Atheism hasn't caused any damage at all, whereas religion has led to the slaughter of millions over history. Sure, it may help some people, but it's death for everyone else.
Atheism hasn't caused any damage at all, whereas religion has led to the slaughter of millions over history. Sure, it may help some people, but it's death for everyone else.
No, xenophobia, reactionary resistance to cultural tides, and lust for power has led to that slaughter, regardless of what God's name was on the banner.
Hitler wasn't religious. He justified what he did to a nation with his own crazy promises that might parallel religious thinking but never invoked religion, and people bought it and millions died.
Nihilism has been used to justify many crimes. People use atheism as a stupid excuse to shirk morality. This tendency is probably what led to religion in the first place. You act like scared, stupid, misanthropes were made that way by religion, and they weren't.
Yeah, but religion is the cause behind the majority of wars. Look at india, the middle east, heck even europe. Religious extremists have been killing millions of people.
Although I don't think Hitler represents the majority of atheists. Was he even atheist?
Another thing to note is that heaps of surveys have been run, and generally the smarter you are, the less likely you are to be religious. Out of all the nobel prize winners, only 4 weren't openly atheist, and those 4 simply refused to comment on their beliefs (perfectly reasonable), so it's pretty staggerring.
The number of atheists is on the rise, there are more atheists in America then there are religious jews. You just don't hear about it because there isn't a united group of atheists.
I predict, that in another 2000 years, the number of religious people will be quite small, just because people are becoming more educated over the years. Just because there's no proof for religion, and it's such a far fetched concept.
And you can be atheist and have morals. God doesn't give you morals. They're part of who you are. No religion required.
Yeah, but religion is the cause behind the majority of wars. Look at india, the middle east, heck even europe. Religious extremists have been killing millions of people.
Do you really think that those that can be swayed by means of manipulated religion would be swayed by other means? Large masses of people are moved by those things that they share to define themselves as a group. Whether that thing is religion, nationhood, racism, a core moral value, a distinct culture, racial identity. If a mass of people see it as important, then someone will use it for political or financial purposes, to push their own agenda. People will use anything and have used anything that links a large group to manipulate them.
Although I don't think Hitler represents the majority of atheists. Was he even atheist?
Woah, do you think the 9/11 bombers represent the majority of Muslims?! That Westboro represents the majority of Christians?!
The example is not completely the best one, because Hitler and the Nazi party have a very complex connection to religion that is buried in double-talk and propaganda. Whatever the case, the contradictory religious views expressed or used by the party don't tend to be a unified message, and don't seem to be the point under which the German nation generally rallied. It was more a system of nationhood, of getting back at the world, of reclaiming a lost, opulent, Golden Age of Germany.
Another thing to note is that heaps of surveys have been run, and generally the smarter you are, the less likely you are to be religious. Out of all the nobel prize winners, only 4 weren't openly atheist, and those 4 simply refused to comment on their beliefs (perfectly reasonable), so it's pretty staggerring.
I never trust the Nobel Prize. Though it many people that obtain it DO deserve it, it has been used since its inception for political purposes. Whether or not these political purposes are just or not isn't what is being argued right now, but its use as an impartial judge of humanity's greatest achievements. While the political bias is most obvious in their literature prize category, it says something about the ideals governing the Nobel Prize Committee.
The number of atheists is on the rise, there are more atheists in America then there are religious jews. You just don't hear about it because there isn't a united group of atheists.
It's actually kind of iffy, whether or not it is rising. One issue is that generally religious societies do have a larger birth rate, so even if numbers are rising, percentages overall probably drop. A lack of religion is far less easy to categorize than religion itself, or at least just as difficult.
I predict, that in another 2000 years, the number of religious people will be quite small, just because people are becoming more educated over the years. Just because there's no proof for religion, and it's such a far fetched concept.
I really don't think you need to look far to see that a lot of people aren't getting actually educated, many times of their own free will rather than a lack of information.
People will always want to have a greater meaning in their life. It seems ingrained in human thought from the beginning, when all of nature was interpreted as divine force. People will seek higher meaning, and I'm certain a large portion of them will personify this in the form of a divine being, spirit, set of divine beings, and/or spirits.
And you can be atheist and have morals. God doesn't give you morals. They're part of who you are. No religion required.
Ah, but that was never argued. The argument was that there are those who use atheism to defy morality. This is mostly the case with "Teen Philosophy", the kid who just discovered Nietzsche and decides to rebel against their parents' or society's religious views, for the purpose of rebellion and justifying their own behavior rather than an actually personal belief in real Nietzsche philosophy. Ayn Rand is another popular choice.
There are actually some people I know who'd have killed themselves had it not been for religion.
That's why I think that religion should not be the whole "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything.", but rather not as public. Religion is important, though I hope we manage to weed out religions like Islam and Christianity. Even Hinduism's Karma philosophies are good - they say what you do is what you get. They also say that there's no need to tell anyone about this, because they'll get what they deserve as a person. It's harmless.
Yeah, but religion is the cause behind the majority of wars. Look at india, the middle east, heck even europe. Religious extremists have been killing millions of people.
But religion is just an excuse that they use to project all their fears about the fact that their world is becoming more westernized, the fact that they're territorial, and many variations of "I don't like them because they're different" that have nothing to do with religion.
This is a lot more consistent than attributing it to religion alone. In Rwanda the Hutus and the Tutsis fight over distinctions that were doled out arbitrarily by the colonials. People will just hate anyone they determine are different. It's not religion's fault, it's people's.
Although I don't think Hitler represents the majority of atheists. Was he even atheist?
He represented enough people to be democratically elected, so that should say something. You're just using religion as a scapegoat.
And you can be atheist and have morals. God doesn't give you morals. They're part of who you are. No religion required.
I understand this. I'm an atheist and I've spent a lot of time studying ethics. But the fact is, some people do not understand this, and they'll conclude that because there is no Space Being to punish them, they can do whatever they want. They're stupid, but they're still comitting crimes in the name of atheism.
There are actually some people I know who'd have killed themselves had it not been for religion.
That's why I think that religion should not be the whole "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything.", but rather not as public. Religion is important, though I hope we manage to weed out religions like Islam and Christianity. Even Hinduism's Karma philosophies are good - they say what you do is what you get. They also say that there's no need to tell anyone about this, because they'll get what they deserve as a person. It's harmless.
In the Islamic faith, they kill Christians. Being a christian, we aren't called to kill people for not believing. We are called to LOVE everyone. Why should a religion that is all about loving and obeying the one true creator, and loving each other be weeded out?
With GOD what you do, is what you get. Listen to HIM, obey HIS commands, and just love HIM and everyone else, you get to spend an eternity in heaven.(If you truly believe it with all your heart.)
Choose to live for yourself and indulge in the pleasures of this world, you go to hell. Its not Christianity that's destroying this world....Its people.
