You know, I personally don't see any potential "romance" or friendship with John as something "happy". I think it will only end in tragedy.
Me neither, and that's one of the many reasons why I support it. It's very likely to go terribly wrong for the both of them, and I like tragedies.
I completely agree with your perception of Joker's feelings for Batman and how dangerous it would be in this context as well.
I wasn't entirely sure a John romance would necessarily make the plot any better... I was like ''it could if they pulled it well'', and I defended the idea several times in here, but it's only after playing episode 4 I am fairly convinced it would be just a cherry on top of this season.
This is gripping and exciting.
You know, I personally don't see any potential "romance" or friendship with John as something "happy". I think it will only end in tragedy. … moreBut you got good points.
Any close relationship with Joker has written danger all over it. That's what I think makes it interesting and unique for so many people. John has (like many other incarnations of the character) a very unhealthy obssession with Bruce, and it dosen't matter if it is as his nemesis or friend, it will always put any person close to Bruce in peril. And I think adding a romantic option will only make that danger even worse.
If you reject John during the game he explodes in your face, and thats only by being friends. Now, imagining him in actual romantic entanglement with Bruce is beyond mortal. Some people says it detracts the plot, I say it will only add more to it. The heart of this Season is your relationship with Joker. Of course making John "good" or not at the end, is the writers decision.
Yes, I'm actually just a little bumped that all my past decisions on John during the Fun House scene didn't get mentioned at all. That's why I think some people didn't like the "hug" thing. I think that particular affection should only be available to the people that "flirted" with John, because a potential romance with his character is not for everyone. It shouldn't have looked as desperate as it did if you are choosing to befriend him only.
You know, I personally don't see any potential "romance" or friendship with John as something "happy". I think it will only end in tragedy.
… more
Me neither, and that's one of the many reasons why I support it. It's very likely to go terribly wrong for the both of them, and I like tragedies.
I completely agree with your perception of Joker's feelings for Batman and how dangerous it would be in this context as well.
I wasn't entirely sure a John romance would necessarily make the plot any better... I was like ''it could if they pulled it well'', and I defended the idea several times in here, but it's only after playing episode 4 I am fairly convinced it would be just a cherry on top of this season.
This is gripping and exciting.
Did people dislike the hug ? I have a hard time understanding why, it's not like you can control what John does or how he feels. In the span of a few minutes he got from ''that's it, Bruce is gonna ditch me'' to '' he believes me despite all the evidences against me''... of course he would hug him.
Bruce didn't ( and couldn't ) hug him back by default and seemed rather uncomfortable/taken aback... you even have the choice to pull away and say you'd still bring him in.
What is there to be upset about ? It's Bruce we are playing after all.
I think it would make sense for another character to have the hug be optional, but It just seem to make sense to me that child-like John hugs him regardless of whether or not Bruce has been flirting with him... This hug itself didn't really seem romantic compared to many other things John does by default. We are talking about a guy who says doing dangerous things with Bruce gives him butterfly in his stomach, says Bruce being violent got his heart racing, describes love as a dizziness and then proceeds to say Bruce gave him a feeling of indigestion, and he is always a ''please'' away from betraying Harley for ''his'' Batman.
The hug in itself ? He just looked like a child overwhelmed.
Friends hug, and he considers you a friend at this point.
I am pretty sure that if John has any feeling that is more than friendship he had it in every game, he just may not realise it and the realization would depend on how the player's treated him.
Is there something specific they didn't like about the hug ? Something I may have missed out ?
Yes, I'm actually just a little bumped that all my past decisions on John during the Fun House scene didn't get mentioned at all. That's why… more I think some people didn't like the "hug" thing. I think that particular affection should only be available to the people that "flirted" with John, because a potential romance with his character is not for everyone. It shouldn't have looked as desperate as it did if you are choosing to befriend him only.
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let her be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
Honestly the relationship between John and Bruce is a friendship. And he's not very loyal I have to agree with @Kaelthas and @Gartives because even if you are able to convince John and Tiffany to be quiet John still tells Harley about her, giving Harley leverage over Bruce.
He also does lie about the agents. Its foolish to believe it was self-defense and if you do you'd probably make for a bad detective. First his story is 'I just grabbed something and started swinging' that indicates he used a blunt object, but if you look all of the agents have been shot. The one up against the wall that John was talking to has a bullet wound the one Bruce examines has a bullet wound in the back. And as far as I know the only weapons lying around are guns. Perhaps I'm wrong if I am, my bad, but that is what I've seen from that scene and there seems to be nothing there to validate what John claims. He even changes the story once Bruce mentions there was a gun in play.
Also I think a romance would cheapen their friendship and be extremely weird. John is way unstable, Bruce knows it and romancing him would feel wrong on so many levels. You also don't need to make-out with someone to truly care for them. Bruce can love John but a brotherly love by far exceeds a romance at this point.
Who are you gonna care more for? The little brother that's in need or a fling you know will never last?
And nothing about the hug they share is even remotely sexual. Nothing about it suggests they should bang each other. It literally makes me think of a kid brother hugging his big bro who feels awkward about hugs.
I agree with you completly exept John's lie.
Bruce doesn't believe him anyway about how agents were killed, the option to beilieve him is about his self-defence version. He did shot them with the gun and Bruce knows it anyway, it's obvious. But John's first intention was to lie to Bruce about not killing them at all. In the end he just lied about killing them with the melee. He knows Batman hates killing and he just killed 3 men. He panics, just look at his monologue. Trying to make some clumsy excuses.
Let's imagine for one second he DID kill them in self-defence, how does it look to Batman in John's eyes anyway? Former insane asylym patient covered in blood and surrounded by corpses, known to be unstable and with a criminal record. Not a very nice picture.
The way I see what happened, they attacked him, he attacked them. When they tried to surrender, he shot woman in the back. Survival instinct. Still self-defence. Cool? Not cool. But doesn't mean he lied. He's known to telling half-truths. Should he be punished? Depends on what really happened.
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let h… moreer be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
Honestly the relationship between John and Bruce is a friendship. And he's not very loyal I have to agree with @Kaelthas and @Gartives because even if you are able to convince John and Tiffany to be quiet John still tells Harley about her, giving Harley leverage over Bruce.
He also does lie about the agents. Its foolish to believe it was self-defense and if you do you'd probably make for a bad detective. First his story is 'I just grabbed something and started swinging' that indicates he used a blunt object, but if you look all of the agents have been shot. The one up against the wall that John was talking to has a bullet wound the one Bruce examines has a bullet wound in the back. And as far as I know … [view original content]
Well, I suppose anything is possible in regards. But my guess is they either shot at Harley and he wanted to protect her and he snapped or he lost control because that was his and Harley's special place and they were intruding on it, therefore ruining his 'sanctuary.'
I'm really hoping telltale elaborates on it. Maybe John slips up about it while he's venting about the agency to Bruce, trying to convince Bruce to let him help. And you found out from that if it was self-defense or not. I'm 100% positive it wasn't self-defense but I can still be wrong because I'm not the writers.
I agree with you completly exept John's lie.
Bruce doesn't believe him anyway about how agents were killed, the option to beilieve him is a… morebout his self-defence version. He did shot them with the gun and Bruce knows it anyway, it's obvious. But John's first intention was to lie to Bruce about not killing them at all. In the end he just lied about killing them with the melee. He knows Batman hates killing and he just killed 3 men. He panics, just look at his monologue. Trying to make some clumsy excuses.
