A Question Regarding Telltale's Digital Distribution Format
I thought I'd bring this question up in light of Assassin's Creed II's latest DRM scandle. My question is this:
Does Telltale Games lose any money by allowing their users to download multiple copies (now PC and mac) of their games and use them on various machines? Could a user actually play one copy of their game on one machine while simultaneously playing it on another?
What's Telltale's stance on their format of digital distribution? Does their form of DRM work to their advantage? Also, what's your view on how they distribute their games?
Let me also add, I'm well aware of the fact that piracy happens no matter the DRM, and that DRM ultimately sets-back the legitimate consumer.
Does Telltale Games lose any money by allowing their users to download multiple copies (now PC and mac) of their games and use them on various machines? Could a user actually play one copy of their game on one machine while simultaneously playing it on another?
What's Telltale's stance on their format of digital distribution? Does their form of DRM work to their advantage? Also, what's your view on how they distribute their games?
Let me also add, I'm well aware of the fact that piracy happens no matter the DRM, and that DRM ultimately sets-back the legitimate consumer.
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Personally I believe this kind of a distribution is really appropriate. Fast and reliable. I've got to admit I shared serials of Sam and Max Season One with one of my adventure-loving friend, but it was after I re-bought Season One for 5$.
Well, it's kind of about trust. It's hard to see something like that in other genres of gaming. I guess adventure gaming is special like that.
You could already do that with just the PC version. So unless you mean it will be a problem because they wanted people to have to pay twice if they owned both types of computers, that shouldn't cost them money, no.
However, I remember as a kid, I used to share games with friends at school, and that was just the accepted way of doing things. Most likely because the internet was not as wide and fast as it is today, that our form of piracy then was never really a problem.
However, even with physical products still being produced not just for the PC but of course, it still remains the #1 method of distributing products to consoles, this form of "sharing" can and still does occur. Does this sort of "illegal" product distribution cause any wide-spread concern for the studios? Say if one person had one copy and shared it with 10 friends, and assume that each friend had one copy of something and shared it with 10 different friends?
I'm still really curious, because TTG's form of digital distribution works on an honour system of sorts. Do they expect to lose money in this methodology, but for a better cause than just over-protecting their games?
I also understand the one comment about unfairly pitting one genre against another, as one is more popular than the other. I am more interested in knowing whether a lack of super-secure DRM would still provide beneficial results to game companies in general.
But it's possible that the people who say "hey, would you let me play your game" and borrow it from a friend might go "wow, I liked that game, I want more of these/I want to support the company that made it".
In the first case, if your friend has different tastes, you might need to buy the game since they don't have it. In the second one, your friend owns the other game too but you want to buy it anyways.
Does that make up for the fact you can share it? Well, I'd say if their limited about is something like 10, how is that different from other time of sharing groups? You know, like you've got ten friends, they each buy a video game, play it, then bring it and each person takes a different games home and plays it, and so on.
In the end, 10 people bought one game each and yet played 10. And these things aren't that uncommon, my brother was in such a group, they actually even shared the consoles themselves at first, which was more restrictive (you could only have one console at the time and there were more people than consoles) while also allowing them to play console games period since none of them could afford to purchase a console on their own.
I don't think the way they do it is too bad. It would really suck if you computer crashed and you had to replace it, but couldn't play any of the old games anymore because you used the activation on the previous computer you had.
And it doesn't look like TTG isn't doing too bad either...
I think you're thinking of Sins Of A Solar Empire. Or Demigod.
TTG's DRM is basically SecuROM with a 20-ish activation limit. The thing is, I haven't heard any problem with this DRM outside someone failing to get the launcher open on Linux and Wine. Plus, you'll probably get better service from TTG than from (for example) Microsoft if you do run out of activations.
Personally, I have no objections to this DRM. I've yet to have SecuROM problems and I can't honestly see how to exceed that 20 activation limit within a decade without sharing the serial out far & wide.
I hear what ye mean. look at Assassin's Creed 2. The DRM on it requires you to be connected to the internet whilst playing a game. So if your internet drops you're going back to the last checkpoint. That to me is unacceptable, even Steam lets you play your games offline!!
I think things like Steam that are not just good for the industry (copy protection, multiplayer framework, DLC distribution) and the consumer as well with Steam's obvious benefits (sales, access to games anywhere) could well be what'll put a lot more energy into the PC market.
