SPOILERS EPISODE 5 Anybody else annoyed that *** ***
Anybody else annoyed that you can't redeem Oswald or atleast have an alternate route to the scene?
It just seems like the Harvey scene had a lot of effort put into it... I just went to a file where I was pro Oz (with Bruce atleast) and after trying EVERY possible dialogue tree it always ended with him under the statue. Wish their was some variety. If you take blame he even seems surprised and on the verge to forgive you but just instantly decides to send drones after you instead... did they like originally have an option to talk him down that was removed?
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I mean, it'd have been nice but the scene with Harvey was a matter of months ago and the scene with Oz was literal years ago. It was sweet but it showed how terrible his life has been even back then. I have to think he only saw the tape and realized what Thomas Wayne did to his family between the park meeting and the debate because he's not that good of an actor and he had no reason to warn you. With Harvey you have a strong friendship to fall back on and really only the Selina thing between you. With Oz you've been out of touch for years and your father destroyed his parents. Oz doesn't think Bruce personally screwed him over so Bruce personally will have a much harder time reaching him. Besides, there's a large part of Harvey to appeal to that genuinely doesn't want to hurt anyone. Oz believes what he's doing is for the greater good and trying to get through to that belief is harder.
Yeah, I'm a bit upset about it.
While I'm not the biggest fan of Oz personally, I think those who played Pro-Oz should have gotten the chance to redeem him.
I was furious! Oz has been my favorite character since Episode 1 and didn't change once. I feel like Telltale didn't use him to his full potential. After episode 2 there seemed to be almost no sympathetic lines towards Oz. I felt like no matter how I played Bruce just didn't give a shit about Oz. I was so annoyed when I picked "I'm truly sorry" I intended to actually be sorry but no... Bruce gets all condescending, I was all "Why the fuck are you being a dick!?" And then when the statue falls on Oz there's no sympathetic line, all I wanted was a simple "I'm sorry" or a "I wish things could be different."
And then when talking with Alfred Bruce compares Oz to Thomas Wayne, the biggest piece of shit in the game. Why am I being forced to hate him!?
Why go through the effort of making Oz a sympathetic character only to force me to treat him like shit?
Oh, what did he say if you choose "I'm truly sorry"? I can't find a playthrough where someone said that.
I thought the nicest option once the statue was chosen was "have some dignity" and even that is super jerky because he just had his leg crushed and is getting arrested and his family statue is broken. I know Bruce doesn't have much reason to feel nice about Oz at the time but usually he can manage to be a bit kinder.
"Oh I'm truly sorry Oz, I didn't mean to hurt you that bad, really it was the drugs" he said it in such a mocking tone.
EDIT: Swyngpoynt picked it if you're curious to see for yourself.
Oh my God, I've never heard a less sincere apology in my life. He sounds more sincere when he tells Oz everything was his fault. Oz seems to think he's being pitied instead of mocked, though. I guess I can see how since Oz went out of his way to stir up angry feelings in him and then was involved in the drugging Bruce might not want to listen to Oz blaming him for the outcome Oz wanted but normally he can be a bit more self-flagellating than that!
Those two just need to be locked into a room together to yell at each other for a few hours then they'll walk out best friends again.
I truly feel sorry for those that were hoping to get through to Oz, or at the least, experience a more touching moment with him. It's hard to shake a soldier's convictions, so I'd understand and have no qualms with being incapable of changing his mind. Still, the confrontation was so...cold. I wanted to tell Oz something along the lines of "I'm really sorry, Oz. Not just for what happened to your family, but for everything. I wish it didn't have to come to this". All of the options were really kind of dickish, and I didn't want to just stare aloofly down at him during our last moments together, so I settled for "show some dignity." It came off a little harsher than expected.
I'm not too invested with Oz, and while I don't feel that he necessarily should have been atoned, I do feel that there should have been more variants in dialogue during that final confrontation, and possibly a few determinant lines from Oz that show his sympathetic side. Bruce reacting the way he did in-game did fit, but all of the options seemed to have a similiar opinion of Oz in mind, which I know many Oz fans did not share.
I can almost guarantee that only one of them would walk out alive.
Yeah, all the Harvey codexes seemed torn but the Oz codexes were just about how he doesn't recognize him and he's just a monster and a fanatic. And this started just after the park! Like damn he's talking about revolution and he did go a bit far saving Bruce but that was really premature.
That would also solve that problem. But assuming that Bruce wins that fight he doesn't kill people so they can make it work.
There was no way you could have saved Oz. There was no glimpses or built up to that possibility unlike with Harvey. So no, I'm not annoyed that I couldn't redeem him.
My main issue is that we don't even get to try.
