As a player you might not notice the differences without a fine-toothed comb, but as an amateur game developer whose personal favorite game of all time is The Secret of Monkey Island the differences are glaring to me. I do understand the argument that the prior versions of the game were "better" though. The first version I played was the enhanced CD version, so to me that's the better one, but to each his own.
Also Cobb was brought up as a negative point of the SE?? :eek: I'm sorry but frankly I would have been furious if Cobb had been removed from the game. Just because the joke is no longer relevant (opinion) doesn't mean it should be removed. Sure you could say it was just blatant advertising, but that was precisely the joke, so if you're griping about that you've missed the entire point. The whole bit with "<ADVERTISEMENT>" flashing at the bottom of the screen was a parody of in-game advertisement. Yes, due to the fact that it was in-game advertisement, to an extent it was its own antithesis. However, it was still a joke.
Besides, LOOM™ is still one of the greatest things LA has ever produced. And I insist on using the ™ there because, although I'm sure you probably missed that too, the usage of the symbol throughout the game was another joke.
Also Cobb was brought up as a negative point of the SE?? :eek:
Who's Cobb?
Personally, I didn't say that advertising one game inside another one (what's the term for that again?) is bad. Did you see all the DotT vs. Sam&Max shtick back in 1993-94? It was mad, and even through people didn't play one or another of these games, the way it was presented was still funny.
Loom, on the other hand, is an outdated game. I'm sorry if this sounds pejorative, but I've never really enjoyed it, mostly because it was already based on a novel of mediocre popularity (that's all I know about Loom, ask that Scumm Bar guy about the rest). Sure, I've played it. Did I remember it? Nope.
The problem with this is that you remake the game. So you remake it flesh and bones, i.e. every single plot frangment, every since thing stays the same. Then explain to me the following.
a) How come the stump joke is gone? Personally, I liked it way more that the Loom guy joke.
b) You redraw faces. If they're already too cartoonish on close ups, least make them open their mouth when they talk. Or draw them natural, realistic. It looks like they're stuck midway and are neither.
c) There is a small Sam and Max idol at the bottomleft corner of the screen with the giant Monkey Head when Guybrush q-tips its ear. How come nobody's talking about that?
I am open to changes, but don't release it like this. People who play this and say: "Well, it's not the original, but it's acceptable because it's better than nothing" almost make me cry.
Each MI (well, the first three for sure) has a Sam&Max reference.
Don't say you didn't notice the obvious costumes of them in the dressing shop in LCR. And in CMI they were action figure dolls IIRC.
Also, it's great that joke is alluded at in CMI with the "ask me about Grim Fandango" fellow .
(Also the Floppy joke is gone because it's based on the CD version, where it was already removed. No idea why they couldn't just ask you to implent disk [add large number here] but whatever...)
Also, it's great that joke is alluded at in CMI with the "ask me about Grim Fandango" fellow .
Well there you go, see, that's another brilliant example of a well concealed joke. When Grim was nearing its release and they inserted that into CMI, it was funny at the time. Today, if you repeat the same joke, I'm sure recent generations (those who didn't play games yet when that came out) won't appreciate it the same way. Though unlike Loom, I was old enough to understand it back then and got a good laugh of Calavera sitting at Blondebeard's.
(Also the Floppy joke is gone because it's based on the CD version, where it was already removed. No idea why they couldn't just ask you to implent disk [add large number here] but whatever...)
That. Or they could've allude to its updated version in CMI where guybrush sticks his head out of the stump and says something stupid. The funniest would've been MI1 Guybrush sticking his head in the stump hole and say: "Gee, there's some crypt with a moaning ghost there, not sure I want to bother her". I'd have found it hilarious.
I was sad there was no stump joke, I love the stump joke but yeah... cd version heh.
Uzr> *insert senseless sounds of revoltion at your dismissal of Loom* Loom is a beautiful game, sure it's a bit marmite in the sense that some love it, others hate it... but it's still so different to anything else that it has to be acknowledged.
based on a novel of mediocre popularity - Er... what? Either i've been missing something all these years or... yeah.
As for your other points:
a) How come the stump joke is gone? Personally, I liked it way more that the Loom guy joke. - Cd version removed it, sad but true. It was gone looong before this edition. Apparently a lot of people didn't get the joke initially, but how true that is....
b) You redraw faces. If they're already too cartoonish on close ups, least make them open their mouth when they talk. Or draw them natural, realistic. It looks like they're stuck midway and are neither. - Yeah, wasn't a fan of the cartoony zoomed in faces. Elaine just looks... odd and Guybrush's hair.. oh god the hair...
c) There is a small Sam and Max idol at the bottomleft corner of the screen with the giant Monkey Head when Guybrush q-tips its ear. How come nobody's talking about that?
- Lucasarts no longer have the rights to S&M, so it was replaced with a tentacle effigy. I thought that was sort of cute actually, like "we acknowledge there was a joke here, so we substituted"
I did wonder how they'd skirt around that issue.
It was interesting to see secret reskinned, because that's really all it was, a reskinning. Bits worked, other bits didn't but the voice acting was a lovely touch. Gamers these days EXPECT voice acting, you noticed that? It'd have been nice to be able to have the original graphics with the voices but I don't know how they'd have implemented that.. timing etc...
Uzr> *insert senseless sounds of revoltion at your dismissal of Loom* Loom is a beautiful game, sure it's a bit marmite in the sense that some love it, others hate it... but it's still so different to anything else that it has to be acknowledged.
