Its looking less and less likely that the Conservatives and Liberals will be able to form any sort of agreement. If Labour are again put into government with the backing of the Liberals, it will be an utter travesty: democracy dictates that the party with the most support from the electorate should be the government, regardless of not holding a majority, not the runners up teaming together. Especially since Labour would again be putting a PM up that hasn't been tested against the national electorate, in the same way Brown hadn't for the past few years.
Well if it does happen Labour and Lib Dems will have shot themselves in the foot. The little progress Lib Dems will have made will be out the window and Labour will take the Tories position as the bastard party of British politics. Plus the whole thing will fall apart in about twelve seconds anyway.
If Clegg actually goes with Labour it shows his own selfishness and proves to all my overly liberal douchey friends that Lib Dems are just like every other party and are ready to sell out their ideals just like that.
Besides, nobody's actually offering them Proportional Representation voting anyway, all they've been offered is AV, which any politics student can tell you can actually enhance the very effects of First past the Post that Lib Dems have been moaning about for ages.
..and these fools get to decide who runs the country
Well it looks like there will be a coalition between the Conservatives & the Liberal Democrats. To be honest, I'm just happy that Brown is just about gone. I would imagine it will be official in the next day or two.
I think there's expected to be an announcement outside the cabinet office in around 20 minutes. As corruptbiggins says, it's now looking likely to be confirmed that the Con/Lib deal is going to go ahead. Disappointing. Unless there's an agreement on the length of term, I can imagine us hitting general elections within a year.
Unless there's an agreement on the length of term, I can imagine us hitting general elections within a year.
Nick Robinson heard rumblings that the very first page of the Lib Dems big dossier of terms states that the pact has to last a full term, so that the rug can't be pulled from under their feet. No word on specifics as yet obv
Brown is at Buckingham Palace resigning as I write. Cameron's got the top job, looks like (but still isn't 100% certain) Clegg's going into coalition rather than just making a deal with a minority government, taking Deputy Prime Minister - that's been vacant since Tony Blair left, and its importance lies entirely on the capability of the incumbent. Got to say I'm somewhat surprised, I wasn't expecting the Liberals and Tories to come to an agreement.
Still want Vince Cable into the Chancery though, but that's going to be unlikely.
In other news, top runners for the new Labour leader are David Miliband (Foreign Secretary), Harriet Harman (Leader of the House of Commons, God help us if she gets it), Ed Balls (Education Secretary) and younger brother Ed Miliband (Energy Secretary). Alan Johnson (Home Secretary), who would have had a strong chance of winning a leadership election, is backing David Miliband. Shame really, I rather liked Johnson.
In other news, top runners for the new Labour leader are David Milliband, Harriet Harman (God help us if she gets it), Ed Balls and younger brother Ed Milliband.
Harman told Newsnight that she had no intention of putting herself toward. Here's a video clip of that. If anyone is interested, here is also the video of Gordon Brown's resignation.
Yeah, I'll believe that Harman's not standing when the leadership election is done with. I don't trust that woman one bit. She takes "slimey" to a level unseen anywhere else in the Commons or the Labour Party.
David Milliband seems to get on well with the Americans, especially Hilary Clinton. He was seems less... smarmy than the others, so I'd hope he gets it.
In all honesty it matters little to me who runs the show as long as they do a good job, still the words "Tories in charge" is sure to send a shiver down many a spine.
Interestingly, Brown isn't standing down as a MP. Somewhat unconventional for modern PMs who have been ousted, but he's completely entitled to. He's actually got the mandate from his consistuency to do that, and it prevents a by-election taking place within the next few months.
EDIT 1: Ok, Cameron is now officially in, and has confirmed he wants a coalition with the Liberals. Clegg still has to sell this to the Parliamentary Liberal party, so we still don't know what the new cabinet will look like.
EDIT 2: Interesting side point: today is the anniversary of the Battle of Fontenoy, in which the French beat England, the Netherlands and Hanover decisively in the War of Austrian Succession in 1745; the defeat gave rise to the Jacobite uprising of Charles Edward Stuart, the greatest leadership crisis in this country since the Civil War.
