Evidence For and Against MI being in Guybrush's Imagination.
I just bought the special edition and when playing it through Guybrush asked "Why do you people speak like that" to which the pirate responded "Play along Guybrish that is how people talked back then."
This sounds like something a young child would ask while in a theme park. Don't you think?
I understand this could just be a 4th wall joke but has anyone else found any evidence in the first 2 games?
This sounds like something a young child would ask while in a theme park. Don't you think?
I understand this could just be a 4th wall joke but has anyone else found any evidence in the first 2 games?
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Don't bring up the "Fake world" thing. Most fans hate it. In fact some of us like to pretend the MI2 ending didn't happen like that.
And Chucky's glowing Voodoo Eyes.
Game, set, match.
Oh, and MI 3.
I also wonder is MI2 was Guybrush telling Elaine (a girl he met at the park) all about his adventures to try and impress her.
Er, that doesn't count. For Tales and future Monkey Island games it does, and that's fine. But in terms of what was intended for Monkey Island 2's story when Monkey Island 2 was being written, it doesn't matter, regardless of whether or not you *like* what they did with it.
This could also be why all the pirates leave. It could be the park's closing time and the pirates could be the other people at the park.
to me, monkey island's greatnes was never that it portrayed any "real" pirate world. it was allways a humorous game and also a game of great ingenuity and imagination. in that light, the whole ending of mi2 fits great in with the general build up to that point. what happens later is a whole different story
Also, I refuse to believe that Ron Gilbert would be such a dickhead that he'd continue lying to us for all these years. I would certainly be insulted if fans didn't believe my own comments/statements on my own game.
-It's a really crappy story device
- Elaine mentions a SPELL
- Le Chuck's eyes
- Ron wanted to make MI3 and if Guybrush was a kid... then it would have been worse than the Phantom Menace with kiddie Anakin
- Ron is an intelligent man. He thought of something better for the series
- MI is full of anachromism and breaking the fourth wall. It's something like comical gags, not really about "it is all a dream!
- Did I mention that it would be crap and disrespectful to MI fans?
- The fact that he started MI3 in a bumper car - so the end wasn't his imagination, it was all a showing of Le Chuck's amazing mind control skillz, which Guybrush escaped by some stroke of piratey luck or Le Chuck's boredom and attempt at sieging Plunder Island.
- Then in the final part of MI3 he again becomes a child in a theme park, echoing MI2, except this time we know this is Le Chuck's curse, because it is cured by a hangover cure, but he is still stuck in the amusement park.
- So at the end of MI2 Le Chuck takes Guybrush to Monkey Island from Dinky Island, likely the same way as Herman went in the other direction, through the tunnel. Notice how the tunnel has the same artwork as the tunnel when you go from Phatt Island to the small island off this one. This is an obvious clue.
- OK, so there are questions over the whereabouts of Dinky Island, but doesn't this make sense? Otherwise at the epilogue to MI3, Guybrush is a boy in a theme park pretending to be a pirate in the caribbean pretending to be a boy in a theme park? Don't think so.
Well people want to know what Gilbert had in mind had he stayed on with the company. MI3 is the story of other developers. Though I will say that the explanations they gave in the third one made an incredible amount of sense, gave the games much more story and meaning, and also branched off into very dark and violent territory. It made so much sense to me, it seemed like it was planned in advance, but it wasn't, just clever writing.
With that being said, I don't understand why we need thread after thread about an ending that will never get light unless Ron comes back. People will keep giving evidence, but the only evidence can be found in the first two games. Nothing will change and it's pointless to keep discussing something that has no more evidence and has not been a part of the Monkey Island series for almost two decades and is not even a part of Tales. I'm very happy with the course the series took.
Why? And how is "That ending doesn't count because...MAGIC!" *not* a bad story device?