Let's imagine for one second he DID kill them in self-defence, how does it look to Batman in John's eyes anyway? Former insane asylym patient covered in blood and surrounded by corpses, known to be unstable and with a criminal record. Not a very nice picture.
The way I see what happened, they attacked him, he attacked them. When they tried to surrender, he shot woman in the back. Survival instinct. Still self-defence. Cool? Not cool. But d… [view original content]
Well, I suppose anything is possible in regards. But my guess is they either shot at Harley and he wanted to protect her and he snapped or h… moree lost control because that was his and Harley's special place and they were intruding on it, therefore ruining his 'sanctuary.'
I'm really hoping telltale elaborates on it. Maybe John slips up about it while he's venting about the agency to Bruce, trying to convince Bruce to let him help. And you found out from that if it was self-defense or not. I'm 100% positive it wasn't self-defense but I can still be wrong because I'm not the writers.
Some people think it was fan service for the BatJoke fans. And well, I think it was a little desperate if you pay attention to the subtext. He actually hugs you more "friendly" if you go and say you belive him at the start of the Fun House scene.
That hug, as I said in one post, has many hidden emotions on it. And "HEY DANGER" is one of them . That's why I compliment Telltale eairler on my first post. Have you ever seen Joker hugging Batman like that before?
And GamerLady, I respect your opinons, but I disagree completely. I understand you are among the people who would totally oppose romancing Joker, and thats ok. That's why the OP and many others believe that the posibility should be totally optional and carefully made.
There is a whole crowd of people that were cheering for a Harley romantic option in the forums. So, glamoring the idea of romancing a crazy socipath like Harley dosen't makes it more wierd as romancing Batman's mortal nemesis.
There is actually lots of story potential with an infatuated Joker being your mortal enemy or your ally. It means you would need to be even more careful of being on his good side.
Also, as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts, this projection of sex in both characters is unnecessary. They don't even need to kiss. Their connection is beyond sexuality, or love. The reason I think many people find their "love-hate" intriguing, is that the connection that Batman and Joker share seems to be beyond any normal human relationship.
To put it simply, if Batman suddenly drinked some sort of magic potion that transformed him into a woman, Joker wouldn't give a damn, his intense feelings or obssession wouldn't change. I think the balant flirting he makes in the comics would be the same, if not, even more.
In almost any media were they are potrayed together there is this traditional "existential connection" on them that hints on the "romance" they share. Is it real romance?. No, they are comicbook characters.
Romancing Joker or even befriend him in this game, however you want to put it, is wrong. Yet, people play friends with him, because is something that is rearely seen, besides is fantasy. Romacing Joker, is no different. Is actually more intriguing. And totally dangerous.
Agreed. It shouldn't be imposed to anybody.
Did people dislike the hug ? I have a hard time understanding why, it's not like you can cont… morerol what John does or how he feels. In the span of a few minutes he got from ''that's it, Bruce is gonna ditch me'' to '' he believes me despite all the evidences against me''... of course he would hug him.
Bruce didn't ( and couldn't ) hug him back by default and seemed rather uncomfortable/taken aback... you even have the choice to pull away and say you'd still bring him in.
What is there to be upset about ? It's Bruce we are playing after all.
I think it would make sense for another character to have the hug be optional, but It just seem to make sense to me that child-like John hugs him regardless of whether or not Bruce has been flirting with him... This hug itself didn't really seem romantic compared to many other things John does by default. We are talking about a guy who says doing dangerous … [view original content]
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let her be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
meh... I am not saying he doesn't love her, so maybe someone else will be better able to answer that one. The whole season has been him ''''struggling''''' to choose between the two; and by ''struggling'' , I mean John choosing Bruce every single fucking time except if you fuck up big time ( at the cafe, and basically once the stitch is broken... )
And even after the cafe thing he acts angry for two sec, but doesn't tell Harley you stole the laptop, and instead go back to other you to help you steal it from her... well...
He was fine sending her in Arkham even before episode 4 just so he could impress Batman. He may not want to get her hurt, but then I advize... not helping Batman or Bruce AT ALL... but nope, couldn't help it. We would not have been able to stop the pact members in time without his help since episode 1, he just kept helping you... knowingly. The guy is pretty consistant with his priorities.
Honestly the relationship between John and Bruce is a friendship. And he's not very loyal I have to agree with @Kaelthas and @Gartives because even if you are able to convince John and Tiffany to be quiet John still tells Harley about her, giving Harley leverage over Bruce.
And why would he do such a thing ?
If I was John and I knew Batman had the tendency to put his life in danger to help people, I wouldn't count on the sole menace of hurting him for him to give up on Cats. Bringing up Tiffany is ensuring that Bruce could actually put the blame on Cats rather than die himself. And if there's one thing I am pretty convinced by now, is that for whichever reason you want, John really doesn't want Bruce to die.
John is being manipulative though, and it might not be considered loyal even if its to save Bruce life...depends on perspective.
He also does lie about the agents. Its foolish to believe it was self-defense and if you do you'd probably make for a bad detective. First his story is 'I just grabbed something and started swinging' that indicates he used a blunt object, but if you look all of the agents have been shot. The one up against the wall that John was talking to has a bullet wound the one Bruce examines has a bullet wound in the back. And as far as I know the only weapons lying around are guns. Perhaps I'm wrong if I am, my bad, but that is what I've seen from that scene and there seems to be nothing there to validate what John claims. He even changes the story once Bruce mentions there was a gun in play.
As I said before, I don't believe he killed in self defense, but I believe he believes he did. Maybe someone who believes he killed inself defense would be better at answering you. His monologue strongly indicates he doesn't have clear memories of what happened, he is all like ''it was self defense ! It was self defense...Wasn't it ?'' . He says what he vaguely remembers so Bruce doesn't hate him, it's kind of a natural thing to do in fact. He is merely convincing himself that the few memories of ''self defense'' he had are indeed correct.
I believe him when he says something dark took a hold of him and he doesn't remember.
But he could also be lying, didn't he say he had some ''things'' to do before getting Harley. I just don't really understand the point of doing it though.. I know doing things for fun is not beneath J but it's jeopardizing the work of 5 episode just so he could kill a few agents ? meh. I don't believe that.
Split personnality is the most likely theory, even as he talks in this scene and the one in Harley's office it feels like he is switching between two sides of himself ( genuine and manipulative ).
Also I think a romance would cheapen their friendship and be extremely weird. John is way unstable, Bruce knows it and romancing him would feel wrong on so many levels. You also don't need to make-out with someone to truly care for them. Bruce can love John but a brotherly love by far exceeds a romance at this point.
I think brotherly love can be of lesser, stronger, and of equivalent intensity as romance depending on who we are talking about.
However, John's romantic feelings will lead the player to reconsider his interactions with Harley and Bruce. John has a peculiar perception of relationship and It's something to reflect on. It's because there's a discrepancy between what he says and what he shows that it's interesting, there would be contradictory informations, and the player would be forced to think instead of just accepting what he says as truth. What I adore about John is the fact I need to to look twice at every single thing he does. If I take things at face value, I'd see John's smile as he has his back turned to Bruce, hear his tone as it goes from anxious to mocking and I would just ditch him from there. But since It's not the first episode I am playing I can look back and ask myself ''would it make sense for him to lie ?'' '' what did he say/do before that could shade light to what happened there ?'' John is such a brillant character for that.
