Sarah can die either at the trailer park or by falling from the observation deck. The former, Jane can cause indirectly by telling Clementine to leave Sarah. How is the latter situation affected by Jane?
Jane offered Luke sex for solace when his hero complex was starting to weight him down, which meant he wasn't on the lookout like he was supposed to be. A herd of walkers got attracted by Rebecca going into labor and Sarah had to force herself out of her trauma to warn Clementine and get everyone moving. Clementine and Luke unintentionally cause the observation deck to collapse, getting Sarah precariously trapped under some rubble. Jane is the only one in a position to go help her but she initially tries to convince you otherwise. If Jane does go down there, she ends up getting distracted by an inconvenient loose plank and abandon's Sarah like a clumsy coward.
So, basically, Jane was the catalyst to the situation that gets Sarah slaughtered. So some people, like myself, feel content to put the entire incident on her head, which is no doubt helped by the ill will she had built up beforehand because she clearly didn't like Sarah and tried to convince Clementine to give up on her numerous times.
p.s. You should write a post on Bonnie and a post of Lilly. :-)
While I do think Lilly might be an interesting subject to tacle, I honestly didn't give Bonnie to much of a thought when she wasn't in the spotlight.
Feel free to make your own separate comment about either one or any other character whose portrayal in the story was at odds with your opinions here or in Part Two. That's why I made these threads!
Good post! I agree with you on most points and like how in depth you went, but remind me how Jane caused Sarah's death? Sarah can die either… more at the trailer park or by falling from the observation deck. The former, Jane can cause indirectly by telling Clementine to leave Sarah. How is the latter situation affected by Jane? In my play through she tried to lift the debris off Sarah. Also this:
My plan was always get to Wellington since it was debatably the best and closest option
How is that so? The group had no idea whether Wellington was a real place or overrun or managed by undesirables. I would argue Howe's was closer if not at the end, through most of the story, and they knew there was food and water there.
p.s. You should write a post on Bonnie and a post of Lilly. :-)
Thank you, I appreciate it. My opinion here is too neutral though, even knowing that they create some characters in order to cause us a determined reaction, the link that these characters build between players and creators is too relative and too subjective, some characters being as open to them as they are to us.
Ok. I still wish it would've been handled a little better, but I get your point.
By the by, feel free to make a separate comment in this … morethread or its sequel about your experiences. That's what this thread is all about!
Was there a character you should've liked that you wanted to hurt or one you wanted to help that you should've disliked?
(I lost the original text, so I'm writing this again. So, if for some reason I sound infuriated it's because of that.)
(Before commenting and objecting try reading everything, piece by piece. I think I made a very good job on analysing Jane's character. If you hate her or you are a hardcore Kenny or Sarah fan read this with an open mind!)
I think that what you did here is pretty impressive. You surely took a lot of your time to write all of this. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost everything. Take no offense but some things you blamed on Jane were just plain nitpicks that were caused by time, circumstance and many, many other people. I also think that you exaggerated this 'Jane vs Sarah' situation.
My opinion, just as yours, might be biased but in an opposite way because I like Jane.
Let's talk about Jane 'murdering' Troy. Murdering someone is the act of killing another without a proper reason to do so while killing someone is just the act of killing another human being. While a murderer is necessarily a killer, a killer isn't necessarily a murderer. So, can Jane killing Troy be classified as 'murder'? I don't think so. Troy, who had just seen the dead body of his leader, find our group fleeing his community after killing his leader (in a not-so-pleasant way) and points a gun at Luke. What would've happened if Jane had not intervened? Luke and possibly some more group members' death was more than granted. The ones who survived (if any) would most definitely be taken back to Howe's (and we all know that Howe's fate isn't a good one). So, should Jane's action be classified as a sick heartless murder or killing in order to save the group?
What had Jane showed us about her personality until the moment? She looked like a cold, stoic survivor (as you said) who didn't seem to want to bond with the group making her also anti-social and, to some people, even weird. (keyword: 'showed')
Episode 4! Amid The Ruins
Some really bloody moments later, in episode 4, we bump into her while trying to escape the herd with a pregnant Rebecca. She advises Clem and Rebecca to spread out even after seeing the pregnant Rebecca plead to not leave them which enforces the idea of cold, stoic and pragmatic survivor Jane. But then, this 'cold' person who can't bare having liabilities in her group has a change of heart and changes her plan in order to help two liabilities. Hmmm... this doesn't line up, does it? Does the cold-hearted Jane care about the group??? This is one of the many times where we see Jane saying something cold and pragmatic while acting in a different way. This what Jane says and thinksvswhat Jane actually does appears a lot during this episode and is later explained when Jane leaves the group. This is one of the most important aspects about her character arc, so keep this in mind.
In the following scenes with her, she tells us how she feels about our group and its situation. She refers to the baby as 'Rebecca's situation' and refers to it as a problem and liability. But this once again makes us see the contrast between what she think and what she does. Why doesn't Jane, a supposed 'loner', leave? She makes it clear that she thinks that the group is falling apart and she also shows her discomfort towards Rebecca's baby coming yet she stays and helps the group that she's uncomfortable with. This makes me question if 'Jane the cold, pragmatic, anti-social, rational' loner only exists in her words (more on that later).
Let's talk about Sarah. I'll quote you on this one.
it’s almost completely one-sided on Jane’s side, and as I’ll mention in the next episode, that is an example of a major reason why Jane comes off as so infuriatingly unsympathetic to me. Sarah gets one line that indirectly implies some internal resentment before she dies on Jane’s watch, because of Jane’s actions. Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you, without them actually doing anything to warrant being punished, doesn’t make you a pragmatist, an anti-hero, or even just barely unscrupulous; it makes you a bully.
"Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you" what? Where did you get this from? It's such an inaccurate way to see Jane's real motives in this scene. I understand that Sarah is one of your favourite characters which makes you want to blame someone for her dead but your perception of this scene doesn't combine with anything the characters actually show us. Let's reanalyse the scene from the more superficial level (what characters actually did (or 'the blame game' as some would cal it)) and from the character's perspective.
Superficially, who causes Sarah's death? Sarah. No ifs, not buts. Sarah chose not no save herself. Sarah chose to be in that situation. I recognize that it was due to her mental illness but that doesn't make it any less true. Blaming it on Jane is simply wrong since Jane didn't put Sarah in that situation and she also didn't force Sarah to not react.
Now, let's look at the characters perspective (more specifically Jane's perspective). She and Clem left the group to find this girl who she never interacted with. When they find her she is static, unable to react and they are trapped inside an RV that will be overrun by walkers in minutes. From Jane's past experiences she knows that whatever 'Sarah' once was is not there anymore and that she couldn't be saved (more on that in a late paragraph). So she does the only logical thing to do. She tries to save who can be saved; Clementine. She doesn't suggest leaving Sarah because she 'hates' or wants to mistreat Sarah. She does it because their lives were on the line and she wanted to save the ones who were able to be saved.
But even thinking and knowing all that, Jane still decides to remain in the RV with Clem and Sarah. This supposedly 'cold' pragmatic survivor yet again prioritises the lives of other people over her safety. She waits for Clem and (determinant) Sarah to be in safety before going up herself (and let's be real, in the 'save' Sarah path Jane would've died in that RV). This is another one of those what Jane says and thinksvswhat Jane actually does situations. She thinks that Sarah is too far gone and that they should save themselves but instead stays until Sarah is brought to safety.
Let's talk about 'Saving' Sarah. What you brought back to the group felt like Sarah? The only thing I saw in Sarah after she's 'saved' is an empty shell, crying for her dead father that would never come back. In her second death (and I will talk about Jane's involvement in this later) we see her in a life or death situation and the only way Sarah reacts is by calling for her dad. Even when partially freed she refuses to do anything but call for her dad. So, in the end, in which path did Sarah suffer the most? Was Jane right after all, could Sarah really be saved? Even if she had survived for longer, could she ever get over her father's death, the man who she depended on?
Changing the subject, let's talk about Arvo and the observation deck thing. Let's play the blame game, shall we?
It's very simple, did you agree to steal the supplies? Then the blame is on you and Jane and you aren't able to blame her for it otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite!
You didn't steal? Then good for you! Jane certainly didn't steal as well ('hurrr, she stole his gun'. It's called disarming a potential threat and if Arvo and his group attacked us because of a gun, then they're clearly way too territorial bandits).
And it's also worth noting that once again we get what Jane says and thinksvswhat Jane actually does:
While Jane says that that the 'Rebecca's situation' is a liability she considers stealing meds from a kid in order to ensure the baby's safe birth.
Although she wants Clementine to steal, if you stay silent, Jane will decide for herself and chose not to steal the medical supplies.
Let's talk about the second Sarah death. First of all, blaming it on Jane and Luke for having sex is just way too far-fetched. What that did was reckless, sure, but thankfully it barely had any consequences. 'If Luke was doing his job instead of fucking Jane he would've spotted the walkers and Sarah would be alive' and how would Sarah be alive in that scenario? Luke would warn the group that walker was coming to their direction. They would've hidden in the Observation deck. Rebbeca would go into labour attracting the walker to the observation deck. And the scene would play out as usual.
About the actual death itself, after the deck collapsed for the first time and Sarah is trapped under the wood planks we get the choice to tell Jane to save Sarah. If we do tell her, she will actually risk her life to save a girl that she thinks is too far gone. Additionally, Jane will choose to save Sarah if you say silent. That's right, she will go down there on her own, without Clem asking for anything!
