Of characters directing authors
Splitting this from another thread because I feel the theme has potential.
I totally understand what you mean, and I think every writer has experienced it. But it doesn't happen without the author being aware of it when they publish it. The writer is still writing it, but there is that time along the process when it goes from a person having an idea to an idea having a person.
What happens then is that the characters are fleshed out enough that you realise "he/she would never do that. That's not possible" and you have to change your original plan, because at this point the story itself is worth more to you than "having it your way". At this point you are just this extremely lucky person who gets to have this story happen through their words.
But there is always a time when you go "oh, wait" and change this, or realise you're going in a direction you never suspected. Therefore it's quite different from what we mentioned (about whether a reader can decide "the author meant this" when the author says otherwise). In your example, Tolstoy wouldn't go "wait, what, she dies? I never wrote that!"
The author know what they are writing, even if sometimes it seems you're only a watching bystander, and a character you love dies, you can't save them, and it hurts you, very much so, but that's what's happening so you don't stop writing. Because it has to happen that way. Because it does happen that way, and anything else would just feel wrong. In a way, it already happened, and you're just telling it to other people, and you don't want to lie about it.
I am curious if it happens in other creative situations. I can imagine a graphic novel, adventure game or movie would work very much like a novel, but what about a piece of art? Does a character suddenly has to look different than what you planned? What about music, does it have to change? Do they seem to take life and make their own decisions that you never though of until then?
Pantagruel's Friend wrote:It's one thing how the writer shapes characters - usually he has a clear idea where they're going, but sometimes something unintentional slips in, and, especially in a long story, the characters may stray from what the author has intended for them originally. The best example here is probably Tolstoy and Anna Karenina - when he was asked why he killed her, he replied: "I didn't kill her. She died."
I totally understand what you mean, and I think every writer has experienced it. But it doesn't happen without the author being aware of it when they publish it. The writer is still writing it, but there is that time along the process when it goes from a person having an idea to an idea having a person.
What happens then is that the characters are fleshed out enough that you realise "he/she would never do that. That's not possible" and you have to change your original plan, because at this point the story itself is worth more to you than "having it your way". At this point you are just this extremely lucky person who gets to have this story happen through their words.
But there is always a time when you go "oh, wait" and change this, or realise you're going in a direction you never suspected. Therefore it's quite different from what we mentioned (about whether a reader can decide "the author meant this" when the author says otherwise). In your example, Tolstoy wouldn't go "wait, what, she dies? I never wrote that!"
The author know what they are writing, even if sometimes it seems you're only a watching bystander, and a character you love dies, you can't save them, and it hurts you, very much so, but that's what's happening so you don't stop writing. Because it has to happen that way. Because it does happen that way, and anything else would just feel wrong. In a way, it already happened, and you're just telling it to other people, and you don't want to lie about it.
I am curious if it happens in other creative situations. I can imagine a graphic novel, adventure game or movie would work very much like a novel, but what about a piece of art? Does a character suddenly has to look different than what you planned? What about music, does it have to change? Do they seem to take life and make their own decisions that you never though of until then?
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
Half of the time happens to me when I lack the ability for design said character. I have a character who is supposed in his early 40s, but I'm pretty sure he looks 30 or younger at best, because when I designed him I couldn't fix that problem. For the same problem, I had a character who supposenly has a long face, but I couldn't get the right face until recently. The same character is supposed to be the shortest one of the group, but when I put him together with another character who's a girl, I simple couldn't grap the concept of she been taller than him so, now he's not the shortest one in the group.
From my totally noob perspective, when you put the "character" in the paper, you know if the design is the correct one or not. When if the idea you got at beginning doesn't work, experimenting is the key.
But, most of the time, my problem goes with the positions and the "story" I want to tell. Sometimes the idea goes directly to the paper easy other time the idea has several versions until you nail with the right one and the best one is when you have just a foggy idea of what you want and then go and draw.
