again (not the OP, I mean in general).
Anybody who points to systematic disadvantages to blacks or women are 'black/female supremacists,' and now the new trend reactionary atheists of referring to anything don't like as a cult.
Then we have the references to Mizzou or the pigs in a blanket. Yes, somewhere in the country somebody using the label black lives matter did/said something objectionable. Clearly they're a black supremicist cult committed to perpetuating victim culture of being a special snowflake? Amarite?
"Black lives matter" doesn't really have any meaning - not because there isn't a point to noting the biases which feed into disproprotionate police brutality and the subsequent reaction to them, but because it's more or less a hashtag with no central organization or control, which anybody, from liberals to radicals to non-violence advocates to terrorists, can all jump in on.
"Militant feminists" - check
"Cultural Marxists" - check
"Muh" - check
"Virtue signaling" - check
"Black on black crime" - check
"Criminal culture" - check
"But Martin Luther King!" - check
"Pigs in blankets" - check
"Feminists hate women" - check (and relevant how?)
"domestic terrorist (hate group)" - check
Congratulations, you've got a 95% on the reactionary 'but the SJWs!' talking point scale. Maybe a bit too extreme for FOX news, but I hear The Blaze is hiring...
Support the premise. Modern criminal justice is a horrible institution that should be challenged (non-violently) at every opportunity. Though I would've preferred a general anti-Brutality movement, or better yet a class conscious movement (plenty of white folks are killed, the unifying trend is poverty), but BLM is what formed and in many ways succeeded in bring the issue to national attention, though I imagine not in a way that many of its members had hoped.
My problem with BLM is that it's an organizational trainwreck. As I said in another thread, they have no formal leadership, platform or tactics. There are several consequences to this.
1.) Local BLM groups have different flavors: Because BLM is so decentralized, the character of its local groups is almost completely dependent on the people involved. In the course of volunteering and doing stuff with the IWW, i've crossed paths with my local BLM and found them to be staunchly (frustratingly) liberal. In Minneapolis/St. Paul, there's a significant overlap between BLM and local radical left groups, and thus they've staged some dramatic, well-organized protests. In other places, BLM groups are spearheaded by black supermacist hate groups like the Nation of Islam, 5 Percenters or New Black Panther Party. Bad news.
2.) The left foot doesn't know what the right foot is doing. it's important to note than when you hear something like "Black Lives Matter crashes Bernie rally!" that they're carried out by one of these local groups and doesn't (rather it literally can't) represent the group at large. Since there's no central organization, there's no consequences for groups that do stupid shit, even if other groups disapprove. The best that can be offered is a social media rebuke, which tends to be ignored by the media.
3.) Anyone can speak for BLM. This is a consequence of BLM being a social media driven movement and it's a problem that Gamergate also had. Anyone, regardless of their role in the movement or personal politics can add the BLM tag to their tweet or whatever and become an unofficial spokesperson of the movement, and there's no formal group that can distance BLM from these people. When you consider that there's is a sizable portion of "kill whitey" types involved in the movement, you can see why this might become a problem. Take for instance, the people cheering on the death of cops after Dallas. Were they members of BLM groups or were they middle-class keyboard warriors using it as an excuse to play tough on the Internet? Without intense individual research it's hard to tell, but the media instantly latches on and uses the crazy tweets to paint the entire organization in a negative light. The nutcases will always have the loudest voices, unfortunately.
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As something of an actual Marxist, I find this conspiracy theory amusing. Assata Shakur is an actual Marxist-Leninist, not a "Cultural Marxist".
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Terrorists
Because the idea of cultural Marxism existing is humorously antithetical to actual Marxism. Marxism is an analysis based on the dialectical relationship and conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, particularly how this conflict manifests itself in Capitalism. Traditionally, Marxists actually tend to view other forms of oppression (like racism or sexism) as secondary or even an afterthough compared to class oppression.