Senseless rage. I never "dismissed" Loom. I just didn't get it as a game, that's all. Hassat made a perfect comparison with Grim Fandango in CMI, that's exactly what I pointing out at. In 1997 this way funny. If you, for some reasons unknown, remake CMI, like, let's say, 7 years from now, and add the same Calavera with the same sticker - I'm sure younger audience would go "WTF" about it. It's undoubted.
Cd version removed it, sad but true. It was gone looong before this edition. Apparently a lot of people didn't get the joke initially, but how true that is....
But good enough to be inserted in the third game. Remember rabid jaguars?
- Lucasarts no longer have the rights to S&M, so it was replaced with a tentacle effigy. I thought that was sort of cute actually, like "we acknowledge there was a joke here, so we substituted"
I did wonder how they'd skirt around that issue.
You know what I think about it? I think LA decided to make a subtle reference in the remake, hoping that all these legal ppl would be too lame to figure it out. But it was there for quite a long time, and what bothers me the most is - how come they appear there three years before their first game release? Was this Purcell messing with everybody or what? lol
But it was there for quite a long time, and what bothers me the most is - how come they appear there three years before their first game release? Was this Purcell messing with everybody or what? lol
You know Sam and Max is based on a comic, don't you, and one that was created by Steve Purcell long before the game came out.
That's why I said that. To me it alludes to the fact that either whoever drew them was into Purcell's comics, or that they were already planning to do a game about his comics.
The SE was halfway garbage. The graphical "update" took something charming and unique and made it bland and borderline ugly. On the other hand, the voice acting was a welcome feature... but it comes off as awkwardly slow and unnatural (whether this was an artistic decision or having to match the slow speed of the on-screen text due to a technical limitation of the SCUMM engine I don't know).
Senseless rage. I never "dismissed" Loom. I just didn't get it as a game, that's all. Hassat made a perfect comparison with Grim Fandango in CMI, that's exactly what I pointing out at. In 1997 this way funny. If you, for some reasons unknown, remake CMI, like, let's say, 7 years from now, and add the same Calavera with the same sticker - I'm sure younger audience would go "WTF" about it. It's undoubted.
Or, it targets the people who used to play CMI (us) and we all remember Grim Fandango.
The SE was halfway garbage. The graphical "update" took something charming and unique and made it bland and borderline ugly. On the other hand, the voice acting was a welcome feature... but it comes off as awkwardly slow and unnatural (whether this was an artistic decision or having to match the slow speed of the on-screen text due to a technical limitation of the SCUMM engine I don't know).
Here comes the guy who dug everything I said before.
Two is already enough to start a petition against LA's remakes
That's why I said that. To me it alludes to the fact that either whoever drew them was into Purcell's comics, or that they were already planning to do a game about his comics.
Well, er, maybe Steve Purcell himself put it there? I'm pretty sure he was an artist at LucasArts at that time.
Senseless rage. I never "dismissed" Loom. I just didn't get it as a game, that's all. Hassat made a perfect comparison with Grim Fandango in CMI, that's exactly what I pointing out at. In 1997 this way funny. If you, for some reasons unknown, remake CMI, like, let's say, 7 years from now, and add the same Calavera with the same sticker - I'm sure younger audience would go "WTF" about it. It's undoubted.
When I first played Curse, I had never even heard of Grim Fandango. I still laughed a bit because I thought it was rather funny that there was a dead guy sitting in the chicken restaurant. Same with the Loom guy in Secret. I had never heard of Loom until he started talking about it, but I though the joke was hilarious.
The special edition was great for the fantastic soundtrack alone. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
Although I think my absolute favorite thing about the SE is how Dominic Armato's "I'm Guybrush Threepwood and I want to be a pirate!" sounded exactly like it did in my head all those years ago. It's almost kinda creepy.
I had never heard of Loom until he started talking about it, but I though the joke was hilarious.
Would you have found it hilarious if SE would've been the first MI game you play? Not the guy in particular, but what he was saying by late 2009 standards?
Would you have found it hilarious if SE would've been the first MI game you play? Not the guy in particular, but what he was saying by late 2009 standards?
I first played it in 2005, I think, so I don't think it would've made much difference.
Maybe it's because I'm a largely visual person, but the 'Special Edition' is just completely atrocious.
To replace Steve Purcell's excellent, funny, dark and strange art direction with sub-DeviantArt cartoons is just horrible. I wasn't really a fan of the move towards cartoon style back when it happened in CMI, but at least that was competently done. The art in this game was just a hideous mess. And considering the art in the original game was fantastic, it was really kind of annoying.
I'm pretty sure it's not just nostalgia talking, as I sent an artist friend who has never played an LEC game in his life images of the close-ups from both versions, as well as the box art, and his reaction was general disgust. Actually, his exact words were "Wow. They really perfected the 'dollar-store coloring book cover' aesthetic."
Which really hit it on the head. The game looks cheap. The original version pushed the limits of the system it was made for to the highest artistic standards it could reach. The 'Special Edition' did FAR less with far more resources. Even looking at those pirate close-ups posted earlier in the thread you see the colors in the old version really sing, despite the limited palette, whereas the colors in the new one are pretty uniformly muddy and gray, like something colored using the dodge and burn tool by an amateur in Photoshop.
Hell, several of the background images weren't even finished! This should have been called "The Secret of Monkey Island: Amateur Hour".
The voicework isn't enough of a plus to balance it out for me because, as I've said I'm mainly a visual person. Also, what I've seen of it sounds choppy and awkward. And I'm not really strongly attached to the voice cast of CMI anyway.
I'm mildly interested in picking up the game for some of the mods people are doing to fix the numerous graphical problems (and allow speech with the old graphics), but I'd actually feel bad about monetarily supporting this project, and possibly allowing them to wreak the same damage on Monkey Island 2's fantastic artwork...