Well thank god that's all sorted, I was starting to get really sick of that blonde tart on BBC talking over David Dimbleby.
I think there's actually a half decent chance of Vince Cable getting in the treasury as some sort of deputy. I've got a feeling Clegg could find himself in the Home Office
Ok, our only confirmed cabinet members are George Osbourne as Chancellor of the Exchequer and former Tory leader William Hague as Foreign Secretary. Nothing surprising - that corresponds with their positions in the shadow cabinet - but I doubt we'll get any further appointments until tomorrow, though we might get Cleggy's position too later. Those two positions are necessary to get set ASAP for economic and diplomatic reasons.
Are there any people outside the UK with a view? I think it's always interesting to hear what onlookers have to say.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the concept of a coalition between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives.
Here in the US of A, hell would freeze over before something like that would happen. Incumbent Republicans are losing primaries because they're viewed as too amenable to compromise!
Kinda Scotland's fault though since the memories of vicious Tory cuts and tests on us and us alone pretty much steeled Scotland as a Pro Labour stronghold..
One of my co-workers is convinced that the Tories will now oppress Scotland, enslave our men, rape our women and eat our babies. Because that's what they do apparently. I didn't vote for them, and I'm not entirely happy with the thought of them running the country, but at the same time I don't think they're the Antichrist. Hopefully the coalition with the Lib Dems might balance them a bit, if they can actually form one that works given how different they are. We really do need voting reforms (which we won't get) because it's ridiculous that the Lib Dems can get so many votes and so few seats. (guess who I voted for) And if it doesn't work out, at least we'll only have four years of ineffectual governing before Labour inevitably returns to power in the next election. Assuming the Tories haven't put Scotland to the flame and the sword before then.
Side-note: One of my friends was all in favour of another election being called, because apparently if a second election was called and also ends in a hung Parliament, power reverts back to the Queen. Not sure how true that is, but it would be hilarious. About time those bloody Royals did some work around here. (though they'd have to sedate or gag Prince Phillip first)
Clegg is going to be Deputy Prime Minister, must have fought hard for that one.
I dunno, Deputy PM weilds bugger all power really (remember they had John Prescott as Deputy PM not so long ago, shows you the caliber they stick in that position ) I thought he would've tried for the Home Office myself. My politics prediction powers have been failing me of late
One of my co-workers is convinced that the Tories will now oppress Scotland, enslave our men, rape our women and eat our babies. Because that's what they do apparently. I didn't vote for them, and I'm not entirely happy with the thought of them running the country, but at the same time I don't think they're the Antichrist. Hopefully the coalition with the Lib Dems might balance them a bit, if they can actually form one that works given how different they are. We really do need voting reforms (which we won't get) because it's ridiculous that the Lib Dems can get so many votes and so few seats. (guess who I voted for) And if it doesn't work out, at least we'll only have four years of ineffectual governing before Labour inevitably returns to power in the next election. Assuming the Tories haven't put Scotland to the flame and the sword before then.
Side-note: One of my friends was all in favour of another election being called, because apparently if a second election was called and also ends in a hung Parliament, power reverts back to the Queen. Not sure how true that is, but it would be hilarious. About time those bloody Royals did some work around here. (though they'd have to sedate or gag Prince Phillip first)
Alot of people seem to think the tories are evil down here too (the young voters anyway). I'm unsure about them myself.My mum is very pro-conservative, yet all my friends are anti. It's left me in a kind of neutral position really.
As for the queen: she had all the power of the government at around 7ish, after Brown resigned, but before cameron took over. She could have invaded France!
Electoral Reform needs to happen though. We are still using the same system we were using in 1960, where labour, despite getting the most votes ended up coming second to the tories (and churchill). Something should have been done about it then, but wasn't.
As for the queen: she had all the power of the government at around 7ish, after Brown resigned, but before cameron took over. She could have invaded France!
Seriously, I think that the monarchy needs to have a greater role in the political process. It might not be democratic, but the queen needs to act as a stronger check and balance in the system. Technically the power is still there in the uncodified constitution, but certainly the current queen is just absolutely backboneless, unlike her uncle and great uncle. All the monarchy does is read what the government writes for her to read at the Queen's speech, rubber-stamp legislation, then go open a hospital or four. She should actually have to work as her own force in the political process to earn the amount of cash she gets off the taxpayer.
