One thing to complain about in Chapter 2
Okay, so I'm near the end of it, but something in it really gets me. Don't get me wrong, everything else is great. 
I find it really annoying that some of the puzzles aren't straight forward enough. For instance,
End objective needs to be clear
It's OK if the objective changes in mid-game, but at the beginning the player should have a clear vision as to what he or she is trying to accomplish. Nothing is more frustrating than wandering around wondering what you should be doing and if what you have been doing is going to get you anywhere. Situations where not knowing what's going on can be fun and an integral part of the game, but this is rare and difficult to pull off.
Sub-goals need to be obvious
Most good adventure games are broken up into many sub-goals. Letting the player know at least the first sub-goal is essential in hooking them. If the main goal is to rescue the prince, and the player is trapped on an island at the beginning of the game, have another character in the story tell them the first step: get off the island. This is just good storytelling. Ben Kenobi pretty much laid out Luke's whole journey in the first twenty minutes of Star Wars. This provided a way for the audience to follow the progress of the main character. For someone not used to the repetitive head-banging of adventure games, this simple clue can mean the difference between finishing the game and giving up after the first hour. It's very easy when designing to become blind to what the player doesn't know about your story.
Puzzles should advance the story
There is nothing more frustrating than solving pointless puzzle after pointless puzzle. Each puzzle solved should bring the player closer to understanding the story and game. It should be somewhat clear how solving this puzzle brings the player closer to the immediate goal. What a waste of time and energy for the designer and player if all the puzzle does is slow the progress of the game.
Arbitrary puzzles
Puzzles and their solutions need to make sense. They don?t have to be obvious, just make sense. The best reaction after solving a tough puzzle should be, "Of course, why didn't I think of that sooner!?" The worst, and most often heard after being told the solution is, "I never would have gotten that!" If the solution can only be reached by trial and error or plain luck, it's a bad puzzle.
I find it really annoying that some of the puzzles aren't straight forward enough. For instance,
when you have to check out a book from the library, and there's no evidence a library exists, you can't see it from the harbor, and you usually don't think about taking the bridge that leads to it.
There's also the part
where you have to find a freaking bucket that is almost unnoticeable.
Plus, the hint system can be really misleading at times and doesn't make it clear just what you need to do. About the puzzles, though, let me quote Ron Gilbert himself in his article, "Why Adventure Games Suck And What We Can Do About It"End objective needs to be clear
It's OK if the objective changes in mid-game, but at the beginning the player should have a clear vision as to what he or she is trying to accomplish. Nothing is more frustrating than wandering around wondering what you should be doing and if what you have been doing is going to get you anywhere. Situations where not knowing what's going on can be fun and an integral part of the game, but this is rare and difficult to pull off.
Sub-goals need to be obvious
Most good adventure games are broken up into many sub-goals. Letting the player know at least the first sub-goal is essential in hooking them. If the main goal is to rescue the prince, and the player is trapped on an island at the beginning of the game, have another character in the story tell them the first step: get off the island. This is just good storytelling. Ben Kenobi pretty much laid out Luke's whole journey in the first twenty minutes of Star Wars. This provided a way for the audience to follow the progress of the main character. For someone not used to the repetitive head-banging of adventure games, this simple clue can mean the difference between finishing the game and giving up after the first hour. It's very easy when designing to become blind to what the player doesn't know about your story.
Puzzles should advance the story
There is nothing more frustrating than solving pointless puzzle after pointless puzzle. Each puzzle solved should bring the player closer to understanding the story and game. It should be somewhat clear how solving this puzzle brings the player closer to the immediate goal. What a waste of time and energy for the designer and player if all the puzzle does is slow the progress of the game.
Arbitrary puzzles
Puzzles and their solutions need to make sense. They don?t have to be obvious, just make sense. The best reaction after solving a tough puzzle should be, "Of course, why didn't I think of that sooner!?" The worst, and most often heard after being told the solution is, "I never would have gotten that!" If the solution can only be reached by trial and error or plain luck, it's a bad puzzle.
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Comments
The bucket however was a pain in the ass. It blends in really well with the background and there's no other indication that it's there. I had to look it up here.
That's a strange example. Why would you not walk around and explore the environment? That's a basic principle in all Adventure games.
In my perception you get told pretty much everything you need to do (almost too much). Working out the details is the puzzle.
I didnt have a problem with any of those.
So yeah, didn't realise that'd be an issue - but if it's just because it blends in well with the background so people miss it then fair enough.
Also, I think most of the things you listed were accomplished pretty well in this game. There were one or two arbitrary puzzles though.
I don't think it's fair to complain about that. It's your fault for not going everywhere (just like it's my fault for missing the bucket every time... Although it seems I really wasn't alone lol)
Haha, exact same here. It's always the simplest puzzles that stump me the longest. I guess I tend to overthink things. But I noticed the bucket and library instantly.
Expecting players to have some curiosity for the environment and patiently explore areas more than once is not bad game design, it's really just part of what they're all about. The important thing is that the areas are inviting and interesting and that you want to explore them, and I think ToMI accomplishes this (Strong Bad, on the other hand, really did not. The license was too focused on characters and lacked any sense of a developed world).
For me it was right there in open space, not even behind something, but in front of the Merfolk you should speak with.
I think it just looks like it's part of the background or something. I don't know how I missed it, either, but I did.
Maybe they have "bad" displays or dark display settings. I've seen displays which make dark shades hard to tell apart.
EDIT: I just played to that part again and i see no way how it could be missed
I thought it was in a dark spot somewhere, but it's perfectly illuminated
Also, to the original poster... its obvious you are an adventure veteran, but it honestly sounds like you have never played ANY adventure game before! (epically a money island title). Not having any clue what to do is part of the genre's mystique... Finding creative solutions to problems with no clear solution (and at times... not even seeing that a particular problem can be solved).