Him being in love with Bruce rather than Harley just make sense, and it still does after Bruce literally ''breaks his heart'' and he goes on a rampage and becomes his mortal enemy, finally getting Harley's attention.
Its interesting that you say Brotherly love is more important than romantic love in your opinion, but proceeds to say that it would be weird for Bruce to fall in love with John since he is unstable while it's fine for him to consider him a little brother whom he cares about a lot. Isn't there some kind of paradox in there ? Since Brotherly love is more important than romantic love to you, shouldn't it be weirder for Bruce to have all these intense brotherly feelings for an unstable man than it would be if he had romantic ones ?
Personnaly, I always fond the concept of Bruce being very close to someone who's not a criminal/who's completely sane, to be weirder than it is when he is with a criminal ( look at him with Cats, Harvey and John ). It's just whe he evolves you know...it just happens. I feel like you overestimate Bruce's sanity level at this point of the serie. Him starting something with John wouldn't even phase me at this point, he has a ''kind of crazy'' remember ? He already cares about John, he is already in deep. I find Bruce to be the weirdest character alongside John, in fact. I think the fact Bruce takes himself seriously makes him weirder, so when he smiles while taking selfies with the pact, pokes riddler corpes, goes on speeches about manipulation, can be needlessly brutal with people and get deeper and deeper into isolation, I don't even know what to say.
We already had this discussion tho, and I think I already said I don't think Bruce likes John ''like that'' even though the option would be welcomed. It would definitely be an interesting turn of event.
I am convinced it has tons of potential but It's not me dude... it's episode 4's fault.
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let h… moreer be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
Honestly the relationship between John and Bruce is a friendship. And he's not very loyal I have to agree with @Kaelthas and @Gartives because even if you are able to convince John and Tiffany to be quiet John still tells Harley about her, giving Harley leverage over Bruce.
He also does lie about the agents. Its foolish to believe it was self-defense and if you do you'd probably make for a bad detective. First his story is 'I just grabbed something and started swinging' that indicates he used a blunt object, but if you look all of the agents have been shot. The one up against the wall that John was talking to has a bullet wound the one Bruce examines has a bullet wound in the back. And as far as I know … [view original content]
I wouldn't find it intriguing, I'd find it as fan-service. The relationship is already intriguing and dangerous putting romance doesn't add that. And how are you to establish a romance without a kiss or the sex aspect? It's just a friendship without that so why even bother having the romance? Its completely unnecessary and unneeded.
Their friendship is toxic, dangerous, intriguing and heartbreaking. The romance literally adds nothing that the friendship doesn't already have, unless you add the kiss. Which most people are going to be uncomfortable with, especially if they accidentally choose that option like was done with Javier in WD ANF.
Also I was very much against a Harley romance. So I'll agree on that much, but thank goodness Telltale seems to have shut that down.
Some people think it was fan service for the BatJoke fans. And well, I think it was a little desperate if you pay attention to the subtext. … moreHe actually hugs you more "friendly" if you go and say you belive him at the start of the Fun House scene.
That hug, as I said in one post, has many hidden emotions on it. And "HEY DANGER" is one of them . That's why I compliment Telltale eairler on my first post. Have you ever seen Joker hugging Batman like that before?
And GamerLady, I respect your opinons, but I disagree completely. I understand you are among the people who would totally oppose romancing Joker, and thats ok. That's why the OP and many others believe that the posibility should be totally optional and carefully made.
There is a whole crowd of people that were cheering for a Harley romantic option in the forums. So, glamoring the idea of romancing a crazy socipath like Harley dosen't makes it more wierd as romancing Batman's mortal… [view original content]
He doesn't say 'it was self-defense, wasn't it?' In fact what he says indicates that he's trying to fabricate a believable story to act as if it was self defense.
People have family members that are unstable so I'm not sure where your going with that? I don't know many people that get involved romantically with someone that are that unstable, but I suppose that's just me? And I am more saying if its anything its most likely a brotherly love than romantic. And I actually feel its more on Johns end than Bruce. But if Bruce cares for John I don't see how its romantic. That's all I mean.
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let h… moreer be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
meh... I am not saying he doesn't love her, so maybe someone else will be better able to answer that one. The whole season has been him ''''struggling''''' to choose between the two; and by ''struggling'' , I mean John choosing Bruce every single fucking time except if you fuck up big time ( at the cafe, and basically once the stitch is broken... )
And even after the cafe thing he acts angry for two sec, but doesn't tell Harley you stole the laptop, and instead go back to other you to help you steal it from her... well...
He was fine sending her in Arkham even before episode 4 just so he could impress Batman. He may not want to get her hurt, but then I advize... not helping Batman or Bruce AT AL… [view original content]
That's ok. Some other people would. And you don't need sex to be in love with someone. There are lots of ways, I think, that Telltale could address this, but that's up to them indeed. Especially the concers about choosing that by accident. That is up to the game designers.
And I don't think is unnecessary or uneeded more as it may be odd to not actually being able to romance John. Joker is always obssessed with Batman with hints of infatuation, is almost a like rule.
I wouldn't find it intriguing, I'd find it as fan-service. The relationship is already intriguing and dangerous putting romance doesn't add … morethat. And how are you to establish a romance without a kiss or the sex aspect? It's just a friendship without that so why even bother having the romance? Its completely unnecessary and unneeded.
Their friendship is toxic, dangerous, intriguing and heartbreaking. The romance literally adds nothing that the friendship doesn't already have, unless you add the kiss. Which most people are going to be uncomfortable with, especially if they accidentally choose that option like was done with Javier in WD ANF.
Also I was very much against a Harley romance. So I'll agree on that much, but thank goodness Telltale seems to have shut that down.
Wow I couldn't possibly agree more with the entirety of your comment.
Also, as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts, this projection of sex in both characters is unnecessary. They don't even need to kiss. Their connection is beyond sexuality, or love. The reason I think many people find their "love-hate" intriguing, is that the connection that Batman and Joker share seems to be beyond any normal human relationship.
To put it simply, if Batman suddenly drinked some sort of magic potion that transformed him into a woman, Joker wouldn't give a damn, his intense feelings or obssession wouldn't change. I think the balant flirting he makes in the comics would be the same, if not, even more.
and this especially. The type of love they share is beyond the romantic love typically encountered. I think it's about what the character's represent for each other in both a philosophical and psychological level. There's a deep connexion there and they understand each other and each other's needs better than anyone else could. Joker is in love with Batman and John might very well be as well, it doesn't mean they absolutely need to kiss for the sentiment to be there... clear as days... It just show somehow.
Some people think it was fan service for the BatJoke fans. And well, I think it was a little desperate if you pay attention to the subtext. … moreHe actually hugs you more "friendly" if you go and say you belive him at the start of the Fun House scene.
That hug, as I said in one post, has many hidden emotions on it. And "HEY DANGER" is one of them . That's why I compliment Telltale eairler on my first post. Have you ever seen Joker hugging Batman like that before?
And GamerLady, I respect your opinons, but I disagree completely. I understand you are among the people who would totally oppose romancing Joker, and thats ok. That's why the OP and many others believe that the posibility should be totally optional and carefully made.
There is a whole crowd of people that were cheering for a Harley romantic option in the forums. So, glamoring the idea of romancing a crazy socipath like Harley dosen't makes it more wierd as romancing Batman's mortal… [view original content]
Then why are you asking for romance if you just want John to love Batman in a no sexual way? In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
Wow I couldn't possibly agree more with the entirety of your comment.
