Awful Writing (Why, just why)
I have seen small to large misses in the decision trees before amongst Telltale games (such as seeing Tripp walking around in the background after already being dead due to a decision or being blamed for a choice I made the opposite of later in another episode), but the writing in the latest episode of Batman (part 3) is simply unforgivable. I am such a fan of Telltale storytelling, especially their stronger character development on Walking Dead than the actual show, but enough is enough.
I have lost all sense of immersion into the Bruce Wayne character. John Doe (at this point in the story at least) has no idea Bruce Wayne is Batman and treats the two completely differently. He promises both Bruce Wayne and Batman to get them the laptop, but ultimately gives it to Batman; a move that would be a betrayal of Bruce Wayne, HOWEVER, during Bruce's "interrogation" the laptop is brought up directly as the subject and John both admits to stealing it and was evident he did as he flashed it at Wayne when he did. I have NO options to accuse John of a) not delivering it to me b) stealing it and mentioning that to Quinzel. I have no options to accuse him as the obvious mole since, as far as John is concerned, he took it for Bruce and never delivered it. I get that Telltale wants to put me on rails as the story unfolds, but this is just sloppy.
Furthermore, when John stole it and Bruce immediately left to change into Batman, why isn't Bruce trying to meet with John as himself, directly in the subway. As far as John is concerned, him and Bruce had no arrangement to go to a bar afterwards for the exchange (that was with Batman); he must know Bruce will notice this, but it is never brought up. I get that there was a scene where Bruce disappears to a "business meeting" as soon as the bat signal is on in the sky, which would make anyone (including John) suspicious, but he is still currently playing dumb then.
Furthermore, Bruce Wayne's secret identity is completely meaningless now. After the meeting with Waller and Gordon in Wayne Tower (the arrest), Waller explicitly tells Wayne, "Right now, as yourself. We don't want them to know Batman is on their tail." That'd be fine, except Agent Avesta is standing right goddamn there. Bruce makes no mention of it, just oh it's cool, more people know, whatever. If it's this meaningless, why do I never have an option to just tell Jim that Bruce is Batman, cause who cares now, almost everyone knows at this point. Batman's identity is one of the most important elements of the character and it's being thrown around willy nilly; it completely took the emotion out of revealing it to Fox's daughter.
Poor show guys, poor show.
I don't even care how it ends anymore, I hope all characters die and there is no more sequels. This needs to go away.
Comments
Alright let's start with Avesta. She's the one who actually figured out Bruce is Batman and she's the one who told Waller. You can learn this from Waller in episode 2 with the choice "Does she know who I am?"
Regarding the laptop, Bruce could have simply planned to pick up the laptop later from John, obviously it would be kind of a suicide idea to try to exchange it in their frickin' hideaway, but picking it up as Batman would drive away any suspicions of him. Keep in mind that after the laptop is stolen Harley keeps a close eye on any Bruce/John conversation and you don't get any further opportunity to speak with him as Bruce till the end of the episode. As for mentioning John's involvement with the theft to Harley (first why would you do that you rat) you can ask her if she suspects John but she's firmly convinced of his loyalty and likely wouldn't have believed you a single word. In addition, Bruce got the laptop, so for his own sake asking John why he didn't give it to him would be a stupid idea. Or maybe John's playing you, and actually knows you're Batman which would mean he upheld his promise.
I know some games of Telltale's have some writing issues that could discourage someone from playing them, but I cannot see this one as that case. The pros simply heavily outweigh any cons. I hope this game gets more seasons, it's one of Telltale's best works and deserves it.
I couldn't disagree more HexIgon.
As I mentioned above, there is no "meta" in storytelling. My version of the game (Batman/Bruce) did NOT ask Waller if Avesta knows or not, so my version of Bruce is not aware of this, and per his character SHOULD be pissed when he finds out so casually in Wayne Tower. You can't treat the characters in a meta environment where they went through every dialogue choice at every interval.