I first played it in 2005, I think, so I don't think it would've made much difference.
Well, see, it's still not the same. Having some dude at the bar talk about Loom in an old game is one thing, it's funny enough even if you don't know the game - you just presume it was another marketing hitch at the time when internet didn't exist and they only had so much to cope with advertisement.
But listening to him talk about it right now, considering you're an Xbox fan and this is your first MI game... I dunno, to me it seems kinda strange. Strange in a way that in this context, the joke itself, no matter how much meme it contains, just doesn't fit anymore. Would you have at least replaced it by the same guy saying: "Hey, remember Loom? Ah, the graphics, ah the sound... Not like they make 'em today!" I'd have shared a laugh, honestly.
I'm mildly interested in picking up the game for some of the mods people are doing to fix the numerous graphical problems (and allow speech with the old graphics), but I'd actually feel bad about monetarily supporting this project, and possibly allowing them to wreak the same damage on Monkey Island 2's fantastic artwork...
People kinda want to patch it up, but don't have courage to do it in hopes of redisgracing a definite classic.
Of course not. This is rubbish. In reality, I'm also awaiting any patch that would at least fix the damn issue with Guybrush's legs. But I'd dig any patch or mod willingly improving its graphical characteristics.
There is a "Patch" on the Lucasforums, a fan made one which sorts out some of the alpha problems and glaring visual problems, along with a patch to fix the sign for Stans Previously Owned Vessels and a patch to bring back the Smiley Face on the Scumm Bar sign.
Cobb is the name of the "guy" in the Scumm Bar who tells you about LOOM™. Cobb is also the henchman in LOOM™ who dies when he looks beneath Bobbin's hood.
I completely disagree with the argument that the reference not being current means it should have been removed. I have never played Grim Fandango. Ever. But I still thought the in-joke was funny. I still understood and accepted it for what it was.
Sort of like how Sam & Max showed up outside the monkey head. I never played that game until a few years ago. I missed out on a lot of games growing up, but it doesn't mean these types of references just made me go, "WTF I AM NEVER PLAYING THIS DUMB GAME AGAIN!!1" like you seem to think Cobb must be doing.
For the record, Purcell was working at LA as an artist during the time the original SoMI™ was made. He is responsible for Guybrush's name in fact. Whether he personally drew Sam & Max into that background I don't know though.
I understand the argument that Cobb was not one of the funniest jokes in the game. However, SoMI™ and LOOM™ were the only adventure games I grew up playing. I couldn't tell you how many times I've played SoMI™...and yet when I do start up a new game I still enjoy going in and talking to Cobb. Even though I know what he'll say, I know how it all plays out...still enjoyable for me.
That said though, I guess the only reason I brought it up is because I am completely and utterly failing to see why you think including Cobb in the SE was a bad idea. Just because people don't get the references doesn't mean they should be stripped out. If they did that then half the game would have to be taken out.
What about that bit with the troll and the red herring? Did you immediately know that the troll (after he took his mask off) was actually George Lucas? Coz if you didn't then surely the troll should have been removed entirely.
There is a "Patch" on the Lucasforums, a fan made one which sorts out some of the alpha problems and glaring visual problems, along with a patch to fix the sign for Stans Previously Owned Vessels and a patch to bring back the Smiley Face on the Scumm Bar sign.
What was wrong with the sign?
I really hope they get rid of some extra palm trees on Monkey Island, fix the hanging corpse's legs length and make at least a shadow for the palm tree Guybrush hits with the see-saw... But, I get too carried away, this is SE we're talking about
I completely disagree with the argument that the reference not being current means it should have been removed. I have never played Grim Fandango. Ever. But I still thought the in-joke was funny. I still understood and accepted it for what it was.
Sort of like how Sam & Max showed up outside the monkey head. I never played that game until a few years ago. I missed out on a lot of games growing up, but it doesn't mean these types of references just made me go, "WTF I AM NEVER PLAYING THIS DUMB GAME AGAIN!!1" like you seem to think Cobb must be doing.
For the record, Purcell was working at LA as an artist during the time the original SoMI™ was made. He is responsible for Guybrush's name in fact. Whether he personally drew Sam & Max into that background I don't know though.
I understand the argument that Cobb was not one of the funniest jokes in the game. However, SoMI™ and LOOM™ were the only adventure games I grew up playing. I couldn't tell you how many times I've played SoMI™...and yet when I do start up a new game I still enjoy going in and talking to Cobb. Even though I know what he'll say, I know how it all plays out...still enjoyable for me.
That said though, I guess the only reason I brought it up is because I am completely and utterly failing to see why you think including Cobb in the SE was a bad idea. Just because people don't get the references doesn't mean they should be stripped out. If they did that then half the game would have to be taken out.
What about that bit with the troll and the red herring? Did you immediately know that the troll (after he took his mask off) was actually George Lucas? Coz if you didn't then surely the troll should have been removed entirely.
That type of thinking...I just don't understand.
Okay...
My WHOLE point with that Cobb guy at the bar was that since they redrew him, and he says the exact same things as before, the joke it was intended to be turned into a reminiscence instead. Kinda like instead of just laughing you'd see him and go "Awww, I remember that... Oh yeah, back then it was funny". I'm trying to say this ever since, maybe I'm just not explaining my point clearly enough, I dunno.
Now pretend you NEVER EVER played MI. SE is your first game. You go into a bar, you talk to this Cobb guy, he tells you this... Okay, wtf is Loom? Well, maybe you've heard of it, but... This is not funny. He's just babbling about the game, an advertisement... Okay. Well, moving on. That would at least have been my reaction if I were to play SE as my first MI game.