Normally, I just have a little idea of what the character could be doing in the draw, and, sometimes, that idea could get scrapped in a moment and another stuff had to be done. (In that specific link, you should notice the guy who is in the background. Originally I didn't even have an idea of what he should do, when I suddenly remember if, the blonde guy is somewhat having fun, he normally will do the opposite. Ergo, NOW he is Sea Sick and I didn't know that until that moment ^^!).
But, most of the time, I know what the character will do or could do, put him/her in certain situation and then they go wild. Help a lot when you are a Pen and Paper RPG Master, you have no control over the characters and, if you want some story and playing done, you have to be really flexible.
Sometimes I think, for write an story or drawing a piece of art or whatever you just must have an intention. After that, get an agreement with the character or something. But, most of the time, I build an story so the character can be himself and the two have "fun" with that. Well, I "created" a Legal Stupid knight who's not only legal, he's also stupid; a depressive girl with a "I don't care what people think of me" facade and a "detective" which is also a sadist, I must know something about it! I'm not really sure in fact...
Now if I'm writing a humorous piece, that doesn't happen. My humor is too bizarre to be even remotely believable. But if it's serious fiction, then there's a transition from "writing" to "relaying". I relay what these characters do as I sit back and watch.
I think every writer does this to some extent. When one writes, I think they are temporarily given the opportunity to empathize with God. (I use "god" as a catch-all term for any given deity) It's the ultimate power trip, in a way. At least until the characters come to life... then, it's just a matter of watching it all come together. You can still shape things and direct them, but deep down, you know that if your characters want to do something, they'll do it.
Mh, I think everyone has their own method for writing. Personally, I can't really have a plot and shoehorn the characters into it. I first have characters and a general idea, and then I put the characters in the starting situation and see what they do.
I guess my main focus is the characters. The way I see it, if you have characters, you have a story. The way they interact with each other and with the world... Then of course you add events and stuff but in the end it's all about the characters.
If your main focus is the story... Then it's probably harder and can become a problem, I'm sure. If your goal was, for instance, to write a story about two friends and one kills the other, and in the end you realise the character wouldn't... You're kinda screwed since it was the main "attraction" of your story.
But if you care more about the story than the characters, you can probably keep it in check another way.
Every time a character evolves and changes in a direction that doesn't serve your story, go back and change it. Keep them in line. Then you can tell your story.
Now, I'm not saying I never have a story in mind or anything, but I usually keep it relatively vague until I have fleshed out characters, and even then, they surprise me.
On thing I've noticed... It could be just me, but I feel I never end up with "villains" I end up with people opposing each other, neither being fundamentally right or wrong, one of them just happening to be the main character. When you know people's history, background and motivations, I guess it's just that much harder to make them completely despicable.
I say that, but it might be a writer thing, because my readers have no problem hating my villains haha. I guess when you pour so much of yourself into someone you just want to find them excuses.
I do things sort of similar. I start with a general idea for a plot and the characters. I then let the characters evolve as they start to make the actually plot. I hope as they do this they will work towards the place I need them to as far as the plot is concerned but some characters will go where I need them to and others won't. I can't bring myself to change a characters actions or stop them from developing their own personality. It just feels wrong to me.
As for how to get them to drive towards the plot I need them to I think it's that I need to place in a different character and see if they will work to the end I need them to. Meanwhile I can take the previous character and shelf them until I find a story where they would work better. I know this will take longer to write it all out but I want the characters to feel real. I want all their actions to be something that don't feel forced. I want you to see them advance and change but not in a way that doesn't look or feel correct. This way they can help me find the subtleties of the plot I wanted. They can give reason to all things and it gives the whole of the story more immersion. It's what drives me as a writer is to write something that feels real and gives good immersion even if I went with a fantasy setting.