Fine, John shouldn't pass it to me right there in the hideout, but I (as Bruce) should still be interested in getting the damn thing, to which the character shows complete disinterest, since he already has it as Batman. If you're playing a double agent, you have to act as if you're not two people, and Bruce (again by the comics) is supposed to be very perceptive of such things. Quinzel separated you two, fine, but now you're together again in the "interrogation", this is the perfect time to ask John, "Hey, what'd you do with the laptop, Harley wants it real bad and I already somehow found the Black Site without it, aren't you more suspicious of me, we should probably talk about this except we won't because I am on rails for a big YOU KNEW ALL ALONG reveal in episode 4." Pure sloppiness.
Well just because you didn't ask doesn't mean it didn't happen. I guess in your and mine cases (I didn't ask because I knew the answer already) Bruce either connects the dots later or just assumes Avesta is Waller's most trusted hand. It's not really such an immersion breaking issue.
And again, Bruce already got the laptop, why would he make it harder for himself and John when he got what he wanted? John might not know of that but that isn't really Bruce's concern. Best thing he can do is nod and go along with it since in that moment he really doesn't have time to ask pointless questions when he's got about ten seconds before he has to name the mole, which in one case blows his cover completely making the whole thing irrelevant.
Bruce can bring up John as being the culprit and Harley immediately brushes it off. I think it was more of a thing where Bruce realized it was pointless to pin it on John because Harley would never believe it. Without even realizing he was doing it John had actually managed to manipulate Harley. Because he's so obsessed with her she can't fathom him disobeying her. Bruce also knows the timeline of there being a mole doesn't help his or Selina's situation. Which only adds to Harley's disbelief. It wasn't bad writing or lazy writing it was just fast and I guess not many people are going to catch the fact the Harley is constantly saying things like, 'puddin' incapable of betraying me. He's loyal to a fault.'
Now that's a bit too harsh, don't you think? Not all these plot threads destroy the game, because some you kinda missed.
I'm sorry that you didn't experience the line where it's mentioned that Avesta was the one who found it out first, but that's how it is in the story. Even if that "wasn't true" in your story, since Waller is so keen on talking about it with Avesta around, then it would be natural to assume that Avesta has been briefed about it too. Plus, it's not yours to give away now. Waller knows it and will use it as leverage when it suits her. She has more power than Bruce at the moment.
I have to agree with you about the story being on rails, maybe even more so than usual. I slipped Bane the counteragent and left him behind weakened and surrounded by agents, yet he showed up just like the other scenarios and doesn't even mention being drugged at all. Sloppy and lazy to provide different paths but then neglect to follow through on them. Selling out John should have been a hidden third option if actually did steal the laptop in your playthrough.
I can agree about the counter agent. That was strange that it wasn't even mentioned. I wonder if its affects are more permanent? Its got to come up in episode 4 or 5. If it doesn't than its pretty pointless and shouldn't have even been given as an option. But I'd say that is the only issue I had with this episode.
The counter agent not having an effect on Bane’s escape is enough to guarantee the whole story is on rails even more so than other TT games?
Why is the counter agent so important for you to make that claim?
Because it was a way of weakening Bane. It should have been mentioned and wasn't. It's like they completely forgot it was even an option. He even injects it and specifically looks at Bruce while howling 'What, what is this?!' He gets back and its like Bruce never even slipped it to him. And what's frustrating is they made Bane a very observant guy in episode 3 yet he doesn't confront Bruce, the newcomer, about it?
I mean that should have been the tip-off of there being a mole vs Harley saying 'did anyone notice we were expected?' They were doing great with your decisions mattering and out of the blue drop the ball on something that has entirely different scenes to get to. Literally there is now no point to contacting Waller when your wounded, what she gives you should have been more helpful than what Gordon gives you and turns out it wasn't. It was basically poison and it got brushed off.
Because small things like that can blow your cover the fastest. Bruce was very insistent that John steal the laptop for him and after Batman gets the laptop Bruce suddenly isn't interested anymore? Doesn't that sound suspicious? Plus the whole laptop thing should make Bruce wary of John. He promised to give the laptop to Bruce yet he gave it to Batman instead. That seems like betrayal. Unless John knows that Bruce is Batman (which I'm not sure anymore if he does or not with so many mixed signals we got not only in S2 but also in S1). Neverless even the posibility that John knows should put Bruce on guard. Yet he's still as friendly to John as before. It's just strange or badly written.