But on personal notice, I liked that joke. Back then. I still liked it a little now, but having played SE with a rather critical than relaxed mind, I sorted out the fact that maybe inserting some new context into that would've been funny. Picture the same Cobb, with the LOOM sticker. But when you come to see him, he'd go instead: "LOOM is much better than your silly internet games RPG Gaia stuff... Oh, so you played Tales, eh? Well, LOOM is better!" You know, pretending that he doesn't care about today's games, but using recent terms, such as: "So they let you go online... Well, internet is evil, LOOM doesn't do that!" You know, this kind of thing.
Then it would've worked imo. Actually, a lot would've worked had it been a remake/update to today's trends. But being just a remake, I fail to see how it is "better" than the original (thou I wouldn't even call it equal to it).
They should've made a special edition of Loom before SoMI:SE. Then there would be something new to advertise that is essentially the same thing as was advertised in the original SoMI.
Some of the new backgrounds are nice, some look a bit lazy and sloppy. In general the new animation is the worst part about it, all of the characters look like and move like cardboard cutouts. A definite step down from the original animation. The best example of this is LeChuck's death, compared to the original the new one has no weight or smoothness to it. In the original LeChuck bloats to a temendous size and you can feel the movement as he blasts off into the air. In the new one he just sort of gets awkwardly bigger and slides up the screen. Dreadful!
The new character designs were for the most part pretty bad too, Guybrush tragically suffered worst from this.
The new voices and music were of a very high quality though, even if a lot of the characters sounded wrong to me after reading the lines for so long in my head.
If they do make a Monkey Island 2 special edition I hope the success of the first one encourages them to stop outsourcing graphics to Singapore and they do some proper non cardboard cutout animation inhouse. They also need to use the original background paintings in some form, even just as a starting point.
If every game with references or jokes that refers to other games or IPs absolutely MUST be designed so that EVERYONE understand the jokes or references, then surely there would be no references at all in Monkey Island.
For instance, in MI2. "I am you brother", and "noooooooo". I guess these things shouldn't exist, since we all know there ARE people who has never seen a Star Wars movie whatsoever, and not know about this scene, no matter how obscure it might be. SOMI SE was made for the fans of the games, obviously, and I think it's entirely fair to assume that people will get the joke/reference. Personally, I found it even more funny how Cobb talked about high-resolution graphics and all that stuff. I thought the joke has aged well, and actually works even better now that there's another dimension to it, simply BECAUSE it's a reference to what can be considered an ancient game today.
Also, it's the actual whole anachronism nature of it that's meant to be funny. Not that it's actually a reference to Loom. It's a misplaced element in a pirate game, just like so many other elements are, like the Grog/Coke machine. That's the joke. If you don't get that, then you missed the actual joke. And therefore, what product it's referring to is not actually important. It's the fact that there's an in-game advertisement, with a scarred pirate talking about a computer game. Don't see how that's not relevant.
Now pretend you NEVER EVER played MI. SE is your first game. You go into a bar, you talk to this Cobb guy, he tells you this... Okay, wtf is Loom? Well, maybe you've heard of it, but... This is not funny. He's just babbling about the game, an advertisement... Okay. Well, moving on. That would at least have been my reaction if I were to play SE as my first MI game.
I think that joke is still funny for new players, and even if it isn't they'll just shrug it off and ignore it.
My WHOLE point with that Cobb guy at the bar was that since they redrew him, and he says the exact same things as before, the joke it was intended to be turned into a reminiscence instead. Kinda like instead of just laughing you'd see him and go "Awww, I remember that... Oh yeah, back then it was funny". I'm trying to say this ever since, maybe I'm just not explaining my point clearly enough, I dunno.
Now pretend you NEVER EVER played MI. SE is your first game. You go into a bar, you talk to this Cobb guy, he tells you this... Okay, wtf is Loom? Well, maybe you've heard of it, but... This is not funny. He's just babbling about the game, an advertisement... Okay. Well, moving on. That would at least have been my reaction if I were to play SE as my first MI game.
But on personal notice, I liked that joke. Back then. I still liked it a little now, but having played SE with a rather critical than relaxed mind, I sorted out the fact that maybe inserting some new context into that would've been funny. Picture the same Cobb, with the LOOM sticker. But when you come to see him, he'd go instead: "LOOM is much better than your silly internet games RPG Gaia stuff... Oh, so you played Tales, eh? Well, LOOM is better!" You know, pretending that he doesn't care about today's games, but using recent terms, such as: "So they let you go online... Well, internet is evil, LOOM doesn't do that!" You know, this kind of thing.
Then it would've worked imo. Actually, a lot would've worked had it been a remake/update to today's trends. But being just a remake, I fail to see how it is "better" than the original (thou I wouldn't even call it equal to it).
I did laugh to Loom joke first time I played SMI. And I don't think that it's outdated as a joke. You can buy Loom from Steam, because they re-released it week before they released SMI:SE.
I bought Loom and two Indiana Jones adventures at the same time with SMI:SE, because I didn't have PC versions of those old classics and I my Amiga went Kaputt years ago. Actually considering the looks of Loom by modern standards, I think his sales pitch about Loom's groundbreaking qualities is even funnier.
For instance, in MI2. "I am you brother", and "noooooooo". I guess these things shouldn't exist, since we all know there ARE people who has never seen a Star Wars movie whatsoever, and not know about this scene, no matter how obscure it might be.
Everybody knows that joke is misinterpreted. Skywalker never said: "NOOOOOOOO!" to Vader, he just didn't believe him. And Vader wasn't his borther, he was his father, it's different.