Much more effort was put into the final scenes for Harvey vs Oz. The drones got old after a while and it wasnt as emotionally gripping. While the Harvey part had some of the best dialogue and character development they've ever had in a game.
It would have been pointless either way.
Oswald's behavior was depressing, but it made sense to me. Oz had already been stewing and festering for years about what the Waynes had done to his family, so by the time Bruce tries to reach him, he's little more than a drone himself.
Harvey, on the other hand, had only recently become a monster. There was enough of a residual conscience left for Bruce to make one last connection.
But Bruce doesn't even try to reach him. He just acts like a dick even if you try to be nice.
Not really. Oz is bitter towards Bruce and the first two episodes were a show that he put on to try to gain the trust of Bruce, or should I say sympathy. At the end of the day, he killed several innocent people. He's not a serial killer, true, yet he isn't a good guy at all. Tell Tale didn't make redeemable characters, they made believable and likable characters. You can't ever save Oz or Harvey and they aren't meant to be saved. You feel sorry for them due to you knowing them on a personal level. That complicates their punishment by Batman at times when Bruce knows them.
Not being able to reach him isn't the issue. It's that we don't get the option to try. You can approach the Harvey scene however you want but with Oz I'm not even allowed to care about him. I would've been fine with trying my best to talk him down but ultimately failing. Or a sympathetic line from Oz like "I'm sorry but no, it's too late for that"
Realistically though you wouldn't even try to reason with him once he showed his true colors. Why would Bruce care about him after he sabotaged his character, mocked him, stole his career, killed innocent people, and then broke a picture on purpose that Bruce cared about ? Oz was never meant to be talked down from being a bad person.
Realistically? Realistically you don't send in billionaires to handle hostage negotiations. I'm not here for realism. Anyway if Bruce can still care about Harvey after he sends him to Arkham, blows up a city block, attempt to murder him, attempts to murder his father figure and burn down his home then I like to think it's not too much to ask to at least let me have the option of giving a shit about Oz. Literally I approach my favorite character expecting a great emotional scene with great dialogue options and what I got was:
Option 1: You're a dick.
Option 2: You're a dick.
Option 3: You're a dick.
Option 4: Kick a dick in the head.
Maybe I'm just being salty but I feel like I'm missing out because I like Oz more than I do Harvey. It feels like Telltale forgot that they made some players sympathise with Oz.
Batman was sent to handle the hostage negotiation, not Bruce. Bruce didn't know Oz for many years, he disappeared and totally sabotaged Bruce. Bruce was good friends with Harvey for many years. Drugs that were forced on Harvey was his downfall. He became a bad guy, yet Bruce still tries to help him since he knew him for many years. Oz was a childhood friend of Bruce and yet he didn't know him as an adult for long. He is a tragic character and you can feel pity for him as he is a tragic character, yet he made his choices without drug use. He used an act to gain Bruce's trust at the end of the day. Oz acting mean, no matter if you tried to be nice to him, is the real Oz. He's manipulate and that is his personality trait.
I don't really see that first scene as Oz trying to gain sympathy, seemed more like he wanted to know if he could recognize his old friend. Especially since you can please Oz or completely piss him off. Oz is no manipulator, I dare say he was the manipulated.
EDIT: Also if we're forced to be a dick to Oz because he willingly chose his actions then why are we allowed to sympathise with Vicki?
Oz didn't want sympathy from Bruce. Bruce hasn't seen him for many years and wanted to get to know an old friend again. If you are nice to him, the realistic route, he will be nice to Bruce. I never wronged him as Bruce, yet he walks into Wayne Enterprises and demolishes Bruce's character. What you said, "he wanted to know if he could recognize an old friend" that's manipulation. He wanted to gain the trust of Bruce to ruin him later. You can't say that he was manipulated by Vale, can you ? So he's an innocent man when he took a gun and held hostages. He was doing all of this without wanting money ? Bruce makes note that his payment was from Bruce's estate. He was innocent of trying to kill Batman and a young boy by using a drone. Oz was many things, yet manipulated was not one of them. He was no Robin Hood. The Children of Arkham is seeking revenge on people long dead and they are targeting innocent people in general.
(This is a small aside)
We never figure out Harvey's background. I think in one his backgrounds, his father abused Harvey. I would have loved to have this been in. On the other hand, Oswald Cobblepot lost his parents and was all alone. Vicki Vale (Arkham) as Lady Arkham would have been a bigger point, considering the Vales both abused her AND she lost her real parents.
But to contrast it all, Bruce Wayne lost his parents, but Alfred always took care of him. He could have become bitter like Oz, or bitter AND unstable like Victoria Arkham.
As for why Harvey gets a better finale than Oz, I think it has to do with the game implying that Harvey is not entirely in control. He didn't "choose" to do those horrible things, "Two Face" did. Oz, and even Vicki, know what they are doing. They might not think what they are doing is wrong or don't care, but they chose to do what they did. No one told them it was okay to kill innocent people.