What does this show us about Jane? She helps Rebecca and Clem escape the herd, she sticks with the group that she thinks is falling apart, she risks her life in order to get Clem and possibly Sarah to safety, she considers stealing from a kid in order to ensure Rebecca a comfortable labour and she later saves Sarah again even knowing that there wasn't ay chance of that girl making it out, all this against what she thinks and believes. What does this character receive after doing all of this? She is called cold and heartless and is blamed for things that weren't even under her control! That's pretty unfair.
She later leaves the group. Why leaving the group now? The answer is simple. The baby was delivered, everyone was safe again, they didn't need her help anymore. 'But why does she leave, exactly?' "You know... Jaime... Sarah... I'm not gonna stick around and... And watch it happen to you, too." And this is basically Jane's story arc reduced to one line. This is why Jane is a 'weird loner'. She fears to bond with people because she knows that in that world chances are that most aren't going to make it, some will disappear, some will give up and some will even turn on you. She leaves because she wants to avoid seeing any of those things happen to Clem because it would cause her great emotional pain.
Episode 5! No Going Back
Let's play the blame game again. Why did the Russians attack? For stealing the medical supplies? You and Jane are to blame (although she never steals without your consent), even though they could ask for the rest of the pills instead of threatening you, but whatever. If they're attacking because of that little gun, then we can assume that they are bandits. Any normal person would ask for the gun back (yes, even in the apocalypse) but these fellas decide to point guns at your group and demand all of your supplies, because of a little gun! In the path where you stole the supplies perhaps this can be considered a slightly gray vs gray conflict (with the Russians being waaay closer to black), but in the not steal path it's just simply a white vs black conflict which makes Arvo and his friends villains, plain and simple. And this is where I kinda lost your point: blaming this solely on Jane. Jane didn't force this Russians to ambush the group. Jane didn't force them to demand all the supplies instead of trying to take back what was actually taken from them. Jane didn't force them to try and resolve the matter with force. So blaming the Russians deaths and Luke and Mike getting shot on her is just nitpicking.
I also wanted to ask why you call the "I didn't know this man... I never killed someone that didn't wrong me in some way... that didn't deserve it." bullshit? What makes you assume that what she's saying is a lie?
Jane has come back. And you and the rest of the group urges her to bond with people. The thing that Jane avoids to do in order to protect herself. She does it anyways and after Luke's death, we can clearly see that she was right about what she was saying. Bonding with people causes suffering. And that made her suffer the loss of Luke. Later in the episode, this is proven once again (although not so bluntly) when Bonnie and Mike betray the group. We do not see Jane suffering over this, but she must've been obviously sad about it.
And... everyone's favourite! Kenny vs Jane. The first thing we get to know about a Kenny-Jane relationship is that Kenny holds Jane responsible for the Russian's acts ("You're the reason these fuckers came after us in the first place!"). After he starts beating Arvo, Jane seems opposed to his actions (just as everyone else in the group, lol) and tries to appeal to Kenny's reason. This shows us some kind of passive mistrust between these two characters. Jane then tells Clem that she worries about Kenny mental state, fearing that he might be getting to a dark place after the loss of Sarita. There's little interaction between the two characters. We see Jane talking with Kenny while treating Luke (then Mike joins them), but unfortunately, there's nothing we can make out of that. After reaching the house and realising that Kenny is beating Arvo, she reprehends him by yelling saying that Kenny made a rash conclusion because there was, in fact, food in the house, just as Arvo had promised. Kenny probably didn't like that which made his mistrust towards Jane increase and Jane seemed very pissed at Kenny which made her worry about his mental state increase even more along with her mistrust. She then warns Clem that Kenny might be too far gone comparing him to Carver, saying that Carver was probably a nice guy too, once. It's a pretty interesting perspective actually. What makes Kenny and Carver so different? They both seem to enjoy beating people, both are able to murder people out of any- (Do not go into 'Kenny rant' mode, DO. NOT. GO.). Ehh, disregard what I was saying! ... About Jane and Kenny's relationship Jane seems to think that Kenny might be too far gone. which increases her mistrust on him (that was already very low). When Kenny gets the truck working Jane argues that it might be best going back to Howe's (which is debatable) since they had a location and they knew there was formula back there, which Kenny disregards, screaming, and dictates that they were heading North whether the group wanted it or not. Did Jane's trust in Kenny increase? I guess not. Kenny's trust in Jane is also seen to be damaged, perhaps not so damaged as Jane's trust in Kenny is, but damaged nevertheless which is shown by Kenny when he suggests that Jane was talking behind his back and later in the truck when he reprehends you if you side with her. And when Mike and Bonnie betray the group and Arvo shoots Clem was probably when Jane's trust in Kenny got down to 0. She had now seen, first hand, the damage that men could do to people around him. Later on, Kenny keeps enforcing his plan and Jane is clearly sick of him. They both throw unforgivable insults at each other and then we get separated from Kenny. Jane asks Clem to leave Kenny and the game doesn't even give Clem a choice. Clem will object no matter what and Jane will understand that Clem might not understand that Kenny isn't Kenny anymore and that it was dangerous being around him. Clem didn't get that and Jane needed to show her in order to protect her (again, this is all Jane's perspective. Although I agree with it, I'm not calling this facts or anything). I hope this explains why Jane did what she did. I don't remember where you got the...
when they nearly crashed was check is to ask her if she’s ok first, before AJ, AJ again, and Clementine, and her first thought is to desire his death?!
...from. When did this happen? This leads me to my next point. Jane's intentions with her plan and what she was trying to accomplish.
Jane never implies that she wanted Kenny dead. Her plan and intentions were simple, the only problem really is that the plan itself wasn't the best one (this is understandable considering she only made it up while walking in the blizzard. In other words, she made the plan under extreme conditions and had 3-5 minutes to think it up). She would hide AJ in a safe place (and if you don't consider it a safe place feel free to object, but please consider the points I made in this thread (p.4), first. She would claim it was an accident and as expected Kenny would attack without a shred of evidence. She would then try to get herself free/dodge his attack and try to calm him down. Then she would tell Kenny and Clem about AJ's whereabouts and plead Clem to leave him. This could've gone this way, but Jane underestimated how angry Kenny would be.
Shifting to the actual scene... Jane's plan seemed to be going as planned. She dodges Kenny's first attack and tries to calm him down and he does appear to calm down. She puts her blade away, and before she knew it, she was being attacked again. This made Jane angry and, after that, everything went downhill. The way you talk about the fight is clearly one sided and biased (no offense, but it is) you claim that Jane started by trying to murder Kenny and completely omit the fact that she put away her blade that shows that she did not intend the fight to go any further.
I admire what you did here. Although not agreeing with it, I acknowledge that this is a deeper analysis than the average Jane hater would do. I congratulate you for that and I ask you to object if you found anything that you disagreed with. It's the first time I actually analyse a character in such depth and write that analysis so please any feedback is appreciated.
Keep these threads coming, please, they're pretty interesting!
Sorry it took so long to reply, mate/love. I came back to gather info for my future plans I kept mentioning and saw your extensive comment. Now, let's see if I can answer your thoughts:
Let's talk about Jane 'murdering' Troy. So, can Jane killing Troy be classified as 'murder'? I don't think so. Troy, who had just seen the dead body of his leader, find our group fleeing his community after killing his leader (in a not-so-pleasant way) and points a gun at Luke. So, should Jane's action be classified as a sick heartless murder or killing in order to save the group?
Not actually rereading what I said because I'm lazy(and hungry), I believe the idea was that Troy didn't seem to have done something to her specifically that would cause her to kill him: basically, using Troy to play the numbers game and referencing him as brilliant foreshadowing to her later actions. Also, did he see Carver's corpse? I don't remember him stating that.
She advises Clem and Rebecca to spread out even after seeing the pregnant Rebecca plead to not leave them which enforces the idea of cold, stoic and pragmatic survivor Jane. But then, this 'cold' person who can't bare having liabilities in her group has a change of heart and changes her plan in order to help two liabilities. Hmmm... this doesn't line up, does it? This what Jane says and thinks vs what Jane actually does appears a lot during this episode and is later explained when Jane leaves the group. This is one of the most important aspects about her character arc, so keep this in mind.
I was gonna write up a justification for saying that...but you're right. As I stated not to long after that, Jane was a character I was neutral towards but also saw a lot of things that got me invested in her. I believe I intended to use that as both an example of how untrustworthy she is vs. how morally conflicted she can be.
"Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you" what? Where did you get this from? It's such an inaccurate way to see Jane's real motives in this scene.
Yeeeah...hate might've been a strong word. I meant that Jane's survivalist ways isn't too different from Carver's and I speculate he may have inspired some of that thought process. She refered to Sarah, a relatively weakwilled person, as a liability and tried to get Clementine to give up on her.
Superficially, who causes Sarah's death? Sarah. No ifs, not buts. Sarah chose not no save herself. Sarah chose to be in that situation.
I am refering to Sarah's "canon" 2nd death, to more specific. While I didn't endorse the 1st death either, that was at least justified as a tense, knee-jerk reaction to a situation that Sarah indirectly started by being there. Next question....
Let's talk about 'Saving' Sarah. What you brought back to the group felt like Sarah? The only thing I saw in Sarah after she's 'saved' is an empty shell, crying for her dead father that would never come back. In her second death (and I will talk about Jane's involvement in this later) we see her in a life or death situation and the only way Sarah reacts is by calling for her dad. Even when partially freed she refuses to do anything but call for her dad. Even if she had survived for longer, could she ever get over her father's death, the man who she depended on?