Considering that Big Whoop is not completely what it seems to be, and the ending of LeChuck's Revenge never makes it clear what scenes are "real" and which are "not", then that doesn't really count, does it? I can just as easily say "Guybrush doesn't question that he's a kid", "Guybrush recognized LeChuck as his brother", et cetera. Which could be ANYTHING. A hint, a bit of imagination on the part of Guybrush, a fourth-wall breaking nod to the player for a cinematic "The enemy will be back" ending for the sake of the player, where it's possible for Chuckie and Guybrush to slip into that fantasy again. ...How? Believing they're kids at the end of Monkey 2 would mean believing they were kids for the ENTIRE DURATION of both games. A third game would be EXACTLY THE SAME, because they're ALWAYS kids under the "imagination" theory. People make it seem like a third game under this guise would start with a puzzle in which Guybrush must clean his room, and then Chuckie comes and messes it up or something asinine like that. If we say it's in his imagination, then he was a kid when he defeated LeChuck. He was a kid when he talked to the Voodoo Lady. He was a kid when he gathered a crew. He was a kid when he went to Monkey Island. It's not like the third game would then have him taking up a paper route!
Or not. This isn't "evidence" so much as it is a guess, and more one based on your idea that somehow it's a bad story device and the fact that you don't like it. Not if his interview in The Adventurer is to be believed. Why? How?
And I quite like the idea that it's all in his imagination, in fact I really like that idea.
is it? even more crappy than guybrush being simply mindcontrolled and lecuck building an actual amusement park?
that's also awesome...at first the player is told a normal (more or less) pirate story and at the end..it suddenly changes to being simply a boys imagination. until that point it is still quite simple, but then you get another twist..in the end you can't really be sure what is real and what is illusion and then the game ends. that was the best game ending at that time. it left me completly startled. depends on how it would have been done. the beginning of curse was great in a way. you didn't know what had happend before, but he back in the pirate world, but there was still evidence from the amusement park. so again, you didn't know what was real and what not. i would have left it that way and played with it a bit more. you could play normally in the pirate world, but still don't know, if it is real or an illusion. being intelligent is no guarantee that he had already planned a complete script for the next game. i assume, that he had some rough ideas on how to continue the plot, should another monkey island be made...not more. the mi2 ending would have worked as am ending to the series..at least for me. disrespectful? if you see it that way, then the explanation given in mi3 could be also considered disrespectful. it was also quite simple...
...anyway, it's all a matter of taste and personal preference, i guess. the ending of mi2 gave you two possible options: that everything so far was just a dream, imagination or illusion or that the pirate setting is in fact real and guybrush was somehow cursed or mind controlled to believe he was just a little kid at an amusement park and lechuck is his brother. we don't know what is real. it would have probably been better without a sequel though, 'cause in a sequel you had to choose one of these options. both aren't so great on their own. the whole confusion part is what made the mi2 ending interesting for me.
I definitely wouldn't mind if that was it. There's a certain quaintness and warmth to the idea that Guybrush is sharing in the fantasy with us. It explains his naive but mischievous nature, and it just gives another dimension to everything you do, retroactively adding depth and a "wink wink" feeling to everything you encounter in the first two games.
Uhm, I never said the MI2 ending never happened, what the fuck are you on about? I was just saying that those two things alone speak against the whole imagination theory, but all you do is shoe-horn them into YOUR opinion. What I don't understand are people that can't see things from different perspectives - those are the worst kind of people.
I'm not the one ignoring clues. I pay attention to ALL the clues, evalute them and make up an opinion. I don't just ignore the clues just so it can fit into the theory more. Also, I wouldn't mind if it was all in his imagination. I just don't believe it's that simple.
And I LOVE the MI2 ending. But even back then, it gave me a feeling that there would be a third game that continues the story. In fact, I never doubted it once.
To sum up:
What I find amusing is that there's always a chance that there was no deep explanation in the first place.
You never know.