SOMI SE was made for the fans of the games, obviously,
Ah! And there we go again, as I said: if you make a game strictly for the fans (like myself), please don't disgrace it with other things aforementioned. I can understand the reminiscence of the Loom guy joke, of course, in this context. But then, make him open his mouth when he talks, and don't draw faces cartoonish, and I'd dig that.
I did laugh to Loom joke first time I played SMI. And I don't think that it's outdated as a joke. You can buy Loom from Steam, because they re-released it week before they released SMI:SE.
I bought Loom and two Indiana Jones adventures at the same time with SMI:SE, because I didn't have PC versions of those old classics and I my Amiga went Kaputt years ago. Actually considering the looks of Loom by modern standards, I think his sales pitch about Loom's groundbreaking qualities is even funnier.
They did?!?!
Why nobody explained this to me earlier? My whole debate is useless now...
Well, if they did and if fans enjoyed, then it must make sense.
Then it IS kinda funny... new resolution... hehehe
It doesn't matter whether the re-released LOOM™ or not. The whole matter is it was never a marketing point. Sure it might have attracted someone to look into the game, but that was not the point of it.
The point was that it was a joke. It doesn't matter what the game was. It wouldn't have mattered if it was referencing the text-only adventure Labyrinth. The point was that it was parodying the idea of in-game advertisement. It was never intended to be a literal marketing ploy.
Regarding the LeChuck-is-Guybrush's-brother scenario, where do you come off saying Luke never said, "Nooo!!"? Somebody needs to watch that scene again. And...wait...did you just say that the reference is acceptable because it's not a verbatim quote? Being his brother and his father is enough differentiation for the reference to be allowed??
Again, I'm still failing to understand your so-called "logic" here. You argue that just because they "updated" the graphics (debatable), updated the music, and added voices that they should have changed in-game events too?
It didn't affect the plot, but why should any part of the potential storyline have been changed just because they were updating the appearance of the game?
Based on what you're saying a lot more than just Cobb should have been RFG'd.
Oh, and StarEye, Cobb isn't a pirate. Which is actually even more reason why him being in the Scumm Bar is funny.
It doesn't matter whether the re-released LOOM™ or not. The whole matter is it was never a marketing point. Sure it might have attracted someone to look into the game, but that was not the point of it.
The point was that it was a joke. It doesn't matter what the game was. It wouldn't have mattered if it was referencing the text-only adventure Labyrinth. The point was that it was parodying the idea of in-game advertisement. It was never intended to be a literal marketing ploy.
Regarding the LeChuck-is-Guybrush's-brother scenario, where do you come off saying Luke never said, "Nooo!!"? Somebody needs to watch that scene again. And...wait...did you just say that the reference is acceptable because it's not a verbatim quote? Being his brother and his father is enough differentiation for the reference to be allowed??
Again, I'm still failing to understand your so-called "logic" here. You argue that just because they "updated" the graphics (debatable), updated the music, and added voices that they should have changed in-game events too?
It didn't affect the plot, but why should any part of the potential storyline have been changed just because they were updating the appearance of the game?
Based on what you're saying a lot more than just Cobb should have been RFG'd.
Oh, and StarEye, Cobb isn't a pirate. Which is actually even more reason why him being in the Scumm Bar is funny.
They say no matter what forum you hang out at, no matter what you say, there will be a guy who would come and overthrow your every argument, actually not being lazy to go into detail and even look things up to prove that he's right and that you're wrong.
I take everything I said back only by one simple argument point: SE wasn't a remake. It was an update. And this says it all. It's just an awesome-seemed update to the original game, that's why it got me so raging around, I guess.
Furthermore I stay by what I said before: I didn't like it more than the original. It didn't make me buy the game just for this and I surely don't regret it. And let's leave the Loom joke alone, for Cobb's sake.
Btw, here is the Sam&Max idol joke from SMI. In the original version (first file), you can see them at the bottomleft corner of the screen with the giant monkey head. They are subtle because Max is mounted on Sam's shoulders, making the whole thing seem like an idol.
In SE, however, since Sam&Max are no longer part of LA's games (thanks of pointing it out), they got replaced by Purple Tentacle. But this time, being given the fact that we all know this game quite well for now, it's not the same kind of joke anymore. It's just funny. Back then it was wtfunny.
It's a matter of opinion, not fact. There is no right or wrong in opinion. The fact of it is though that I challenged your opinion and you've said nothing to support or further it.
I challenged your opinion because I didn't understand the logic of it. Obviously things are getting a bit out of hand and I don't want to actually make myself seem like "that guy". So I will let it drop.
You don't have to revoke your opinion. Just understand that I don't understand why you hold it. :rolleyes:
Just like I don't understand why you assume that everyone here is familiar (enough) with DoTT for that reference to be acceptable. They could have just left the joke out altogether. But I digress.
Anyway...you sure do double post and needlessly quote entire posts a lot. :rolleyes:
It's a matter of opinion, not fact. There is no right or wrong in opinion. The fact of it is though that I challenged your opinion and you've said nothing to support or further it.
I didn't have to "challenge" back yours because I admitted being wrong after seeing as we mainly agree on it. For the following reasons:
1) I didn't know there was also a LOOM re-release, therefore keeping the Loom joke does make sense.
2) I incorrectly called it a "remake" while SE was actually an "update" of the original game, implying the fact that it was actually the original game itself, just glazed with up-to-date features.
3) I just pointed out the Sam&Max joke, but even this whipped my butt. There is no more Sam nor Max in there, it's DOTT now. So taking back the "LA keeps outdated jokes and cuts off recent ones" part. Thou I'll never forgive them kicking out the stump joke.