Wow...that's really bumming me out, dude. I know Sarah might not have completely recovered and I always suspected something similar would happen early on(again, future plans), but its like Kenny said,"What if Lee didn't go tearin across half of Georgia and gave up on saving you?"* There's a friggin statue* representing NO ONE GETS LEFT BEHIND, for Pete's sake!
As for the bold segment, I explained that part in another reply somewhere so to save time, I'll just try to repost it here later. In a nutshell: the Situation as a whole was messed up for a multitude of reasons.
Changing the subject, let's talk about Arvo and the observation deck thing. Let's play the blame game, shall we?Play blame game
Check out Part Two, which spoilers but not really focuses on that Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain. Also, I completely omitted Jane's tendency to back down from doing shady things because this is supposed to be about her shady nature(and because I apparently forgot ).
Let's talk about the second Sarah death. First of all, blaming it on Jane and Luke for having sex is just way too far-fetched.
I've had this conversation waayy too many times(including with myself!) to try to talk about it right now. Because, let's be honest, its a major reason why I did these kind of topics(and joined the site) in the first place. So, I'm gonna have to cop out a bit on this one. Either look throughout the other comments for my winded explainations or wait until I find the time to copy and paste it here. Don't hold your breathe on that last one, though.
What does this show us about Jane? What does this character receive after doing all of this? She is called cold and heartless and is blamed for things that weren't even under her control! That's pretty unfair.
Again, you're right. I didn't mean to completely gloss over her positive traits, but here's the thing: It's called being Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Sometimes, selfless actions and good intentions don't completely make up for serious issues with one's personality and behavior. If that was the case, Ben Paul would be heralded as the greatest hero of all time!
'But why does she leave, exactly?' "You know... Jaime... Sarah... I'm not gonna stick around and... And watch it happen to you, too." And this is basically Jane's story arc reduced to one line. She leaves because she wants to avoid seeing any of those things happen to Clem because it would cause her great emotional pain.
I'm pretty sure I addressed that in Episode 5's section but just to reitorate: That would've been fine if she hadn't returned later with that aspect completely forgotten in her rejoining of the group. And that's just sloppy.
In the path where you stole the supplies perhaps this can be considered a slightly gray vs gray conflict (with the Russians being waaay closer to black), but in the not steal path it's just simply a white vs black conflict which makes Arvo and his friends villains, plain and simple. And this is where I kinda lost your point: blaming this solely on Jane. Jane didn't force this Russians to ambush the group, to demand all the supplies instead of trying to take back what was actually taken from them, or to try and resolve the matter with force. So blaming the Russians deaths and Luke and Mike getting shot on her is just nitpicking.
I'm sorry, but your (mostly correct) point about morality made me laugh incredibly hard because, yes, the Russians do seem obviously evil. But, to be serious, the idea is that Jane started the conflict in the first place by threatening Arvo. If she had apologized and gave back the gun and he still came after the group, then he would be entirely in the wrong. I went more in depth into this in Part Two, so feel free to give it a read if you want more.
I also wanted to ask why you call the "I didn't know this man... I never killed someone that didn't wrong me in some way... that didn't deserve it." bullshit? What makes you assume that what she's saying is a lie?
Now that was mostly nitpicking for the sake of comedy. Plus, I was indirectly referring to her track record so far that made me seriously doubt that claim.
Jane has come back. And you and the rest of the group urges her to bond with people. The thing that Jane avoids to do in order to protect herself. She does it anyways and after Luke's death, we can clearly see that she was right about what she was saying. Bonding with people causes suffering.
Not really sure if you're refering to something I said specifically, but I agree. It's just that Jane's has one/two strike(s) against her due to sloppy storytelling, so I probably forgot to mention several positives throughout. Plus, it was probably day four/five when I got to that part, so eh.
It's a pretty interesting perspective actually. What makes Kenny and Carver so different? They both seem to enjoy beating people, both are able to murder people out of any- (Do not go into 'Kenny rant' mode, DO. NOT. GO.). Ehh, disregard what I was saying!
Lol. Admittedly, I practically did the same thing with Jane, so don't feel too ashamed. If anything, feel free to make a seperate comment about your thoughts towards him or any other character. That's what this thread was supposed to be about!
I don't remember where you got the..."when they nearly crashed was check is to ask her if she’s ok first, before AJ, AJ again, and Clementine, and her first thought is to desire his death?!"...from. When did this happen?
You can look up a playthrough on Youtube but immediately when their near crash stopped their argument. And the death comment was most likely me either getting ahead of myself or considering the fridge logic/horror of leaving him behind in a snowstorm.
Jane's intentions with her plan and what she was trying to accomplish. Jane never implies that she wanted Kenny dead. Her plan and intentions were simple, the only problem really is that the plan itself wasn't the best one.This could've gone this way, but Jane underestimated how angry Kenny would be. The way you talk about the fight is clearly one sided and biased (no offense, but it is) you claim that Jane started by trying to murder Kenny and completely omit the fact that she put away her blade that shows that she did not intend the fight to go any further.
I tried to preface the fight itself with a more neutral analysis of the two so as to make it clear that, while I might be more negative towards Jane, I saw both as being complementarilly grey. But, I so much harder on her because she, after all the other shit that made me biased against her, made a relatively self-serving plan that relied on abandoning (and technically endangering) a baby to get a desperate, emotionally unstable man to attack her to convince a similarly jaded girl to abandon him so she would come with her. She may not have intended on anyone getting killed but he/she/they did and, as Kenny sorta points out in his ending, she was supposed to be the rational, coolheaded one and yet she ended up wanting to kill him just as much as he wanted to hurt her. And I added the points about her chasing after him with the knife after the initial editting process.
I admire what you did here. Although not agreeing with it, I acknowledge that this is a deeper analysis than the average Jane hater would do. I congratulate you for that and I ask you to object if you found anything that you disagreed with. It's the first time I actually analyse a character in such depth and write that analysis so please any feedback is appreciated.
Keep these threads coming, please, they're pretty interesting!
Thanks! Plus, it was a great way to vent my frustrations with the character and hopefully, encourage others to choose their own personal petpeeve and do the same.
(I lost the original text, so I'm writing this again. So, if for some reason I sound infuriated it's because of that.)
(Before commenting a… morend objecting try reading everything, piece by piece. I think I made a very good job on analysing Jane's character. If you hate her or you are a hardcore Kenny or Sarah fan read this with an open mind!)
I think that what you did here is pretty impressive. You surely took a lot of your time to write all of this. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost everything. Take no offense but some things you blamed on Jane were just plain nitpicks that were caused by time, circumstance and many, many other people. I also think that you exaggerated this 'Jane vs Sarah' situation.
My opinion, just as yours, might be biased but in an opposite way because I like Jane.
Let's talk about Jane 'murdering' Troy. Murdering someone is the act of killing another without a proper reason to do so while killing someone is ju… [view original content]
This was an easy one. You knew this was who I was talking about. Now, let me make this clear: Jane is a very emotional, thought provoking, and morally complex character and probably one of the most well written aspects of Season 2. Unfortunately, she also has the honor of being one of the rare characters I legitimate hate. Let me count the ways:
• In Episode 3, she is introduced as a weird, vaguely creepy loner who was found sneaking around Howe’s Hardware. She’s so suspicious, that even the otherwise meek and lighthearted Sarah and Reggie disgustedly identify her as a weirdo. Anyway, she and Mike mostly hang around in the background and do the daily work, until they get attacked by walkers and overhear the Ski Cabin Group’s plans to escape. Jane apparently speaks up for the first time with the Walker Gut Trick as a strategy, which establishes her as being a stoic survivalist, and is most likely backed up by the efforts of Clementine and Lee.(Good one, Lee!) Later, after the death of Carver, she quickly demonstrates how to camouflage oneself against walkers when Troy comes out and is hilariously grossed out by everyone. And, in what is suspicious loose end cutting on the first playthrough and brilliant foreshadowing in hindsight, Jane slyly and somewhat creepily pacifies Troy by reminding him of their agreement and ‘‘relationship,’’ hence the picture used up above. Surprisingly, Troy confirms her comments and is genuinely concerned about where they’re gonna go. Due his ignorance towards the fact that she is creeping up to him over her smell, Jane shoots Troy in the crotch and coldly marches off-screen as his screams make him bait for the walkers, sternly telling everyone to shut the hell up as they move through the herd. So, in summary, Jane was a nebulous minor character who I was neutral towards: her “badass” presentation didn’t really do much to win me over and her overall creepy way of watching people, casual murder of potential, if a bit asshole-victimish, ally, and initial resemblance to a dirty, shaved, and possibly younger Lily made her hard to trust.