GALATIANS 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
About that thing you said "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything." Christians aren't called to cram GOD down your throat. All we are doing is simply sharing GODs word with those of you who haven't heard it yet. if you don't believe....so be it I'm not going to threaten to chop your head off, but rather I'm going to love you just as GOD commands. And if you wish to hear more about GOD I will gladly share some more
About that thing you said "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything." Christians aren't called to cram GOD down your throat. All we are doing is simply sharing GODs word with those of you who haven't heard it yet. if you don't believe....so be it I'm not going to threaten to chop your head off, but rather I'm going to love you just as GOD commands. And if you wish to hear more about GOD I will gladly share some more
It's a shame that Christians expect others to listen to their preaching with an open mind, but they're not willing to extend the same courtesy to others. Every evangelist I've ever talked to has run out of steam after about two questions. There doesn't seem to be a mutual discourse. "We're allowed to be closed-minded, God gave us permission."
Doesn't make them bad people, but it does engender resentment. You've been tripping over your own words and contradicting yourself. You stopped responding to me, and now you're acting like anyone will care what you have to say about the bible. You don't help your cause when you refuse to treat people like equals.
I say that not to judge you, but as a bit of advice if you truly want to spread the word of Christ. You can't just throw around Bible quotes, you need to ask questions so you can answer them when others come to you or else you'll just turn people away from God.
you get to spend an eternity in heaven.(If you truly believe it with all your heart.)
See, this is where we enter brainwashing territory. It's the notion that, even if you do as God says, you might not go to heaven because you didn't "believe with all your heart." This means you're not even allowed to ask questions or examine the situation to determine if it's true, or indeed to talk to anyone outside of your faith on equal terms. That's a dangerous mentality.
Doubt is not a sin, it's the human condition. Even Abraham, though he persevered, had doubt. You're allowed to ask questions.
You know how sometimes you'll see "IHS" on a gravestone? You know how people claim it means "In His Service"? Do you know what "In hoc signo vinces" means? Christians have a long history of conquering and killing in the name of god. Whether or not you believe in killing people for the bible isn't the point, the point is people have killed for it numerous times before.
In the Islamic faith, they kill Christians. Being a christian, we aren't called to kill people for not believing. We are called to LOVE everyone. Why should a religion that is all about loving and obeying the one true creator, and loving each other be weeded out?
Time to call bullshit.
For all of my quotations, I will use the King James Version of the Bible. I'll cite the book, chapter, and verse so that you may check validity with your Bible of choice.
The King James translation is actually far kinder with its language than other translations, if only in some cases because it uses far less contemporary wording. I'll also stray from parables if I can, sticking to strict commandments, orders, and alleged historical events.
These quotations are generally in no particular order. Please respond if you have any issue with the organization, accuracy, or legitimacy of my selected quotations.
Deuteronomy 13:6-16
6.If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7.Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
9.But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10.And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11.And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14.Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16.And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
2If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3.And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Exodus 22:18
18.Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:20
20.He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Psalm 14:1-3
1.The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2.The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3.They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Exodus 21:20-21
20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
((Basically, if your slave doesn't die within two days from your beating, you're fine in the eyes of God, because the slave is your property))
Just want to say the universe can't be infinite. If it were infinite, then 'motion' would have no beginning, because it too would be infinite. If motion is infinite, and nothing initiated motion, then every motion would be moving at the same time in relation to each other.
If everything is moving at the same time, then there is really nothing moving at all because it's all in relation to each other and there is nothing to distinguish the motion.
There must be something that initiated 'motion' and life, because life is an example of motion. That something is considered God.
If the universe is finite, and there was a beginning, then there must be something (God) that initiated the beginning.
If nothing initiated the beginning of the universe, and nothing existed before the universe existed, then nothing must exist right now.
How could something exist out of nothing? You would have to be God to be able to do that.
On a personal note I don't worship God, I don't think that's his point.
Doesn't make them bad people, but it does engender resentment. You've been tripping over your own words and contradicting yourself. You stopped responding to me, and now you're acting like anyone will care what you have to say about the bible. You don't help your cause when you refuse to treat people like equals.
I say that not to judge you, but as a bit of advice if you truly want to spread the word of Christ. You can't just throw around Bible quotes, you need to ask questions so you can answer them when others come to you or else you'll just turn people away from God.
JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
It doesn't matter what my own words say cause no matter what my own words are...its not going to help you believe. It is only through GODs word that you will find salvation. Which is why GOD wants us to spread HIS word, not ours. so that's why i use so many verses from the bible. because nothing i say will help.
you said im acting like anyone will care. most unbelievers wont care but its not my job to choose who to share GODs word with its GODs.
I feel as if this has become more of an argument, and that's not how it should be. I truly am sorry if i have upset anyone over the course of my posts. I assure you i have not posting anything that wasn't out of love for all of you.
There must be something that initiated 'motion' and life, because life is an example of motion. That something is considered God.
This is called the "prime mover" argument. It was originally proposed by Aristotle (perhaps a bit strangely, since he proceeded to determine from star charts that there were like 27 gods) and then later by Thomas Aquinas, and I think some version of it could be said to be true, but it's often misapplied.
I think that versions of this argument involving time are problematic, because they suppose a simplistic notion of time that might not work, and then exclude the possibility of circular time.
Basically a working version version of the argument could be formulated thus:
Every explaination must invoke an accepted law. Thus, there must be some prime law that cannot be broken down further.
The problems with this are:
1) It does not suppose a single root cause. This is something people have tried to do with the argument, but the fact is, there may be 24 fundamental laws that give order to the universe, none of which can be broken down any further. There's no reason it has to be one.
2) This prime lawgiver or lawgivers are not sufficient to meet any definition of God. While they might be properties we assign to God, "being the root of everything" does not automatically equal "God." This is the problem I talked about before where people will simply adjust the meaning of God to fit something they can justify, rather than to justify any fixed meaning of God.
Yea, I basically took those arguments from Aquinas' 5 reasons why God must exist, and the "ultimate mover" arguments were in my mind. (I'm a philosophy major, I just changed over from mathematics. Either way the job market doesn't look very pretty, but philosophy is a real good segueway into law school which is what I'm aiming for.)
You're definitely right, it doesn't necessarily have to be one law or "God" and it doesn't necessarily fit into the perception that people generally have of God.
But God is ultimately a personal understanding, similar to beauty.
Some guys like brunettes, some like blondes, but there is never a way to prove whether blonde or brunette is more beautiful because there is no point.
What difference does it make if your neighbor likes blondes when you think there's nothing sexier than brunettes.
Even if you change your mind of beauty simply because of neighbor envy (grass is always greener), it still doesn't mean that you don't understand beauty. It just means your idea of beauty is a little social.
It doesn't matter what my own words say cause no matter what my own words are...its not going to help you believe. It is only through GODs word that you will find salvation. Which is why GOD wants us to spread HIS word, not ours. so that's why i use so many verses from the bible. because nothing i say will help.
