Everyone on this thread needs to stop being lame and go read Religious Tolerance or something. Maybe watch a movie. The classics are fun. Can't go wrong with a good Hitchcock movie! Rear Window or North By Northwest, maybe.
Then stop for a minute, respect other people's beliefs and stop being an ass. Srsly and for reals.
Thanks for explaining!
But if the Bible is partly wrong, so you don't really know which parts are true and which aren't, and you have a personal relationship with god anyway, why do you need the book at all? Wouldn't what god communicates to you be enough?
I didn't say that it's "wrong," I said that some of it wasn't meant to be taken literally; and that, in parts, it doesn't make sense unless you consider that the original writers of the manuscripts wrote from the perspective of someone living thousands of years ago in a different culture than we live in, and that that must also be taken into account.
But yes, you might say that it's enough for God alone to speak to us. In fact, once upon a time, there was no compilation of translated writing that the average person could read. At one time, the only copies of Biblical texts were in their original language. From what I understand, the reason why the King James Version is so renowned is because it was the first publicly available English-translated version of the Bible. Back when the Christian church first started, people just met in each others houses to fellowship and stuff. Many of the books of the New Testament are letters from prominent people in the early Christian church (mainly Paul) who wrote to different churches praising them or giving advice about issues that they were having.
But anyway, the answer is "yes." God can lead someone without required that they read the Bible, but it doesn't hurt.
I didn't say that it's "wrong," I said that some of it wasn't meant to be taken literally; and that, in parts, it doesn't make sense unless you consider that the original writers of the manuscripts wrote from the perspective of someone living thousands of years ago in a different culture than we live in, and that that must also be taken into account.
Where does that outdated culture end and the relevant stuff begin?
Thanks for explaining!
But if the Bible is partly wrong, so you don't really know which parts are true and which aren't, and you have a personal relationship with god anyway, why do you need the book at all? Wouldn't what god communicates to you be enough?
I didn't say that it's "wrong," I said that some of it wasn't meant to be taken literally; and that, in parts, it doesn't make sense unless you consider that the original writers of the manuscripts wrote from the perspective of someone living thousands of years ago in a different culture than we live in, and that that must also be taken into account.
But yes, you might say that it's enough for God alone to speak to us. In fact, once upon a time, there was no compilation of translated writing that the average person could read. At one time, the only copies of Biblical texts were in their original language. From what I understand, the reason why the King James Version is so renowned is because it was the first publicly available English-translated version of the Bible. Back when the Christian church first started, people just met in each others houses to fellowship and stuff. Many of the books of the New Testament are letters from prominent people in the early Christian church (mainly Paul) who wrote to different churches praising them or giving advice about issues that they were having.
But anyway, the answer is "yes." God can lead someone without required that they read the Bible, but it doesn't hurt.
Where does that outdated culture end and the relevant stuff begin?
As I have said, I haven't personally studied all Scripture so as to have specific knowledge about which parts exactly are metaphorical and which are literal. If you have a particular passage in mind, I can study it so that we can discuss it in more detail.
Also, I was talking to my wife and she pointed out that I should explain that even though someone can be led by God and have a close relationship with Him without having read the Bible, it's important to know that God's personality, as you would come to know Him in your personal life, isn't contradictory to what the Bible teaches. The Bible in fact says:
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17
So then if someone is doing something that, for example, is malevolent or evil and says that God told them to do it then they ought to reevaluate their motives because God's character is contrary to that.
Regarding the faith versus religion debate, I recall reading in Mark last week:
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.7They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
- Mark 7:5-13
In that day, there were many many laws and rules that were created by the religious leaders which greatly and needlessly expanded upon the laws given to Moses by God. One of the ten commandments says "Honor your father and mother," but the laws held that if you had money that you would use to spend in taking care of your parents when they became old, but instead gave all of that money to the church, then you would no longer need to take care of your parents.
Christ is rebuking the religious leaders for creating so many laws and rules that meant having a relationship with God could almost be considered pointless, since someone could follow the rules without any consideration for or relationship with Him.