Also if onLive works it could kill piracy completely on the PC if it's got a reasonable price tag behind it
I also hate to admit, but I almost feel like I'm stealing the new mac versions of their games. I mean, they put time and effort into researching/developing a mac deployment system, and they don't charge us for it. Would it be beneficial to charge for these extras?
The whole idea behind sharing games is to experience something mutually. I suppose on a wide-scale torrent network, the whole concept of mutual sharing is mistaken as piracy. The amount of torrents out there that advocate purchasing the illegally-obtained product is quite common. Ultimately, in the end, the exact duplicate of the product is not lost on the seeder's side of things. That means, the morality of placing the digital product to the computer's trash bin and then purchasing it legally is compromised.
DRM research, I agree, is often a waste of time. I often think that placing one good piece of unobtrusive-in any form DRM to make sure the game is played legitimately, should be acceptable.
It would also be interesting to know whether a physical product with extra features especially designed for a DVD or bluray video etc. without an online-DRM, is more susceptible to piracy than it's DRM counter-part? By this, I mean, TTG's physical DVDs that they ship out to those who've purchased the complete seasons, are pirated as much or any more than their digital copies?
What if TTG were to hypothetically distribute their games on DVDs from the get-go, say, they decided to produce a side-project that didn't depend upon episodic content. If the only thing they put on this disc was the necessity to have the disc in while playing, would this be any more pirated than a digital counterpart with DRM?
In order to not leave this post open ended, I'm interested in knowing whether the argument of DRM being a problem for legitimate customers, is valid. I've read points and counter-points regarding the necessity of multiple-levels of DRM on digital masters, but never really any solid evidence that this allows companies to make more money. Companies are obviously aware that they will lose a certain amount of money due to piracy, as it has become commonplace for all digital products. However, what logical conclusion is there for the consumer? I am sure we all dislike having to purchase multiple versions of something for some awful reason (such as DRM) or contacting support in case of DRM issues, so what is the answer for our needs as much as the companies?
Would anyone here be willing to accept a "cloud-based" system of loading/unloading all your products onto your PCs, with unique ID-structure forms of doing so? And perhaps if a newer version of whatever product you have is formed, that you would be guaranteed to pay a lesser price than a full version? Would this sort of structure, not unlike Steam or even the Apple store, be acceptable by our society? Sure, there would be other downsides, but would you be willing to operate in an OS environment that was handled in this way?
Thanks to all for reading, and I hope to read more of your insight!
But I did enjoy it
A game will get pirated if people want to pirate it, whatever protection/DRM is on it's irrelevant. I can actually guarantee you pirated copies of Assassin's Creed II for PC floating about shortly after launch day (if not before it) because the DRM's so nefarious that people are just going to want to crack it for the sport of it.
To really beat piracy on PC you have to give the consumer value and make them feel like they're recieving a good product/service. That's what you get here at Telltale with the free collectors DVD's, plus instant access to your games from anywhere and all the Telltale-y goodness they throw at you in between all this (discounts and promo's go a long way). Same story goes for my other favourite Steam, Steam's actually a good application now and a joy to use (most of the time) coupled with good service and actual usefulness
Telltale games and Steam games all get cracked eventually, but if I were to go out there and make a bold guess on instinct i'd say that Telltale and Steam games (in particular multiplayer affairs and all Valve titles) have a lower rate of piracy than other titles, and I think a lot of it (if i'm right) is down to loyality from customers and providing good services.
Also let me say this. If I needed to play Assassin's Creed II on my PC (I played it on Xbox anyways though) I wouldn't buy it genuine but download a pirated copy, 2 reasons
1. On my internet connection it would be absolutely unplayable
2. This kind of thing can't become the norm with boxed products
And it makes me sad that if Ubisoft keep this (and they plan to for now for all their PC titles) that they're gonna lose revenue...and of course blame piracy. but the fact of the matter is that the pirates will be doing a better job of supporting the game than the Devs/Publisher whenever the security's cracked
While I am willing to forego SecuROM for games from Telltale (seeing as it is the best implementation of the system yet and for the fact that I can remove the SecuROM files from my computer quite easily) and while I do appreciate the fact that I can have both the Digital and Physical copies of a game (which is extremely rare, so Telltale should at least be commended for that), each with their respective DRM/Copy Protections, if this thread holds true:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15110
More specifically the post from avistew:
then I'm sorry, I simply cannot accept this. Let's completely ignore the fact (for the moment) that NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON from Telltale ever mentioned that the Wallace & Gromit DVD would use a DRM scheme similar to digital downloads and concentrate on the system itself.