With the problem you have with how the villain never seems like one to you. They only feel like an antagonist because they are opposite the protagonist that would be because you know why they act that way. Once you see them as a person and not as an entity for evil it's harder to view them as evil. It's why a lot of stories won't give too much back story on a villain or they make them kick the dog. That's my findings at least. There are exceptions but seeing someone and why they've taken the path they have can make it so that it's harder to condemn their actions.
I guess you could also add things that you do have control over. Like, events that place them in the situation you wanted them to be. But yeah, it might just read wrong in the end if you do that. I think that's usually when people start shouting "Deus Ex Machina" all over the place.
Also I'm glad that someone else thought of it too because I almost felt insane for suggesting it as a way to go about fixing the problems I was having. We'll see how that works. I right now have to write a friends screen play and that's going poorly. He wants something more simple than I want to write and so I'm trying to think of a way to make it more complex. I've already changed somethings but getting him to bend on things is difficult.
It seems to work.
Okay, so this is Avistew's fault for starting this thread, just so we're all clear on this, right? Okay, good.
My characters are all real to me. I start off "creating" a character by either sketching them (badly) or listing their character traits' positive and negative aspects, then switch to the sketching or the listing. At the same time I almost always plot my stories out very carefully before I ever start "writing" them. The characters direct how they react to a situation, but I decide what situation to put them into. The plot has to flow, the scenes have to make sense, the rhythm has to hit all the notes just right before I commit the work to storymode. I've tried doing it the other way, and I just don't like it. There have been a few times when I wrote a story down in one sitting, usually when I was listening to a piece of music, but they're odd, little creatures that are just for me. I wouldn't know where to sell them or whether I want to. So they get one draft, and are left in the same "pile" as all the other characters, scraps of dialog and interesting bits of information I keep by in the hopes that they'll one day be useful.
I take direction from my characters, but I never give them control. Writing a story is like pulling open a curtain; the action never stops behind the curtain, but you control what you see by opening and closing it. I want my readers to feel like they've started in the middle of something. This world has been going for awhile before they were introduced to it, and it'll still be going when they leave. It's a living, breathing place full of living, breathing people who you get to meet for a moment, like going on vacation to somewhere new. One of the things you find in literature that I dislike the most is when you're always aware of the author. Too many people right from either a first person perspective or spend more time describing things to you than letting your experience them. You feel like you're in a tour group being herded along to all the "important" sights, given interpretations of what you're seeing and never given a chance to experience things your own way. I don't need the author to hold my hand through the story; if you need to "explain" that someone is annoying or sweet or close-minded then I feel you've failed as a storyteller. If you can't leave me to get to know the characters on my own, then they aren't characters, they're puppets you've set up to play out the plot.
Aaaaand I've written enough. That's the really dangerous thing about asking writers to write about the writing process, isn't it? We'll do it
For instance one of my stories takes place in La Sorbonne, which is the university I went to in Paris. It has like 10 main characters, which is a pain because it could become confusing. Anyways, I just put them all there together. I knew their past and how they'd react to each other, and more or less what they were going to do, but I didn't have a "plot".
Then I started a file and wrote down what happened and when, following the calendar for things such as exams and time off school (it takes place in 2003).
Then I had to decide when each character would be introduced. They all do stuff from the start, but I couldn't introduce all of them at once, so for some of them, well they're just doing things without it being focused on (read: it doesn't appear in the book). It might be referred to in passing though, and it's taken into account for the rest of the story.
I also established the timetables of each main student and teacher to know when they were giving and getting classes. Even for subjects or groups who never appear anywhere.
Might sound like overkill, but it allows me, later on, to have a character say "oh, I'm off on Thursdays" or something and not have it contradict anything at all.
So, I very much plan ahead. Major events too. I have a friend who starts writing with nothing in mind and she just writes herself into a corner. She likes to write mysteries, too, but she doesn't even know who's guilty so she gives hints all over the place and it's pretty inconsistent.
She's aware of that though, but she writes more for the pleasure of writing. When writing "seriously" she... well does the same, but then takes that, calls it a draft and starts planning.