Electoral Reform needs to happen though. We are still using the same system we were using in 1960, where labour, despite getting the most votes ended up coming second to the tories (and churchill). Something should have been done about it then, but wasn't.
Its the same system we've been using since 1660, not just 1960. Its fair to say that its a little outdated for modern politics now. Looks like we're in for AV now, though (love or loathe) its not proportional representation.
One of my co-workers is convinced that the Tories will now oppress Scotland, enslave our men, rape our women and eat our babies. Because that's what they do apparently.
Just remind your friend of the happier days of King David I of Scotland, where the Scots annexed Cumbria and bits of Northumbria, enslaved our men, probably raped our women, but are somewhat unlikely to have eaten our babies. You got to do it to us, we got to do it to you... Ah, the twelfth century, how we miss you (well, less the bit that had King Stephen).
I dunno, Deputy PM weilds bugger all power really (remember they had John Prescott as Deputy PM not so long ago, shows you the caliber they stick in that position ) I thought he would've tried for the Home Office myself. My politics prediction powers have been failing me of late
Generally I would agree with you, but in a coalition government that we now have, I feel that the office of deputy prime minister is a hugely important one and as evidenced by the press conference just given by Cameron & Clegg I think that it's important to them as well.
After seeing them talk, I'm actually quite optimistic about this government lasting at least the 5 years they want and actually getting something done in that time, and done right.
Alot of people seem to think the tories are evil down here too (the young voters anyway). I'm unsure about them myself.My mum is very pro-conservative, yet all my friends are anti. It's left me in a kind of neutral position really.
That's one of the things that really irritates me about the whole Scottish martyrdom bullshit that goes on when the Tories are mentioned. It completely fails to take into account that the Thatcherite government gutted British industries in general, just look at what happened to the coal industry. Talking about it like it was some vast conspiracy against Scotland is utterly ridiculous.
Just remind your friend of the happier days of King David I of Scotland, where the Scots annexed Cumbria and bits of Northumbria, enslaved our men, probably raped our women, but are somewhat unlikely to have eaten our babies. You got to do it to us, we got to do it to you... Ah, the twelfth century, how we miss you (well, less the bit that had King Stephen).
And that's not even taking into account the various wars/massacres/pillaging that the Scottish clans were perfectly happy to inflict on each other without any English involvement. Don't even get me started on Bonnie Prince Charlie.
To get back on topic, I would like to see how this coalition pans out before making any judgements on it. At least the Lib Dems are involved, which is something.
I disagree with the monarchy having anything to do with the political system, especially giving them more powers than they already have, they're unelected, giving them more responsibility in my eyes would be a horrid mistake.
I'm not opposed to the monarchy as a nice little ceremonial touch, but I don't see why they should be a drain on taxpayers money at all, they've got enough land and properties as it is, future royality can all get jobs like the rest of us as far as i'm concerned and pay there own way.
As for the Tory hate, i'm a Northern Irish catholic, we got a pretty raw deal under Thatcher (I won't get into the specifics as we'll be ehre all day) but my point is parties change as the membership change. The American Democrats were all for slavery not so long ago, now they're the party that gave the states its first black president
And that's not even taking into account the various wars/massacres/pillaging that the Scottish clans were perfectly happy to inflict on each other without any English involvement. Don't even get me started on Bonnie Prince Charlie.
You, as a Scotsman, don't like Charles Edward Stuart? Intriguing. I was up north a few months back, and took the time to go to Inverness and Culloden battlefield (if anyone ever has a chance to go to Culloden, do it. Its a brilliantly put together battlefield museum). I was somewhat surprised at the presence of statues and plaques commemorating the Young Pretender around Inverness. It struck me that he'd been adopted as something of a national symbol for the Highlanders, sometimes even inaccurately as an anti-English figurehead.
Anyway, for anyone interested, here's the new coalition cabinet.