Comments
The GUI (Graphical User Interface) in the "old" version was NOT the MI2 GUI. They are similar but not the same.
The GUI used was the enhanced CD version GUI (circa 1992).
As a player you might not notice the differences without a fine-toothed comb, but as an amateur game developer whose personal favorite game of all time is The Secret of Monkey Island the differences are glaring to me. I do understand the argument that the prior versions of the game were "better" though. The first version I played was the enhanced CD version, so to me that's the better one, but to each his own.
Also Cobb was brought up as a negative point of the SE?? :eek: I'm sorry but frankly I would have been furious if Cobb had been removed from the game. Just because the joke is no longer relevant (opinion) doesn't mean it should be removed. Sure you could say it was just blatant advertising, but that was precisely the joke, so if you're griping about that you've missed the entire point. The whole bit with "<ADVERTISEMENT>" flashing at the bottom of the screen was a parody of in-game advertisement. Yes, due to the fact that it was in-game advertisement, to an extent it was its own antithesis. However, it was still a joke.
Besides, LOOM™ is still one of the greatest things LA has ever produced. And I insist on using the ™ there because, although I'm sure you probably missed that too, the usage of the symbol throughout the game was another joke.
Personally, I didn't say that advertising one game inside another one (what's the term for that again?) is bad. Did you see all the DotT vs. Sam&Max shtick back in 1993-94? It was mad, and even through people didn't play one or another of these games, the way it was presented was still funny.
Loom, on the other hand, is an outdated game. I'm sorry if this sounds pejorative, but I've never really enjoyed it, mostly because it was already based on a novel of mediocre popularity (that's all I know about Loom, ask that Scumm Bar guy about the rest). Sure, I've played it. Did I remember it? Nope.
The problem with this is that you remake the game. So you remake it flesh and bones, i.e. every single plot frangment, every since thing stays the same. Then explain to me the following.
a) How come the stump joke is gone? Personally, I liked it way more that the Loom guy joke.
b) You redraw faces. If they're already too cartoonish on close ups, least make them open their mouth when they talk. Or draw them natural, realistic. It looks like they're stuck midway and are neither.
c) There is a small Sam and Max idol at the bottomleft corner of the screen with the giant Monkey Head when Guybrush q-tips its ear. How come nobody's talking about that?
I am open to changes, but don't release it like this. People who play this and say: "Well, it's not the original, but it's acceptable because it's better than nothing" almost make me cry.
Don't say you didn't notice the obvious costumes of them in the dressing shop in LCR. And in CMI they were action figure dolls IIRC.
Also, it's great that joke is alluded at in CMI with the "ask me about Grim Fandango" fellow
(Also the Floppy joke is gone because it's based on the CD version, where it was already removed. No idea why they couldn't just ask you to implent disk [add large number here] but whatever...)
Well there you go, see, that's another brilliant example of a well concealed joke. When Grim was nearing its release and they inserted that into CMI, it was funny at the time. Today, if you repeat the same joke, I'm sure recent generations (those who didn't play games yet when that came out) won't appreciate it the same way. Though unlike Loom, I was old enough to understand it back then and got a good laugh of Calavera sitting at Blondebeard's.
That. Or they could've allude to its updated version in CMI where guybrush sticks his head out of the stump and says something stupid. The funniest would've been MI1 Guybrush sticking his head in the stump hole and say: "Gee, there's some crypt with a moaning ghost there, not sure I want to bother her". I'd have found it hilarious.
Uzr> *insert senseless sounds of revoltion at your dismissal of Loom* Loom is a beautiful game, sure it's a bit marmite in the sense that some love it, others hate it... but it's still so different to anything else that it has to be acknowledged.
based on a novel of mediocre popularity - Er... what? Either i've been missing something all these years or... yeah.
As for your other points:
a) How come the stump joke is gone? Personally, I liked it way more that the Loom guy joke. - Cd version removed it, sad but true. It was gone looong before this edition. Apparently a lot of people didn't get the joke initially, but how true that is....
b) You redraw faces. If they're already too cartoonish on close ups, least make them open their mouth when they talk. Or draw them natural, realistic. It looks like they're stuck midway and are neither. - Yeah, wasn't a fan of the cartoony zoomed in faces. Elaine just looks... odd and Guybrush's hair.. oh god the hair...
c) There is a small Sam and Max idol at the bottomleft corner of the screen with the giant Monkey Head when Guybrush q-tips its ear. How come nobody's talking about that?
- Lucasarts no longer have the rights to S&M, so it was replaced with a tentacle effigy. I thought that was sort of cute actually, like "we acknowledge there was a joke here, so we substituted"
I did wonder how they'd skirt around that issue.
It was interesting to see secret reskinned, because that's really all it was, a reskinning. Bits worked, other bits didn't but the voice acting was a lovely touch. Gamers these days EXPECT voice acting, you noticed that? It'd have been nice to be able to have the original graphics with the voices but I don't know how they'd have implemented that.. timing etc...
Meaning being I learned about the novel AFTER I played the game. Was this a children story btw? I never got that either.
But good enough to be inserted in the third game. Remember rabid jaguars?
You know what I think about it? I think LA decided to make a subtle reference in the remake, hoping that all these legal ppl would be too lame to figure it out. But it was there for quite a long time, and what bothers me the most is - how come they appear there three years before their first game release? Was this Purcell messing with everybody or what? lol
You know Sam and Max is based on a comic, don't you, and one that was created by Steve Purcell long before the game came out.
Who cares about the new kids? Le'mme be confused.
