Bad graphics?

edited August 2009 in Tales of Monkey Island
I've seen a few people complain about the graphics of Tales of Monkey Island. Now I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about them? Is it because the game is in 3D instead of 2D, or is it something else?

Personally, I think TMI looks great, but if you have a different opinion, I won't bite or anything, I'm just curious about the reason. ;)

Comments

  • edited August 2009
    I think ToMI is a nice step up from the graphics in Sam & Max. I like the look in general.

    I think a lot of people maybe got comfortable with Gurbrush as a clean-cut guy with a big nose and the new interpretation feels alien.
  • edited August 2009
    repeated models for characters has been stated.. i personally think you should NOT be able to skip lines in dialog until you have listened to them all the way through once. This would raise game play time almost 20-30 min

    graphics wise.. ep1 lagged out badly for me esp at the start with the movements

    to me the graphics are just.. telltale graphics.. and thats how they do it.. i do expect other character models soon, but the backgrounds and animations are fine!
  • edited August 2009
    Even when the characters polycounts are not as high as in todays standards and textures are also pretty blurry. But they made this like that so everyone could play this game(also developing an advanced graphic engine is expensive)

    But other than these tehnical things. It still looks great, the art and design is great.
  • edited August 2009
    The graphics aren't *bad*, the engine is reasonable, and the style is nice. It's just the textures and low poly counts that could use some upping.
  • edited August 2009
    of course the graphics aren't state-of-the-art, but it's solid quality. also, in episode two they did some nice looking stuff with the lighting and depth of field.
    the reuse of models is a bit annoying, but not "bad graphics". there were a few "cracks" in the first episode, but it seems to be mostly fixed in spinner cay..
  • edited August 2009
    The cracks are sometimes there for me, and not at other times. It's odd.
  • edited August 2009
    "Is it because the game is in 3D instead of 2D, or is it something else?" - IMO this is the cause not the problem itself!

    I decent 2D sprite driven engine IMO is better than a 3D engine that will run on most peoples PC and won't cost a stupid amount of time and money to create.

    The 2D engine I'm talking about would contain sudo 3D processing, such as gradient maps over the main characters to then apply colour and light intensity filters on dependent on light source and direction to then change/tinge the colour brightness of the sprites pixels. Also include a long shadow, where appropriate. Have smooth animations for when the character changes direction.

    This would then make it a lot easier to create fixed animation scenes (as mentioned by StarEye in tread Would you want next-gen graphics?) where you enter the kitchen window on Scabb Island in MI2. This has been done in MI5 chapter 1 such as when you are trying to board the Screaming Narwhal. With a 2D engine these would be a lot easier to create and hence could fit a lot more of them in.

    This would allow almost everyone to play the game at 1600x1200, and have the screen fully detailed.

    In an ideal world I would like to see 3D with very detailed textures and very high poly-count and be able to run on an Intel 486 with 4Mb of RAM, with a budget of $5k for graphics, that isn't going to happen, hence why IMO 2D is still a better option.

    Next reason I'm not a fan of the graphics (which is in part due to the above mentioned). Is in MI1 and MI2 LeChuck was a scary ghost pirate, in the opening scene of MI5 Chap1 he just isn't that scary. There is very little atmosphere in the opening scene (and there on in), the opening scene based on the script should have a lot of atmosphere.

    I'm not sure why they started it at this point, rather than from the point where Guybrush first started making the sword. I'm also not sure why there wasn't a re-cap of story up to now, which would of helped bring new people into the game that weren't around computers 20 years ago or just weren't born/old enough.

    Also there is a clear lack of grime and grog stains, which is partly due to the lack of detail!
  • edited August 2009
    Kaldire wrote: »
    i personally think you should NOT be able to skip lines in dialog until you have listened to them all the way through once. This would raise game play time almost 20-30 min
    Alternately, you could just not skip lines (unless you're doing that accidentally, in which case, click less). Why disable an optional feature? :p

    Anyway, the game looks great on my widescreen monitor, so I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Sure, it's not Crysis, but it's one of the better looking adventure games on the market right now. The art style, colours and character designs look great.
  • edited August 2009
    Gary90 wrote: »
    This would then make it a lot easier to create fixed animation scenes (as mentioned by StarEye in tread Would you want next-gen graphics?) where you enter the kitchen window on Scabb Island in MI2. This has been done in MI5 chapter 1 such as when you are trying to board the Screaming Narwhal. With a 2D engine these would be a lot easier to create and hence could fit a lot more of them in.