I've read God's word, or at least studied a good portion of it. From the Biblical source, God is an asshole. He supports slavery, sexual slavery, warfare, the condemning of an innocent person for the crimes of a guilty person, condemning those who do not have faith in him to eternal suffering(a nasty scare tactic that your chosen Bible verse supports), hatred for those that do not worship him, the DEATHS of those that don't worship him, the marginalization and subjugation of women, and many other such things that I could mention.
Why does this book have value? Why should I take what it has to say at face value? Why should I ignore the less pleasant bits? Why should I ignore that American Christianity is mainly made up of those who simply choose what portions of the Bible "Count", while ignoring the sections that condone and explain the rules for owning and beating slaves?
(I'm a philosophy major, I just changed over from mathematics. Either way the job market doesn't look very pretty, but philosophy is a real good segueway into law school which is what I'm aiming for.)
Don't worry about it. For most of the jobs out there, it matters more that you graduated with some degree and have meaningful work experience than your specific major does (unless you want to be in the sciences or medicine, of course). I was a philosophy major, now I'm a writer. Screw English and Journalism, it didn't matter.
But God is ultimately a personal understanding, similar to beauty.
But the interesting thing is that beauty, while subjective, has a single concept regardless. God, on the other hand, is applied to things as disparate as the laws of physics and an emotion inside of people. There's almost nothing that can universally be said of God.
If I have a dog and I name him God, that doesn't necessarily mean that I proved God exists, you know? It's cheating.
I've read God's word, or at least studied a good portion of it. From the Biblical source, God is an asshole. He supports slavery, sexual slavery, warfare, the condemning of an innocent person for the crimes of a guilty person, condemning those who do not have faith in him to eternal suffering(a nasty scare tactic that your chosen Bible verse supports), hatred for those that do not worship him, the DEATHS of those that don't worship him, the marginalization and subjugation of women, and many other such things that I could mention.
You know, it's rarely addressed, because the concept is blasphemous, but God as a character is kind of interesting. He actually undergoes meaningful character development throughout the course of the bible. Early on he's curious and temperamental. He's much like a child that builds a tower of blocks and then angrily knocks it down, and then feels bad about it. Later on he mellows out a bit, but he's still obsessed with authority. Then, in Exodus he gets angry about the Golden Calf and actually talks things over with Moses who convinces him not to smite everyone. By the time the New Testament rolls around, God is older and wiser, and understands concepts like forgiveness.
The bible is an interesting piece of literature if you step back from the premise of actual heavenly authority.
Time to call bullshit.
For all of my quotations, I will use the King James Version of the Bible. I'll cite the book, chapter, and verse so that you may check validity with your Bible of choice.
The King James translation is actually far kinder with its language than other translations, if only in some cases because it uses far less contemporary wording. I'll also stray from parables if I can, sticking to strict commandments, orders, and alleged historical events.
These quotations are generally in no particular order. Please respond if you have any issue with the organization, accuracy, or legitimacy of my selected quotations.
Deuteronomy 13:6-16
6.If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7.Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
9.But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10.And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11.And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14.Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16.And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
2If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3.And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
I found this on a website called Godandscience.org. I will post the link at the bottom of my post, and i think its a pretty good answer, but here is what it said.
The God in the Old Testament seems to have many personalities; cruel, unjust, kind, loving, etc."1 There are, however, two major areas which we humans have a difficult time reconciling - God's love vs. God's righteousness. God is loving, but God's love requires God's justice. As I discipline my three children when they disobey, God disciplines us if we don't meet His requirements. The problem for us is that we cannot keep all of God's laws because of our selfishness and self-centeredness.2 God would have been completely just and loving in destroying all of us for our disobedience to Him. It is only through His extraordinary love and grace that we are allowed into His presence.
Atrocities by God?
If you were to read atheist's websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, such as Jericho, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. How could a loving God command the destruction of all those "innocent" people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)
Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)
The wickedness of these people is confirmed in other verses of the Bible.3 So we see that these people are not quite as innocent as the atheists would like you to believe. Then again, maybe those atheists believe that killing your children is not all bad. After all, killing viable pre-born babies is legal in this country (it's called a choice, a.k.a. abortion). For these reasons (and others4), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.
Did God kill any innocent people along with the evil ones? When God was about to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the cities if there were 50 righteous people in them.5 God said no. Then Abraham asked the same question if there were 45 righteous people. Every time he dropped the number and got the same answer. The fact is that God would not have destroyed those cities if there were any righteous people in them. The few righteous who were in those cities He warned ahead of time to get out.6 So, God does not destroy the righteous along with the evil.
God's judgment of people groups found in the Old Testament actually pales in comparison to the judgment He will render at the end of time. According to the New Testament Book of Revelation, God will judge and kill billions of people who reject Him when Jesus returns, including 200 million killed in a single battle.7 Such large armies have never existed in the history of mankind until the last 100 years, suggesting the this judgment could come at any time.
Conclusion Top of page
In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin - everything that goes against His character. If God let everyone into heaven, then He would have to allow in people such as Stalin and Hitler. Obviously, heaven would not be a good place to be with the likes of those people there. Therefore, God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin. Only those people who agree with God and are willing to allow themselves to be changed into sinless beings can enter into heaven. For information on how to do this,
The people he killed were not innocent...they were wicked. "for EVERY ABOMINABLE act which the LORD HATES they have done for their gods" and he gave warning to the righteous to leave so they would remain unharmed.
The people he killed were not innocent...they were wicked.
Or just disobedient. The bible conveniently makes no distinction between the two, but God behaves in ways that are clearly arbitrary and cruel for the sake of being an alpha dog. For Lot's wife, her "sin" was as simple as observing. In the case of Jobe, the people around him were made to suffer because of what amounted to a bar bet between him and Satan. You can't really justify these as just retribution. God treats humans like his toys for much of the bible.
But the fact that God has "Changed" itself is a ridiculous concept. You can't say God is perfect and eternal, but that he has mood swings from millennium to millennium.
Or just disobedient. The bible conveniently makes no distinction between the two, but God behaves in ways that are clearly arbitrary and cruel for the sake of being an alpha dog. For Lot's wife, her "sin" was as simple as observing. In the case of Jobe, the people around him were made to suffer because of what amounted to a bar bet between him and Satan. You can't really justify these as just retribution. God treats humans like his toys for much of the bible.
But the fact that God has "Changed" itself is a ridiculous concept. You can't say God is perfect and eternal, but that he has mood swings from millennium to millennium.
HE calls them wicked...not disobedient. They did EVERYTHING HE hates. murder, sleeping with multiple women, worshiping false idols( even sacrificing there children to those idols.) anything bad you can think of they have done it. Because like i said before, they did EVERYTHING HE hates.
GALATIANS 6:7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
HE calls them wicked...not disobedient. They did EVERYTHING HE hates. murder, sleeping with multiple women, worshiping false idols( even sacrificing there children to those idols.) anything bad you can think of they have done it. Because like i said before, they did EVERYTHING HE hates.