Living a life that is pleasing to God isn't about following rules, it's about having a relationship with Him, and learning to trust and obey that He knows what is best for you in your life.
I'd like to see what your reactions would be to someone like Jesus showing up, proclaiming that they are the son of god and the savior of mankind, and then doing some simple magic tricks.
I'd like to see what your reactions would be to someone like Jesus showing up, proclaiming that they are the son of god and the savior of mankind, and then doing some simple magic tricks.
If He were the real deal, I ought to recognize Him.
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
- Matthew 16:13-17
In fact, a Jewish man named Saul once spent a lot of his time persecuting and killing early Christians, I suspect because he thought they were all involved in some weird cult. Then, Christ appeared to him in a vision and set him straight, after which he was called Paul and is the most common writer of texts that were used in compiling the New Testament.
...otherwise:
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
So how do you determine that Jesus was totally not a false prophet? Because some book told you that he was awesome?
Pretty much. It's called having faith. Sometimes you just have to believe in something without any evidence, otherwise no one would believe in anything and we'd all go around killing each other.
I don't think we'd go around killing each other if we didn't believe in anything but I agree with Highway...no one can know for sure and that's why it's called belief. If we all knew the answer to life, the universe, and everything, or perhaps, more specifically, the question, then we wouldn't need to believe in anything because we would know.
There's just no point in believing in facts...as I said earlier, that would be like believing in gravity or taxes.
I dont think we'd kill each other, I'm just saying we wouldnt have consciences as developed as they are with faith. im not saying people without faith dont have consciences though.
So how do you determine that Jesus was totally not a false prophet? Because some book told you that he was awesome?
I reiterate:
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
- Matthew 16:13-17
And also:
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
- John 20:24-31
I believe because the Holy Spirit of God has revealed it to me, and has opened my eyes to continually see further evidence in my life and the lives of others around me.
I dont think we'd kill each other, I'm just saying we wouldnt have consciences as developed as they are with faith. im not saying people without faith dont have consciences though.
I believe in no organized religion, have only been inside a church twice in my life, both were funerals, and I am pretty certain my conscience and moral code is far more developed and far stricter than the vast majority of people I've met in my life who identify as "Christian". Being Christian doesn't automatically entitle you to special powers of improved conscience, and in several cases, I've seen people justify their insane lack of a conscience by saying "oh it's okay I can just apologize and Jesus will forgive me". Saying someone who is religious has a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
I believe because the Holy Spirit of God has revealed it to me, and has opened my eyes to continually see further evidence in my life and the lives of others around me.
So because some old book has words in it, and you look for evidence where there is none, that is enough proof to devote your life to something?
I believe in no organized religion, have only been inside a church twice in my life, both were funerals, and I am pretty certain my conscience and moral code is far more developed and far stricter than the vast majority of people I've met in my life who identify as "Christian". Being Christian doesn't automatically entitle you to special powers of improved conscience, and in several cases, I've seen people justify their insane lack of a conscience by saying "oh it's okay I can just apologize and Jesus will forgive me". Saying someone who is religious has a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
I agree. That's why I said I wasn't saying people without faith had less developed consciences. I mean that if you follow a belief, your conscience is differently made up compared to other faiths and non faiths, and therefore people with that conscience PERCIEVE others to have less developed consciences, as they do not believe the same stuff, so, yes, it is a wrong assumption, not the thing I was trying to convey though.
So because some old book has words in it, and you look for evidence where there is none, that is enough proof to devote your life to something?
You would turn away from such evidence, even if it were staring you in the face. There's nothing I can say, beyond what I've already said, to convince you of the reasons why I believe in God and in Jesus Christ.
God, Himself has revealed it to me, not just from "some old book."
I challenge you to ask Him yourself, to reveal Himself to you. If you are truly seeking, you'll find Him also.
20"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
You would turn away from such evidence, even if it were staring you in the face. There's nothing I can say, beyond what I've already said, to convince you of the reasons why I believe in God and in Jesus Christ.