    I used to be (and still am to an extent) a big advocate of 2D graphics, but I don't think this is strictly true.

    A 2D animation usually requires every frame of a character to be drawn from scratch, but with a 3D animation, the model's already there, it's more or less a case of moving the skeleton rig around (I'm over-simplifying the process a bit here, but the fact remains).
  • edited August 2009
    Personally, I have a thing against 3D in general. I dislike the (over)stretched textures (i.e. in the close up of the vaycalian barbecue, when Guybrush is melting down the pyrite parrot) plus I also had the issues of viewing cracks (visible a lot on the sandy ground, i.e. in the jungle). Sometimes it looks too abstract for my taste, too much like "as long as they can still make out what it is there's no need for adding time-consuming details".

    Basically, the same goes for the characters (I really envy Elaine for her, uh, robust hairstyle). Although here, a great job is done with the facial expressions and the way they make their eyes look. I nearly felt off my chair laughing when Guybrush gets the U-Tube and hypercritically looks up at the glassblower. A-mazing! So that kinda makes up for the 3D-look of the characters.

    I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an adventure game. I reckon some people don't give a damn about the graphics as long as the gameplay is good. On the other hand, there must be a reason why this genre was originally called "graphic adventures"...
  • edited August 2009
    Hi Badwolf, I understand what your saying about re-drawing every frame, but most of the time this would be limited to a fairly small area of the screen.

    Also to create the 2D version you can use (and probably would use) the same 3D skeleton idea to get the basics down, then manually add the detail and smooth over the 3D model. I.e. I'm not saying that each frame or more correctly sprite and background would have to be hand drawn in 2D from scratch.
    More of a high polygon count character is created in 3D then rendered into 2D and touched up. When working in 3D it can be hard to get non-bone part of the characters to look correct in every possible position you might want it in. Also facial expression can be very tricky also.

    I hope my augment makes slightly more sense now. The 2D aspect allows small amount of diversity, which is self contained over a fixed number of frames, rather than having to have the 3D model that little bit more realistic.

    For example in MI2 (again) when Guybrush goes grave robbing and he lifts up the bone and his trousers fall down. To do that all using 3D models of his trousers is a big ask. In 2D we are probably looking at about 150 frames (5 seconds @30fps) tops. The 3D model lifts the bone above his head, then looks either way, bends over and moves his hands as if his pulling his trousers up. Then the 2D graphics guy fills in the trousers.


    Basically the 2D part fills in the bits that are hard to pull off well in a 3D modelling environment! Also things like, sea spray, spit, fire, etc.
  • edited August 2009
    If this wasn't Monkey Island, the grahpics for me would be fine (not the best, but they don't have to be for an adventure game).

    It's the storyline/gameplay that matters, and the night I downloaded chapter 1, would I of kept playing until I had completed it that night, and ended up going to bed 2 hours later than I normally would, if it was rubbish? Would I of download chapter 2 the day it came out (also would I of looked for it at 1am GMT and 6am GMT the day of the release), then played it solidly until it was compete, if it was rubbish? (incase you are wondering the answer to the above questions is no!)

    There are a couple of bits that I don't like about the story, purely because they don't fit in to MY idea of Monkey Island (namely the first 2), SPOILER-- namely the cause of the winds and secondly the idea of Merfolk--- END of SPOILER. If it was a brand new game, I would love it to bits and not have any problem with the story line at all.