• In Amid the Ruins, Jane is the primary focus of the story, eclipsing fellow co-stars Kenny, Rebecca, and especially Sarah, for better or worse. Here, we get a majority of her characterization: Jane is a cold, pragmatic survivalist whose reluctantly self-caused one-bad-day has made her bitter to the notion of being in a group with ‘liabilities’. These traits make her a foil for both Clementine and Carver, and the inverse of Season 1’s Molly. Now, personally, I found myself emotionally invested in her struggles: she was forced to wearily abandon her little sister Jaime after weeks of trying to keep her alive, innocently but insensitively gets on the bad side of Rebecca, has a grey one-sided rivalry with Sarah (more on that later), becomes disgusted with herself when she attempts to steal a medicine stash for Rebecca from a wounded boy named Arvo (more on that later), has sex as a pastime for the almost exclusive benefit of others (I am not a slutshamer, so no love lost there), has numerous callbacks to the day her sister died forced on her, and is constantly conflicted due to feeling connected to Clementine against her better judgment. She was a troubled cynic, embittered by a tough world to accept the Darwinist outlooks of Crawford and Carver and it was [My!]Clementine’s duty to show her value of being a part of a group and prove that there is Staying Life in the World of the Walking Dead. (Yes, its corny, but that’s what this game brings out of you.) But, you can only stay gray for so long before you start doing things that turn you black, so let’s get to the demonizing aspects of Jane’s character and one of the most divisive aspect of the Walking Dead game series in general: the rivalry between Jane and Sarah. Look, I’ll be frank and spare you some of 10-page essay that is my thoughts of Sarah because this is about Jane; one of the reasons it took me nearly 5 days to compile my thoughts and make this post is that I had a hard time not going into rant mode. To sum it up, I think this “rivalry”, as I’ve been calling it, had a lot of potential for character growth for both Jane and Sarah. Jane’s insistence that Sarah’s catatonia over Carlos’s death makes her a liability that should be left behind just like her sister makes her come off as a bit heartless, but it’s not without its valid justifications that teaches a hard to live with lesson; Sarah’s potential resentment towards Jane, and determinately Clementine, for even considering this could help make her character a not so harmless, even much more passive-aggressive one, because yes, as legitimately shocking as it is to imagine/witness, Sarah is a sweet human being who is nevertheless not without her darker side. These facts, combined with the various parallels and divergences among the three girls/young-women, could have made for an intense three-way dispute that not only questions the dichotomy of loyalty vs. survivalism, but also brings the player’s own opinions and interactions with them to the forefront. However, the problem with this rivalry should be obvious: it’s almost completely one-sided on Jane’s side, and as I’ll mention in the next episode, that is an example of a major reason why Jane comes off as so infuriatingly unsympathetic to me. Sarah gets one line that indirectly implies some internal resentment before she dies on Jane’s watch, because of Jane’s actions. Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you, without them actually doing anything to warrant being punished, doesn’t make you a pragmatist, an anti-hero, or even justbarely unscrupulous; it makes you a bully. It’s a phenomenon I call “Dead Little Brother’s Bully Syndrome”: Jane, a new grey “useful” character who the game wants me to love in one episode despite her flaws, just got Sarah, an old white (of morality, not race) “liability” character who had 3 episodes to make herself one of my favorites because I found her to be endearing, killed because of selfish negligence, insistent projection, and lack of care for anyone’s safety, and, spoiler warning, this is barely acknowledged as Jane chooses to just walk out on the group. The only completely good/useful thing to come out of this plothole-inducing plothole* is that Luke’s failed-to-payoff hero complex, own survivor’s guilt, and personal frustrations comes to a boiling point and he gets a thorough talking-to from Kenny, of all people**, to get his shit together. By the end of the episode, I was left feeling cheated and bitter. …Let’s just end this.
• In No Turning Back, we get mixed bag of things that simultaneously is what makes Jane such a source of anger for me and ingeniously ties everything together for an intense climax. So, as I may have skimmed over in the previous episode, Jane left the group out of a sense of twisted survival’s guilt due to Sarah’s catatonia and… ‘accident’* reminding her of Jaime’s death and that, sooner or later, everyone’s luck runs out. What I didn’t mention was that episode ends with another screw-up on her part: Arvo, his anemic sister Natasha (see below), and “close-friends”sarcasm mode Buricko and Vitali ambushed the Howe’s Ski Cabin Group looking to get even with her. Postponing my point for a little while longer, this results in Rebecca turning while everyone is distracted, Mike getting shot in the arm, Luke receiving a game breaking injury in the leg (which later gets him killed), Natasha turning and getting put down by Clementine, Arvo getting a motivation to personally hate Clementine and Kenny, Kenny’s instability being brought to the forefront with his vengeful abuse of Arvo, and the yet-to-be-named baby AJ is nearly eaten or shot in the crossfire. So, basically, Jane caused nearly every bad thing that happens in this episode with a single unnecessary action. Duck, Ben, Nick, and Sarah are all in Rotten World (points to those who get that reference)/their nonexistent graves/wherever, hanging their heads in humbled faux jealousy. Oh wait, no they’re not, because, unlike Jane, they’re not FUCKING SOCIOPATHS! …Well, Sarah might be*, but that’s not the point. Did I mention Sarah’s one of my favorite characters in Season 2? *(Video 1) Anyway, after impaling the kookily psychotic Vitali in the back of neck, and getting shaken up by the fact that she “never killed anyone who hadn't hurt her first” coughBullshitcough, she then rejoins the group to try and make things work. With the group’s (especially Luke and determinately Clementine) only complaint being the fact that she left them. …NO! NO! BAD STORY! BAD! She considers leaving Clementine and Rebecca behind, implies that Rebecca should ditch AJ, repeatedly tries to get Clementine to give up on her friends, repeatedly insists that Sarah was gonna get someone killed, provokes Arvo by stealing his gun, distracts Luke with dat punani, puts off trying to help Sarah out of the situation *she caused (though her delivery admittedly got a chuckle), lets Sarah suffer by being a clumsy coward, and walks out on everyone after the fact, and THAT’s the reason you don’t trust her?! Forget about that ineffectual sympathetic villain Arvo (see below); Jane is the Master of the Karma Houdini!!! And, just to add insult to injury, you know that hint of survival’s guilt she had over Sarah’s death? Never brought up again….. So, before I make this the Sarah discussion like I said I wouldn’t (don’t worry sweetie, your time will come*****), let’s get to what this episode does right. While it was cool that Jane showed up just in time to stop Vitali from killing everyone, she loses a few points for getting them in this mess in the first place; on a side note, the implication that she was there for a while but hesitated because he never wronged her personally is fine by me since it implies she actually has standards and something resembling a conscience. Later, after witnessing the evidence that Kenny is becoming psychotic on Arvo (who doesn’t give** her** the stink eye or think to slit her Luke-fucking throat in her sleep, by the way), she once again shows her rational pragmatism by trying to convince Clementine that Kenny is losing it. The reason this is a good thing is because it’s based on truth and facts. For various reasons, Jane is also a foil to Kenny: calm vs. hot-tempered, functional vs. unstable, working alone vs. teamwork, self-righteous vs. acknowledging of own flaws, and manipulative vs. opinionated, both are selfish, but well-meaning hypocrites who are stuck on the losses of the past and are willing do nearly anything to protect the people they consider family. After Clementine wakes up from being nicked by Arvo’s bad aim (I’m sorry, Arvo), Jane starts an argument with Kenny about where they should go and it quickly escalates into a series of admittedly funny zings and then some not so funny personal strikes at each other. While I don’t approve of Jane throwing Kenny’s extremely powerful demons back in his face (seriously, I thought the dude was gonna start cryin’ behind the wheel at one point), they’re both being incredibly petty, inconsiderate, and childish, so Kenny doesn’t get special treatment. [My!]Clementine doesn’t care who started it, she’llfinish it! When Kenny stops the truck to go check for diesel in the rush hour, Jane starts channeling him by getting vindictively angry and tries to convince Clementine to leave him to die. The dude’s first impulse when they nearly crashed was check is to ask her if she’s ok first, before AJ, AJ again, and Clementine, and her first thought is to desire his death?!(Video 2) See, what these scenes actually understand, and take advantage of, is that Jane is actually in the wrong. Earlier, her attempts to get Clementine to abandon her friends was her being overly pragmatic, innocently insensitive, or completely selfish due to her not liking being with them; the story automatically assumed it should portray this as Jane being in the right, even when it wasn’t a display of her grey morality. Here, while I still don’t know if I’d call Kenny a gray character (just more of a very dark shade of white, which might as well be gray at that point), he is a bit hard to deal with at times and is almost ready to lose it, but the characters and story usually remembered to call him out when he’s clearly in the wrong and also make it clear that his heart was usually in the right place, even if his attitude sometimes made this hard to believe; by contrast, Jane’s reasoning is just as much cold pragmatism as it is her selfish desire to be rid of Kenny and keep Clementine for herself. However, I admit that I’m not too different from some of the people who can’t stand Kenny: Jane had done a lot in her meager three episodes to get on my bad side, try my patience, and overall wear out her welcome despite being the rational one, whereas Kenny, despite hanging around longer than he probably should’ve and determinately being even worse than she is, at least had a history of good deeds, sympathy, and loyalty in spite of his tendency to hold a grudge to back him up. So, as a result, she might actually bring up some points that I might agree with, but the dislike is so strong at this point that I might actually disagree out of spite. Yes, even when I agree with her, I don’t wannafuckin’ agree with her because I hate her! She’s an awful human being! So, as aggressively pragmatic and coldly opinionated as this may sound (guess you can say both Kenny and Jane rubbed off on me), I was only using both of them out of friendship, loyalty, and convenience at that point. My plan was always get to Wellington since it was debatably the best and closest option and, should that not turn out to be a bust necessitating a return to Howe’s Hardware, put Kenny down (out of respect for his help and mercy for his suffering) and due unto Jane the brand of justice that she inherited from Carver. Jane, as you know, had other plans: when things went fubar, Jane escapes from the truck with a walker in pursuit and gets a head start into the dramatically convenient snowstorm. When she finally comes drudging up freezing her huge hooters off, without the baby, she magnificently allows Kenny to draw his own conclusions so that he’ll charge out into the storm and return in vengeful sorrow. Now, we get what is to me a legitimately intense climax: Kenny vs. Jane. This fight takes advantage of the Grey vs. Gray Morality that I expect from a series like the Walking Dead: Jane and Kenny, for better or worse, both have traits that make them likeable as well as unlikeable; neither one is drastically superior to the other in this field—for the most part. I knew Jane still needed to pay for all the pain and suffering she caused for me personally (Get my two favorite characters of this season killed so you can replace them without any consequence? I don’t think so. ), but I also couldn’t let Kenny give in to his despair and just up and kill someone like Lily did; it was a legitimately hard decision. So, I did what I knew and felt was right and eventually shot Kenny; after he finally passed on to be with Katjaa and Duck and maybe also Sarita (in Hell(?))***, with his only tragic regrets being that he’s sorry he screwed things up and that, now that he’s finally dying like he thought he wanted, he’s scared (seriously, that’s somber as heck), the truth came out: Jane staged the whole thing, potentially endangering AJ and Clementine’s health, just to prove a point. Even her apology rings a little hollow when you realize that for all her talk that Kenny went farther than she expected, she sure seemed confident that she was always right and would win their “who kills who” contest during the fight. Her only redeeming quality at this point is that, while she took things way too far for comfort, she really has grown to care about someone else again: she’s addicted to Clementine!(Video 3) I will refuse to lie and say that Kenny was saint, (because with his tyrannical overtones, which isn’t too far away from Carver, fuck no; he seriously was bordering on Nominal Hero territory at times) but at least I knew, not so deep down, that his actions were based on good intentions for the benefit of someone else. But, in the end, he was just too naturally pigheaded, mentally desperate, and emotionally unstable to be considered a safe ally; Jane doesn’t have that excuse and that’s three strikes: she now* officially* has a murder streak, with Jaime, Troy, Sarah, Natasha, Vitali, Luke (debatably), and Kenny’s mostly innocent blood on her hands! This disgusted me so much that after the credits rolled, I saw the alone ending, and looked up the endings online, I replayed that chapter just to make sure this borderline nothing, as Kenny put it, was dead. The fact that she did things in the fight such as angrily chase after himback out into the snow with her knife prepared, blamed him for everything that went wrong (which doesn’t really make as much sense the more I think about it), got even more angry every time she had a chance to break it up, showed sadistic glee while gouging his already crushed eye, and, worst of all, used secrecy and manipulation to get an ally and fellow group member killed only made it that much easier. It still kinda bothers me that I can’t do the deed myself (or that she can’t be the one to kill Kenny, so she can at least say she died a truly successful villain), but hey, just another reason to hate her and look forward to Season 3.