Also, as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts, this proje… morection of sex in both characters is unnecessary. They don't even need to kiss. Their connection is beyond sexuality, or love. The reason I think many people find their "love-hate" intriguing, is that the connection that Batman and Joker share seems to be beyond any normal human relationship.
To put it simply, if Batman suddenly drinked some sort of magic potion that transformed him into a woman, Joker wouldn't give a damn, his intense feelings or obssession wouldn't change. I think the balant flirting he makes in the comics would be the same, if not, even more.
and this especially. The type of love they share is beyond the romantic love typically encountered. I think it's about what the character's represent for each other in both a philosophical and psychological level. There's a deep conne… [view original content]
Hey I want them to kiss... They can fuck too and make it a QTE, that sure would be fun. I just say it's not necessary and it probably wouldn't be their favorite activity... John/Joker and Bruce/Batman are comfortable in the thrill, they enjoy fighting ( dances ), they go and make sex metaphores, and Joker gets jealous of Batman's girlfriends, they have those deep conversation and they push each other to introspect because they see so much of each other in the other. They challenge each other, and are very dependant of one another ( Joker mostly of course ).
I wouldn't sacrifice their intense connection for the sake of kiss and sex because it would be ruining why I like their relationship in the first place, but If kiss and sex happen then I can't say I am gonna be one to complain. Since Telltale Batman has been ''special'' until now, nothing can surprise me anymore.
Then why are you asking for romance if you just want John to love Batman in a no sexual way? In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
I'm not sure that I follow. My understanding of romantic love without sex is a love that isn't reciprocated. For a romantic relationship you absolutely need sex involved. If that were not the case than there's nothing special about a romantic relationship and it could literally be said 'I have a romantic relationship with my siblings and parents' and it wouldn't be considered incest. Its not romance without sex its just a friendship which Bruce and John already have. So why add the romance if you feel that the kiss and sex aren't needed for it?
Maybe give an example of how you see it going down? That might help me understand where your going with it. I don't think that just saying 'I love you' really would help though because that can be said between friends who aren't romantically involved or do have a close familial bond. You'd have to add the body language and make it seem sexual or something for it to come off romantic.
Its like with Bruce and Selina their interactions had the sexual tension and you knew there was a possibility for them to be romantically involved.
Is that what you mean? To just have the body language or something? Or just to have the two flirt?
That's ok. Some other people would. And you don't need sex to be in love with someone. There are lots of ways, I think, that Telltale could … moreaddress this, but that's up to them indeed. Especially the concers about choosing that by accident. That is up to the game designers.
And I don't think is unnecessary or uneeded more as it may be odd to not actually being able to romance John. Joker is always obssessed with Batman with hints of infatuation, is almost a like rule.
Yes, and this is exaclty why I think, many people dismiss the possibility of both characters loving the other, because it dosen't "fit" in their own projections of love.
At this point, we are talking about fiction. Joker and Batman "love" is in no way traditional, and is not because they are same gender. Is because, if you bother on reading anything about them, they share that soul thing that no one else in their universe gets. Is almost an unespoken sort of "love". Is completly twisted, unhealty, and totally dangerous.
As you said is not physical, but is totally a thing of the "mind". You could say that their "love" lies in madness. It has be hinted many times in the comics, and at this point in the movies. I think they both see each other as the same creature but on different sides of the mirror. So yeah, "love" in their minds is in no way like "normal" love.
Wow I couldn't possibly agree more with the entirety of your comment.
Also, as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts, this proje… morection of sex in both characters is unnecessary. They don't even need to kiss. Their connection is beyond sexuality, or love. The reason I think many people find their "love-hate" intriguing, is that the connection that Batman and Joker share seems to be beyond any normal human relationship.
To put it simply, if Batman suddenly drinked some sort of magic potion that transformed him into a woman, Joker wouldn't give a damn, his intense feelings or obssession wouldn't change. I think the balant flirting he makes in the comics would be the same, if not, even more.
and this especially. The type of love they share is beyond the romantic love typically encountered. I think it's about what the character's represent for each other in both a philosophical and psychological level. There's a deep conne… [view original content]
Hey I want them to kiss... They can fuck too and make it a QTE, that sure would be fun. I just say it's not necessary and it probably wouldn… more't be their favorite activity... John/Joker and Bruce/Batman are comfortable in the thrill, they enjoy fighting ( dances ), they go and make sex metaphores, and Joker gets jealous of Batman's girlfriends, they have those deep conversation and they push each other to introspect because they see so much of each other in the other. They challenge each other, and are very dependant of one another ( Joker mostly of course ).
I wouldn't sacrifice their intense connection for the sake of kiss and sex because it would be ruining why I like their relationship in the first place, but If kiss and sex happen then I can't say I am gonna be one to complain. Since Telltale Batman has been ''special'' until now, nothing can surprise me anymore.
I'm not sure that I follow. My understanding of romantic love without sex is a love that isn't reciprocated. For a romantic relationship you… more absolutely need sex involved. If that were not the case than there's nothing special about a romantic relationship and it could literally be said 'I have a romantic relationship with my siblings and parents' and it wouldn't be considered incest. Its not romance without sex its just a friendship which Bruce and John already have. So why add the romance if you feel that the kiss and sex aren't needed for it?
Maybe give an example of how you see it going down? That might help me understand where your going with it. I don't think that just saying 'I love you' really would help though because that can be said between friends who aren't romantically involved or do have a close familial bond. You'd have to add the body language and make it seem sexual or something for it to come off romantic.
Its like with Br… [view original content]
What I'm getting from these posts is Telltale doesn't actually need to change anything. Just to keep the relationship as is and some will manage to find it romantic.
Then why are you asking for romance if you just want John to love Batman in a no sexual way? In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
I did that's why I'm asking. I'm saying I don't really understand the point of the romance without the sex. What you've described without it sounds like your calling it romance without the romance. If that makes sense.
It can't be as romantic as Harvey burning down your mansion as a clear metaphor that he is burning in the inside because he can't have Bruce in his life cuz Brucie is in love with Selina and that he finds Batman as hot as that burning mansion.
What I'm getting from these posts is Telltale doesn't actually need to change anything. Just to keep the relationship as is and some will manage to find it romantic.
lmao! Those are some fine points you have there. Marvelous! I think I'm gonna start shipping Harvey and Bruce. But if I'm being honest, it was the meme of 'you'll always be beautiful to me Harv' that was really the selling point. It brought back the memories of that conversation and I just don't think the Bruce and John ship can compete. lol. He certainly didn't say 'your special... to me!' Clearly Harvey's more important.
It can't be as romantic as Harvey burning down your mansion as a clear metaphor that he is burning in the inside because he can't have Bruce in his life cuz Brucie is in love with Selina and that he finds Batman as hot as that burning mansion.
"Love" has many ways of expressing. And it all depends on your own views on it. People who has been married for 50 years and dosen't have sex still love each other very much. Then you have people who only have sex for children and don't touch each other again because of their beliefs.
Then you have Batman and Joker, two fictional characters, that make love when they battle, hate each other intensely because they can't get enough of the other. Spend 90% of their time thinking into how to outmaneuver the other intellectually, trying to be one leading on their many "dances". They pratically burn the world around them and transform it into living hell, just so that they can keep playing their "game".
People close to Bruce gets, hurt, killed or tortured, and he stills refuse to kill Joker, because in his twisted mind he needs him as much as Joker needs him.