God, Himself has revealed it to me, not just from "some old book."
I challenge you to ask Him yourself, to reveal Himself to you. If you are truly seeking, you'll find Him also.
I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous and corny thing I have ever heard in my entire life, and I honestly can't believe you'd think it was true.
To me, the fact that Scientology is a practicing religion is just further proof that people will believe anything just to think they have some answers or meaning to their lives.
I believe in no organized religion, have only been inside a church twice in my life, both were funerals, and I am pretty certain my conscience and moral code is far more developed and far stricter than the vast majority of people I've met in my life who identify as "Christian". Being Christian doesn't automatically entitle you to special powers of improved conscience, and in several cases, I've seen people justify their insane lack of a conscience by saying "oh it's okay I can just apologize and Jesus will forgive me". Saying someone who is religious has a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
Saying someone who is religious CAN'T have a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
You can discover on your own whether God really exists. Arguing with me and calling Jesus a cult leader isn't going to hinder my relationship with Him.
If you say that what I believe is absurd, then you're free to do so.
You can discover on your own whether God really exists. Arguing with me and calling Jesus a cult leader isn't going to hinder my relationship with Him.
If you say that what I believe is absurd, then you're free to do so.
What I'm wondering is, since the texts were meant for people thousands of years ago, that they're outdated now because we live in different conditions, and that the passages are so prone to misinterpretation (I don't know two people who agree exactly on which parts should be taken literally and which parts shouldn't), wouldn't it make more sense for the Bible to be a constantly moving amount of text, with added parts that relate to today, removing the parts that don't anymore, etc, in short the way it used to be constantly modified in the past.
Now it's been the same and is seen as "untouchable" and "unchangeable" when even Christians seem to agree that some parts need to be interpreted completely differently, and so on.
I challenge you to ask Him yourself, to reveal Himself to you. If you are truly seeking, you'll find Him also.
If you ask god something, that would mean you already believe he exists, because if you don't believe he's there, you're not going to ask him anything.
Also, in my previous post 'wrong' was the, well, wrong word to use. Sorry.
Comments
Then stop for a minute, respect other people's beliefs and stop being an ass. Srsly and for reals.
</profound speech>
I can't help but notice the irony.
Doesn't that make you all feel better?
I find being called lame and an ass when I did nothing to deserve it rude and inconsiderate. It makes me very sad.
Here's a sad face: T_T
I didn't say that it's "wrong," I said that some of it wasn't meant to be taken literally; and that, in parts, it doesn't make sense unless you consider that the original writers of the manuscripts wrote from the perspective of someone living thousands of years ago in a different culture than we live in, and that that must also be taken into account.
But yes, you might say that it's enough for God alone to speak to us. In fact, once upon a time, there was no compilation of translated writing that the average person could read. At one time, the only copies of Biblical texts were in their original language. From what I understand, the reason why the King James Version is so renowned is because it was the first publicly available English-translated version of the Bible. Back when the Christian church first started, people just met in each others houses to fellowship and stuff. Many of the books of the New Testament are letters from prominent people in the early Christian church (mainly Paul) who wrote to different churches praising them or giving advice about issues that they were having.
But anyway, the answer is "yes." God can lead someone without required that they read the Bible, but it doesn't hurt.
I don't want to behave. I...I want to...be...I want to be...
Where does that outdated culture end and the relevant stuff begin?
It was intentional. Maybe. Whatever's cooler.
Ok, yes, the way people are talking here is pretty lame. It's so lame it makes walking on crutches seem like jogging. So, you know.
I'll add a heart here so it doesn't seem like I'm being aggressive:
As I have said, I haven't personally studied all Scripture so as to have specific knowledge about which parts exactly are metaphorical and which are literal. If you have a particular passage in mind, I can study it so that we can discuss it in more detail.