Also, people who use the conspiracy theory get the goal of Marxism wrong. They think that the goal is to elevate the proletariat above the bourgeoisie and therefore believe it stands to reason that the goal of Cultural Marxism would be to elevate minorities at the expense and harm of white, straight males and western civilization as a whole. In fact, the goal of Marxism is to create a classless society, thereby ending the exploitation class conflict which has plagued much of modern history (which is about as far as I support Marxism). So, by extension, Cultural Marxists would have the goal of abolishing race, gender whatever. Hardly seems representative of groups like BLM who "perpetuate bigotry and racial division" as Internet reactionaries are keen to claim.
Also it's just a silly conspiracy theory cooked up by the the Nazis (it was called Cultural Bolshevism back then) and dredged up by the Paleoconservative movement in the 90's. The closest thing to it that actual exists was some of Camus' work about "passive revolution" but that's a stretch and separate from the Frankfurt School.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=vYQo6LI3Y7c
I like you Dillon, but you're too smart to be buying into crap like that. You can maintain a principled opposition to third-wave feminism and BLM without lumping them into some conspiracy to undermine western culture. In fact, doing so would make your arguments better IMO.
Okay, well, to the extent to which logical argument is valid on the internet -
Black Lives Matter came about as a hastag surrounding Trevyon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, etc. If you want to point to 'radical feminist roots' which, if we're talking logic, is a pure attempt at poisoning the well.
Cultural Marxism is nothing more than a buzzword. There is political and economic Marxism, which has its philosophers and history, agree or otherwise, but once again, nothing more than a buzzword.
I'd like the add the same thing about 'Muh,' it's a simple phrase meant to demean and discredit the party to which it refers. If my tin foil hat joke is off limits, so too should that be.
Sean King is a non-sequitor, and again, pointing to a single individual with the intent of discrediting a large, decentralized movement, many of whom would have never heard of Sean King. Of course the implication is that his influence is just as sinister, in which case I ask you to back your claims - where has the ideology of Sean King effected the movement as a whole to a significant extent.
Well I don't want to get into the details of Michael Brown - I don't believe that he grabbed for the officers gun, nor do I believe that he didn't The evidence from the coroner suggests that the majority of bullet wounds were sustained in postion that he was running away. The strong-arm robbery is where the BLM lost a lot of its political capital, putting their bets on the wrong horse as it were, even though that has no actual relationship regarding the confrontation between Brown and the officer at the time - nor does it have to do with the prosecution's clear bungling of the case which meant that the officer wasn't even indicted.
The majority of crime is intraracial rather than inter-racial. And yes, higher level of crime in black communities (because they're poor) lends to a higher murder rate, but that doesn't change the fact that an unarmed black suspect is 5 times more likely to be shot than a white one.
I don't want to conflate the issue of feminism and BLM, as that gets into far too many topics, but pointing to discrimination and asking for its remedy is very different from say "if you fail, it's not your fault." Moreover, you're assumption is that everything is equal but black and women fail to achieve as much as whites and men because... why? Biology? "Criminal culture" - another canard.
And I'm not trying to justify the 'pigs in a blanket' chant - what I am saying is that that does not mean that the label black lives matter should inherently be tainted. Is it BLM or people against them who schelpp out that catchphrase every time the conversation comes up?
I also take particular issue to this idea that MLK is a wonder hero and Malcolm X is to be demonized. That does nothing to argue for or against either's ideas, but I will say that the Civil Right's Movement of the 1960 was not solely Brown v. Board of Education and people saying 'oh how wonder MLK is, how bad these Southern racists are' - there was significant political pressure, both violent and non-violent, and both were a part in moving the political calculations of the period. Don't mistake that as advocating violence, but recognizing that both parts had a signficant role to play at the time, and pulling out MLK when these happen is just saying "Yes, well, cops are shooting you. Police brutality is bad. Not prosecuting them is bad, but I'm sure if we sing Kumbayah enough, things will change." I'd be a lot more willing to listen to all these people saying "it's what MLK would have wanted!" if they were actually there at protests and marches against police brutality, instead of using him as a talking point to browbeat protesters into submission.
Maybe it's because I don't live in the US, but I have yet to hear Trump blamed for this. Invoking Trump and Brexit seems yet again to be a non-sequitor, and an attempt, conscious or otherwise, in attaining sympathy from people who hold similar, yet irrelevant, political views.
Overall, my complaint is the complete conflation of an entire movement, BLM or feminism, with its most radical elements, and using those to discredit those with legitimate grievances.