They excite and tease each other in this insane and twisted game they play with one another. They always attemting to dominate each other while reveling in the opportinuty to stimulate both their minds and bodies by being violent with each another. Domination and fore-play takes the form of mind-games and combat. Joker is always trying to make Batman succumb into his darkest desires, while he being in a position of control, and Batman deep down enjoys the challenge. Do I need to make it more explicit?
I did that's why I'm asking. I'm saying I don't really understand the point of the romance without the sex. What you've described without it sounds like your calling it romance without the romance. If that makes sense.
Except the Joker isn't special just because Bruce doesn't kill him. Bruce doesn't kill anyone so I guess he must feel that way with all the villains he encounters. Not to mention Bruce isn't teasing John, you actually seem to be describing Batman and Catwoman's relationship. He has fun with her. I've seen mostly concern and worry with John. Bruce doesn't seem like he's having any fun at all when it comes to John. Maybe some small instances but nothing to what your describing.
"Love" has many ways of expressing. And it all depends on your own views on it. People who has been married for 50 years and dosen't have se… morex still love each other very much. Then you have people who only have sex for children and don't touch each other again because of their beliefs.
Then you have Batman and Joker, two fictional characters, that make love when they battle, hate each other intensely because they can't get enough of the other. Spend 90% of their time thinking into how to outmaneuver the other intellectually, trying to be one leading on their many "dances". They pratically burn the world around them and transform it into living hell, just so that they can keep playing their "game".
People close to Bruce gets, hurt, killed or tortured, and he stills refuse to kill Joker, because in his twisted mind he needs him as much as Joker needs him.
They excite and tease each other in this insane and twisted game they play with one an… [view original content]
Well, you can think whatever you like. But, that's how they are always mostly potrayed. In this game, there are lots of subtext. And is not in there casually or by accident, it is intentional. Mellorine has already posted many examples.
Except the Joker isn't special just because Bruce doesn't kill him. Bruce doesn't kill anyone so I guess he must feel that way with all the … morevillains he encounters. Not to mention Bruce isn't teasing John, you actually seem to be describing Batman and Catwoman's relationship. He has fun with her. I've seen mostly concern and worry with John. Bruce doesn't seem like he's having any fun at all when it comes to John. Maybe some small instances but nothing to what your describing.
Well, you can think whatever you like. But, that's how they are always mostly potrayed. In this game, there are lots of subtext. And is not in there casually or by accident, it is intentional. Mellorine has already posted many examples.
That's why playing a game about choices should lead you to whatever people like. I hope Telltale dosen't shy away from what they being crafting, just because some people finds it unconfortable.
But with that logic they should give us an option to kill everyone in Gotham and nobody can complain because "you can not pick that option".
(Damn I quoted the wrong comment, I wanted to quote the one below that one)
But with that logic they should give us an option to kill everyone in Gotham and nobody can complain because "you can not pick that option".
(Damn I quoted the wrong comment, I wanted to quote the one below that one)
woops, I had to go back and it seems I am the one who had my memories all mixed up not John. I agree that he didn't say '' it was self defense wasn't it'' ( I mixed it up with something else he said in the monologue )... and it does change everything. He is indeed fabricating a lie for Bruce to forgive him.
I still believe he has a split personnality from the way he talks... It really seemed like he regretted what happened ( not necessarily because he cared about these people but because Bruce is about to see it ). It's like he was in a completely different state of mind when he did it. So some of the things I said still stand... while some other don't.
Somehow it doesn't mean he is lying completely either, he thought they were intruding, that they were coming for them ( Harley and himself ), he even momentarily considered Bruce to be the one to send them after him. That plus the fact he is worried about cops shooting before talking may have left him feel threatened before they even had the chance to really threaten him. And to be honest, I wouldn't say it's completely impossible they would have indeed shot him if he hadn't killed them. It depends of how much similarities are shared between Waller and whoever was there to lead the operation. If he hadn't killed them and they hadn't shot him, they would have brought him back to Arkham... and it's also something he clearly dreads. He has spent all his life there and he describes the place as dreadful, he sure doesn't want to go back.
When Bruce is talking to him in the last two scenes of episodes 4, John already gets upset and suspicious really easely... Imagine his reaction seeig complete strangers and armed cops entering the place. For him to believe it was self defense when it really wasn't is not impossible.
For some reason, rewatching the monologue just made me feel for him even more. It's just sad to be honest... Yo what the fuck Telltale.
He doesn't say 'it was self-defense, wasn't it?' In fact what he says indicates that he's trying to fabricate a believable story to act as i… moref it was self defense.
People have family members that are unstable so I'm not sure where your going with that? I don't know many people that get involved romantically with someone that are that unstable, but I suppose that's just me? And I am more saying if its anything its most likely a brotherly love than romantic. And I actually feel its more on Johns end than Bruce. But if Bruce cares for John I don't see how its romantic. That's all I mean.
Yeah he definitely did lie and I don't think it was self-defense. I do think he snapped and maybe he's even a bit of a pathological liar. Truth be told when I first played and I was hearing him go, 'what am I gonna tell Bruce?' and stuff, I didn't notice the agent bodies and just saw the blood. I thought maybe he snapped and killed Harley. Which would have been better because I was all 'NO WAY!' I thought maybe he lost it because of her betrayal and she just made it worse or something. But it wasn't her, sadly. It was just agents so I was all 'oh... well... okay. Not as intense but still, damn.' But the whole scene was great and I really loved it. This whole episode I pretty much loved every interaction with each character. The entire season so far has been so amazing.
woops, I had to go back and it seems I am the one who had my memories all mixed up not John. I agree that he didn't say '' it was self defen… morese wasn't it'' ( I mixed it up with something else he said in the monologue )... and it does change everything. He is indeed fabricating a lie for Bruce to forgive him.
I still believe he has a split personnality from the way he talks... It really seemed like he regretted what happened ( not necessarily because he cared about these people but because Bruce is about to see it ). It's like he was in a completely different state of mind when he did it. So some of the things I said still stand... while some other don't.
Somehow it doesn't mean he is lying completely either, he thought they were intruding, that they were coming for them ( Harley and himself ), he even momentarily considered Bruce to be the one to send them after him. That plus the fact he is worried about cops shooting before talking may h… [view original content]
Well, I belive that Harley has somehow made that split personality on John, and maybe John knows that at some level. Because the way he "loves" Harley in this universe is a reversal from their typical roles of abuse and manipulation. In the normal universe he is the one who manipulates Harley into loving him, in this one is the other way around. But he cares about Bruce more. His actions speak louder than his words. I think that Harley has coerced John into loving her, just as much as he has done in the main universe. He breaks her emotionally and mentally and drives her insane, Harley may have done the same here. To Harley he is just a "toy" she says so herself and runs away without caring much for John's emotions.
John has a problem with rejection, he snaps with just any small negativity he gets from the person he cares about, he gets paranoid and agressive. He may have "snaped" and killed the guards, when he saw that Harley was gone. And he gets paranoid when he sees Bruce. He is very different from the calm and calculating individual we find in Season One, maybe is during this time that he meets Harley, but the timing dosen't fit completely. Maybe he met Bruce first and then he met Harley.
woops, I had to go back and it seems I am the one who had my memories all mixed up not John. I agree that he didn't say '' it was self defen… morese wasn't it'' ( I mixed it up with something else he said in the monologue )... and it does change everything. He is indeed fabricating a lie for Bruce to forgive him.