Two is already enough to start a petition against LA's remakes
Well, er, maybe Steve Purcell himself put it there? I'm pretty sure he was an artist at LucasArts at that time.
Was he doing computer sprites too?
When I first played Curse, I had never even heard of Grim Fandango. I still laughed a bit because I thought it was rather funny that there was a dead guy sitting in the chicken restaurant. Same with the Loom guy in Secret. I had never heard of Loom until he started talking about it, but I though the joke was hilarious.
Although I think my absolute favorite thing about the SE is how Dominic Armato's "I'm Guybrush Threepwood and I want to be a pirate!" sounded exactly like it did in my head all those years ago. It's almost kinda creepy.
I first played it in 2005, I think, so I don't think it would've made much difference.
To replace Steve Purcell's excellent, funny, dark and strange art direction with sub-DeviantArt cartoons is just horrible. I wasn't really a fan of the move towards cartoon style back when it happened in CMI, but at least that was competently done. The art in this game was just a hideous mess. And considering the art in the original game was fantastic, it was really kind of annoying.
I'm pretty sure it's not just nostalgia talking, as I sent an artist friend who has never played an LEC game in his life images of the close-ups from both versions, as well as the box art, and his reaction was general disgust. Actually, his exact words were "Wow. They really perfected the 'dollar-store coloring book cover' aesthetic."
Which really hit it on the head. The game looks cheap. The original version pushed the limits of the system it was made for to the highest artistic standards it could reach. The 'Special Edition' did FAR less with far more resources. Even looking at those pirate close-ups posted earlier in the thread you see the colors in the old version really sing, despite the limited palette, whereas the colors in the new one are pretty uniformly muddy and gray, like something colored using the dodge and burn tool by an amateur in Photoshop.
Hell, several of the background images weren't even finished! This should have been called "The Secret of Monkey Island: Amateur Hour".
The voicework isn't enough of a plus to balance it out for me because, as I've said I'm mainly a visual person. Also, what I've seen of it sounds choppy and awkward. And I'm not really strongly attached to the voice cast of CMI anyway.
I'm mildly interested in picking up the game for some of the mods people are doing to fix the numerous graphical problems (and allow speech with the old graphics), but I'd actually feel bad about monetarily supporting this project, and possibly allowing them to wreak the same damage on Monkey Island 2's fantastic artwork...
But listening to him talk about it right now, considering you're an Xbox fan and this is your first MI game... I dunno, to me it seems kinda strange. Strange in a way that in this context, the joke itself, no matter how much meme it contains, just doesn't fit anymore. Would you have at least replaced it by the same guy saying: "Hey, remember Loom? Ah, the graphics, ah the sound... Not like they make 'em today!" I'd have shared a laugh, honestly.
But this... and like that... and this... ughh!
Of course not. This is rubbish. In reality, I'm also awaiting any patch that would at least fix the damn issue with Guybrush's legs. But I'd dig any patch or mod willingly improving its graphical characteristics.
I completely disagree with the argument that the reference not being current means it should have been removed. I have never played Grim Fandango. Ever. But I still thought the in-joke was funny. I still understood and accepted it for what it was.
Sort of like how Sam & Max showed up outside the monkey head. I never played that game until a few years ago. I missed out on a lot of games growing up, but it doesn't mean these types of references just made me go, "WTF I AM NEVER PLAYING THIS DUMB GAME AGAIN!!1" like you seem to think Cobb must be doing.
For the record, Purcell was working at LA as an artist during the time the original SoMI™ was made. He is responsible for Guybrush's name in fact. Whether he personally drew Sam & Max into that background I don't know though.
I understand the argument that Cobb was not one of the funniest jokes in the game. However, SoMI™ and LOOM™ were the only adventure games I grew up playing. I couldn't tell you how many times I've played SoMI™...and yet when I do start up a new game I still enjoy going in and talking to Cobb. Even though I know what he'll say, I know how it all plays out...still enjoyable for me.
That said though, I guess the only reason I brought it up is because I am completely and utterly failing to see why you think including Cobb in the SE was a bad idea. Just because people don't get the references doesn't mean they should be stripped out. If they did that then half the game would have to be taken out.
What about that bit with the troll and the red herring? Did you immediately know that the troll (after he took his mask off) was actually George Lucas? Coz if you didn't then surely the troll should have been removed entirely.
That type of thinking...I just don't understand.
I really hope they get rid of some extra palm trees on Monkey Island, fix the hanging corpse's legs length and make at least a shadow for the palm tree Guybrush hits with the see-saw... But, I get too carried away, this is SE we're talking about
Okay...
My WHOLE point with that Cobb guy at the bar was that since they redrew him, and he says the exact same things as before, the joke it was intended to be turned into a reminiscence instead. Kinda like instead of just laughing you'd see him and go "Awww, I remember that... Oh yeah, back then it was funny". I'm trying to say this ever since, maybe I'm just not explaining my point clearly enough, I dunno.
Now pretend you NEVER EVER played MI. SE is your first game. You go into a bar, you talk to this Cobb guy, he tells you this... Okay, wtf is Loom? Well, maybe you've heard of it, but... This is not funny. He's just babbling about the game, an advertisement... Okay. Well, moving on. That would at least have been my reaction if I were to play SE as my first MI game.
But on personal notice, I liked that joke. Back then. I still liked it a little now, but having played SE with a rather critical than relaxed mind, I sorted out the fact that maybe inserting some new context into that would've been funny. Picture the same Cobb, with the LOOM sticker. But when you come to see him, he'd go instead: "LOOM is much better than your silly internet games RPG Gaia stuff... Oh, so you played Tales, eh? Well, LOOM is better!" You know, pretending that he doesn't care about today's games, but using recent terms, such as: "So they let you go online... Well, internet is evil, LOOM doesn't do that!" You know, this kind of thing.