    All in all, it is an OK Monkey Island, as an adventure game it is great!
  • edited August 2009
    Gary, I'm an animator (in training). What you're suggesting is a little like cell shading with a 2d overlay, and would be very complicated to get working in practice. Badwolf is right, 3d animation is just less time consuming. I'd LOVE for the series to go 2d again, however it is a more expensive option.
  • edited August 2009
    I really enjoy the visual style, personally. I'm not a big fan of the Sam&Max direction, which doesn't emote anywhere near enough for my tastes. The art direction is spot on, and the only thing i can possibly complain about is repeated model archetypes and that the water doesn't look particularly wet (more like a sheet of transparent plastic in a lot of cases). Some particles would've been nice. But nitpickery! It looks proper Monkey Island and i love it
  • edited August 2009
    they actually look pretty damn good on my tv at 1080p resolution, nice smooth and colourfull i dont have any problems with the graphical style.
    The only thing that annoyes me a bit is the repeated character models, im sure theres some kind of engine, memory restriction or whatever but im sure they could have gotten round it 1 way or another.
  • edited August 2009
    The graphics sucks big time. They at least could pull some more of the characters and all the background items... Everything looks like made from plastic... no textures no nothing.. I just bought this game to support the series... give money to the producers for actualy doind smth with the series but I dont get joy of playing the game at all. Well lets hope that they will improve graphics and make after season 1 a full game... Take care.
  • edited August 2009
    wanted31 wrote: »
    Well lets hope that they will improve graphics and make after season 1 a full game... Take care.

    Telltale makes episodic games. They won't be making a "full" game.
  • edited August 2009
    One thing which I really don't understand is how people complain about this. Models are reused to conserve resources and time, Telltale's turnaround period is far shorter than that of pretty much every other game. The entirety of Tales will be completed and released in 9 short months, where as most other games have a turnaround of 18 months minimum (usually 2 or more years). It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

    The reason why 2D is not going to be used is due to the fact that they would want one person to do each background to keep it consistent. which takes a considerable amount of time, which with Telltale's release schedule is not particularly useful.

    And done.
  • edited August 2009
    Complains complains and more complains.. well better that then keep quiet.
    The audio is great !
    I love the menu and the grassy jungle thing when You press ESC and then again - I can do that for at least a few times... more then a few but it put a smile on my face.. u u u
    ... At least but not at last I said smth good about it e e e ?

    I know that they do episodic games ! But they will...
  • edited August 2009
    wanted31 wrote: »
    I know that they do episodic games ! But they will...


    Will what?

    And its complaints by the way.
  • edited August 2009
    Really? I thought the graphics looked alot better in EP2 than in EP1.
  • edited August 2009
    the character models up close look very bad, but from far it's quite ok. Like people mentioned it's the lack of textures or anything that would make them less look like LEGO pieces. The reuse of models just seems lazy. Even on this forum you see how some of the fans create amazing art in just a relative short time. I'm trying not to complain though since this is the first telltale game I actually really like. It's just a shame they always have to go low budget.
  • edited August 2009
    For me it's not the fact that the models are low-poly or the textures are low res, I actually quite like low-poly aesthetics and I feel they sometimes enhance the atmosphere of the game (Unreal, Morrowind, Silent Hill). It's the actual 3d models. Guybrush looks bizarre, and the monkeys' heads are... just not monkey-head shaped. Morgan is the only character that I liked the model for, and human LeChuck is pretty good too. In the beginning of Ep2, notice how close the illustration on the final card is to the 3d scene - while it looks great in 2D, I don't feel like the character designs translated well to 3D.

    The animation of the characters has hugely improved since the first few Sam and Max games which I played - I do hate that one animation most characters do while talking though, where they shake their heads rapidly.

    The graphics don't ruin it for me, and they're not terrible - but it's impossible to avoid comparing them to the amazing realistic pixel art in 1 and 2 (when talking to the pirates in the scumm bar, for example) and the painted backgrounds of 3.
  • edited August 2009
    Note Escape from Monkey Island, then answer.
  • edited August 2009
    I think the EMI character models are okay, and most of the backgrounds are downright good. That's right, I said it, I liked some things about EMI :| The camera angles on the EMI backgrounds are more interesting than in Tales.
  • edited August 2009
    I think the graphics are very nice. I prefer Sam and Max's graphics but there's certainly nothing wrong with this! My only problem, as with everyone, is the reusing of character models between episodes. It was understandable in one episode because they needed to reduce the file size, but to bring them back as two different pirates in episode 2 seems unnecessary. It would have been funny if they WERE the same pirates but had disguised themselves and they'd somehow alluded to that in the dialogue.
  • edited August 2009
    I think the graphics are very nice. I prefer Sam and Max's graphics but there's certainly nothing wrong with this! My only problem, as with everyone, is the reusing of character models between episodes. It was understandable in one episode because they needed to reduce the file size, but to bring them back as two different pirates in episode 2 seems unnecessary. It would have been funny if they WERE the same pirates but had disguised themselves and they'd somehow alluded to that in the dialogue.