I still believe he has a split personnality from the way he talks... It really seemed like he regretted what happened ( not necessarily because he cared about these people but because Bruce is about to see it ). It's like he was in a completely different state of mind when he did it. So some of the things I said still stand... while some other don't.
Somehow it doesn't mean he is lying completely either, he thought they were intruding, that they were coming for them ( Harley and himself ), he even momentarily considered Bruce to be the one to send them after him. That plus the fact he is worried about cops shooting before talking may h… [view original content]
Comments
Me neither, and that's one of the many reasons why I support it. It's very likely to go terribly wrong for the both of them, and I like tragedies.
I completely agree with your perception of Joker's feelings for Batman and how dangerous it would be in this context as well.
I wasn't entirely sure a John romance would necessarily make the plot any better... I was like ''it could if they pulled it well'', and I defended the idea several times in here, but it's only after playing episode 4 I am fairly convinced it would be just a cherry on top of this season.
This is gripping and exciting.
Yes, I'm actually just a little bumped that all my past decisions on John during the Fun House scene didn't get mentioned at all. That's why I think some people didn't like the "hug" thing. I think that particular affection should only be available to the people that "flirted" with John, because a potential romance with his character is not for everyone. It shouldn't have looked as desperate as it did if you are choosing to befriend him only.
Agreed. It shouldn't be imposed to anybody.
Did people dislike the hug ? I have a hard time understanding why, it's not like you can control what John does or how he feels. In the span of a few minutes he got from ''that's it, Bruce is gonna ditch me'' to '' he believes me despite all the evidences against me''... of course he would hug him.
Bruce didn't ( and couldn't ) hug him back by default and seemed rather uncomfortable/taken aback... you even have the choice to pull away and say you'd still bring him in.
What is there to be upset about ? It's Bruce we are playing after all.
I think it would make sense for another character to have the hug be optional, but It just seem to make sense to me that child-like John hugs him regardless of whether or not Bruce has been flirting with him... This hug itself didn't really seem romantic compared to many other things John does by default. We are talking about a guy who says doing dangerous things with Bruce gives him butterfly in his stomach, says Bruce being violent got his heart racing, describes love as a dizziness and then proceeds to say Bruce gave him a feeling of indigestion, and he is always a ''please'' away from betraying Harley for ''his'' Batman.
The hug in itself ? He just looked like a child overwhelmed.
Friends hug, and he considers you a friend at this point.
I am pretty sure that if John has any feeling that is more than friendship he had it in every game, he just may not realise it and the realization would depend on how the player's treated him.
Is there something specific they didn't like about the hug ? Something I may have missed out ?
Did anyone miss the fact that if John goes villain he kisses Harley? If he goes vigilante he still worries about Harley and refuses to let her be killed. If you go 'John, Harley betrayed us both.' He says, 'But you weren't in love with her.'
Honestly the relationship between John and Bruce is a friendship. And he's not very loyal I have to agree with @Kaelthas and @Gartives because even if you are able to convince John and Tiffany to be quiet John still tells Harley about her, giving Harley leverage over Bruce.
He also does lie about the agents. Its foolish to believe it was self-defense and if you do you'd probably make for a bad detective. First his story is 'I just grabbed something and started swinging' that indicates he used a blunt object, but if you look all of the agents have been shot. The one up against the wall that John was talking to has a bullet wound the one Bruce examines has a bullet wound in the back. And as far as I know the only weapons lying around are guns. Perhaps I'm wrong if I am, my bad, but that is what I've seen from that scene and there seems to be nothing there to validate what John claims. He even changes the story once Bruce mentions there was a gun in play.
Also I think a romance would cheapen their friendship and be extremely weird. John is way unstable, Bruce knows it and romancing him would feel wrong on so many levels. You also don't need to make-out with someone to truly care for them. Bruce can love John but a brotherly love by far exceeds a romance at this point.
Who are you gonna care more for? The little brother that's in need or a fling you know will never last?
And nothing about the hug they share is even remotely sexual. Nothing about it suggests they should bang each other. It literally makes me think of a kid brother hugging his big bro who feels awkward about hugs.
I agree with you completly exept John's lie.
Bruce doesn't believe him anyway about how agents were killed, the option to beilieve him is about his self-defence version. He did shot them with the gun and Bruce knows it anyway, it's obvious. But John's first intention was to lie to Bruce about not killing them at all. In the end he just lied about killing them with the melee. He knows Batman hates killing and he just killed 3 men. He panics, just look at his monologue. Trying to make some clumsy excuses.
Let's imagine for one second he DID kill them in self-defence, how does it look to Batman in John's eyes anyway? Former insane asylym patient covered in blood and surrounded by corpses, known to be unstable and with a criminal record. Not a very nice picture.
The way I see what happened, they attacked him, he attacked them. When they tried to surrender, he shot woman in the back. Survival instinct. Still self-defence. Cool? Not cool. But doesn't mean he lied. He's known to telling half-truths. Should he be punished? Depends on what really happened.
Well, I suppose anything is possible in regards. But my guess is they either shot at Harley and he wanted to protect her and he snapped or he lost control because that was his and Harley's special place and they were intruding on it, therefore ruining his 'sanctuary.'
I'm really hoping telltale elaborates on it. Maybe John slips up about it while he's venting about the agency to Bruce, trying to convince Bruce to let him help. And you found out from that if it was self-defense or not. I'm 100% positive it wasn't self-defense but I can still be wrong because I'm not the writers.
I'm sure they'll tell us.
Some people think it was fan service for the BatJoke fans. And well, I think it was a little desperate if you pay attention to the subtext. He actually hugs you more "friendly" if you go and say you belive him at the start of the Fun House scene.
. That's why I compliment Telltale eairler on my first post. Have you ever seen Joker hugging Batman like that before?
That hug, as I said in one post, has many hidden emotions on it. And "HEY DANGER" is one of them
And GamerLady, I respect your opinons, but I disagree completely. I understand you are among the people who would totally oppose romancing Joker, and thats ok. That's why the OP and many others believe that the posibility should be totally optional and carefully made.
There is a whole crowd of people that were cheering for a Harley romantic option in the forums. So, glamoring the idea of romancing a crazy socipath like Harley dosen't makes it more wierd as romancing Batman's mortal nemesis.
There is actually lots of story potential with an infatuated Joker being your mortal enemy or your ally. It means you would need to be even more careful of being on his good side.
Also, as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts, this projection of sex in both characters is unnecessary. They don't even need to kiss. Their connection is beyond sexuality, or love. The reason I think many people find their "love-hate" intriguing, is that the connection that Batman and Joker share seems to be beyond any normal human relationship.
To put it simply, if Batman suddenly drinked some sort of magic potion that transformed him into a woman, Joker wouldn't give a damn, his intense feelings or obssession wouldn't change. I think the balant flirting he makes in the comics would be the same, if not, even more.
In almost any media were they are potrayed together there is this traditional "existential connection" on them that hints on the "romance" they share. Is it real romance?. No, they are comicbook characters.
Romancing Joker or even befriend him in this game, however you want to put it, is wrong. Yet, people play friends with him, because is something that is rearely seen, besides is fantasy. Romacing Joker, is no different. Is actually more intriguing. And totally dangerous.
meh... I am not saying he doesn't love her, so maybe someone else will be better able to answer that one. The whole season has been him ''''struggling''''' to choose between the two; and by ''struggling'' , I mean John choosing Bruce every single fucking time except if you fuck up big time ( at the cafe, and basically once the stitch is broken... )
And even after the cafe thing he acts angry for two sec, but doesn't tell Harley you stole the laptop, and instead go back to other you to help you steal it from her... well...