So, in conclusion, Jane, who I hate for mostly legitimate reasons, can get eaten alive by walkers and join them for all I care. And I normally wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy, not even her inspiration, Carver****, but ah well, I can make an exception every once in a while. After all, why should I give her a fourth/fifth/sixth chance when the story is literally bending over backwards for her sake?
References
*Teasing Sequel Hook…?
**No offense/defense to Kenny fans/haters. I’m positively neutral towards the guy.
***No, but seriously, that is a legit question: Are they all in the same place?
****I am so sorry, fans of Carver and Jane; I just don’t like those two. I can just scrape by dealing with Carver; I cannot deal with Jane. I mostly understand why you like them (well, her anyway), but that’s how powerful the hatred is at this point.
*****No offense to Reds, Commies, Russkies, piece of shits, or shitbirds.
Thank you, I appreciate it. My opinion here is too neutral though, even knowing that they create some characters in order to cause us a dete… morermined reaction, the link that these characters build between players and creators is too relative and too subjective, some characters being as open to them as they are to us.
Comments
Jane offered Luke sex for solace when his hero complex was starting to weight him down, which meant he wasn't on the lookout like he was supposed to be. A herd of walkers got attracted by Rebecca going into labor and Sarah had to force herself out of her trauma to warn Clementine and get everyone moving. Clementine and Luke unintentionally cause the observation deck to collapse, getting Sarah precariously trapped under some rubble. Jane is the only one in a position to go help her but she initially tries to convince you otherwise. If Jane does go down there, she ends up getting distracted by an inconvenient loose plank and abandon's Sarah like a clumsy coward.
So, basically, Jane was the catalyst to the situation that gets Sarah slaughtered. So some people, like myself, feel content to put the entire incident on her head, which is no doubt helped by the ill will she had built up beforehand because she clearly didn't like Sarah and tried to convince Clementine to give up on her numerous times.
While I do think Lilly might be an interesting subject to tacle, I honestly didn't give Bonnie to much of a thought when she wasn't in the spotlight.
Feel free to make your own separate comment about either one or any other character whose portrayal in the story was at odds with your opinions here or in Part Two. That's why I made these threads!
Also, nice topic you made recently!
Thank you, I appreciate it. My opinion here is too neutral though, even knowing that they create some characters in order to cause us a determined reaction, the link that these characters build between players and creators is too relative and too subjective, some characters being as open to them as they are to us.
(I lost the original text, so I'm writing this again. So, if for some reason I sound infuriated it's because of that.)
(Before commenting and objecting try reading everything, piece by piece. I think I made a very good job on analysing Jane's character. If you hate her or you are a hardcore Kenny or Sarah fan read this with an open mind!)
I think that what you did here is pretty impressive. You surely took a lot of your time to write all of this. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost everything. Take no offense but some things you blamed on Jane were just plain nitpicks that were caused by time, circumstance and many, many other people. I also think that you exaggerated this 'Jane vs Sarah' situation.
My opinion, just as yours, might be biased but in an opposite way because I like Jane.
Let's talk about Jane 'murdering' Troy. Murdering someone is the act of killing another without a proper reason to do so while killing someone is just the act of killing another human being. While a murderer is necessarily a killer, a killer isn't necessarily a murderer. So, can Jane killing Troy be classified as 'murder'? I don't think so. Troy, who had just seen the dead body of his leader, find our group fleeing his community after killing his leader (in a not-so-pleasant way) and points a gun at Luke. What would've happened if Jane had not intervened? Luke and possibly some more group members' death was more than granted. The ones who survived (if any) would most definitely be taken back to Howe's (and we all know that Howe's fate isn't a good one). So, should Jane's action be classified as a sick heartless murder or killing in order to save the group?
What had Jane showed us about her personality until the moment? She looked like a cold, stoic survivor (as you said) who didn't seem to want to bond with the group making her also anti-social and, to some people, even weird. (keyword: 'showed')
Episode 4! Amid The Ruins
Some really bloody moments later, in episode 4, we bump into her while trying to escape the herd with a pregnant Rebecca. She advises Clem and Rebecca to spread out even after seeing the pregnant Rebecca plead to not leave them which enforces the idea of cold, stoic and pragmatic survivor Jane. But then, this 'cold' person who can't bare having liabilities in her group has a change of heart and changes her plan in order to help two liabilities. Hmmm... this doesn't line up, does it? Does the cold-hearted Jane care about the group??? This is one of the many times where we see Jane saying something cold and pragmatic while acting in a different way. This what Jane says and thinks vs what Jane actually does appears a lot during this episode and is later explained when Jane leaves the group. This is one of the most important aspects about her character arc, so keep this in mind.
In the following scenes with her, she tells us how she feels about our group and its situation. She refers to the baby as 'Rebecca's situation' and refers to it as a problem and liability. But this once again makes us see the contrast between what she think and what she does. Why doesn't Jane, a supposed 'loner', leave? She makes it clear that she thinks that the group is falling apart and she also shows her discomfort towards Rebecca's baby coming yet she stays and helps the group that she's uncomfortable with. This makes me question if 'Jane the cold, pragmatic, anti-social, rational' loner only exists in her words (more on that later).
Let's talk about Sarah. I'll quote you on this one.
"Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you" what? Where did you get this from? It's such an inaccurate way to see Jane's real motives in this scene. I understand that Sarah is one of your favourite characters which makes you want to blame someone for her dead but your perception of this scene doesn't combine with anything the characters actually show us. Let's reanalyse the scene from the more superficial level (what characters actually did (or 'the blame game' as some would cal it)) and from the character's perspective.
Superficially, who causes Sarah's death? Sarah. No ifs, not buts. Sarah chose not no save herself. Sarah chose to be in that situation. I recognize that it was due to her mental illness but that doesn't make it any less true. Blaming it on Jane is simply wrong since Jane didn't put Sarah in that situation and she also didn't force Sarah to not react.
Now, let's look at the characters perspective (more specifically Jane's perspective). She and Clem left the group to find this girl who she never interacted with. When they find her she is static, unable to react and they are trapped inside an RV that will be overrun by walkers in minutes. From Jane's past experiences she knows that whatever 'Sarah' once was is not there anymore and that she couldn't be saved (more on that in a late paragraph). So she does the only logical thing to do. She tries to save who can be saved; Clementine. She doesn't suggest leaving Sarah because she 'hates' or wants to mistreat Sarah. She does it because their lives were on the line and she wanted to save the ones who were able to be saved.
But even thinking and knowing all that, Jane still decides to remain in the RV with Clem and Sarah. This supposedly 'cold' pragmatic survivor yet again prioritises the lives of other people over her safety. She waits for Clem and (determinant) Sarah to be in safety before going up herself (and let's be real, in the 'save' Sarah path Jane would've died in that RV). This is another one of those what Jane says and thinks vs what Jane actually does situations. She thinks that Sarah is too far gone and that they should save themselves but instead stays until Sarah is brought to safety.
Let's talk about 'Saving' Sarah. What you brought back to the group felt like Sarah? The only thing I saw in Sarah after she's 'saved' is an empty shell, crying for her dead father that would never come back. In her second death (and I will talk about Jane's involvement in this later) we see her in a life or death situation and the only way Sarah reacts is by calling for her dad. Even when partially freed she refuses to do anything but call for her dad. So, in the end, in which path did Sarah suffer the most? Was Jane right after all, could Sarah really be saved? Even if she had survived for longer, could she ever get over her father's death, the man who she depended on?