GALATIANS 6:7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I'm getting really impatient with you. Read past the first two sentences so you actually know which people I'm referring to before you decide to tell me what they did wrong. Lot's wife and Job's sons did NONE of those things. Lot's wife was righteous. Meanwhile Lot was saved so he could get drunk and have sex with his daughters.
I'm beginning to think you don't know anything about the bible at all. And you also don't address the bigger question of why a perfect and eternal being would behave so differently now than back then.
You do realize that mankind is responsible for sin right. GOD gave mankind free will and they decided to eat of the of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and thus sin was born. sure they may have been righteous, but anyone can and will fall short of the glory of GOD.
GENESIS 19:15 "And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed."
Lot’s wife "looked back" (the phrase might even be rendered "returned back" or "lagged back") seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom. Sodom was a filthy cesspool of sin, and the fact that GOD was saving them from that, but the fact that she still longed for that life was what did it.
As for Job very sad story. you seem to have read this story. and as you may know Satan spoke to GOD saying and GOD was telling satan about his amazing follower Job. And this is what was said.
JOB 1:9-11 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
And the LORD responded.
JOB 1:12 All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.
So satan killed Jobs family, and Job responded with.
JOB 1:21 I came naked form my mothers womb,
and I will be stripped of everything when i die.
The LORD gave me everything I had,
and the LORD has taken it away.
Praise the name of the LORD!
GOD allowed this to happen to prove satan wrong. Cause he was so sure that Job would crumble and denounce GOD, but he was wrong.
Then there was the second test. where satan said.
JOB 2:4-5 Satan replied to the Lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
And the LORD responded with.
JOB 2:6 All right, do with him as you please,” the Lord said to Satan. “But spare his life.
JOB2:7-10 So Satan left the Lord’s presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes. His wife said to him, “Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.” But Job replied, “You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?” So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.
because of how long the book of JOB is I'm going to just give a summery of what happens next. Basically Jobs friends came to comfort him in his sickness and they didn't speak for 7 days because they felt he was in to much pain to speak. and in this time Job became angry and started asking how GOD could do this to him. and they had long conversations going back and forth between Job and his friends. and then after the conversations GOD answered Job. (because these are very long verses i will just post where you can look them up.)
JOB chapter 48
JOB chapter 49
JOB 40:1-2 Then the LORD said to Job, "Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are GOD's critic, but do you have the answers?"
JOB 40:3-5 Then Job replied to the Lord,“I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers? I will cover my mouth with my hand. I have said too much already. I have nothing more to say.
and GOD went on with more examples of his power.
JOB 42:1-6 Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do anything,and no one can stop you.You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’ It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about, things far too wonderful for me. You said, ‘Listen and I will speak! I have some questions for you, and you must answer them.’ I had only heard about you before, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. I take back everything I said, and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance.”
and GOD forgave Job and gave him a new family with even more sons and daughters and live stock
JOB 42: 16-17 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life.
Lot’s wife "looked back" (the phrase might even be rendered "returned back" or "lagged back") seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom. Sodom was a filthy cesspool of sin, and the fact that GOD was saving them from that, but the fact that she still longed for that life was what did it.
Right, so she had her home built to the ground and dared to feel some human pangs of regret and thus was murdered in cold blood by God for having the insolence to disobey an arbitrary proclamation.
I never said she was perfect, but it's not a very good reason to kill someone.
GOD allowed this to happen to prove satan wrong. Cause he was so sure that Job would crumble and denounce GOD, but he was wrong.
God has no reason to prove anything to Satan. He murdered innocent people to prove a point to one of his subservient underlings? (bear in mind that Satan of the Old Testament is not "Anti-God" who rules over hell, but merely an angel subservient to God).
and GOD forgave Job and gave him a new family with even more sons and daughters and live stock
Oh, I'm sure that made it all better. Nevermind that his children were murdered for no reason. Since the story is about Job and not the kid, they're treated in the same manner as livestock; replaceable commodities.
Another example: In Exodus, the final plague is the death of the first born sons of all of Egypt. God acknowledges that many of these are innocent children of God, and orders his angels not to celebrate their loss. So this is a clear-cut indisputable example of God killing people who do not deserve it, simply to prove a point to Pharaoh.
Meanwhile, God could have just blinked the Jews into freedom, because he's all-powerful, but he thought it would be more dramatic if he killed a bunch of dudes and drowned some people in the sea. I guess he was thinking ahead to the inevitable movie deal, right?
So this have became an atheist vs God believer thread?
Really there's no reason to fight. If God didn't exist atheist would be right and there would be harm to no one. If He exists then it doesn't harm atheists. But if God didn't exist then our existance would be more sad and pathetical with no search of a greater knowledge or better life beyond our comprehension.
Just because we can't understand or don't think it is logical that God exists it is true.
Maybe we have a limited idea of God. God is not an old man in the skies. Maybe God is the universe and all energy within it. So in that sense God=universe then God=omnipresent.
That why I think it is strange to consider all well designed creation is not interconected and the result of an intelligent design. Even if it may seem less than perfect all creation has it function in the universe. Just because a drawing that you made seems less perfect than you (its creator) it mean that it has not been created by you.
I think that whatever view we have we must respect opposite ones, at least until some is proved wrong, which probably will take a long time. Until then it is good to discuss these matters respectfully and try to have an open mind.
So this have became an atheist vs God believer thread?
No, not really. Notice I've been defending religion a lot in this thread, but I think jhuddy is making some very flawed points and I'm attacking the logic of those points. I would do the same if he was an athiest making bad, self-contradictory points.
Right, so she had her home built to the ground and dared to feel some human pangs of regret and thus was murdered in cold blood by God for having the insolence to disobey an arbitrary proclamation.
I never said she was perfect, but it's not a very good reason to kill someone.
God has no reason to prove anything to Satan. He murdered innocent people to prove a point to one of his subservient underlings? (bear in mind that Satan of the Old Testament is not "Anti-God" who rules over hell, but merely an angel subservient to God).
Oh, I'm sure that made it all better. Nevermind that his children were murdered for no reason. Since the story is about Job and not the kid, they're treated in the same manner as livestock; replaceable commodities.
Another example: In Exodus, the final plague is the death of the first born sons of all of Egypt. God acknowledges that many of these are innocent children of God, and orders his angels not to celebrate their loss. So this is a clear-cut indisputable example of God killing people who do not deserve it, simply to prove a point to Pharaoh.
Meanwhile, God could have just blinked the Jews into freedom, because he's all-powerful, but he thought it would be more dramatic if he killed a bunch of dudes and drowned some people in the sea. I guess he was thinking ahead to the inevitable movie deal, right?
In my post i referred to JOB chapters 48 and 49 but i actually meant JOB chapters 38 and 39. I apologize for the mis-reference. But if you read those, you would understand that NO ONE can understand GOD's will. It is far to complex for anyone to comprehend. so although you think he is doing these "bad" things to people, just remember, NO ONE knows his plans for people. Who are we to question our creator?