Also, all the puzzles do make sense... not till after you solve some of them, but they still make sense.
Using that criteria, this was one of their best titles to date.
Anyways, My real reason for Posting... my 2 cents here is to raise a gripe that no one else ever seems to mention...
What I HATE... is when a puzzle is solved by normal behavior, by talking, or examining things before you even knew that it was something to be solved (OR when that behavior makes a puzzle solution more painfully obvious than it should have been)
A perfect example is in Ch.1 when
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i noticed that too, but thought it was supposed to be that way. when i first entered the scene, the bucket wasn't usable, but later when i needed it, it was.
usually you can get items before you need them. the puzzle here was more that you need to talk to him about the
saw that as well, but it didn't do anything, expect looking strange.
I already had everything I needed to advance, but I kept wondering around looking for items I'd forgot to pick up instead of focusing on solving the puzzles.
The only thing that I can complain, is the cinematic with the doctor with the really-low resolution background (playing in 1900x1200 it was a punch in an eye).:eek:
Esch Level should hint at an aspect that the previous level does not (and have them get stronger, obviously)
- level one should only hint at what you should be solving... but give no real hints as to what to do... (maybe have guybrush go "hmm..." when near something he can solve or pick up...)
- Level two should state what you should be working on... but word it in a way that might get you on the right track (for example, the
- Level three should indicate what particular items may be usefull, and get more blunt with what you should be doing... (for the above puzzle, something like
- Level 4 should should have a pop up tag that appears when you have been messing with a puzzle for too long... clicking it, will give a series of progressive hints leading (like the ones I made famous back in the day) to the solution (the last of them being the actual step by step solution with its own "are you sure?" question when you click it)
That is what the game SHOULD have... and to be quite honest, the game needs an expert hint writer on it (even when the system works, ugh, the hints are horrible... either too much, or not enough, they never hit the nail on the head at all! (Sorry darrin
edit: thats a really great idea, dangerzone
I wouldn't say EVER. But I have played all the Sam and Max games, all the MI games, Full Throttle, both Longest Journeys, DoTT, Out of Order, etc, etc, etc. I like adventure I just need more help sometimes than most other people.
Tricky, because I really hate situations that are almost impossible to solve without a guide.
Ok mr criticism, that's all well and good.
But does TOMI break any of those guidelines?
No.
Your rant isn't very relevant.
And those going on about hints, it's normal to get stuck for five seconds. I finished TOMI without hints, and I really had no trouble with it. It was a great difficulty, and it really didn't need hints. So asking for more hints seems a bit stupid.
I realized I had to
There is another one
Everything you've posted here from Ron Gilbert's article concerning adventure games is perfectly true, but I honestly didn't feel ToMI violated any of them...
1) The bucket was an issue? Some people mentioned there was a glitch, so if that's the case I get your frustration. My game didn't glitch at that point, and I picked up the bucket the moment I first visited the shop screen.
I don't want to make any assumptions about your adventure gaming experience, but it's pretty much a rule that you check *everything* you can see on a screen the moment you first visit it, taking your sweet time in doing so. That way, aside from picking up everything you can/need, the moment the screen changes when you revisit it you'll be able to notice immediately.
2) The library. Yet another rule, not just in adventure games but all games period. When you get to a new area, you explore every inch of it to gather as many clues as possible before moving on. The road to the library was pretty obvious.
3) The objectives. Again, I don't see how those were unclear. If anything, they were perfectly clear (these advance as the story goes along, so they may contain additional spoilers if you haven't finished the chapter yet):
- At the end of the first chapter, you're out looking for Coronado who was obsessed with the legend of La Esponja Grande. Makes sense you'd need someone like him since the sponge is your only cure.
You're also looking for Elaine since you were separated at the start of the game.
- You see Elaine and LeChuck together through your spyglass, and hey, that's a whole new problem on its own, but I don't think it'll be resolved soon
- Before you can react, Morgan boards your ship and threatens to kill you. You're not given any objectives here, but what would YOU do if an assassin tried to kill you? You obviously need to find a way to defeat her and save your life. You're on a moving ship, so you have to work with what's in your immediate environment.
- With Morgan gone, you get to Spinner Cay. You're still looking for Coronado and Elaine, but the location was your last clue, so look around, see if anyone heard/saw anything concerning either missing person.
- After exploring, you find out that no-one knows where Coronado is now, but you know where he lived. Also, after witnessing the meeting between Elaine, the Merleader and McGillycutty, you know about the artifacts. Elaine makes your goals pretty clear: find the artifacts. She also gives you hints about all of them (the pirates have one, LeChuck is looking for the other and there's a hint for the third on Roe Island).
- After you complete this part, you have to escape the blockade. Again, Elaine explains everything to you. Find LeChuck and distract the pirates with a cannon located on the beach of Spoon Isle.
- Once that is done, you meet up with Elaine and LeChuck and decide to go your separate ways. They go help the monkeys, and you're supposed to find the sponge with the aid of the sea creatures.
- You're on your way to do so, when Morgan attacks again, but before anything happens, the manatee swallows you whole.
End chapter.
As for the puzzles that actually emerge when you try to accomplish your objectives, I had no problems figuring out what to do. That's not to say the solution to the puzzle always came immediately, but I knew what needed to be done, just took time to figure out how to do it.
The golden turtle is stuck? You need to pry it out. The pirates are burying one of the artifacts? Well, you have to somehow mark the chest so you'll be able to find it afterwards. McGillycutty keeps aiming for your mast? Try to make your mast stronger, simple wood is clearly not working.
Straightforward stuff.
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Puzzles like that are good, I enjoy a good pixelhunt, as long as it's not too bad.
Agree to disagree?