Well I'm surprised Bruce hasn't already blown his cover, honestly. Like when Harley tells him to go to Riddler's hideout Bruce actually says, "I might need help, that place is full of traps." I had to face palm and was like 'omg Bruce, think! How the hell would you know that?!'
I'm pretty sure he said it's probably full of death traps, and it's a pretty fair to assume there will be traps where the Riddler is involved.
He might of I must have missed the 'probably.' I don't got the best memory. Regardless I think the story is good and writing is good with the exception of the counter agent. I hope they fix that in the next episode. Like explain why it had no impact and was brushed off. That was extremely disappointing.
Maybe the Counter-Agent completely takes Venom out of his system so his body doesn't even respond well to a new injection of the real stuff. Otherwise slipping him the Counter-Agent in episode 2 is completely pointless.
Doe Bruce still have the Counter Agent if he doesn't risk slipping it onto Bane? Another thing. Bane might still have it on him if you slipped it on him and he made it back instead of Harley
Yes well John would never blow his cover even if Bruce slipped up.
The counteragent was shunned to the darkest depths of the eternal Hell for forgotten Telltale plotlines.
It wasn't mentioned in my game where I actually used it and left him behind. It's gone.
Y’know, it peeves me a bit when people accuse writers of “bad writing” - like any of us could do any better? At all?
Let TellTale do their jobs - we have two more episodes, people!
I like that idea that would definitely fix them not bringing it up. I also know you can look at Bane's supply and wonder if there was a better way of slipping it to him. Maybe it was meant to be mixed in with his stuff at some point for a better effect.
Exactly. We can think of things that we would enjoy, but can we really put those ideas to good use, and ensure it all links up with whatever the season has planned? No!
We have to understand that Telltale are under time constraints. Given that they split up their team, they have limited manpower. They have deadlines, they have suffered through layoffs during this episode wait, and they have a plan for what's to come. Sacrifices need to be made along the line to give us exactly the story that we're promised.
EXACTLY!!!
Thank you, another excellent point.
Ok I think you are missing some of the plot. I believe that John Doe does know that Bruce Wayne is Batman because there are so many scenes that show that he knows. In Arkham Asylum he says he notices something dark within Bruce Wayne. Also when he shakes his hand on top of GCPD he tells Batman he has a strong grip the same thing that Harley tells Bruce if she grabs your hand in the elevator if I am remembering that scene correctly. Also it is from the comic universe but Joker knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman but he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne, he wants to break Batman. Also the retrieving the laptop was John trying to help Bruce but he did not give John a reason to give him the laptop just that he needed it and Batman later tells him to get a friend to help which was Bruce. Do you think that Bruce would betray himself by letting John give it to Bruce rather than Batman? If Bruce had the laptop where would he had gone to use it? Batman on the other hand doesn't have to worry about blowing his cover if he uses the laptop.
if you pull him away from Tiffany at the funeral he also tells Bruce "that's quite a grip you've got there, Bruce!" So that could be another sign he knows, or it could just be something he likes to say. Personally I hope he doesn't know Bruce is Batman. It wouldn't make much sense with his character this season. Also, I think John just sees the darkness inside Bruce, not necessarily that he's Batman. John's think is that Bruce has "hidden depths" of darkness. If he knows Bruce is Batman the darkness isn't exactly hidden.
Yes! That's exactly what he means! Based on what we've seen so far, everything points to him not knowing yet. If he did know, he's sure playing the long con. But there has been nothing so far to indicate that he knows, or what he plans to do with it. No reason for him to know who we are.
In his first real encounter with Batman on top of the GCPD, alone, he doesn't say "Hey Bruce!" He introduces himself and is extremely stoked to meet the Batman. He mentions Bruce in passing when Batman says: "you'll need a friend". You'd think he'd have mentioned it already or hinted at it to Bruce in private, but no. He treats Batman and Bruce as two separate people. John doesn't know!
I hope he doesn't know, but that he can put it together. I think maybe he has his suspicions and kind of tries to look for similarities. I think it'd be cool if there was a chance of him figuring it out but, depending on your choices, he doesn't. For instance I grabbed John at the funeral and Harley and got the 'You got a strong grip there.' I did not shake Johns hand as batman however. I've also been very buddy, buddy with John as Bruce and not so much as batman. I was very distance as batman and didn't teach him the batarang whereas my Bruce would have.