Personally I'm not a big fan of the idea that the first two games were all an imagination. To me it means that playing the first two games was a complete waste of time. It's like those stories you get where it ends that "Then he woke up. It was all a dream" or the time was turned back to before it all happened. Consequently negating the existence of the story. Anyone can imagine they're a pirate. =/ That said that's only my view. Everyone has different tastes and so they might think that's a really good way for the story to go.
With that I prefer the theory that LeChuck got a hold of the Big Whoop and used it to send him to another dimension as a child where there is no chance of him ever doing anything piratey again. Making it quite a big punishment for Guybrush as he's wanted to be a Pirate since the beginning. As backed up by Elaine saying "I hope LeChuck hasn't put a curse on Guybrush" and the Red Eyed Chuckie at the end. Which is how they went with CoMI. Although I do admit I was saddened that they didn't include a chapter at the beginning or atleast a cutscene of him escaping the Big Whoop.
Guybrush's identity is much more malleable than one could think: when we find him on the shores of Mêlée Island, "armed with nothing more than a goofy name and the overpowering urge to become a swashbuckling pirate", we don't know anything about his past; we could even say it doesn't really matter: those two attributes are all we need to know. We don't question his origins (his existence?), we just start playing along with him.
When I first saw Guybrush's parents, during the amusing yet uncanny Skeleton Dance sequence (hey, another W. Disney reference!), the thing which disturbed me the most was the fact that it suddendly gave the main character a depth I hadn't asked for. Guybrush was much more than a simple avatar I could hide myself behind: he had a life of his own. The sequence also hinted at another unanswered question: are Guybrush's parents dead? What if it was all a "spell" of some sort? How could we forget using his father's skull as an ingredient for LeChuck's voodoo doll? What was happening there?
The endless explanation at the end of Curse bluntly misses this point, bringing back the more reassuring past-free Guybrush we can happily fiddle with now: full of personality but lacking a real identity (and therefore "interpretable" by any player). EfMI developers Clark & Stemmle, much more aware in this sense, emphasized this absence in an eerie way: at Planet Threepwood, his very identity being objected, Guybrush is asked a question he just can't answer to: "what are your parents' names?"
(Guybrush's identity is one of the main themes of this classic, shamefully underrated fourth episode: just think about Pegnose Pete, or the Myst of Times)
If The Secret of Monkey Island was indeed born from the imagination of a young Guybrush Threepwood, I still think it was done in a clever way.
All the subtle hints of reality creeping into Guybrush's day dream is a cool touch. Like the secret is right in front of you the whole time and you're not even aware of it.
Not saying it's necessarily much better as I think everyone wants Monkey Island to be real...
But it's still better than a story with no plans or hints in that regard which then just slaps you in the face with a "it was all a dream" at the end.
Iv allways wondered if he was abandoned or if his parents died also if Lechuck realy is his brother it was never adressed after 2 allmost like it never happened Guybrush aslo has trouble remembering what happened when he found big whoop tbh I think he has lots of memory laps he forgets the voodoo lady twise he forgot what Lechucks forms where in TMI he even forgot he was looking for big whoop in 2 when he was destracted by the largo embargo
I think the REAL Secret of Monkey Island, is that Guybrush is adopted and lives almost constantly in a fantasy world to escape the crushing pain of having dead parents and a family you don't love.
Let's not even go there...
My favourite one is that sign at the alley reading "Employees Only" which happens to open in Monkey 2....isn't it a door reserved for technical staff? If it is not, it really seems to be....
We'll never know for sure I'm afraid....
I think this happened in a Tom Strong comic once.
And the whole "Come on Guybrush that's how they talked in the past, play along" is probably because pirates aren't what they used to be anymore, but they still try to keep their traditions.
For me, Guybrush is kinda like one of the characters that's loveable because we don't know their exact origins, like The Tick or The Iron Giant.