Changing the subject, let's talk about Arvo and the observation deck thing. Let's play the blame game, shall we?
It's very simple, did you agree to steal the supplies? Then the blame is on you and Jane and you aren't able to blame her for it otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite!
You didn't steal? Then good for you! Jane certainly didn't steal as well ('hurrr, she stole his gun'. It's called disarming a potential threat and if Arvo and his group attacked us because of a gun, then they're clearly way too territorial bandits).
And it's also worth noting that once again we get what Jane says and thinks vs what Jane actually does:
Let's talk about the second Sarah death. First of all, blaming it on Jane and Luke for having sex is just way too far-fetched. What that did was reckless, sure, but thankfully it barely had any consequences. 'If Luke was doing his job instead of fucking Jane he would've spotted the walkers and Sarah would be alive' and how would Sarah be alive in that scenario? Luke would warn the group that walker was coming to their direction. They would've hidden in the Observation deck. Rebbeca would go into labour attracting the walker to the observation deck. And the scene would play out as usual.
About the actual death itself, after the deck collapsed for the first time and Sarah is trapped under the wood planks we get the choice to tell Jane to save Sarah. If we do tell her, she will actually risk her life to save a girl that she thinks is too far gone. Additionally, Jane will choose to save Sarah if you say silent. That's right, she will go down there on her own, without Clem asking for anything!
What does this show us about Jane? She helps Rebecca and Clem escape the herd, she sticks with the group that she thinks is falling apart, she risks her life in order to get Clem and possibly Sarah to safety, she considers stealing from a kid in order to ensure Rebecca a comfortable labour and she later saves Sarah again even knowing that there wasn't ay chance of that girl making it out, all this against what she thinks and believes. What does this character receive after doing all of this? She is called cold and heartless and is blamed for things that weren't even under her control! That's pretty unfair.
She later leaves the group. Why leaving the group now? The answer is simple. The baby was delivered, everyone was safe again, they didn't need her help anymore. 'But why does she leave, exactly?' "You know... Jaime... Sarah... I'm not gonna stick around and... And watch it happen to you, too." And this is basically Jane's story arc reduced to one line. This is why Jane is a 'weird loner'. She fears to bond with people because she knows that in that world chances are that most aren't going to make it, some will disappear, some will give up and some will even turn on you. She leaves because she wants to avoid seeing any of those things happen to Clem because it would cause her great emotional pain.
Episode 5! No Going Back
Let's play the blame game again. Why did the Russians attack? For stealing the medical supplies? You and Jane are to blame (although she never steals without your consent), even though they could ask for the rest of the pills instead of threatening you, but whatever. If they're attacking because of that little gun, then we can assume that they are bandits. Any normal person would ask for the gun back (yes, even in the apocalypse) but these fellas decide to point guns at your group and demand all of your supplies, because of a little gun! In the path where you stole the supplies perhaps this can be considered a slightly gray vs gray conflict (with the Russians being waaay closer to black), but in the not steal path it's just simply a white vs black conflict which makes Arvo and his friends villains, plain and simple. And this is where I kinda lost your point: blaming this solely on Jane. Jane didn't force this Russians to ambush the group. Jane didn't force them to demand all the supplies instead of trying to take back what was actually taken from them. Jane didn't force them to try and resolve the matter with force. So blaming the Russians deaths and Luke and Mike getting shot on her is just nitpicking.
I also wanted to ask why you call the "I didn't know this man... I never killed someone that didn't wrong me in some way... that didn't deserve it." bullshit? What makes you assume that what she's saying is a lie?
Jane has come back. And you and the rest of the group urges her to bond with people. The thing that Jane avoids to do in order to protect herself. She does it anyways and after Luke's death, we can clearly see that she was right about what she was saying. Bonding with people causes suffering. And that made her suffer the loss of Luke. Later in the episode, this is proven once again (although not so bluntly) when Bonnie and Mike betray the group. We do not see Jane suffering over this, but she must've been obviously sad about it.
And... everyone's favourite! Kenny vs Jane. The first thing we get to know about a Kenny-Jane relationship is that Kenny holds Jane responsible for the Russian's acts ("You're the reason these fuckers came after us in the first place!"). After he starts beating Arvo, Jane seems opposed to his actions (just as everyone else in the group, lol) and tries to appeal to Kenny's reason. This shows us some kind of passive mistrust between these two characters. Jane then tells Clem that she worries about Kenny mental state, fearing that he might be getting to a dark place after the loss of Sarita. There's little interaction between the two characters. We see Jane talking with Kenny while treating Luke (then Mike joins them), but unfortunately, there's nothing we can make out of that. After reaching the house and realising that Kenny is beating Arvo, she reprehends him by yelling saying that Kenny made a rash conclusion because there was, in fact, food in the house, just as Arvo had promised. Kenny probably didn't like that which made his mistrust towards Jane increase and Jane seemed very pissed at Kenny which made her worry about his mental state increase even more along with her mistrust. She then warns Clem that Kenny might be too far gone comparing him to Carver, saying that Carver was probably a nice guy too, once. It's a pretty interesting perspective actually. What makes Kenny and Carver so different? They both seem to enjoy beating people, both are able to murder people out of any- (Do not go into 'Kenny rant' mode, DO. NOT. GO.). Ehh, disregard what I was saying! ... About Jane and Kenny's relationship Jane seems to think that Kenny might be too far gone. which increases her mistrust on him (that was already very low). When Kenny gets the truck working Jane argues that it might be best going back to Howe's (which is debatable) since they had a location and they knew there was formula back there, which Kenny disregards, screaming, and dictates that they were heading North whether the group wanted it or not. Did Jane's trust in Kenny increase? I guess not. Kenny's trust in Jane is also seen to be damaged, perhaps not so damaged as Jane's trust in Kenny is, but damaged nevertheless which is shown by Kenny when he suggests that Jane was talking behind his back and later in the truck when he reprehends you if you side with her. And when Mike and Bonnie betray the group and Arvo shoots Clem was probably when Jane's trust in Kenny got down to 0. She had now seen, first hand, the damage that men could do to people around him. Later on, Kenny keeps enforcing his plan and Jane is clearly sick of him. They both throw unforgivable insults at each other and then we get separated from Kenny. Jane asks Clem to leave Kenny and the game doesn't even give Clem a choice. Clem will object no matter what and Jane will understand that Clem might not understand that Kenny isn't Kenny anymore and that it was dangerous being around him. Clem didn't get that and Jane needed to show her in order to protect her (again, this is all Jane's perspective. Although I agree with it, I'm not calling this facts or anything). I hope this explains why Jane did what she did. I don't remember where you got the...
...from. When did this happen? This leads me to my next point. Jane's intentions with her plan and what she was trying to accomplish.
Jane never implies that she wanted Kenny dead. Her plan and intentions were simple, the only problem really is that the plan itself wasn't the best one (this is understandable considering she only made it up while walking in the blizzard. In other words, she made the plan under extreme conditions and had 3-5 minutes to think it up). She would hide AJ in a safe place (and if you don't consider it a safe place feel free to object, but please consider the points I made in this thread (p.4), first. She would claim it was an accident and as expected Kenny would attack without a shred of evidence. She would then try to get herself free/dodge his attack and try to calm him down. Then she would tell Kenny and Clem about AJ's whereabouts and plead Clem to leave him. This could've gone this way, but Jane underestimated how angry Kenny would be.
Shifting to the actual scene... Jane's plan seemed to be going as planned. She dodges Kenny's first attack and tries to calm him down and he does appear to calm down. She puts her blade away, and before she knew it, she was being attacked again. This made Jane angry and, after that, everything went downhill. The way you talk about the fight is clearly one sided and biased (no offense, but it is) you claim that Jane started by trying to murder Kenny and completely omit the fact that she put away her blade that shows that she did not intend the fight to go any further.
I admire what you did here. Although not agreeing with it, I acknowledge that this is a deeper analysis than the average Jane hater would do. I congratulate you for that and I ask you to object if you found anything that you disagreed with. It's the first time I actually analyse a character in such depth and write that analysis so please any feedback is appreciated.
Keep these threads coming, please, they're pretty interesting!
Sorry it took so long to reply, mate/love. I came back to gather info for my future plans I kept mentioning and saw your extensive comment. Now, let's see if I can answer your thoughts:
Not actually rereading what I said because I'm lazy(and hungry), I believe the idea was that Troy didn't seem to have done something to her specifically that would cause her to kill him: basically, using Troy to play the numbers game and referencing him as brilliant foreshadowing to her later actions. Also, did he see Carver's corpse? I don't remember him stating that.
I was gonna write up a justification for saying that...but you're right. As I stated not to long after that, Jane was a character I was neutral towards but also saw a lot of things that got me invested in her. I believe I intended to use that as both an example of how untrustworthy she is vs. how morally conflicted she can be.
Yeeeah...hate might've been a strong word. I meant that Jane's survivalist ways isn't too different from Carver's and I speculate he may have inspired some of that thought process. She refered to Sarah, a relatively weakwilled person, as a liability and tried to get Clementine to give up on her.
I am refering to Sarah's "canon" 2nd death, to more specific. While I didn't endorse the 1st death either, that was at least justified as a tense, knee-jerk reaction to a situation that Sarah indirectly started by being there. Next question....