Rekt.
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BLM started from a legitimate grievance but it has evolved into a completely racist, disrespectful, cancer upon the Black Community.
Happy to oblige, though I'm not a Marxist in the political sense.
go for it.
lol sorry, but you were pretty thoroughly spanked. If it makes you feel any better, I think you bounced back okay.
By using that word, you're buying into the sordid ideological baggage that comes with it. More importantly, you used it in a way that was flat-out incorrect and misleading.
Well what does the word mean in the context your were using it? Because outside of the alt-right movement, it's a pretty concrete widely accepted fact that it refers to a conspiracy to undermine western civilization.
It's interest you mentioned the Black Panthers Party though, as I think BLM could learn a lot from them.
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AllLivesMatter
I support Black Lives Matter; however, there are some people there that ruins the actually meaning of the group. BLM is supposed to be a peaceful group, but there are some people who doewn't want peace. Everytime there is a peaceful protest there is always a person or people that wants to start riots and war. A lot of people part of BLM doesn't not want to be associated with those people. For example, the shooter that shot the 12 police officers. He wanted to kill white people, especially officers. I remember yesterday on the news he was "upset" about the BLM movement because I believe he wanted war, not peace. There are always going to be people who tarnishes the name and give the group a bad reputation. I know you guys are wondering, why aren't they talking about Black on Black crimes? Little than people know is that BLM does speak about it; however, the media does not want to cover the news story. However, I think there should be more BLM members should try to do something about Black on Black crimes. They need to do something to help black youths stay off the streets and convince them that life on the streets are not worth it and that their life is precious. You know when Black on Black crimes start? It starts with the young ones. As young as 13. A lot of them start the crimes young because they have no hope. There are people that tell them that they are going nowhere in life, and that's when they live a life of crime because people, sometimes family members, put them down and make them feel like they are nothing. My point is that some BLM members does these things to try help to the youths and decrease the crime rate, but not enough does. If only there was enough to help then maybe Black on Black crimes won't be that much of a problem.
Are black people being targeted more? Do you think it may have something to do with the black community commiting way more crime in America?
I support rolling back police power, but not through this segregating, malicious movement.
I agree with the notion that all lives matter not just one particular race. No life is more valuable than another in terms of race which is something that pisses me off
ISIS?! That doesn't sound good...
Especially when the facts get in the way of the narrative. . .
Racism ? I can put money on that most of these cops were not racist, but put in a situation that they did not know how to handle. Because of lack of training or that they did not have the mental strength to be cops at all. But let's not pretend that black people are the only victims of police brutality, but i don't see anyone giving a shit about them. But that does not fit with the extreme leftist narrative that black people are not responsible for their own actions.
Obviously the cops that commit murder or manslaughter should be put on trial and be sent to prison if they are found guilty. No matter the victim .
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I never felt 'thoroughly spanked', and through virtue of democracy (the like system), it looks like I'm not alone in that. So I feel fine.
Anti-"SJW" posts tend to be pretty popular here, so I'm not honestly surprised. I for one tend to get more likes when criticizing social movements than when I defend them. Regardless, what's done is done and I apologize.
Ah, sounded like you meant that she was part of the Cultural Marxist plot. Bit of confusion.
Black Lives Matter is such a loose, ideological varied mess that saying she's their inspiration doesn't hold much weight. She's something of a darling for Leninists and Black Power types, but calling her the ideological godmother to the movement at large is pretty disingenuous.
That's...not really a radical belief. It's pretty widely accepted that race as we know it is mostly, if not totally a social construct. I'd say the burden of proof falls on you here. Please tell me you're not part of that "human biodiversity" lot.
The BPP was angry and radical, but also organized and disciplined (they considered themselves the Vanguard Party of the black proletariat. They protested like BLM, except with arms and military style discipline. In 1970, racial tension went out of control in my city, but the Panthers' maxim of "organize, strategize, mobilize" kept people off the streets long enough to avoid destroying their own communities. Instead, they mobilized like an army, routed the cops from their neighborhoods and scared the city commission into taking desegregation seriously. Organized direct action got the goods in a way that BLM hasn't and perhaps can't.