Mulholland Dr.
something like this just came to my mind as well. he definitely seems to have a problem with his parents. either he lost them at a young age, maybe they died or abandoned him, or he left his parents behind somehow. so we could either have the whole boy's fantasy setting or maybe something deeper. as zomantic and the article he linked to had elaborated, there are indeed several occasions were a modern world interferes with the monkey island world and to me it always felt like they were intentional and not just some lame fourth wall break joke. so, was everything just a boy's dream and he goes home with his parents in the end? that would indeed be kinda silly and also, why would he have his dead parents in his fantasy several times, if everything is fine...and why would his real life brother be able to shoot blue sparks from his eyes. the point is, that everything isn't real including the amusement park.
did anyone see the movie "identity"...kinda like this. maybe guybrush was as an amusement park with his parents when he was little, but now he grew up and is a complete nutjob. case solved.
when monkey island was originally planned the concept wasn't for a comedy game, right? correct me if i am wrong, i don't want to look it up now. so, with this in mind, couldn't the real secret indeed be more sinister than we would think it is? check out the mi2 cover, that's also not really funny...it's quite dark.
I never said that I assume that MI2 never happened. In fact I like its ending. But it is its solution in the follow up from Ron Gilbert that never happened. So we had Curse which I think is not the exact explanation is a pretty close one.
It is considered an stardard in the entertainment industry be it movies, books and hopefully videogames too never to end some story with the "all is a dream" device. It makes fans feel cheated like if all the adventures and journey the protagonist went by were good for nothing. I guess Ron was pretty aware of that "rule".
I think it's not clear after Guybrush fell, which scenes are real and which not. He realises something is hapenning. Even asks something like "what's going on here?". But then the effect of the spell is probably too strong and he believes he is a kid (which he is not)
Or a nod to Thriller
He doesn't act like a kid in the first game, but like an inexperienced teenager and wannabe pirate
Most people don't like it
I don't believe it. Ron knows how to keep a secret. Even if he needs to lie! Evil Ron...
Would you like that when your life is about to end that someone wakes you up and says you were in the Matrix and all your life was a lie? It's something like that. Saying that Monkey Island 1 and 2 were a lie and had no reason to be. That the love of Guybrush for Elaine is a lie. That he becoming a pirate was a lie. Would you like that?
I don't think Ron meant to turn Monkey Island 1 and 2 into 'it was all a dream.' I think he rather took the Calvin and Hobbes route. Do you feel cheated because the tiger is actually a stuffed toy?
Good question. Are you sure Hobbes isn't in fact possesed by a spirit or something? Well, I think it is a bit different having one character being product of imagination instead of a whole story.
Haha that's true - it seems a little morbid to go off fantasising about finding your parents' lifeless bodies and picking up your father's skull as another nifty inventory item.
Also, I don't really find it too weird for a young child to have morbid fantasies, in contrast to what some people have said here. If Guybrush really did find his way into the theme park's unwelcoming and dark service tunnels, with his older brother hot on the trail, why shouldn't he have been able to imagine the skeletons of his parents in the ward?
I admit that this theory is an easy way out, since you could make almost any discrepancy fit. But the metal railings below ground on Dinky, and the underground tunnels... they are obviously in a theme park. I'm more or less sure that's what Gilbert had in mind. And his presumably last part of the trilogy was going to take place with this obvious to the player, with Guybrush struggling to stay in his enjoyable fantasy. My, would I like to play that game. Regardless of how much I enjoyed Curse (and Escape, right up to the part with the monkey head).
Don't search deeper than you have to - even Tolkien never gave much trouble thinking about stuff like second meaning of his works - he just told his story and did it well. It were the fans, who started writing their college diplomas based on study of his literature.
the theory isn't about "it all being a dream", it's more or less about two brothers playing pirates in an amusement park (with their friend elaine, perhaps). am I not right? it's actually very well orchestrated, all the way from the beginning of mi1, through the second act building up to the imaginary climax in "the secret revealed or your money back". all those little hints giving away that this isn't quite the real pirate world it looks like. there are no pirates anymore (not in that way;)), there were no soda machines back then, just play along! it's a game, in more than one sense..
I totally agree with the David Lynch and Calvin & Hobbes references btw..