Major jobs:
David Cameron: Prime Minister, replacing Gordon Brown
Nick Clegg (Liberal): Deputy Prime Minister, position recreated, vacant since John Prescott
George Osbourne: Chancellor of the Exchequer, replacing Alastair Darling
William Hague: Foreign Secretary, replacing David Miliband
Theresa May: Home Secretary and Minister for Women, replacing Alan Johnson and Harriet Harman respectively
Liam Fox: Defence Secretary, replacing Bob Ainsworth
Ken Clarke: Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary, replacing Jack Straw
Andrew Langsley: Health Secretary, replacing Andy Burnham
Michael Grove: Education Secretary, replacing Ed Balls
Vince Cable (Liberal): Business Secretary, replacing Lord Mandelson
Dominic Grieves: Attorney General, replacing Baroness Scotland
Patrick Mcloughlin: Chief Whip, replacing Nick Brown
Eric Pickles: Local Government Secretary, replacing John Denham
Philip Hammond: Transport Secretary, replacing Lord Adonis
Jeremy Hunt: Culture and Sport Secretary, replacing Ben Bradshaw and Tessa Jowell
Baroness Warsi: Conservative Chairman
I noted a few things when looking that up.
The Tories, somewhat unexpectedly, are far less reliant on peers to fill cabinet offices than Labour was.
While the Scottish Secretary is actually Scottish, both Irish and Welsh Secretaries are English.
Two former leaders of the Conservative party, Hague and Duncan Smith, are in Cabinet.
I might be wrong with this, but only two of them have had experience as a Secretary of State, that being Ken Clarke, who held several offices in the Thatcher and Major years, and Hague, who was Welsh Secretary under Major.
As for the Tory hate, i'm a Northern Irish catholic, we got a pretty raw deal under Thatcher (I won't get into the specifics as we'll be ehre all day) but my point is parties change as the membership change. The American Democrats were all for slavery not so long ago, now they're the party that gave the states its first black president
That's pretty much how I feel, the Tory party as it is now =/= the Tory party as it was under Thatcher. I might not have voted for them, but I'll give them a chance, it's not like I agreed with everything Labour did while they were in power.
You, as a Scotsman, don't like Charles Edward Stuart? Intriguing.
...and that pretty much sums up why I hate the guy. He's not a Scottish hero. He was barely Scottish and he wasn't a hero. Heroes don't run away dressed in women's clothing while their loyal followers get slaughtered. He was a spoilt brat who was happy to let the men who believed in him die so that he could wear a crown, and a lot of his undoing was the fact that his utter arrogance lost him a lot of European support and led his army to ruin. Didn't listen to military advisers who told him not to fight at Culloden, decided that the defeat was obviously caused by betrayal and not charging his army into musket fire and cannons, abandoned his followers even though they were still willing to fight for him. Ended up as a drunk.
That's not even taking into account the fact that his cause was not supported by Scotland as a whole. The Jacobites supported him because they wanted the Stuarts back on the throne of Britain, and the Jacobite movement had a large following in the Highlands, but there were plenty of Scots who supported the House of Hanover and fought against the Jacobites. Some of the regiments that fought under Cumberland at Culloden were Scottish.
And let's not forget that the Stuarts were staunch believers in absolute monarchy, i.e. 'do not question me, I am the King, I will do what I like, the will of the people does not apply to me, if you oppose me you are a heretic.' You know, the kind of thing that got Charles I executed.
Comments
If Clegg actually goes with Labour it shows his own selfishness and proves to all my overly liberal douchey friends that Lib Dems are just like every other party and are ready to sell out their ideals just like that.
Besides, nobody's actually offering them Proportional Representation voting anyway, all they've been offered is AV, which any politics student can tell you can actually enhance the very effects of First past the Post that Lib Dems have been moaning about for ages.
..and these fools get to decide who runs the country
Nick Robinson heard rumblings that the very first page of the Lib Dems big dossier of terms states that the pact has to last a full term, so that the rug can't be pulled from under their feet. No word on specifics as yet obv
Still want Vince Cable into the Chancery though, but that's going to be unlikely.