He was fine sending her in Arkham even before episode 4 just so he could impress Batman. He may not want to get her hurt, but then I advize... not helping Batman or Bruce AT ALL... but nope, couldn't help it. We would not have been able to stop the pact members in time without his help since episode 1, he just kept helping you... knowingly. The guy is pretty consistant with his priorities.
And why would he do such a thing ?
If I was John and I knew Batman had the tendency to put his life in danger to help people, I wouldn't count on the sole menace of hurting him for him to give up on Cats. Bringing up Tiffany is ensuring that Bruce could actually put the blame on Cats rather than die himself. And if there's one thing I am pretty convinced by now, is that for whichever reason you want, John really doesn't want Bruce to die.
John is being manipulative though, and it might not be considered loyal even if its to save Bruce life...depends on perspective.
As I said before, I don't believe he killed in self defense, but I believe he believes he did. Maybe someone who believes he killed inself defense would be better at answering you. His monologue strongly indicates he doesn't have clear memories of what happened, he is all like ''it was self defense ! It was self defense...Wasn't it ?'' . He says what he vaguely remembers so Bruce doesn't hate him, it's kind of a natural thing to do in fact. He is merely convincing himself that the few memories of ''self defense'' he had are indeed correct.
I believe him when he says something dark took a hold of him and he doesn't remember.
But he could also be lying, didn't he say he had some ''things'' to do before getting Harley. I just don't really understand the point of doing it though.. I know doing things for fun is not beneath J but it's jeopardizing the work of 5 episode just so he could kill a few agents ? meh. I don't believe that.
Split personnality is the most likely theory, even as he talks in this scene and the one in Harley's office it feels like he is switching between two sides of himself ( genuine and manipulative ).
I think brotherly love can be of lesser, stronger, and of equivalent intensity as romance depending on who we are talking about.
However, John's romantic feelings will lead the player to reconsider his interactions with Harley and Bruce. John has a peculiar perception of relationship and It's something to reflect on. It's because there's a discrepancy between what he says and what he shows that it's interesting, there would be contradictory informations, and the player would be forced to think instead of just accepting what he says as truth. What I adore about John is the fact I need to to look twice at every single thing he does. If I take things at face value, I'd see John's smile as he has his back turned to Bruce, hear his tone as it goes from anxious to mocking and I would just ditch him from there. But since It's not the first episode I am playing I can look back and ask myself ''would it make sense for him to lie ?'' '' what did he say/do before that could shade light to what happened there ?'' John is such a brillant character for that.
Him being in love with Bruce rather than Harley just make sense, and it still does after Bruce literally ''breaks his heart'' and he goes on a rampage and becomes his mortal enemy, finally getting Harley's attention.
Its interesting that you say Brotherly love is more important than romantic love in your opinion, but proceeds to say that it would be weird for Bruce to fall in love with John since he is unstable while it's fine for him to consider him a little brother whom he cares about a lot. Isn't there some kind of paradox in there ? Since Brotherly love is more important than romantic love to you, shouldn't it be weirder for Bruce to have all these intense brotherly feelings for an unstable man than it would be if he had romantic ones ?
Personnaly, I always fond the concept of Bruce being very close to someone who's not a criminal/who's completely sane, to be weirder than it is when he is with a criminal ( look at him with Cats, Harvey and John ). It's just whe he evolves you know...it just happens. I feel like you overestimate Bruce's sanity level at this point of the serie. Him starting something with John wouldn't even phase me at this point, he has a ''kind of crazy'' remember ? He already cares about John, he is already in deep. I find Bruce to be the weirdest character alongside John, in fact. I think the fact Bruce takes himself seriously makes him weirder, so when he smiles while taking selfies with the pact, pokes riddler corpes, goes on speeches about manipulation, can be needlessly brutal with people and get deeper and deeper into isolation, I don't even know what to say.
We already had this discussion tho, and I think I already said I don't think Bruce likes John ''like that'' even though the option would be welcomed. It would definitely be an interesting turn of event.
I am convinced it has tons of potential but It's not me dude... it's episode 4's fault.
I wouldn't find it intriguing, I'd find it as fan-service. The relationship is already intriguing and dangerous putting romance doesn't add that. And how are you to establish a romance without a kiss or the sex aspect? It's just a friendship without that so why even bother having the romance? Its completely unnecessary and unneeded.
Their friendship is toxic, dangerous, intriguing and heartbreaking. The romance literally adds nothing that the friendship doesn't already have, unless you add the kiss. Which most people are going to be uncomfortable with, especially if they accidentally choose that option like was done with Javier in WD ANF.
Also I was very much against a Harley romance. So I'll agree on that much, but thank goodness Telltale seems to have shut that down.
He doesn't say 'it was self-defense, wasn't it?' In fact what he says indicates that he's trying to fabricate a believable story to act as if it was self defense.
People have family members that are unstable so I'm not sure where your going with that? I don't know many people that get involved romantically with someone that are that unstable, but I suppose that's just me? And I am more saying if its anything its most likely a brotherly love than romantic. And I actually feel its more on Johns end than Bruce. But if Bruce cares for John I don't see how its romantic. That's all I mean.
That's ok. Some other people would. And you don't need sex to be in love with someone. There are lots of ways, I think, that Telltale could address this, but that's up to them indeed. Especially the concers about choosing that by accident. That is up to the game designers.
And I don't think is unnecessary or uneeded more as it may be odd to not actually being able to romance John. Joker is always obssessed with Batman with hints of infatuation, is almost a like rule.
Wow I couldn't possibly agree more with the entirety of your comment.
and this especially. The type of love they share is beyond the romantic love typically encountered. I think it's about what the character's represent for each other in both a philosophical and psychological level. There's a deep connexion there and they understand each other and each other's needs better than anyone else could. Joker is in love with Batman and John might very well be as well, it doesn't mean they absolutely need to kiss for the sentiment to be there... clear as days... It just show somehow.
Then why are you asking for romance if you just want John to love Batman in a no sexual way? In my times loving someone who was not related to you in blood was called Friendship.
Hey I want them to kiss... They can fuck too and make it a QTE, that sure would be fun. I just say it's not necessary and it probably wouldn't be their favorite activity... John/Joker and Bruce/Batman are comfortable in the thrill, they enjoy fighting ( dances ), they go and make sex metaphores, and Joker gets jealous of Batman's girlfriends, they have those deep conversation and they push each other to introspect because they see so much of each other in the other. They challenge each other, and are very dependant of one another ( Joker mostly of course ).
I wouldn't sacrifice their intense connection for the sake of kiss and sex because it would be ruining why I like their relationship in the first place, but If kiss and sex happen then I can't say I am gonna be one to complain. Since Telltale Batman has been ''special'' until now, nothing can surprise me anymore.
I'm not sure that I follow. My understanding of romantic love without sex is a love that isn't reciprocated. For a romantic relationship you absolutely need sex involved. If that were not the case than there's nothing special about a romantic relationship and it could literally be said 'I have a romantic relationship with my siblings and parents' and it wouldn't be considered incest. Its not romance without sex its just a friendship which Bruce and John already have. So why add the romance if you feel that the kiss and sex aren't needed for it?