However, when pushed to make the right choices, Harvey did make the right choices - it's just difficult for Harvey to control himself.
No he's not innocent but he was definitely being used. I'm not saying Oz didn't do bad things, I'm saying it's bullshit that I have no choice but to be a dick to him. It's completely unfair that Harvey fans were rewarded for holding out hope and constantly trying to save Harvey and Oz fans got this bullshit scene.
That's why sins of the father is a flawed theory. Bruce could have been a bad person and yet he chose to rise above adversity rather than succumb to it as Vale and Oz did.
I really don't know what you're talking about. If your version of Bruce wants to get through to Harvey, he can get through to Harvey. My Bruce didn't act like a dick at all, although the choice to be one is there.
I think the idea is that Bruce does not get to try very hard to reach Oz even if you wouldn't succeed for the reasons you mentioned. You just find out your father's culpability here and Bruce can express his feelings about this to Harvey but not to Oz himself.
Well, I haven't played the Oz scenario yet, so if that's what AgentZ46 is referring to, he might be right. I never really liked Oz to begin with, so I could just be biased.
When all the choices are 95% sarcasm and you can even go as far to say that Oz's mother "deserved Arkham"
that's just below the belt... given he talks down about your family all the time some might say it's a taste of his own medicine but to me that's just going WAY to far...
I was referring to Oz. I don't like that you can try with Harvey but not Oz.
Absolutely. A major disappointment for me. The thing is that you're only there to distract him, there's no option to care about Oz or even try to talk him down.
I don't think he was ever meant to be sympathetic Agent. He seemed to just be irredeemable. They already had a possibly redeemable villain with Harvey, they couldn't have 2.
One of the biggest themes in batman villains is that they are people who suffered through tragety and now can't recover their lives. Its one of the reasons that batman villain are so loved.
It is, but more importantly, it shows that, as terrible as Bruce's situation was, he had someone that looked out for him - Alfred. Vicky and Oz had no one.
To both of the posters in this sub-thread, I think it's because Oz has implied it was clear that he really wants nothing to do with you since Episode 2. He might have some interest early on, but it became clear by Episode 3 that he has no interest in reconciling.
Even when you say "I have always shown you respect" in Episode 5, he doesn't like it.
If he was never meant to be sympathetic than surely they wouldn't have the tragic backstory of Thomas ruining his life. Maybe he was never meant to be redeemed but we don't even get to try. It's a huge slap in the face to be an Oz fan and play pro Oz since episode 1 and be excited for him every episode only to be forced to be a dick. I've made no secret that after every episode that I wanted and hoped to get to talk to Oz as Bruce and try to get through to him. We got that every episode with Harvey but the game just forced me to think the worst of Oz, every episode I'm sympathetic towards him but every episode Bruce talked about him like he was scum. I don't understand why we get the option to try and get through to Vicki but not Oz.
Another thing I'm really annoyed with, Oswald's leg being broken isn't even determinante anymore, that dick of a statue falls on him. Half of Harvey's body being burned is determinante but Oz always gets his leg broken. I'm gonna sound like a child when I say this but that's just not fair.
[If he was never meant to be sympathetic than surely they wouldn't have the tragic backstory of Thomas ruining his life.]
There is a difference between sympathy and redemption. Yes were supposed to connect to Oswald but he will never fully recover.
Poison Ivy: Pamela Isely , after getting nearly murdered she survivies and is driven insane by neorotoxins. She both unable to recover and unable to feel remorse.
Victor Fries: Loses His wife to illness and goes insane looking for both revenge and a way to heal her. He can's accept he can never heal her again.
Jervis Tech: Cannot accept that his whole life has been horrible and instead choses a Lewis Carol reality. All because nobody could love him.
Every villain has a tragedy. Its what makes them relatable.
Spin it as much as you like but the reality is that Harvey fans got an amazing scene and Oz fans get this crap. Oz was Bruce's best friend and yet we have no choice but to be a dick to him.
Ok ill give you that. It really seems like Harvey fans got the better scene. Meanwhile on Earth 2 you guys get Penguin feeling no remorse and being crazy about how evil Bruce is and Bruce seeing him as just a deranged carcass of his former friend not that Oswald EVER really gave him a good impression. Heck by the way he described his actions he wanted to gut Bruce at the park and only held back to hurt him more later.
Infact while Harvey fans determinantly can give Harvey a chance at redemption, the Oz scene kinda kills all redemption for him. Its almost as if the creators love Penguin so much and have such huge plans for him in future seasons that when they heard that part of the fandom was still hoping for his redemption they disliked the idea so much they decided to kill any chance of it.