worried for john
after i completed episode 4 i returned to the batcave and an extra momento stand has been added so by the looks of it even as a vigalante hes gonna get defeated ???? i really hope we can this season with john becoming batmans like red hood cause i dont want him to be the villain in mine i hope the main villain is determinant joker (villain path) or waller (vigalante path).
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Maybe John will live on this stand. He will climb on it and sleep during the day. And when do vigilante stuff during the night. Helping Batman throw batarangs, killing off criminals.
I don't think so. He's a vigilante now sure, but the bad kind. So you'll hafta take him down in either case.
He set off explosions on the bridge potentially killing people and brutally stabbed Waller there is no way he is a good guy. He was preaching before he jumped off the bridge about him and Batman saving the city but Batman would never do something like that which was basically terrorism. Waller will still very much be a "good guy" in the next episode she just takes a hard line and does whatever she thinks is necessary for the greater good. She clearly wants to form a Suicide Squad and wanted the virus/riddlers blood to do it, anyway she kindly asked for the virus from Joker but he refused. He is still insane and a mental patient who belongs in an asylum so there was no way she would allow him to keep it. Waller represents the government and authority which Batman isn't going to fight cause that would make Batman a villain in the eyes of the media/government.
Who said John wanted to keep it? I 100% believe that John would have handed it over if it had been Bruce who asked. Look at the codex after the game. Bruce clearly blames Waller for what happened in the vigilante ending.
Doesn't equal Bruce fighting Waller instead of Joker imo. I think the artwork for episode 5 in the game says it all really and Joker clearly demonstrated how unstable he is by setting off the bombs plus stabbing Waller.
The Punisher does much worse than John did in that scene and is still considered a hero. Don't see why John can' get the same treatment.
The Punisher punishes criminals. Joker stabs a government agent which honestly could be fatal if this weren't a game then just set off explosives injuring cops and government agents. Finally he jumps off the bridge with an insane laugh leaving Bruce standing there concerned. Big difference between Punisher and Joker is that Punisher isn't completely insane, Batman will need to stop Joker now cause his Vigilante methods will be criminal in nature. Hell Batman even tries to stop Red Hood who only kills criminals.
Have you watched the Punisher tv shows/movies or read any of his comic books? He often kills without care of innocent bystanders getting hurt or killed along the way as long as he gets his target and often kills someone who may be innocent just as long as he thinks they’re guilty. Many other superheroes consider the Punisher to be quite insane.
Can we stick the the story at hand? Why are we even discussing The Punisher?
Have he been confirmed to be in Telltales Batman?
No.
We cant compare John to The Punisher since technically he does not exist.
I disagree. How John is treated as a vigilante has a lot of comparisons to the Punisher. The Punisher is a guy who kills without regards for innocent human life. Yet he’s still considered a hero. What’s good for one character should be good for another.
Not the same world so still not relevant. Cant compare them both.
If you tried to compare characters in this story that we are discussing then fine, but you are not.
But the stand isn't lit up like the others. Maybe our interactions with John in Episodd 5 determines what happens to him.
hopefully i know he isnt good but i would like him to be like red hood only kills those who deserve it i hope in the vigilante route you can join john in fighting the agency cause i know the ep 5 screen shows them fighting each other but tales from the borderlands finale screen shows rhys and fiona in a stand off but they dont end up fighting.
Most likely we will be able to group up with.
I don't think, that He should be compared to the Punisher or RedHood, I would say that He might become more like the Executioner [The Old Earth-2 character, not the abomination from "Gotham"], and considering Executioner's carnival background.. I could even bet some money on that.
Quote from DC wikia:
"Willy Hooker was a carnival worker who used the identity of the Executioner to murder wanted criminals and claim the reward. Hooker was in fact the man responsible for breaking the criminals out of jail in the first place and later he would kill them. His activities were discovered by Batman and Robin, who captured Hooker and stopped his criminal racket."
I'd say anyone killing innocent people whether it be the Punisher or the Joker suck. ...That being said I still loved John. For a psycho he was just so damn lovable and I couldn't help myself.
But I was still gonna turn him in once he dealt with Harley, but Waller screwed it up. Stupid Waller. I totally called her being the bad guy. I just knew it. In agreement with @AnimalBoy on it being Waller's fault and its hard to garner sympathy for someone who got stabbed by the person they tried killing just moments ago.
Can't play victim when your the one that started it, yah know?
And while he did kill her agents she wasn't aware of that. So it doesn't justify her actions that she pulled a gun on John who had just helped save people. She got greedy and impatient and wanted the serum, innocent bystanders be damned.
Well if we seriously believe John is telling the truth about the agents attacking him first, in his warped mind he is doing good by hurting them. For him The Agency really is bad, but he doesn't have the same moral barometer Batman does, and he'll do anything to stop them. I think John really does see himself as the good guy with the way he tells Waller "no one should have this virus. Especially not you!" John is actually learning right from wrong, and wants to be good in a vigilante ending. But unlike Batman he doesn't really have a code to follow. I kinda think John is the actual "Enemy Within".
John honestly has me conflicted. His reaction to killing the agents and the fact his story wasn't straight made it hard for me to trust him but I want to redeem him because I feel he can still be saved.
I have a hard time believing it was self-defense. My theory is John found Harley there and the agency followed him went in and possibly fired at Harley and John went berserk and killed them while Harley bailed.
I might've believed him if it hadn't been for that agent with the bullet in the back or that John was like 'oh no, what am I gonna tell Bruce?' And proceeds to talk about self-defense like its a fabricated story.
The panic, however, does suggest that it was unintentional and that he lost control and clearly needs to go back to Arkham. ...I loved that whole scene.