But if you read those, you would understand that NO ONE can understand GOD's will. It is far to complex for anyone to comprehend. so although you think he is doing these "bad" things to people, just remember, NO ONE knows his plans for people. Who are we to question our creator?
I can't stand religion for precisely this reason. Doesn't make sense? STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, ACCEPT IT AND PRETEND IT MAKES SENSE.
No, not really. Notice I've been defending religion a lot in this thread, but I think jhuddy is making some very flawed points and I'm attacking the logic of those points. I would do the same if he was an athiest making bad, self-contradictory points.
Yeah. I'll argue against the idea that religion and theism is no more inherently evil than atheism, gladly. But I'm not going to accept nonsense on the other side of it either.
In my post i referred to JOB chapters 48 and 49 but i actually meant JOB chapters 38 and 39. I apologize for the mis-reference. But if you read those, you would understand that NO ONE can understand GOD's will. It is far to complex for anyone to comprehend. so although you think he is doing these "bad" things to people, just remember, NO ONE knows his plans for people. Who are we to question our creator?
If God's purpose is unknowable, why follow him?
Why shouldn't we question him?
How do we know he is perfect? He may be more powerful, does that make
him not a bully when he kills people on a whim? Why take God on his word that he's good?
If God's will is unkowable and his perspective is beyond our understanding, then why follow him? We cannot know what he's saying. I could have the inkling that I want to rape, murder, and/or pillage. How do I know this is not God? If God is fine with labor slavery, sexual slavery, murder, and rape, given the correct circumstances, then how do I know it's wrong? It's not, by the Bible's standards. Should I do these things as a Christian? If not, why not? It's in the Bible, it is allowed, it is even demanded.
Theists, especially those of the hokey western Christian persuasion, often believe and say they have a personal relationship with a deity that actively intervenes and provides meaningful messages. It seems to me that this sort of idea is used to IGNORE the parts of the Bible you don't like and to simply use the parts you do. Aren't you just putting a deity behind your own beliefs and those your church supports?
In my post i referred to JOB chapters 48 and 49 but i actually meant JOB chapters 38 and 39. I apologize for the mis-reference. But if you read those, you would understand that NO ONE can understand GOD's will. It is far to complex for anyone to comprehend. so although you think he is doing these "bad" things to people, just remember, NO ONE knows his plans for people. Who are we to question our creator?
We are the only beings who CAN question. It's our duty. We also have a pretty firm grasp of logic and mathematical concepts, and the idea of contradiction is pretty solid. So yeah, it's our job to question our creator, especially if he has only revealed himself through unverified literature.
I quite like the paradox; if God is omnipotent then can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? It's simple and shows how language can be used quite skilfully.
But I'd like to steer the topic away from discussions about God. I don't really feel God and logic mix very well since there are always clever ways of using language to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of God.
How about discussing the practical applications of philosophy? I know a lot of people who question the value of philosophy. Why do you think they should (or perhaps should not) get into it? A lot of people claim it is just a lot of hot air, people with too much time on their hands, people trying to make things overly complicated or people just trying to sound intelligent. How has philosophy helped you in a practical way?
For me it helped when I was out in South Korea teaching English to children. I would get quite angry when things didn't go as I had planned, or when the children did something which went against my expectations. But then I started to question my expectations and realised that children are children; of course they're going to want to play around and muck about! I learnt that my expectations were just ideas. Who is to say those ideas were the best ones? What if the children had the better ideas about how to act and behave? They certainly seemed to be happier...
Oh, and two more questions: are there any philosophical books that you absolutely cannot stand? Are there any philosophical books that you absolutely love?
there are always clever ways of using language to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of God.
Not for anyone who actually understands logic. I hate when people act like logic can be manipulated to prove anything. That's simply not true.
How about discussing the practical applications of philosophy?
I tried going there with my little ethics rant, but people don't seem very interested.
In the more abstract sense though, philosophy teaches us how to think. Having a strong grasp on it will put you in a better position to reason through things.
Okay so this is turning into an argument, and i don't want to anger anyone, for it is not only a sin for me to get angry, but also to make others angry too. I'm sorry that to some of you it felt like i was trying to convert you. I don't expect you to care, honestly i don't. I'm just doing what i am commanded because i love the LORD my GOD and im not going to deny HIM. So with that I thank you for the conversations. and If any of you want to know more Ill be happy to share GODs word with you
Not for anyone who actually understands logic. I hate when people act like logic can be manipulated to prove anything. That's simply not true.
Note that I didn't say it can prove anything/everything; just that it can be used in ways by people to 'prove' or disprove the existence of a God and, because of this, I don't think logic and discussions of the existence of God mix very well.
A simple example:
1. Everything I see/feel exists
2. I see/feel God
Therefore: God exists
Valid, yes. But is it sound? To some people this is a wonderful 'proof' of the existence of God. But the problem is faith is not logical. I wouldn't expect you to shake someones faith by showing them a logical proof that God does not exist. Similarly, someone of faith is going to struggle to convert someone by showing logical proofs of the existence of God. Every logical 'proof' for the existence of God that I have seen has been, philosophically and logically, very shaky and easily counterable. Generally speaking this is because many people don't actually have an understanding of logic and how to use it.
Logic has its uses, certainly, but I think, in the case of God, it finds itself up against something which is, fundamentally, illogical. The concept of God itself is incredibly vague. What is God? What do people mean when they say God?
It's a complex issue. Why do people believe what they believe?
And jhuddy; arguments/discussions/debates are wonderful things. They help people to think. It's not so much about 'winning' it's more about thinking things through and seeing another persons perspective.
Frogacunda; don't other things teach us to think also? For example; mathematics, reading newspapers, learning to play a song on an instrument, learning a new recipe, meeting someone for the first time. Or is it that philosophy teaches us to think in a specific way? You mention reason; how does philosophy help us to reason through things?
Comments
Atheism hasn't caused any damage at all, whereas religion has led to the slaughter of millions over history. Sure, it may help some people, but it's death for everyone else.
No, xenophobia, reactionary resistance to cultural tides, and lust for power has led to that slaughter, regardless of what God's name was on the banner.
Hitler wasn't religious. He justified what he did to a nation with his own crazy promises that might parallel religious thinking but never invoked religion, and people bought it and millions died.
Nihilism has been used to justify many crimes. People use atheism as a stupid excuse to shirk morality. This tendency is probably what led to religion in the first place. You act like scared, stupid, misanthropes were made that way by religion, and they weren't.
Although I don't think Hitler represents the majority of atheists. Was he even atheist?
Another thing to note is that heaps of surveys have been run, and generally the smarter you are, the less likely you are to be religious. Out of all the nobel prize winners, only 4 weren't openly atheist, and those 4 simply refused to comment on their beliefs (perfectly reasonable), so it's pretty staggerring.
The number of atheists is on the rise, there are more atheists in America then there are religious jews. You just don't hear about it because there isn't a united group of atheists.