Then it would've worked imo. Actually, a lot would've worked had it been a remake/update to today's trends. But being just a remake, I fail to see how it is "better" than the original (thou I wouldn't even call it equal to it).
If they do that, I'd even be willing to replay.
The new character designs were for the most part pretty bad too, Guybrush tragically suffered worst from this.
The new voices and music were of a very high quality though, even if a lot of the characters sounded wrong to me after reading the lines for so long in my head.
If they do make a Monkey Island 2 special edition I hope the success of the first one encourages them to stop outsourcing graphics to Singapore and they do some proper non cardboard cutout animation inhouse. They also need to use the original background paintings in some form, even just as a starting point.
For instance, in MI2. "I am you brother", and "noooooooo". I guess these things shouldn't exist, since we all know there ARE people who has never seen a Star Wars movie whatsoever, and not know about this scene, no matter how obscure it might be. SOMI SE was made for the fans of the games, obviously, and I think it's entirely fair to assume that people will get the joke/reference. Personally, I found it even more funny how Cobb talked about high-resolution graphics and all that stuff. I thought the joke has aged well, and actually works even better now that there's another dimension to it, simply BECAUSE it's a reference to what can be considered an ancient game today.
Also, it's the actual whole anachronism nature of it that's meant to be funny. Not that it's actually a reference to Loom. It's a misplaced element in a pirate game, just like so many other elements are, like the Grog/Coke machine. That's the joke. If you don't get that, then you missed the actual joke. And therefore, what product it's referring to is not actually important. It's the fact that there's an in-game advertisement, with a scarred pirate talking about a computer game. Don't see how that's not relevant.
I think that joke is still funny for new players, and even if it isn't they'll just shrug it off and ignore it.
I did laugh to Loom joke first time I played SMI. And I don't think that it's outdated as a joke. You can buy Loom from Steam, because they re-released it week before they released SMI:SE.
I bought Loom and two Indiana Jones adventures at the same time with SMI:SE, because I didn't have PC versions of those old classics and I my Amiga went Kaputt years ago. Actually considering the looks of Loom by modern standards, I think his sales pitch about Loom's groundbreaking qualities is even funnier.
Ah! And there we go again, as I said: if you make a game strictly for the fans (like myself), please don't disgrace it with other things aforementioned. I can understand the reminiscence of the Loom guy joke, of course, in this context. But then, make him open his mouth when he talks, and don't draw faces cartoonish, and I'd dig that.
Why nobody explained this to me earlier? My whole debate is useless now...
Well, if they did and if fans enjoyed, then it must make sense.
Then it IS kinda funny... new resolution... hehehe
The point was that it was a joke. It doesn't matter what the game was. It wouldn't have mattered if it was referencing the text-only adventure Labyrinth. The point was that it was parodying the idea of in-game advertisement. It was never intended to be a literal marketing ploy.
Regarding the LeChuck-is-Guybrush's-brother scenario, where do you come off saying Luke never said, "Nooo!!"? Somebody needs to watch that scene again. And...wait...did you just say that the reference is acceptable because it's not a verbatim quote? Being his brother and his father is enough differentiation for the reference to be allowed??
Again, I'm still failing to understand your so-called "logic" here. You argue that just because they "updated" the graphics (debatable), updated the music, and added voices that they should have changed in-game events too?
It didn't affect the plot, but why should any part of the potential storyline have been changed just because they were updating the appearance of the game?
Based on what you're saying a lot more than just Cobb should have been RFG'd.
Oh, and StarEye, Cobb isn't a pirate. Which is actually even more reason why him being in the Scumm Bar is funny.
They say no matter what forum you hang out at, no matter what you say, there will be a guy who would come and overthrow your every argument, actually not being lazy to go into detail and even look things up to prove that he's right and that you're wrong.
I take everything I said back only by one simple argument point: SE wasn't a remake. It was an update. And this says it all. It's just an awesome-seemed update to the original game, that's why it got me so raging around, I guess.
Furthermore I stay by what I said before: I didn't like it more than the original. It didn't make me buy the game just for this and I surely don't regret it. And let's leave the Loom joke alone, for Cobb's sake.
In SE, however, since Sam&Max are no longer part of LA's games (thanks of pointing it out), they got replaced by Purple Tentacle. But this time, being given the fact that we all know this game quite well for now, it's not the same kind of joke anymore. It's just funny. Back then it was wtfunny.
I challenged your opinion because I didn't understand the logic of it. Obviously things are getting a bit out of hand and I don't want to actually make myself seem like "that guy". So I will let it drop.
You don't have to revoke your opinion. Just understand that I don't understand why you hold it. :rolleyes:
Just like I don't understand why you assume that everyone here is familiar (enough) with DoTT for that reference to be acceptable. They could have just left the joke out altogether. But I digress.
Anyway...you sure do double post and needlessly quote entire posts a lot. :rolleyes:
1) I didn't know there was also a LOOM re-release, therefore keeping the Loom joke does make sense.
2) I incorrectly called it a "remake" while SE was actually an "update" of the original game, implying the fact that it was actually the original game itself, just glazed with up-to-date features.
3) I just pointed out the Sam&Max joke, but even this whipped my butt. There is no more Sam nor Max in there, it's DOTT now. So taking back the "LA keeps outdated jokes and cuts off recent ones" part. Thou I'll never forgive them kicking out the stump joke.
oh hai hao do i @sum1?
No really, show me and I'll stop double posting.