Wow...that's really bumming me out, dude. I know Sarah might not have completely recovered and I always suspected something similar would happen early on(again, future plans), but its like Kenny said,"What if Lee didn't go tearin across half of Georgia and gave up on saving you?"* There's a friggin statue* representing NO ONE GETS LEFT BEHIND, for Pete's sake!
As for the bold segment, I explained that part in another reply somewhere so to save time, I'll just try to repost it here later. In a nutshell: the Situation as a whole was messed up for a multitude of reasons.
Check out Part Two, which spoilers but not really focuses on that Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain. Also, I completely omitted Jane's tendency to back down from doing shady things because this is supposed to be about her shady nature(and because I apparently forgot
).
I've had this conversation waayy too many times(including with myself!) to try to talk about it right now. Because, let's be honest, its a major reason why I did these kind of topics(and joined the site) in the first place. So, I'm gonna have to cop out a bit on this one. Either look throughout the other comments for my winded explainations or wait until I find the time to copy and paste it here. Don't hold your breathe on that last one, though.
Again, you're right. I didn't mean to completely gloss over her positive traits, but here's the thing: It's called being Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Sometimes, selfless actions and good intentions don't completely make up for serious issues with one's personality and behavior. If that was the case, Ben Paul would be heralded as the greatest hero of all time!
I'm pretty sure I addressed that in Episode 5's section but just to reitorate: That would've been fine if she hadn't returned later with that aspect completely forgotten in her rejoining of the group. And that's just sloppy.
I'm sorry, but your (mostly correct) point about morality made me laugh incredibly hard because, yes, the Russians do seem obviously evil. But, to be serious, the idea is that Jane started the conflict in the first place by threatening Arvo. If she had apologized and gave back the gun and he still came after the group, then he would be entirely in the wrong. I went more in depth into this in Part Two, so feel free to give it a read if you want more.
Now that was mostly nitpicking for the sake of comedy. Plus, I was indirectly referring to her track record so far that made me seriously doubt that claim.
Not really sure if you're refering to something I said specifically, but I agree. It's just that Jane's has one/two strike(s) against her due to sloppy storytelling, so I probably forgot to mention several positives throughout. Plus, it was probably day four/five when I got to that part, so eh.
Lol. Admittedly, I practically did the same thing with Jane, so don't feel too ashamed. If anything, feel free to make a seperate comment about your thoughts towards him or any other character. That's what this thread was supposed to be about!
You can look up a playthrough on Youtube but immediately when their near crash stopped their argument. And the death comment was most likely me either getting ahead of myself or considering the fridge logic/horror of leaving him behind in a snowstorm.
I tried to preface the fight itself with a more neutral analysis of the two so as to make it clear that, while I might be more negative towards Jane, I saw both as being complementarilly grey. But, I so much harder on her because she, after all the other shit that made me biased against her, made a relatively self-serving plan that relied on abandoning (and technically endangering) a baby to get a desperate, emotionally unstable man to attack her to convince a similarly jaded girl to abandon him so she would come with her. She may not have intended on anyone getting killed but he/she/they did and, as Kenny sorta points out in his ending, she was supposed to be the rational, coolheaded one and yet she ended up wanting to kill him just as much as he wanted to hurt her. And I added the points about her chasing after him with the knife after the initial editting process.
Keep these threads coming, please, they're pretty interesting!
Thanks! Plus, it was a great way to vent my frustrations with the character and hopefully, encourage others to choose their own personal petpeeve and do the same.
Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Jane
(This is the worst picture I could find, believe or not. And it’s perfect!)
This was an easy one. You knew this was who I was talking about. Now, let me make this clear: Jane is a very emotional, thought provoking, and morally complex character and probably one of the most well written aspects of Season 2. Unfortunately, she also has the honor of being one of the rare characters I legitimate hate. Let me count the ways:
• In Episode 3, she is introduced as a weird, vaguely creepy loner who was found sneaking around Howe’s Hardware. She’s so suspicious, that even the otherwise meek and lighthearted Sarah and Reggie disgustedly identify her as a weirdo. Anyway, she and Mike mostly hang around in the background and do the daily work, until they get attacked by walkers and overhear the Ski Cabin Group’s plans to escape. Jane apparently speaks up for the first time with the Walker Gut Trick as a strategy, which establishes her as being a stoic survivalist, and is most likely backed up by the efforts of Clementine and Lee.(Good one, Lee!) Later, after the death of Carver, she quickly demonstrates how to camouflage oneself against walkers when Troy comes out and is hilariously grossed out by everyone. And, in what is suspicious loose end cutting on the first playthrough and brilliant foreshadowing in hindsight, Jane slyly and somewhat creepily pacifies Troy by reminding him of their agreement and ‘‘relationship,’’ hence the picture used up above. Surprisingly, Troy confirms her comments and is genuinely concerned about where they’re gonna go. Due his ignorance towards the fact that she is creeping up to him over her smell, Jane shoots Troy in the crotch and coldly marches off-screen as his screams make him bait for the walkers, sternly telling everyone to shut the hell up as they move through the herd. So, in summary, Jane was a nebulous minor character who I was neutral towards: her “badass” presentation didn’t really do much to win me over and her overall creepy way of watching people, casual murder of potential, if a bit asshole-victimish, ally, and initial resemblance to a dirty, shaved, and possibly younger Lily made her hard to trust.
• In Amid the Ruins, Jane is the primary focus of the story, eclipsing fellow co-stars Kenny, Rebecca, and especially Sarah, for better or worse. Here, we get a majority of her characterization: Jane is a cold, pragmatic survivalist whose reluctantly self-caused one-bad-day has made her bitter to the notion of being in a group with ‘liabilities’. These traits make her a foil for both Clementine and Carver, and the inverse of Season 1’s Molly. Now, personally, I found myself emotionally invested in her struggles: she was forced to wearily abandon her little sister Jaime after weeks of trying to keep her alive, innocently but insensitively gets on the bad side of Rebecca, has a grey one-sided rivalry with Sarah (more on that later), becomes disgusted with herself when she attempts to steal a medicine stash for Rebecca from a wounded boy named Arvo (more on that later), has sex as a pastime for the almost exclusive benefit of others (I am not a slutshamer, so no love lost there), has numerous callbacks to the day her sister died forced on her, and is constantly conflicted due to feeling connected to Clementine against her better judgment. She was a troubled cynic, embittered by a tough world to accept the Darwinist outlooks of Crawford and Carver and it was [My!]Clementine’s duty to show her value of being a part of a group and prove that there is Staying Life in the World of the Walking Dead. (Yes, its corny, but that’s what this game brings out of you.) But, you can only stay gray for so long before you start doing things that turn you black, so let’s get to the demonizing aspects of Jane’s character and one of the most divisive aspect of the Walking Dead game series in general: the rivalry between Jane and Sarah. Look, I’ll be frank and spare you some of 10-page essay that is my thoughts of Sarah because this is about Jane; one of the reasons it took me nearly 5 days to compile my thoughts and make this post is that I had a hard time not going into rant mode. To sum it up, I think this “rivalry”, as I’ve been calling it, had a lot of potential for character growth for both Jane and Sarah. Jane’s insistence that Sarah’s catatonia over Carlos’s death makes her a liability that should be left behind just like her sister makes her come off as a bit heartless, but it’s not without its valid justifications that teaches a hard to live with lesson; Sarah’s potential resentment towards Jane, and determinately Clementine, for even considering this could help make her character a not so harmless, even much more passive-aggressive one, because yes, as legitimately shocking as it is to imagine/witness, Sarah is a sweet human being who is nevertheless not without her darker side. These facts, combined with the various parallels and divergences among the three girls/young-women, could have made for an intense three-way dispute that not only questions the dichotomy of loyalty vs. survivalism, but also brings the player’s own opinions and interactions with them to the forefront. However, the problem with this rivalry should be obvious: it’s almost completely one-sided on Jane’s side, and as I’ll mention in the next episode, that is an example of a major reason why Jane comes off as so infuriatingly unsympathetic to me. Sarah gets one line that indirectly implies some internal resentment before she dies on Jane’s watch, because of Jane’s actions. Trying to inspire and justify mistreatment on someone you hate because they’re weaker than you, without them actually doing anything to warrant being punished, doesn’t make you a pragmatist, an anti-hero, or even just barely unscrupulous; it makes you a bully. It’s a phenomenon I call “Dead Little Brother’s Bully Syndrome”: Jane, a new grey “useful” character who the game wants me to love in one episode despite her flaws, just got Sarah, an old white (of morality, not race) “liability” character who had 3 episodes to make herself one of my favorites because I found her to be endearing, killed because of selfish negligence, insistent projection, and lack of care for anyone’s safety, and, spoiler warning, this is barely acknowledged as Jane chooses to just walk out on the group. The only completely good/useful thing to come out of this plothole-inducing plothole* is that Luke’s failed-to-payoff hero complex, own survivor’s guilt, and personal frustrations comes to a boiling point and he gets a thorough talking-to from Kenny, of all people**, to get his shit together. By the end of the episode, I was left feeling cheated and bitter. …Let’s just end this.