I predict, that in another 2000 years, the number of religious people will be quite small, just because people are becoming more educated over the years. Just because there's no proof for religion, and it's such a far fetched concept.
And you can be atheist and have morals. God doesn't give you morals. They're part of who you are. No religion required.
Woah, do you think the 9/11 bombers represent the majority of Muslims?! That Westboro represents the majority of Christians?!
The example is not completely the best one, because Hitler and the Nazi party have a very complex connection to religion that is buried in double-talk and propaganda. Whatever the case, the contradictory religious views expressed or used by the party don't tend to be a unified message, and don't seem to be the point under which the German nation generally rallied. It was more a system of nationhood, of getting back at the world, of reclaiming a lost, opulent, Golden Age of Germany.
I never trust the Nobel Prize. Though it many people that obtain it DO deserve it, it has been used since its inception for political purposes. Whether or not these political purposes are just or not isn't what is being argued right now, but its use as an impartial judge of humanity's greatest achievements. While the political bias is most obvious in their literature prize category, it says something about the ideals governing the Nobel Prize Committee.
It's actually kind of iffy, whether or not it is rising. One issue is that generally religious societies do have a larger birth rate, so even if numbers are rising, percentages overall probably drop. A lack of religion is far less easy to categorize than religion itself, or at least just as difficult.
I really don't think you need to look far to see that a lot of people aren't getting actually educated, many times of their own free will rather than a lack of information.
People will always want to have a greater meaning in their life. It seems ingrained in human thought from the beginning, when all of nature was interpreted as divine force. People will seek higher meaning, and I'm certain a large portion of them will personify this in the form of a divine being, spirit, set of divine beings, and/or spirits.
Ah, but that was never argued. The argument was that there are those who use atheism to defy morality. This is mostly the case with "Teen Philosophy", the kid who just discovered Nietzsche and decides to rebel against their parents' or society's religious views, for the purpose of rebellion and justifying their own behavior rather than an actually personal belief in real Nietzsche philosophy. Ayn Rand is another popular choice.
That's why I think that religion should not be the whole "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything.", but rather not as public. Religion is important, though I hope we manage to weed out religions like Islam and Christianity. Even Hinduism's Karma philosophies are good - they say what you do is what you get. They also say that there's no need to tell anyone about this, because they'll get what they deserve as a person. It's harmless.
This is a lot more consistent than attributing it to religion alone. In Rwanda the Hutus and the Tutsis fight over distinctions that were doled out arbitrarily by the colonials. People will just hate anyone they determine are different. It's not religion's fault, it's people's.
He represented enough people to be democratically elected, so that should say something. You're just using religion as a scapegoat.
I understand this. I'm an atheist and I've spent a lot of time studying ethics. But the fact is, some people do not understand this, and they'll conclude that because there is no Space Being to punish them, they can do whatever they want. They're stupid, but they're still comitting crimes in the name of atheism.
In the Islamic faith, they kill Christians. Being a christian, we aren't called to kill people for not believing. We are called to LOVE everyone. Why should a religion that is all about loving and obeying the one true creator, and loving each other be weeded out?
With GOD what you do, is what you get. Listen to HIM, obey HIS commands, and just love HIM and everyone else, you get to spend an eternity in heaven.(If you truly believe it with all your heart.)
Choose to live for yourself and indulge in the pleasures of this world, you go to hell. Its not Christianity that's destroying this world....Its people.
GALATIANS 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
About that thing you said "We're holy so we're right, and everyone must turn to our religion for everything." Christians aren't called to cram GOD down your throat. All we are doing is simply sharing GODs word with those of you who haven't heard it yet. if you don't believe....so be it I'm not going to threaten to chop your head off, but rather I'm going to love you just as GOD commands. And if you wish to hear more about GOD I will gladly share some more
Doesn't make them bad people, but it does engender resentment. You've been tripping over your own words and contradicting yourself. You stopped responding to me, and now you're acting like anyone will care what you have to say about the bible. You don't help your cause when you refuse to treat people like equals.
I say that not to judge you, but as a bit of advice if you truly want to spread the word of Christ. You can't just throw around Bible quotes, you need to ask questions so you can answer them when others come to you or else you'll just turn people away from God. See, this is where we enter brainwashing territory. It's the notion that, even if you do as God says, you might not go to heaven because you didn't "believe with all your heart." This means you're not even allowed to ask questions or examine the situation to determine if it's true, or indeed to talk to anyone outside of your faith on equal terms. That's a dangerous mentality.
Doubt is not a sin, it's the human condition. Even Abraham, though he persevered, had doubt. You're allowed to ask questions.
Read this.
You know how sometimes you'll see "IHS" on a gravestone? You know how people claim it means "In His Service"? Do you know what "In hoc signo vinces" means? Christians have a long history of conquering and killing in the name of god. Whether or not you believe in killing people for the bible isn't the point, the point is people have killed for it numerous times before.
Also, no more arbitrary bible verses please.
For all of my quotations, I will use the King James Version of the Bible. I'll cite the book, chapter, and verse so that you may check validity with your Bible of choice.
The King James translation is actually far kinder with its language than other translations, if only in some cases because it uses far less contemporary wording. I'll also stray from parables if I can, sticking to strict commandments, orders, and alleged historical events.
These quotations are generally in no particular order. Please respond if you have any issue with the organization, accuracy, or legitimacy of my selected quotations.
Deuteronomy 13:6-16
6. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7. Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8. Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9. But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14. Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3. And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Exodus 22:18
18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:20
20. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Psalm 14:1-3
1. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
((Basically, if your slave doesn't die within two days from your beating, you're fine in the eyes of God, because the slave is your property))
Just want to say the universe can't be infinite. If it were infinite, then 'motion' would have no beginning, because it too would be infinite. If motion is infinite, and nothing initiated motion, then every motion would be moving at the same time in relation to each other.
If everything is moving at the same time, then there is really nothing moving at all because it's all in relation to each other and there is nothing to distinguish the motion.
There must be something that initiated 'motion' and life, because life is an example of motion. That something is considered God.
If the universe is finite, and there was a beginning, then there must be something (God) that initiated the beginning.
If nothing initiated the beginning of the universe, and nothing existed before the universe existed, then nothing must exist right now.
How could something exist out of nothing? You would have to be God to be able to do that.
On a personal note I don't worship God, I don't think that's his point.
JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
It doesn't matter what my own words say cause no matter what my own words are...its not going to help you believe. It is only through GODs word that you will find salvation. Which is why GOD wants us to spread HIS word, not ours. so that's why i use so many verses from the bible. because nothing i say will help.
you said im acting like anyone will care. most unbelievers wont care but its not my job to choose who to share GODs word with its GODs.
I feel as if this has become more of an argument, and that's not how it should be. I truly am sorry if i have upset anyone over the course of my posts. I assure you i have not posting anything that wasn't out of love for all of you.