Also, I was talking to my wife and she pointed out that I should explain that even though someone can be led by God and have a close relationship with Him without having read the Bible, it's important to know that God's personality, as you would come to know Him in your personal life, isn't contradictory to what the Bible teaches. The Bible in fact says:
So then if someone is doing something that, for example, is malevolent or evil and says that God told them to do it then they ought to reevaluate their motives because God's character is contrary to that.
Regarding the faith versus religion debate, I recall reading in Mark last week:
In that day, there were many many laws and rules that were created by the religious leaders which greatly and needlessly expanded upon the laws given to Moses by God. One of the ten commandments says "Honor your father and mother," but the laws held that if you had money that you would use to spend in taking care of your parents when they became old, but instead gave all of that money to the church, then you would no longer need to take care of your parents.
Christ is rebuking the religious leaders for creating so many laws and rules that meant having a relationship with God could almost be considered pointless, since someone could follow the rules without any consideration for or relationship with Him.
Living a life that is pleasing to God isn't about following rules, it's about having a relationship with Him, and learning to trust and obey that He knows what is best for you in your life.
If He were the real deal, I ought to recognize Him.
In fact, a Jewish man named Saul once spent a lot of his time persecuting and killing early Christians, I suspect because he thought they were all involved in some weird cult. Then, Christ appeared to him in a vision and set him straight, after which he was called Paul and is the most common writer of texts that were used in compiling the New Testament.
...otherwise:
Pretty much. It's called having faith. Sometimes you just have to believe in something without any evidence, otherwise no one would believe in anything and we'd all go around killing each other.
There's just no point in believing in facts...as I said earlier, that would be like believing in gravity or taxes.
I reiterate:
And also:
I believe because the Holy Spirit of God has revealed it to me, and has opened my eyes to continually see further evidence in my life and the lives of others around me.
I believe in no organized religion, have only been inside a church twice in my life, both were funerals, and I am pretty certain my conscience and moral code is far more developed and far stricter than the vast majority of people I've met in my life who identify as "Christian". Being Christian doesn't automatically entitle you to special powers of improved conscience, and in several cases, I've seen people justify their insane lack of a conscience by saying "oh it's okay I can just apologize and Jesus will forgive me". Saying someone who is religious has a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
So because some old book has words in it, and you look for evidence where there is none, that is enough proof to devote your life to something?
I agree. That's why I said I wasn't saying people without faith had less developed consciences. I mean that if you follow a belief, your conscience is differently made up compared to other faiths and non faiths, and therefore people with that conscience PERCIEVE others to have less developed consciences, as they do not believe the same stuff, so, yes, it is a wrong assumption, not the thing I was trying to convey though.
You would turn away from such evidence, even if it were staring you in the face. There's nothing I can say, beyond what I've already said, to convince you of the reasons why I believe in God and in Jesus Christ.
God, Himself has revealed it to me, not just from "some old book."
I challenge you to ask Him yourself, to reveal Himself to you. If you are truly seeking, you'll find Him also.
I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous and corny thing I have ever heard in my entire life, and I honestly can't believe you'd think it was true.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, it's not up to anyone to tell people what is believable or not, and what is ridiculous or not.
I'm not offended. Really, I'm not.
It's not a matter of whether we found it offensive, it is the fact that he can't accept the fact that we believe for the sake of believing
He's not going to accept it.
The Bible says don't be disheartened when you're persecuted.
http://www.losingmyreligion.com/essays/brad/cultleader.htm
Got it. Don't care.
Saying someone who is religious CAN'T have a more developed conscience than someone who isn't is an incredibly wrong assumption.
I'm not going to fight about this.
You can discover on your own whether God really exists. Arguing with me and calling Jesus a cult leader isn't going to hinder my relationship with Him.
If you say that what I believe is absurd, then you're free to do so.
Good. I endorse this statement.
I didn't say that, at all.
I did.
Now it's been the same and is seen as "untouchable" and "unchangeable" when even Christians seem to agree that some parts need to be interpreted completely differently, and so on.
Also, in my previous post 'wrong' was the, well, wrong word to use. Sorry.
Can I ask, why not? Just saying "Don't care" isn't a really constructive way to dismiss an argument.