So sometimes I don't really have "a plot", although this novel is very particular since things happen to everyone and it's very much "normal life". I have another one that basically takes characters and makes them go through an experience, right off the bat, and the rest is pretty much based on how they react to it (and events out of their control).
Oh, and show, don't tell, definitely.
I feel like character should be shown through dialog and action, and action doesn't mean mentioning that Joan twirls her long, blond hair 'round her slender, long finger when she's reading. I mean action, like what does she do when she hears her father died in a car crash, or that her best friend isn't going to camp with her or she finds $20 lying on the street? Have the character react to something! And if you can write a conversation and have the reader follow it with fewer then one "she said/he said" per four exchanges then you've written strong characters through dialog. If I can read a line and think, "That's so Joan!" you've done a good job.
I have to say that I can't imagine writing a mystery story without a plot in place though; that just seems like a lot of work :eek:. I'm also surprised you haven't gotten a plot for your ten characters yet. I'll admit it'll take me a few months to get a plot down, sometimes, but that's usually because I've only got one scene in my head, anyway
Actually, how do other people find stories? I usually see a scene play out in my head or wonder "What would happen if such a person had such a thing happen to them?". Do you feel that a strong plot creates a strong narrative? That an emotional change in one of the characters is necessary to signal the end of the story? Do you try to create a "lesson" for the reader to take away from your story, or do you aim only to create a sensual experience or present some aspect of life as honestly as possible?
I agree with you though, yeah, I don't want people to describe a character as being "soft" the first time I see him, and then forget about it. I want to get to know the person through his actions or thoughts or something (depends on the kind of thoughts though) and realise on my own that they're a sweet person.
Also would like to point out that I meant "sensual experience" in the sense of "sensory" not "erotic". I.e. the creation of a definite mood or emotional response is more important than the description of physical actions. Are you like Poe or Wilkie Collins?
Anyways, it depends on the story. I want the reader, in the end, to think they didn't waste their time reading the story. At the same time, that can come from the pleasure of reading.
I wish I had some stuff in English to show you. Right now I only have a story I wrote in school, but we were given the setting (just the setting, though) and, well, I have made progress since then!
... I think I'll upload it anyways. It's in a foreign language, sure (for me, not for you haha) but it probably still says something about me as a writer.
Okay, I wrote it in 2004. In 2007 I changed the names of the characters because I had used names invented by a friend (hey, it was for school, and it really didn't feel like stealing at the time, more of a reference) and removed the introductory paragraph that was provided to use by the teacher and introduced the setting.
I just looked at it, and... Ugh! But oh well. Oh, and it's 2 pages long, that was the space we had.
[URL="http://www.mediafire.com/file/dzzxn2owmwz/The Choice.doc"]Here you go[/URL], if you're interested.
... I definitely have to write a short story in English now, so I can provide people with something more recent >.>
Anyways, when I write short stories (which I don't do as often as I'd like) I come up with something - an idea, an image - and fill it up and flesh it out. Characters are interesting. I sometimes need to sit down and write out an extensive backstory; others, I pull someone out of my backlog. I tend to spend a lot of time thinking about people, trying to understand human nature and figure out what the effing problem with half of them is, so I usually find myself just casting one of those guys. It's never a dot-for-dot copy pasting of someone - I'd rather not be shot on my way to the bus stop - but rather my interpretation of that person. I twist them and turn them. It might be why I never finish stories. It's just a series of scenes.
I've found out, though, that casting bad characters - say, a racist - leads to interesting developments. I've also found that you can't do enough backstory. If, say, you're writing a short story about John Doe and you mention his wife Jill, then pick out a seperate piece of paper and write out how they met, how they ended-up married, and so on. Actually write it out. When you're done, you'll know your characters better. You won't struggle with them. They'll lead you, you'll write it, and
Aww great, I didn't know the end of King Kong