In other news, top runners for the new Labour leader are David Miliband (Foreign Secretary), Harriet Harman (Leader of the House of Commons, God help us if she gets it), Ed Balls (Education Secretary) and younger brother Ed Miliband (Energy Secretary). Alan Johnson (Home Secretary), who would have had a strong chance of winning a leadership election, is backing David Miliband. Shame really, I rather liked Johnson.
Harman told Newsnight that she had no intention of putting herself toward. Here's a video clip of that. If anyone is interested, here is also the video of Gordon Brown's resignation.
In all honesty it matters little to me who runs the show as long as they do a good job, still the words "Tories in charge" is sure to send a shiver down many a spine.
EDIT 1: Ok, Cameron is now officially in, and has confirmed he wants a coalition with the Liberals. Clegg still has to sell this to the Parliamentary Liberal party, so we still don't know what the new cabinet will look like.
EDIT 2: Interesting side point: today is the anniversary of the Battle of Fontenoy, in which the French beat England, the Netherlands and Hanover decisively in the War of Austrian Succession in 1745; the defeat gave rise to the Jacobite uprising of Charles Edward Stuart, the greatest leadership crisis in this country since the Civil War.
I think there's actually a half decent chance of Vince Cable getting in the treasury as some sort of deputy. I've got a feeling Clegg could find himself in the Home Office
I wanna take this opportunity just to say that I really like William Hague. He just seems like a sound fella... I know what you're all thinking
I heard otherwise on BBC news. He's leaving politics completly. That's why he said goodbye to his party. (I assume anyway).
That's what was believed, but a statement was issued saying he's becoming a backbench MP in Parliament.
Are there any people outside the UK with a view? I think it's always interesting to hear what onlookers have to say.
I spend half the week in ROI if that counts
Here in the US of A, hell would freeze over before something like that would happen. Incumbent Republicans are losing primaries because they're viewed as too amenable to compromise!
One of my co-workers is convinced that the Tories will now oppress Scotland, enslave our men, rape our women and eat our babies. Because that's what they do apparently. I didn't vote for them, and I'm not entirely happy with the thought of them running the country, but at the same time I don't think they're the Antichrist. Hopefully the coalition with the Lib Dems might balance them a bit, if they can actually form one that works given how different they are. We really do need voting reforms (which we won't get) because it's ridiculous that the Lib Dems can get so many votes and so few seats. (guess who I voted for) And if it doesn't work out, at least we'll only have four years of ineffectual governing before Labour inevitably returns to power in the next election. Assuming the Tories haven't put Scotland to the flame and the sword before then.
Side-note: One of my friends was all in favour of another election being called, because apparently if a second election was called and also ends in a hung Parliament, power reverts back to the Queen. Not sure how true that is, but it would be hilarious. About time those bloody Royals did some work around here. (though they'd have to sedate or gag Prince Phillip first)
I dunno, Deputy PM weilds bugger all power really (remember they had John Prescott as Deputy PM not so long ago, shows you the caliber they stick in that position
Alot of people seem to think the tories are evil down here too (the young voters anyway). I'm unsure about them myself.My mum is very pro-conservative, yet all my friends are anti. It's left me in a kind of neutral position really.
As for the queen: she had all the power of the government at around 7ish, after Brown resigned, but before cameron took over. She could have invaded France!
Electoral Reform needs to happen though. We are still using the same system we were using in 1960, where labour, despite getting the most votes ended up coming second to the tories (and churchill). Something should have been done about it then, but wasn't.
Seriously, I think that the monarchy needs to have a greater role in the political process. It might not be democratic, but the queen needs to act as a stronger check and balance in the system. Technically the power is still there in the uncodified constitution, but certainly the current queen is just absolutely backboneless, unlike her uncle and great uncle. All the monarchy does is read what the government writes for her to read at the Queen's speech, rubber-stamp legislation, then go open a hospital or four. She should actually have to work as her own force in the political process to earn the amount of cash she gets off the taxpayer.
Its the same system we've been using since 1660, not just 1960. Its fair to say that its a little outdated for modern politics now. Looks like we're in for AV now, though (love or loathe) its not proportional representation.