    Could have worked similar to Bosco's disguises in Sam and Max Season One.
  • edited August 2009
    Jace Taran wrote: »
    Could have worked similar to Bosco's disguises in Sam and Max Season One.

    I miss Bosco's disguises
  • edited August 2009
    I find the graphics/style, excellent, although I was quite annoyed with the reused models in Episode 1, they changed quite nicely in Episode 2, but still, reusing models is okay but there comes a point when there shouldn't be, for two or more matters, I, like everyone, else are confused by people getting POed due to the style, not being 2D, and the graphics being horribly ugly.

    And the next thing after models, is how they make the enviorment/background sound, like it's the worst graphics in the world, are they Videlexrix? Are they trapped in the 90s? Do they think we're spacemen? All these answers will never be answered, only we can enjoy the lovely game graphics, Telltale has given us.
  • edited August 2009
    I like the graphics. They're bright and colourful, with a nice level of detail. To me the games feel like a cross between CMI and MI2. Nobody wants to buy a 2D game anymore, unless it's a platformer. I highly doubt that Telltale would go through the hassle of making a fully 2D game only to have a small group of rabid supporters (and no-one else) buy it... Then complain bitterly.

    As for the reused models... Well, sometimes it can be a bit annoying, but if that's all you can focus on then you have to be pretty obsessed with finding faults in these games. I didn't even notice them really in the second episode.
  • edited August 2009
    My only problem, as with everyone, is the reusing of character models between episodes. It was understandable in one episode because they needed to reduce the file size, but to bring them back as two different pirates in episode 2 seems unnecessary.
    I agree with you, I didn't mind it that much in ep1 but they shouldn't have used the same models in ep2.

    As for the graphics I have no problem with it being 3D, but the over-compressed textures makes it look worse than it is.
  • edited August 2009
    I personally think, that Tales of Monkey Island characters have wonderful facial expressions (particullary Guybrush). But, EfMI characters, IMO, have wonderful animated bodies. I mean, I still can remember how Otis and Carla look at each other during first dialouge with them (when asking about Meathook, then how Otis thinks "that's a good question", their face doesn't change a bit, technicalities of course, but just the way it's done, how they move they're heads, hands), how the Harbor Mistress walks (and especially how Guybrush points at every ship till he gets to the... pink one), and I can actually go on and on. Animation was really expressive in EfMI. I cannot say the same thing about ToMI. Now, if ToMI facial expressions were to be combined with the quality of EfMI animation (and both of these factors CAN be improved, still), then... then we would get something awesome :)
  • edited August 2009
    I think that the quality of ToMI's graphics is perfectly fine barring a few low resolution textures and visible texture/model cracks which are the product of developing for the Wii and having a fast episodic development turnaround.

    I'm not convinced by the aesthetic style that Telltale has chosen to adopt for the game though. It's too much "Escape from Monkey Island" and not enough "Monkey Island 2". I wouldn't use the word sterile to describe it, but it's not far off from appearing sterile. In going for caricature, the artists have actually lost something of the "character", if that makes any sense.

    However, the only things that I'd change would be to return the characters to less cartoony, caricature-like proportions, make the environmental lighting more dramatic, and add an extra layer of grit and ugliness to the pirates and their world. The game needs to be more "atmospheric" and "spooky" in the dark places and have more fairground "warmth" in the bright places.

    I love the facial expressions, environmental animations, and the cinematic camera angles of TOMI though. They undeniably bring something to the series that it has never had before.
  • edited August 2009
    I wish the art style were a bit more in line with 1-3, but what's there is good. Wish the non-Guybrush character models were more detailed/expressive, but I get that when you're pushing out episodes with such a quick turnaround time it'd be hard to squeeze in much more.
  • edited August 2009
    We are never going back to 2D animation in interactive commercial games.
    It's simple. Because you can reuse so much, you can make the same game much cheaper in 3D.

    Take Guybrush's hand for example. To change it every episode is like one hour work. In 2D you will have work for weeks, because you needs to revise every frame of every animation of Guybrush.
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