One of the reasons I enjoy games from Telltale is the fact that I can play games at release through Digital means and could always purchase a Physical copy later on down the track that required nothing more than the DVD, no online authentication at all. I could take the discs with me when I travel or even take them off the shelf and install them if my internet connection decided to crap out.
With W&G, that's no longer the case. Now, instead of OWNING the licence (let's remember: we're not buying games, rather than buying the licence/rights to play them) we're only SUBSCRIBING to them and I for one will not accept that. Should Telltale ever disband in the future for whatever reason, I can safely play both Bone games, Season 1 and 2 of Sam & Max and Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People but can no longer play Wallace & Gromit and POTENTIALLY Tales of Monkey Island and future Telltale games. If it comes down to that I can guarantee you that even the most honest of consumers will crack your games just so they have a chance to play a game they BOUGHT the licence for.
I honestly hope someone from Telltale can comment on this because this is nothing short stringing along your fans and then promptly stabbing them in the back when they support you. I hope that Wallace & Gromit was nothing more than an experiment and Telltale will have the decency to revert back to their old system. If that is not the case however, if this is the future of Telltale Games then I'm sorry, I will no longer be throwing my support behind you.
As for the future of DRM on disks, it's hard to say. I'm a pretty strong proponent of the disk based DRM, but there are new technical difficulties on the horizon that we are currently researching.
Thus far, you are the only person that has actually complained about the issue outside of the company.
Actually, I'm not happy with it either. I haven't complained because I didn't order the W&G disc, but I know I won't now (I was waiting for Tales to be released so I could have them shipped together and save on shipping).
I fail to see the point of paying for shipping for something I could mostly burn myself. I like playing my games on computers that don't have the Internet, too, and an activation would be impossible on these. And unless the activation code is included with the DVD, I don't like having to go look for it, although that last thing is pretty minor.
Honestly, I really liked the fact your games came with DVDs. The online version, just like the virtual console on the Wii for instance, isn't something we actually own. It's something we're allowed to use but that's still owned by you guys. The DVD version is something we do own, that we can take along on trips and play where there is no Internet, that we can just pop in and play with logging online to check our activation code, etc.
If the game in the DVD is the same as the game online, what's the point? Sure there is bonus on the DVD, but then make a DVD with just bonus and poeple who want the games can just burn their own DVD and have the same thing.
I realise people are always in a hurry to have the DVD, but personnally I'm not going to be in a hurry if the DVD is just a burned version of the same thing. It wouldn't feel like a DVD with a game on it. I'd still feel tied to the Internet. There is no way I want to spend money on shipping to get something like that.
I hope your next DVDs won't be like that
My copy hasn't arrived yet (still shipping), so I can't check exactly how much additional worth there is yet...
Thanks!
You're always very good about trying to make us happy, and that's appreciated. If you find yourself with no other alternative as you say, I will be disappointed, but at least I know you wouldn't have just been ignoring people's opinions.
*goes back waiting for his DVD to arrive*
Well, I'm glad I didn't waste the shipping charge to get the W&G DVD. If it's the same authorization, I see no value in it at all. I am not enticed to buy specifically from Telltale if the disc copy of the game is just the downloaded copy. I've never thought the value of the DVD was derived from the sensation of dropping a disc into a tray.
The DVDs are a major deciding factor for me between buying from Telltale directly and getting it through another distributor altogether, or getting another internet-distributed game. I've passed on somewhat promising adventure titles in the past because I felt like I got more value from the Telltale releases.
2010 is a promising year for games. Telltale's been a pretty high priority in the past compared to the products of other, equally desirable developers due to 1) The excellent customer support and community efforts, and 2) A disc-based authentication at the end of the season.
Just wanted to lay out where one(1) so far loyal Telltale customer thinks the value of the DVDs happens to be.
Chalk me up as another person who strongly favors the status quo.
I'm really, sincerely hoping that's a possibility. I'd been set on ordering the W&G and Tales DVDs together once the latter was available for preorder. But now ...
Interesting posts these are.
I actually had no idea that W&G required online activation, otherwise I would have been standing in the line of people who support of disk-based DRM. I understand the reason for changing it in this case (W&G was behind schedule and corners were cut to get it out faster), but like someone said before me, I would've preferred to wait for those extra months in order to have it done the right way, and I'd say that applies for ToMI as well. Please don't go the online activation route for the ToMI DVD. And as far as the W&G DVDs go, might I request that if and when you release a PC/Mac version of the DVD, you perform the "major technical overhaul" required to remove the online activation? It might be asking a lot, but I know that us fans would sure appreciate it.