• In No Turning Back, we get mixed bag of things that simultaneously is what makes Jane such a source of anger for me and ingeniously ties everything together for an intense climax. So, as I may have skimmed over in the previous episode, Jane left the group out of a sense of twisted survival’s guilt due to Sarah’s catatonia and… ‘accident’* reminding her of Jaime’s death and that, sooner or later, everyone’s luck runs out. What I didn’t mention was that episode ends with another screw-up on her part: Arvo, his anemic sister Natasha (see below), and “close-friends”sarcasm mode Buricko and Vitali ambushed the Howe’s Ski Cabin Group looking to get even with her. Postponing my point for a little while longer, this results in Rebecca turning while everyone is distracted, Mike getting shot in the arm, Luke receiving a game breaking injury in the leg (which later gets him killed), Natasha turning and getting put down by Clementine, Arvo getting a motivation to personally hate Clementine and Kenny, Kenny’s instability being brought to the forefront with his vengeful abuse of Arvo, and the yet-to-be-named baby AJ is nearly eaten or shot in the crossfire. So, basically, Jane caused nearly every bad thing that happens in this episode with a single unnecessary action. Duck, Ben, Nick, and Sarah are all in Rotten World (points to those who get that reference)/their nonexistent graves/wherever, hanging their heads in humbled faux jealousy. Oh wait, no they’re not, because, unlike Jane, they’re not FUCKING SOCIOPATHS! …Well, Sarah might be*, but that’s not the point. Did I mention Sarah’s one of my favorite characters in Season 2? *(Video 1) Anyway, after impaling the kookily psychotic Vitali in the back of neck, and getting shaken up by the fact that she “never killed anyone who hadn't hurt her first” coughBullshitcough, she then rejoins the group to try and make things work. With the group’s (especially Luke and determinately Clementine) only complaint being the fact that she left them. …NO! NO! BAD STORY! BAD! She considers leaving Clementine and Rebecca behind, implies that Rebecca should ditch AJ, repeatedly tries to get Clementine to give up on her friends, repeatedly insists that Sarah was gonna get someone killed, provokes Arvo by stealing his gun, distracts Luke with dat punani, puts off trying to help Sarah out of the situation *she caused (though her delivery admittedly got a chuckle), lets Sarah suffer by being a clumsy coward, and walks out on everyone after the fact, and THAT’s the reason you don’t trust her?! Forget about that ineffectual sympathetic villain Arvo (see below); Jane is the Master of the Karma Houdini!!! And, just to add insult to injury, you know that hint of survival’s guilt she had over Sarah’s death? Never brought up again….. So, before I make this the Sarah discussion like I said I wouldn’t (don’t worry sweetie, your time will come*****), let’s get to what this episode does right. While it was cool that Jane showed up just in time to stop Vitali from killing everyone, she loses a few points for getting them in this mess in the first place; on a side note, the implication that she was there for a while but hesitated because he never wronged her personally is fine by me since it implies she actually has standards and something resembling a conscience. Later, after witnessing the evidence that Kenny is becoming psychotic on Arvo (who doesn’t give** her** the stink eye or think to slit her Luke-fucking throat in her sleep, by the way), she once again shows her rational pragmatism by trying to convince Clementine that Kenny is losing it. The reason this is a good thing is because it’s based on truth and facts. For various reasons, Jane is also a foil to Kenny: calm vs. hot-tempered, functional vs. unstable, working alone vs. teamwork, self-righteous vs. acknowledging of own flaws, and manipulative vs. opinionated, both are selfish, but well-meaning hypocrites who are stuck on the losses of the past and are willing do nearly anything to protect the people they consider family. After Clementine wakes up from being nicked by Arvo’s bad aim (I’m sorry, Arvo), Jane starts an argument with Kenny about where they should go and it quickly escalates into a series of admittedly funny zings and then some not so funny personal strikes at each other. While I don’t approve of Jane throwing Kenny’s extremely powerful demons back in his face (seriously, I thought the dude was gonna start cryin’ behind the wheel at one point), they’re both being incredibly petty, inconsiderate, and childish, so Kenny doesn’t get special treatment. [My!]Clementine doesn’t care who started it, she’ll finish it! When Kenny stops the truck to go check for diesel in the rush hour, Jane starts channeling him by getting vindictively angry and tries to convince Clementine to leave him to die. The dude’s first impulse when they nearly crashed was check is to ask her if she’s ok first, before AJ, AJ again, and Clementine, and her first thought is to desire his death?!(Video 2) See, what these scenes actually understand, and take advantage of, is that Jane is actually in the wrong. Earlier, her attempts to get Clementine to abandon her friends was her being overly pragmatic, innocently insensitive, or completely selfish due to her not liking being with them; the story automatically assumed it should portray this as Jane being in the right, even when it wasn’t a display of her grey morality. Here, while I still don’t know if I’d call Kenny a gray character (just more of a very dark shade of white, which might as well be gray at that point), he is a bit hard to deal with at times and is almost ready to lose it, but the characters and story usually remembered to call him out when he’s clearly in the wrong and also make it clear that his heart was usually in the right place, even if his attitude sometimes made this hard to believe; by contrast, Jane’s reasoning is just as much cold pragmatism as it is her selfish desire to be rid of Kenny and keep Clementine for herself. However, I admit that I’m not too different from some of the people who can’t stand Kenny: Jane had done a lot in her meager three episodes to get on my bad side, try my patience, and overall wear out her welcome despite being the rational one, whereas Kenny, despite hanging around longer than he probably should’ve and determinately being even worse than she is, at least had a history of good deeds, sympathy, and loyalty in spite of his tendency to hold a grudge to back him up. So, as a result, she might actually bring up some points that I might agree with, but the dislike is so strong at this point that I might actually disagree out of spite. Yes, even when I agree with her, I don’t wanna fuckin’ agree with her because I hate her! She’s an awful human being! So, as aggressively pragmatic and coldly opinionated as this may sound (guess you can say both Kenny and Jane rubbed off on me), I was only using both of them out of friendship, loyalty, and convenience at that point. My plan was always get to Wellington since it was debatably the best and closest option and, should that not turn out to be a bust necessitating a return to Howe’s Hardware, put Kenny down (out of respect for his help and mercy for his suffering) and due unto Jane the brand of justice that she inherited from Carver. Jane, as you know, had other plans: when things went fubar, Jane escapes from the truck with a walker in pursuit and gets a head start into the dramatically convenient snowstorm. When she finally comes drudging up freezing her huge hooters off, without the baby, she magnificently allows Kenny to draw his own conclusions so that he’ll charge out into the storm and return in vengeful sorrow. Now, we get what is to me a legitimately intense climax: Kenny vs. Jane. This fight takes advantage of the Grey vs. Gray Morality that I expect from a series like the Walking Dead: Jane and Kenny, for better or worse, both have traits that make them likeable as well as unlikeable; neither one is drastically superior to the other in this field—for the most part. I knew Jane still needed to pay for all the pain and suffering she caused for me personally (Get my two favorite characters of this season killed so you can replace them without any consequence? I don’t think so. ), but I also couldn’t let Kenny give in to his despair and just up and kill someone like Lily did; it was a legitimately hard decision. So, I did what I knew and felt was right and eventually shot Kenny; after he finally passed on to be with Katjaa and Duck and maybe also Sarita (in Hell(?))***, with his only tragic regrets being that he’s sorry he screwed things up and that, now that he’s finally dying like he thought he wanted, he’s scared (seriously, that’s somber as heck), the truth came out: Jane staged the whole thing, potentially endangering AJ and Clementine’s health, just to prove a point. Even her apology rings a little hollow when you realize that for all her talk that Kenny went farther than she expected, she sure seemed confident that she was always right and would win their “who kills who” contest during the fight. Her only redeeming quality at this point is that, while she took things way too far for comfort, she really has grown to care about someone else again: she’s addicted to Clementine!(Video 3) I will refuse to lie and say that Kenny was saint, (because with his tyrannical overtones, which isn’t too far away from Carver, fuck no; he seriously was bordering on Nominal Hero territory at times) but at least I knew, not so deep down, that his actions were based on good intentions for the benefit of someone else. But, in the end, he was just too naturally pigheaded, mentally desperate, and emotionally unstable to be considered a safe ally; Jane doesn’t have that excuse and that’s three strikes: she now* officially* has a murder streak, with Jaime, Troy, Sarah, Natasha, Vitali, Luke (debatably), and Kenny’s mostly innocent blood on her hands! This disgusted me so much that after the credits rolled, I saw the alone ending, and looked up the endings online, I replayed that chapter just to make sure this borderline nothing, as Kenny put it, was dead. The fact that she did things in the fight such as angrily chase after him back out into the snow with her knife prepared, blamed him for everything that went wrong (which doesn’t really make as much sense the more I think about it), got even more angry every time she had a chance to break it up, showed sadistic glee while gouging his already crushed eye, and, worst of all, used secrecy and manipulation to get an ally and fellow group member killed only made it that much easier. It still kinda bothers me that I can’t do the deed myself (or that she can’t be the one to kill Kenny, so she can at least say she died a truly successful villain), but hey, just another reason to hate her and look forward to Season 3.
So, in conclusion, Jane, who I hate for mostly legitimate reasons, can get eaten alive by walkers and join them for all I care. And I normally wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy, not even her inspiration, Carver****, but ah well, I can make an exception every once in a while. After all, why should I give her a fourth/fifth/sixth chance when the story is literally bending over backwards for her sake?
References
*Teasing Sequel Hook…?
**No offense/defense to Kenny fans/haters. I’m positively neutral towards the guy.
***No, but seriously, that is a legit question: Are they all in the same place?
****I am so sorry, fans of Carver and Jane; I just don’t like those two. I can just scrape by dealing with Carver; I cannot deal with Jane. I mostly understand why you like them (well, her anyway), but that’s how powerful the hatred is at this point.
*****No offense to Reds, Commies, Russkies, piece of shits, or shitbirds.
Video Jokes
enter link description hereenter link description hereenter link description here
Cool.
Also, No this reply isn't super late, why do you ask?!
Noo not late at all!