Maybe give an example of how you see it going down? That might help me understand where your going with it. I don't think that just saying 'I love you' really would help though because that can be said between friends who aren't romantically involved or do have a close familial bond. You'd have to add the body language and make it seem sexual or something for it to come off romantic.
Its like with Bruce and Selina their interactions had the sexual tension and you knew there was a possibility for them to be romantically involved.
Is that what you mean? To just have the body language or something? Or just to have the two flirt?
Yes, and this is exaclty why I think, many people dismiss the possibility of both characters loving the other, because it dosen't "fit" in their own projections of love.
At this point, we are talking about fiction. Joker and Batman "love" is in no way traditional, and is not because they are same gender. Is because, if you bother on reading anything about them, they share that soul thing that no one else in their universe gets. Is almost an unespoken sort of "love". Is completly twisted, unhealty, and totally dangerous.
As you said is not physical, but is totally a thing of the "mind". You could say that their "love" lies in madness. It has be hinted many times in the comics, and at this point in the movies. I think they both see each other as the same creature but on different sides of the mirror. So yeah, "love" in their minds is in no way like "normal" love.
You know, I think you're right, in fact, I know of a place where all that can happen, first time tomorrow I'm taking you there.
Read my above post.
What I'm getting from these posts is Telltale doesn't actually need to change anything. Just to keep the relationship as is and some will manage to find it romantic.
I did that's why I'm asking. I'm saying I don't really understand the point of the romance without the sex. What you've described without it sounds like your calling it romance without the romance. If that makes sense.
It can't be as romantic as Harvey burning down your mansion as a clear metaphor that he is burning in the inside because he can't have Bruce in his life cuz Brucie is in love with Selina and that he finds Batman as hot as that burning mansion.
lmao! Those are some fine points you have there. Marvelous! I think I'm gonna start shipping Harvey and Bruce. But if I'm being honest, it was the meme of 'you'll always be beautiful to me Harv' that was really the selling point. It brought back the memories of that conversation and I just don't think the Bruce and John ship can compete. lol. He certainly didn't say 'your special... to me!' Clearly Harvey's more important.
"Love" has many ways of expressing. And it all depends on your own views on it. People who has been married for 50 years and dosen't have sex still love each other very much. Then you have people who only have sex for children and don't touch each other again because of their beliefs.
Then you have Batman and Joker, two fictional characters, that make love when they battle, hate each other intensely because they can't get enough of the other. Spend 90% of their time thinking into how to outmaneuver the other intellectually, trying to be one leading on their many "dances". They pratically burn the world around them and transform it into living hell, just so that they can keep playing their "game".
People close to Bruce gets, hurt, killed or tortured, and he stills refuse to kill Joker, because in his twisted mind he needs him as much as Joker needs him.
They excite and tease each other in this insane and twisted game they play with one another. They always attemting to dominate each other while reveling in the opportinuty to stimulate both their minds and bodies by being violent with each another. Domination and fore-play takes the form of mind-games and combat. Joker is always trying to make Batman succumb into his darkest desires, while he being in a position of control, and Batman deep down enjoys the challenge. Do I need to make it more explicit?
Except the Joker isn't special just because Bruce doesn't kill him. Bruce doesn't kill anyone so I guess he must feel that way with all the villains he encounters. Not to mention Bruce isn't teasing John, you actually seem to be describing Batman and Catwoman's relationship. He has fun with her. I've seen mostly concern and worry with John. Bruce doesn't seem like he's having any fun at all when it comes to John. Maybe some small instances but nothing to what your describing.
Well, you can think whatever you like. But, that's how they are always mostly potrayed. In this game, there are lots of subtext. And is not in there casually or by accident, it is intentional. Mellorine has already posted many examples.
Just as I have posted many examples as to why its not there. But your right we can all think whatever we like.
I wouldn't say is not there.
That's why playing a game about choices should lead you to whatever people like. I hope Telltale dosen't shy away from what they being crafting, just because some people finds it unconfortable.
But with that logic they should give us an option to kill everyone in Gotham and nobody can complain because "you can not pick that option".
(Damn I quoted the wrong comment, I wanted to quote the one below that one)
Ha. You can actually kill every npc in a game if you like. Like Skyrim.
You can also have guy on guy romances like in Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
Yeah, let's hope Telltale can follow
Well, you hope. I'll hope not.
dun- dun - dun
wah- wah- waaahhhh. lol. That took awhile to remember.
woops, I had to go back and it seems I am the one who had my memories all mixed up not John. I agree that he didn't say '' it was self defense wasn't it'' ( I mixed it up with something else he said in the monologue )... and it does change everything. He is indeed fabricating a lie for Bruce to forgive him.
I still believe he has a split personnality from the way he talks... It really seemed like he regretted what happened ( not necessarily because he cared about these people but because Bruce is about to see it ). It's like he was in a completely different state of mind when he did it. So some of the things I said still stand... while some other don't.
Somehow it doesn't mean he is lying completely either, he thought they were intruding, that they were coming for them ( Harley and himself ), he even momentarily considered Bruce to be the one to send them after him. That plus the fact he is worried about cops shooting before talking may have left him feel threatened before they even had the chance to really threaten him. And to be honest, I wouldn't say it's completely impossible they would have indeed shot him if he hadn't killed them. It depends of how much similarities are shared between Waller and whoever was there to lead the operation. If he hadn't killed them and they hadn't shot him, they would have brought him back to Arkham... and it's also something he clearly dreads. He has spent all his life there and he describes the place as dreadful, he sure doesn't want to go back.
When Bruce is talking to him in the last two scenes of episodes 4, John already gets upset and suspicious really easely... Imagine his reaction seeig complete strangers and armed cops entering the place. For him to believe it was self defense when it really wasn't is not impossible.
For some reason, rewatching the monologue just made me feel for him even more. It's just sad to be honest... Yo what the fuck Telltale.
Yeah he definitely did lie and I don't think it was self-defense. I do think he snapped and maybe he's even a bit of a pathological liar. Truth be told when I first played and I was hearing him go, 'what am I gonna tell Bruce?' and stuff, I didn't notice the agent bodies and just saw the blood. I thought maybe he snapped and killed Harley. Which would have been better because I was all 'NO WAY!' I thought maybe he lost it because of her betrayal and she just made it worse or something. But it wasn't her, sadly. It was just agents so I was all 'oh... well... okay. Not as intense but still, damn.' But the whole scene was great and I really loved it. This whole episode I pretty much loved every interaction with each character. The entire season so far has been so amazing.
Well, I belive that Harley has somehow made that split personality on John, and maybe John knows that at some level. Because the way he "loves" Harley in this universe is a reversal from their typical roles of abuse and manipulation. In the normal universe he is the one who manipulates Harley into loving him, in this one is the other way around. But he cares about Bruce more. His actions speak louder than his words. I think that Harley has coerced John into loving her, just as much as he has done in the main universe. He breaks her emotionally and mentally and drives her insane, Harley may have done the same here. To Harley he is just a "toy" she says so herself and runs away without caring much for John's emotions.
John has a problem with rejection, he snaps with just any small negativity he gets from the person he cares about, he gets paranoid and agressive. He may have "snaped" and killed the guards, when he saw that Harley was gone. And he gets paranoid when he sees Bruce. He is very different from the calm and calculating individual we find in Season One, maybe is during this time that he meets Harley, but the timing dosen't fit completely. Maybe he met Bruce first and then he met Harley.
No.