Thanks!
Having said that, the installer totally freaked out because I had them. All icons vanished from the desktop, but all games (excluding muzzle that was) were completely intact. All 4 uninstallers remained too (yes, including muzzle that *was* gone). So I uninstalled all 4 episodes, and checked all 4 newly installed episodes were fine... but none of them would launch.
So I uninstalled the whole package, then installed, and now it works fine. Still; it's odd.
Evidently, Ubisoft's DRM authentication servers went down on Sunday and might still be down right now. I'm not sure of all the details, but I think it was something affecting people trying to play Assassin's Creed II in Europe.
I'm glad TTG isn't requiring a constant online connection.
The only way to get round this was to ironically donwload a pirates crack
According to Ubisoft's Tweets it was a Denial of Service attack on the Servers. The Servers were running, but 5% of the players could not connect anymore.
Also they say there's no working crack yet.
[Edit] Obviously not prepared to wave the white flag yet. Imagine what will happen when the US release happens...
It's more of a console game to me so i played it on Xbox see
Ironically enough for Assassin's Creed II, a crack has been released. A simple torrent search I ran showed something with the following files:
"Torrent Contents
- AssassinsCreedIIGame.exe 33 Mb
- AssassinsCreedII.exe 1 Mb
- UbisoftGameLauncher.exe 1 Mb
- CrackONLY.nfo 0 Mb
- Assassins.Creed.2(not-the-whole-filename-I-dun-wanna-get-in-trouble-on here).iso 6,476 Mb"
So as you all can see, Ubisoft's efforts are going to waste. (btw, I'm not downloading that, I was showing that Ubisoft is retarded for their ridiculous DRM.)
EDIT: You know... I don't have Assassin's Creed II, but if I did, I would probably go out of my way to try to find a crack so I wouldn't need to connect to the net to play it. Heck, I already downloaded a Steam-free copy of SMI:SE because it's my only Steam game and I don't want it bothering me, not to mention that every DRM'd music file I've bought from an online music store has been burned and re-ripped to remove it, and every ebook I buy from Amazon has it's DRM removed so I can add the book series name and volume number to the title (so my wife's Kindle sorts it properly.)
Yes, yes, the line I'm walking is morally gray. I admit that. But my point is that there are people who will go out of their way to break DRM just because a software has it, when they have no intention of ever redistributing it. Therefore, as Harald said, spending more than what is reasonable on DRM is just a waste of money.
EDIT AGAIN: ooh. I also want to add that I prefer not to have to insert discs all the time when I play games, so I really do appreciate Telltale offering digital downloads. They're wonderful.
It looks like Valve pulled Assassin's Creed II from Steam in the UK for "business discussions" related to concerns regarding Ubisoft's "customer service." Perhaps Valve feels it can negotiate a better deal for themselves if Ubisoft wants to sell their game on Steam? Ubisoft has said this isn't related to the DRM, but after the whole server fiasco, I say it has to be related, directly or indirectly.
(500 Posts!)
Oh, and when I got Neverwinter Nights 2, it completely messed up my computer! And apparently that was SecuROM.
But hey, if I buy something and it works I'm not fussed - but I do most of my gaming on the xbox and wii nowadays so I don't suppose it matters..
On one interesting note, I recently bought 2 copies of ToMI on dvd - one the deluxe edition and one the normal, so in my little collection I can have both case versions - as I don't have to pay anything for either of these actual discs (excluding the deluxe extras, obviously) - am I cheating TTG? because I have the game twice, does that mean I have twice the number of activations? Or do they all run on the same serial number anyway?
I only ask out of interest, I'm not giving the second disc away or selling it or anything
EDIT:
Also, I was considering getting the W&G disc as a present for a friend for his birthday, would the standard practice to be buy the full series again for a new set of serial numbers? I'm confused
On second thought DRM annoys me it's too complicated!
But anyway, aside from PC games, which I really don't give a crap about unless I don't have to get out of my house, I always prefer to have boxed versions of games. In fact, the only reason I have physical copies of games I could easily download anyway (either legally or trough less legal means) is for bragging rights.
Bragging rights!
Hence, the only reason I got the deluxe edition of ToMI.
There is now from what i'm hearing. Bit naive of Ubi to think that this would hold longer than a lock of weeks
And just to clarify I played it on Xbox, I downloaded nothing, this stuff just interests me