John doesn't get to learn that now, he's a grown up. He's not a dog you can train, is not some sort of "Oh look Bruce I killed all those people" "- No, bad John, BAD JOHN!" and he learns to be good.
The thing is I believe people are putting too much on John. Is he mentally unstable? Yes. A criminal? Yes. Is he a murderer as of the bridge fiasco? Possibly with a vigilante ending, definitely with a villain ending. But people seem to gloss over the fact Waller was being positioned as a Big Bad for this entire episode, and if she hadn't attempted to shoot John during the vigilante ending I'd say chances are pretty high Bruce could've talked John into handing the virus over. In the codex for the vigilante ending Bruce even blames Waller for the way John reacted. I don't see things ending well for John regardless, but I think his heart is in the right place.
Catwoman has a stand in the batcave regardless of if you romance her, don't romance her, and/or choose to end the first season as friends or enemies. So John having a stand doesn't necessarily mean Bruce is going to have to defeat him.
Waller... agh! I knew she was either incompetent at her job or deliberately screwing up when it came down to things like letting the pact have Riddler's body. She needs to be taken down just as badly as the pact needed to be.
I have hope for the vigilante John. Waller's the one that messed it all up, she literally tried to shoot him in the face, after he helped them. And I don't think The Agency should have the virus either. John doesn't like the voice in his head and wants to be good, it's possible for him to learn and have guidance. Well, that's what I'm obviously hoping for. The impulses though.. Yeah I'm worried, but I'm waiting for that serious talk with Bruce. How likely is all this honestly, I'm still blown away by ep 4. Cautious optimism I guess. Some say John can't be good or like this or like that, when he already is the villain if you want him to be. Nobody can say what John can become in the vigilante route. Well, whatever happens I hope it's immensely different.
I bet He will still have to somewhat answer for killing all these agents, so I don't expect a happy ending for Him. He needs help, but I don't think, that Bruce's guidence could be enough to undo the damage inflicted by the mental illnes. If anything like that happens, I think, that at most we might get a similiar situation to the one in which Harvey was in previous season - we might be able to somehow point Him in the right direction, but at the end of the day, He will still end up in Prison or most likely Arkham.
Agreed and its really how it should go. I personally don't want John free after killing those agents and blowing up the bridge when he could have simply jumped off it without blowing it up.
Also Bruce really isn't the right person to help John. Its good that he's there as a supportive friend, but... I mean, let's be real, he's a bad influence whether he means to be or not. Sure he put Johns heart in the right place, but the very fact that he's a vigilante led John astray. And how is Bruce going to explain to John what he's doing isn't right without John being all 'that's hypocrisy' or 'so it's your way or the highway, huh? Well I only got my way'
Personally I would love for telltale to push us into a truly devastating situation where we're given little to no choice but to end him by either breaking trust or code. The best stories are the ones that make yah cry after all.
With the villain route I could totally see TT doing something like John puts Bruce through hell, then something bad happens to Harley and John tries to jump off a building or something, Bruce catches him then John stabs him or something and Bruce catches him again then John's all like "WHY WONT YOU LET ME FALL!?" and Bruce has the option to say "Because you're my friend John!" I wouldn't be able to keep the tears back tbqh.
...I don't know how I would feel about the whole stab thing but I could see how that'd be kinda sad.
What?...
That. That right there was my first reaction. I really had to think it over. lol. Cause... you know... if he stabbed you... yeah......
Stabbing just seems like something Villain John would do, I dunno.
Yes, yes it does. I just think I'd be way to tempted to drop his a$$ if he did that.
Something
The last thing I want to see is Harvey 2.0, that would be the worst. I know we're probably going to have to take him down eventually, hoping we're not since that podium isn't lit in the Batcave, maybe that's just for show though don't know. But I hope it's going to be more complex than that, that we would get to keep some of the relationship we've built, because it's been the best thing this season.
Someone has aalready mentined this, but the podium means nothing here. If catwoman can have one, so can John.
i know people think hes gonna be the villain no matter what , i actually dont believe it cause telltale so many options of siding with him no matter what like i believe ep 5s gonna start with waller arresting bruce in the vigalante route and john saves bruce.
If we're going to compare him to anyone I think it should be Harvey Dent. They're both friends with Bruce, they've blew up things for their own agenda, they're both crazy, and also John was talking to himself at the Funhouse exactly like Harvey does.
The differences being John is still our friend and doesn't want to hurt us (if you chose vigilante path). Which will make it harder to take him down. Also, Harvey is more for Order & Joker is Chaos.
I wish there was a silver lining here, but Batman is definitely taking him down in the next episode. Friend or foe.
Am I the only one who doesn’t want to stop John? I mean, I know we have to, regardless of villain or vigilante, but still, he’s my Bff, I don’t wanna give up on him.
I really don't get this. John is a murderer and a psychopath. In both endings. He deserves life prison. I fail to see how you can feel sorry for him and wish for him to remain free when you have looked at the bodies of the people he murdered. Not as sorry for them?
I don't want to stop him, I approve his decision to go after agency, I'm just worried he's gonna kill a bunch of innocent ppl along.
When he'll force Batman and everyone else to put him down one way or another.
But I was thinking, for now first step of his transformation was triggered by our trust or distrust.
BUT. We didn't do all those violent/non violent choices for nothing, right? Willie, Bullock, etc.
I think based on our decisons, in the 5 episode he might split again on 4 versions, violent or non violent villain/vigilante.
I have some hope for non violent vigilante. If it works, might be actually something new. Better than Jokester for sure. =/ At least, I hope so.