I think that versions of this argument involving time are problematic, because they suppose a simplistic notion of time that might not work, and then exclude the possibility of circular time.
Basically a working version version of the argument could be formulated thus:
Every explaination must invoke an accepted law. Thus, there must be some prime law that cannot be broken down further.
The problems with this are:
1) It does not suppose a single root cause. This is something people have tried to do with the argument, but the fact is, there may be 24 fundamental laws that give order to the universe, none of which can be broken down any further. There's no reason it has to be one.
2) This prime lawgiver or lawgivers are not sufficient to meet any definition of God. While they might be properties we assign to God, "being the root of everything" does not automatically equal "God." This is the problem I talked about before where people will simply adjust the meaning of God to fit something they can justify, rather than to justify any fixed meaning of God.
You're definitely right, it doesn't necessarily have to be one law or "God" and it doesn't necessarily fit into the perception that people generally have of God.
But God is ultimately a personal understanding, similar to beauty.
Some guys like brunettes, some like blondes, but there is never a way to prove whether blonde or brunette is more beautiful because there is no point.
What difference does it make if your neighbor likes blondes when you think there's nothing sexier than brunettes.
Even if you change your mind of beauty simply because of neighbor envy (grass is always greener), it still doesn't mean that you don't understand beauty. It just means your idea of beauty is a little social.
Why does this book have value? Why should I take what it has to say at face value? Why should I ignore the less pleasant bits? Why should I ignore that American Christianity is mainly made up of those who simply choose what portions of the Bible "Count", while ignoring the sections that condone and explain the rules for owning and beating slaves?
Don't worry about it. For most of the jobs out there, it matters more that you graduated with some degree and have meaningful work experience than your specific major does (unless you want to be in the sciences or medicine, of course). I was a philosophy major, now I'm a writer. Screw English and Journalism, it didn't matter.
But the interesting thing is that beauty, while subjective, has a single concept regardless. God, on the other hand, is applied to things as disparate as the laws of physics and an emotion inside of people. There's almost nothing that can universally be said of God.
If I have a dog and I name him God, that doesn't necessarily mean that I proved God exists, you know? It's cheating. You know, it's rarely addressed, because the concept is blasphemous, but God as a character is kind of interesting. He actually undergoes meaningful character development throughout the course of the bible. Early on he's curious and temperamental. He's much like a child that builds a tower of blocks and then angrily knocks it down, and then feels bad about it. Later on he mellows out a bit, but he's still obsessed with authority. Then, in Exodus he gets angry about the Golden Calf and actually talks things over with Moses who convinces him not to smite everyone. By the time the New Testament rolls around, God is older and wiser, and understands concepts like forgiveness.
The bible is an interesting piece of literature if you step back from the premise of actual heavenly authority.
I found this on a website called Godandscience.org. I will post the link at the bottom of my post, and i think its a pretty good answer, but here is what it said.
The God in the Old Testament seems to have many personalities; cruel, unjust, kind, loving, etc."1 There are, however, two major areas which we humans have a difficult time reconciling - God's love vs. God's righteousness. God is loving, but God's love requires God's justice. As I discipline my three children when they disobey, God disciplines us if we don't meet His requirements. The problem for us is that we cannot keep all of God's laws because of our selfishness and self-centeredness.2 God would have been completely just and loving in destroying all of us for our disobedience to Him. It is only through His extraordinary love and grace that we are allowed into His presence.
Atrocities by God?
If you were to read atheist's websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, such as Jericho, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. How could a loving God command the destruction of all those "innocent" people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)
Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)
The wickedness of these people is confirmed in other verses of the Bible.3 So we see that these people are not quite as innocent as the atheists would like you to believe. Then again, maybe those atheists believe that killing your children is not all bad. After all, killing viable pre-born babies is legal in this country (it's called a choice, a.k.a. abortion). For these reasons (and others4), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.
Did God kill any innocent people along with the evil ones? When God was about to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the cities if there were 50 righteous people in them.5 God said no. Then Abraham asked the same question if there were 45 righteous people. Every time he dropped the number and got the same answer. The fact is that God would not have destroyed those cities if there were any righteous people in them. The few righteous who were in those cities He warned ahead of time to get out.6 So, God does not destroy the righteous along with the evil.
God's judgment of people groups found in the Old Testament actually pales in comparison to the judgment He will render at the end of time. According to the New Testament Book of Revelation, God will judge and kill billions of people who reject Him when Jesus returns, including 200 million killed in a single battle.7 Such large armies have never existed in the history of mankind until the last 100 years, suggesting the this judgment could come at any time.
Conclusion Top of page
In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin - everything that goes against His character. If God let everyone into heaven, then He would have to allow in people such as Stalin and Hitler. Obviously, heaven would not be a good place to be with the likes of those people there. Therefore, God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin. Only those people who agree with God and are willing to allow themselves to be changed into sinless beings can enter into heaven. For information on how to do this,
The people he killed were not innocent...they were wicked. "for EVERY ABOMINABLE act which the LORD HATES they have done for their gods" and he gave warning to the righteous to leave so they would remain unharmed.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html#QF2IgGmq0WhF
But the fact that God has "Changed" itself is a ridiculous concept. You can't say God is perfect and eternal, but that he has mood swings from millennium to millennium.
HE calls them wicked...not disobedient. They did EVERYTHING HE hates. murder, sleeping with multiple women, worshiping false idols( even sacrificing there children to those idols.) anything bad you can think of they have done it. Because like i said before, they did EVERYTHING HE hates.
GALATIANS 6:7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I'm beginning to think you don't know anything about the bible at all. And you also don't address the bigger question of why a perfect and eternal being would behave so differently now than back then.
GENESIS 19:15
"And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed."
Lot’s wife "looked back" (the phrase might even be rendered "returned back" or "lagged back") seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom. Sodom was a filthy cesspool of sin, and the fact that GOD was saving them from that, but the fact that she still longed for that life was what did it.
As for Job very sad story. you seem to have read this story. and as you may know Satan spoke to GOD saying and GOD was telling satan about his amazing follower Job. And this is what was said.
JOB 1:9-11
Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
And the LORD responded.
JOB 1:12
All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.
So satan killed Jobs family, and Job responded with.
JOB 1:21
I came naked form my mothers womb,
and I will be stripped of everything when i die.
The LORD gave me everything I had,
and the LORD has taken it away.
Praise the name of the LORD!
GOD allowed this to happen to prove satan wrong. Cause he was so sure that Job would crumble and denounce GOD, but he was wrong.
Then there was the second test. where satan said.
JOB 2:4-5
Satan replied to the Lord, “Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
And the LORD responded with.
JOB 2:6
All right, do with him as you please,” the Lord said to Satan. “But spare his life.