Just remind your friend of the happier days of King David I of Scotland, where the Scots annexed Cumbria and bits of Northumbria, enslaved our men, probably raped our women, but are somewhat unlikely to have eaten our babies. You got to do it to us, we got to do it to you... Ah, the twelfth century, how we miss you (well, less the bit that had King Stephen).
Generally I would agree with you, but in a coalition government that we now have, I feel that the office of deputy prime minister is a hugely important one and as evidenced by the press conference just given by Cameron & Clegg I think that it's important to them as well.
After seeing them talk, I'm actually quite optimistic about this government lasting at least the 5 years they want and actually getting something done in that time, and done right.
That's one of the things that really irritates me about the whole Scottish martyrdom bullshit that goes on when the Tories are mentioned. It completely fails to take into account that the Thatcherite government gutted British industries in general, just look at what happened to the coal industry. Talking about it like it was some vast conspiracy against Scotland is utterly ridiculous.
IAWTC. Seriously, right now we have a decorative monarchy that's basically a sink for public money that could, say, be used to improve the NHS.
And that's not even taking into account the various wars/massacres/pillaging that the Scottish clans were perfectly happy to inflict on each other without any English involvement. Don't even get me started on Bonnie Prince Charlie.
To get back on topic, I would like to see how this coalition pans out before making any judgements on it. At least the Lib Dems are involved, which is something.
Or put towards filling the budget deficit.
Anyay, sort of related to this topic, do a google image search for david cameron side profile. And click the first image. (It's nothing too obscene!)
Given what's happened/happening in Greece, that sounds like a good plan to me.
*LMAO* WTF? That's... interesting...
I'm not opposed to the monarchy as a nice little ceremonial touch, but I don't see why they should be a drain on taxpayers money at all, they've got enough land and properties as it is, future royality can all get jobs like the rest of us as far as i'm concerned and pay there own way.
As for the Tory hate, i'm a Northern Irish catholic, we got a pretty raw deal under Thatcher (I won't get into the specifics as we'll be ehre all day) but my point is parties change as the membership change. The American Democrats were all for slavery not so long ago, now they're the party that gave the states its first black president
You, as a Scotsman, don't like Charles Edward Stuart? Intriguing. I was up north a few months back, and took the time to go to Inverness and Culloden battlefield (if anyone ever has a chance to go to Culloden, do it. Its a brilliantly put together battlefield museum). I was somewhat surprised at the presence of statues and plaques commemorating the Young Pretender around Inverness. It struck me that he'd been adopted as something of a national symbol for the Highlanders, sometimes even inaccurately as an anti-English figurehead.
Anyway, for anyone interested, here's the new coalition cabinet.
Major jobs:
Arguably less-important-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things jobs:
I noted a few things when looking that up.
That's pretty much how I feel, the Tory party as it is now =/= the Tory party as it was under Thatcher. I might not have voted for them, but I'll give them a chance, it's not like I agreed with everything Labour did while they were in power.
...and that pretty much sums up why I hate the guy. He's not a Scottish hero. He was barely Scottish and he wasn't a hero. Heroes don't run away dressed in women's clothing while their loyal followers get slaughtered. He was a spoilt brat who was happy to let the men who believed in him die so that he could wear a crown, and a lot of his undoing was the fact that his utter arrogance lost him a lot of European support and led his army to ruin. Didn't listen to military advisers who told him not to fight at Culloden, decided that the defeat was obviously caused by betrayal and not charging his army into musket fire and cannons, abandoned his followers even though they were still willing to fight for him. Ended up as a drunk.
That's not even taking into account the fact that his cause was not supported by Scotland as a whole. The Jacobites supported him because they wanted the Stuarts back on the throne of Britain, and the Jacobite movement had a large following in the Highlands, but there were plenty of Scots who supported the House of Hanover and fought against the Jacobites. Some of the regiments that fought under Cumberland at Culloden were Scottish.
And let's not forget that the Stuarts were staunch believers in absolute monarchy, i.e. 'do not question me, I am the King, I will do what I like, the will of the people does not apply to me, if you oppose me you are a heretic.' You know, the kind of thing that got Charles I executed.