They (often) empowered their communities by keeping close tabs on police and chasing drug dealers off themselves (though they had a habit of extorting businesses, at least in Oakland). They made subversive and general interest newspapers that were a hit in the community and allow people to give their input. BPP kept this going despite infiltration attempts and the straight up murder of key figures by the government (see: Fred Hampton). They followed the Socialist doctrine of establishing dual power, in a way that BLM doesn't and perhaps can't.
Most importantly, they actually did tangible, good things for their communities like building playgrounds and setting up free breakfasts (fun fact: the FBI considered this more subversive and dangerous that their armed protests!). They helped their communities and earned good will in return in a way that BLM doesn't (though many of its organizers do and don't get proper credit IMO).
Also, contrary to popular belief, they weren't a racist group, though many Panthers certainly were racist. There were white Black Panthers and they cooperated very closely with white 'New Left' radicals. BLM has a very schizophrenic relationship with its white "allies". They entire idea of "white allyship" is fucking stupid and condescending to people of color, but that's something for another time.
There were serious, deadly problems with the BPP, but it was altogether a completely different and IMO more effective organization. BLM could stand to learn from the good parts.
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I absolutely want to support Black Lives Matter, but I can't.
It's a wonderful concept created from legitimate reasoning (that of mourning over community members), but it's been executed poorly. I've heard stories, seen news articles and videos about some of their questionably legal tactics and often offensive chants that promote further violence.There also seems to be an overflowing amount of hypocrisy from the movement as well. Two of my closest friends are what might be considered "minorities" and had to sit around and debate with a white girl that BLM did not represent them while she continually told them that they were wrong.
It seems blurred, confused and far from what it began as.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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I like to think I'm unbiased towards this, mainly cause I feel like I don't have enough info to make an opinion.
But from what little I do know, I think BLM is fighting for a good cause but they're doing a miserable job at conveying their intentions. And their rants isn't making that any better.
People need to realise that when others promote the phrase "black lives matter" it is not saying other lives don't. Everyone knows that all lives matter.
Unfortunately, everyone doesn't know that. There are a whole lot of people out there that think people do not deserve to live based on their religion, skin, ideals.
Honestly, police brutality is very real. But often the lives that the BLM rally behind make it very difficult to support the movement. Personally the movement has caused considerably more harm then good. It has caused police in general across the country to be even more itchy and trigger happy since the movement started because people definitely african minorities have became more hostile towards police since it's started, more resentful, and willing to resist arrest. It has turned police brutality into a racist thing. When it's actually a serious problem that goes beyond just ethnicity.
Though I do dislike how they do often resort to a shoot first mentality. The story about a 12 year old name Tamir best describes it. Tamir was an african boy he was playing in a park on his own, he was seen talking on his cell phone while pacing around a park picknick table. Someone called the police as it looked like he was pacing the table with a gun in his hand. Within a few seconds of arriving the two officers who arrived fired on the boy, they never bothered to ask any questions, they didn't do anything but yell at the boy, demanding he put his hands up, within 3 seconds they fired shots. They didn't even try in short. To me regardless of the scenario, police are too willing to shoot down possible threats and at times even people who are not even threats. Regardless whether the boy's airsoft gun looked like a real gun or not, if the boy actually tried to shoot one of them they would of had plenty of time to reply in kind, but they didn't even try, they arrived, yelled, then shot and a boy died.
Problem I have is the BLM focuses on incidents like Brown, a thug, criminal, someone who I'm glad ended up getting shot, and seemed acted in a way that helped greatly to himself being shot. But Tamir the police didn't even try, he was a boy. He should be the Martyr that the BLM is looking for but they'd rather focus on someone like Brown, and that really ticks me off. BLM is lead by a bunch of idiots, and a lot of their supporters willingly break laws and cause public disorder to get their points across and only in the end cause more hate towards the BLM movement. My opinion of the BLM movement is, it that it needs to stop, they lost, and are only causing more harm than good. They chose the wrong battles, and used the wrong tactics to win, and have destroyed the image of their movement and they need to stop.
Black lives matter. The activists fight for EQUALITY. So why is their phrase "Black lives matter"?