JOB2:7-10
So Satan left the Lord’s presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes. His wife said to him, “Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.” But Job replied, “You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?” So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.
because of how long the book of JOB is I'm going to just give a summery of what happens next. Basically Jobs friends came to comfort him in his sickness and they didn't speak for 7 days because they felt he was in to much pain to speak. and in this time Job became angry and started asking how GOD could do this to him. and they had long conversations going back and forth between Job and his friends. and then after the conversations GOD answered Job. (because these are very long verses i will just post where you can look them up.)
JOB chapter 48
JOB chapter 49
JOB 40:1-2
Then the LORD said to Job, "Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are GOD's critic, but do you have the answers?"
JOB 40:3-5
Then Job replied to the Lord,“I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers? I will cover my mouth with my hand. I have said too much already. I have nothing more to say.
and GOD went on with more examples of his power.
JOB 42:1-6
Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do anything,and no one can stop you.You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’ It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about, things far too wonderful for me. You said, ‘Listen and I will speak! I have some questions for you, and you must answer them.’ I had only heard about you before, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. I take back everything I said, and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance.”
and GOD forgave Job and gave him a new family with even more sons and daughters and live stock
JOB 42: 16-17
Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life.
I never said she was perfect, but it's not a very good reason to kill someone.
God has no reason to prove anything to Satan. He murdered innocent people to prove a point to one of his subservient underlings? (bear in mind that Satan of the Old Testament is not "Anti-God" who rules over hell, but merely an angel subservient to God).
Oh, I'm sure that made it all better. Nevermind that his children were murdered for no reason. Since the story is about Job and not the kid, they're treated in the same manner as livestock; replaceable commodities.
Another example: In Exodus, the final plague is the death of the first born sons of all of Egypt. God acknowledges that many of these are innocent children of God, and orders his angels not to celebrate their loss. So this is a clear-cut indisputable example of God killing people who do not deserve it, simply to prove a point to Pharaoh.
Meanwhile, God could have just blinked the Jews into freedom, because he's all-powerful, but he thought it would be more dramatic if he killed a bunch of dudes and drowned some people in the sea. I guess he was thinking ahead to the inevitable movie deal, right?
Really there's no reason to fight. If God didn't exist atheist would be right and there would be harm to no one. If He exists then it doesn't harm atheists. But if God didn't exist then our existance would be more sad and pathetical with no search of a greater knowledge or better life beyond our comprehension.
Just because we can't understand or don't think it is logical that God exists it is true.
Maybe we have a limited idea of God. God is not an old man in the skies. Maybe God is the universe and all energy within it. So in that sense God=universe then God=omnipresent.
That why I think it is strange to consider all well designed creation is not interconected and the result of an intelligent design. Even if it may seem less than perfect all creation has it function in the universe. Just because a drawing that you made seems less perfect than you (its creator) it mean that it has not been created by you.
I think that whatever view we have we must respect opposite ones, at least until some is proved wrong, which probably will take a long time. Until then it is good to discuss these matters respectfully and try to have an open mind.
In my post i referred to JOB chapters 48 and 49 but i actually meant JOB chapters 38 and 39. I apologize for the mis-reference. But if you read those, you would understand that NO ONE can understand GOD's will. It is far to complex for anyone to comprehend. so although you think he is doing these "bad" things to people, just remember, NO ONE knows his plans for people. Who are we to question our creator?
I can't stand religion for precisely this reason. Doesn't make sense? STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, ACCEPT IT AND PRETEND IT MAKES SENSE.
If God's purpose is unknowable, why follow him?
Why shouldn't we question him?
How do we know he is perfect? He may be more powerful, does that make
him not a bully when he kills people on a whim? Why take God on his word that he's good?
If God's will is unkowable and his perspective is beyond our understanding, then why follow him? We cannot know what he's saying. I could have the inkling that I want to rape, murder, and/or pillage. How do I know this is not God? If God is fine with labor slavery, sexual slavery, murder, and rape, given the correct circumstances, then how do I know it's wrong? It's not, by the Bible's standards. Should I do these things as a Christian? If not, why not? It's in the Bible, it is allowed, it is even demanded.
Theists, especially those of the hokey western Christian persuasion, often believe and say they have a personal relationship with a deity that actively intervenes and provides meaningful messages. It seems to me that this sort of idea is used to IGNORE the parts of the Bible you don't like and to simply use the parts you do. Aren't you just putting a deity behind your own beliefs and those your church supports?
We are the only beings who CAN question. It's our duty. We also have a pretty firm grasp of logic and mathematical concepts, and the idea of contradiction is pretty solid. So yeah, it's our job to question our creator, especially if he has only revealed himself through unverified literature.
But I'd like to steer the topic away from discussions about God. I don't really feel God and logic mix very well since there are always clever ways of using language to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of God.
How about discussing the practical applications of philosophy? I know a lot of people who question the value of philosophy. Why do you think they should (or perhaps should not) get into it? A lot of people claim it is just a lot of hot air, people with too much time on their hands, people trying to make things overly complicated or people just trying to sound intelligent. How has philosophy helped you in a practical way?
For me it helped when I was out in South Korea teaching English to children. I would get quite angry when things didn't go as I had planned, or when the children did something which went against my expectations. But then I started to question my expectations and realised that children are children; of course they're going to want to play around and muck about! I learnt that my expectations were just ideas. Who is to say those ideas were the best ones? What if the children had the better ideas about how to act and behave? They certainly seemed to be happier...
Oh, and two more questions: are there any philosophical books that you absolutely cannot stand? Are there any philosophical books that you absolutely love?
I tried going there with my little ethics rant, but people don't seem very interested.
In the more abstract sense though, philosophy teaches us how to think. Having a strong grasp on it will put you in a better position to reason through things.
Love Jhuddy.
Note that I didn't say it can prove anything/everything; just that it can be used in ways by people to 'prove' or disprove the existence of a God and, because of this, I don't think logic and discussions of the existence of God mix very well.
A simple example:
1. Everything I see/feel exists
2. I see/feel God
Therefore: God exists
Valid, yes. But is it sound? To some people this is a wonderful 'proof' of the existence of God. But the problem is faith is not logical. I wouldn't expect you to shake someones faith by showing them a logical proof that God does not exist. Similarly, someone of faith is going to struggle to convert someone by showing logical proofs of the existence of God. Every logical 'proof' for the existence of God that I have seen has been, philosophically and logically, very shaky and easily counterable. Generally speaking this is because many people don't actually have an understanding of logic and how to use it.
Logic has its uses, certainly, but I think, in the case of God, it finds itself up against something which is, fundamentally, illogical. The concept of God itself is incredibly vague. What is God? What do people mean when they say God?
It's a complex issue. Why do people believe what they believe?
And jhuddy; arguments/discussions/debates are wonderful things. They help people to think. It's not so much about 'winning' it's more about thinking things through and seeing another persons perspective.
Frogacunda; don't other things teach us to think also? For example; mathematics, reading newspapers, learning to play a song on an instrument, learning a new recipe, meeting someone for the first time. Or is it that philosophy teaches us to think in a specific way? You mention reason; how does philosophy help us to reason through things?
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