303 too easy and short

edited June 2010 in Sam & Max
I absolutly love the way it was made, but I solved almost all of the puzzles immediately. The hardest part was the
wrestling gambling
and that was still pretty easy. I was also amazed at how fast the ending came up as each part of the episode was very short and I kept expecting to do a lot more. Criticisms aside, I loved the episode and thought that the
Sammun-Mak worshipping
portion was extreamly clever and well-thought-out.

Comments

  • edited June 2010
    Yeah, I'm with you on this. It was strong on story, but not so tough puzzle-wise. 302 was better, partially because of the back and forth between reels. The organization of this episode (three distinct chapters) kind of made it difficult for the puzzles to be too convoluted, or to have a long lag/setup time. I think the ease of this episode is largely due to that structure.

    Plenty of funny, though. I lost it when
    Skunkape did his Paiperwaite impression.
  • edited June 2010
    I'm glad it didn't drag on too long. It was like playing three different episodes, and I would have liked it if they'd divided it up into a few weeks to reduce the waiting.
  • edited June 2010
    I have to disagree. This felt like one of the longest episodes of Sam and Max yet. Part of that may have been the scope. Having numerous different scenarios in one episode made it feel more grand than most, but even given that it still felt longer than really any other episode I can remember.

    I definitely didn't feel the puzzles were easier either. I got stuck a few times, which I can't recall happening in either episode 1 or 2. (Especially 1, where Future Vision practically outright gave you the answer to half the puzzles.) They certainly weren't the hardest puzzles ever, but they did feel more clever and well designed than most.
  • edited June 2010
    I didn't think it was short at all, but then again, I repeated the interrogations a number of times to fully explore every dialogue option, and so on.

    As for the puzzles, they weren't too challenging, but I don't think The Penal Zone was any harder (and The Tomb of Sammun-Mak was much easier, imo).
  • edited June 2010
    It felt unfinished. Way too many times did I get repeat in dialogue trees where it's usually not an issue. I don't want to right-click over dialogue but when I've heard it once I get bored. There were some graphic bugs too and I've never encountered bugs in a TTG game before, not like that anyways.

    The game was too short, but that might have been because I got lucky and solved all puzzles really fast. I expected at least another hour of gameplay. I think I beat the game in 3 hours where I usually take 4-5. I was tired as well :P.

    I would probably praise the episode if there were just some more stuff to do. When you've got that great music in the later stages, those great
    rats at the toaster shop
    then it begs for more stuff to be done. I want to hustle some basicly.

    Edit: It still beats any episode in s1 and s2.
  • edited June 2010
    I felt it was short, but the puzzles pretty much on par with the rest of the season.
    It works short though. Any longer and it would've felt dragged out, for sure.
    Brilliant humour.
  • edited June 2010
    What often happens to me in these games is that I have at least one thing in my inventory that I just keep STARING at, wondering, "Wtf am I going to use this for?" Or there's an interactive section of a location that I keep passing and fiddling with, hoping that it will become meaningful at some point. Then when it finally does, I have the moment of incredible revelation (which is often very funny).

    This game didn't have either of those things going on, because it really couldn't. In my mind, a smaller selection of objects that interact with each other means that the puzzles are easier as a group. An individual puzzle might be comparable, but if I'm not trying out 4 or 5 objects at every location, I'm going to get through them more quickly.
  • edited June 2010
    It's a shame so much detail went into elements that weren't really used! For instance,
    the various animatronics in the museum whilst being a bit funny, didn't really contribute much to the gameplay. The guided tour had all those options but only 2 were actually part of the puzzle. The end fight seemed strange, (unless I missed something) getting the pharaoh distracted by the light show, and the molemen in the pit, both seemed like they didn't contribute anything to the solution. There were those great tentacles outside Papierwaite's office, but since the door was locked from the inside and we could just teleport in anyway, they seemed kind of pointless. Papierwaite's whole office was there just for the map.

    I think while the psychic powers are an amazing innovation and produce some really inventive puzzles, in other ways they really limit the creative possibilities because there's so often going to just be a really easy and obvious solution.

    Still, the actual story and entertainment level is generally fantastic, and I look forward to seeing where it's all heading in the last two episodes!
  • edited June 2010
    museum has a arch waif a doll head on it hint hint
  • edited June 2010
    The episode was good. I really hated
    the interrogation part
    . This was much too long and not really what I would expect from a Sam & Max game.
    It was better when I finally got to control Max. I really liked all the things they put into the
    museum.
    The
    worshiping part
    was one of the greatest ideas they ever put into a Sam & Max-episode. I really liked it.
    After the firs part I took a longer break just to forget this ever happened but the rest of the episode was really good.

    playtime: 4hours. That's standard time for a TTG episode and about the same as any old Lucas Arts Adventure would be nowadays (I played through The Dig the first time some months ago. Took about 5-6 hours. and don't get me started on the 2.5 hours it took me to complete Loom for the first time) So no complaint about playtime here.
  • edited June 2010
    In terms of "play time", the Telltale series are excellent value for money. The entire series costs as much as a full price game, yet each individual episode gives you many hours of inital playthrough (and countless hours of replay value). And just when you've got over a series ending, another one starts; as opposed to wait of between 1 and 3 years with some full priced game franchises. I'm not even going to mention a certain well-respected developer of a certain famous FPS series in this thread :)

    Edit: of course, I have to add that the Telltale community adds immensely to the value of games and I'm able to happily waste a few extra days talking old toot on these forums. Unlike that "other" developer that I specifically didn't mention, whose forums appear to be mostly filled with 2-year-olds ;)
  • edited June 2010
    I think that this entire season has been pretty easy but maybe that is just because they are avoiding inventory puzzles. I can't actually remember using anything in this recent episode from my inventory apart from the headset and remote guide control. Oh and my gun once. Yes, that was satisfying. Mmm. Anyway, my point is that they are obviously going away from inventory puzzles and it's pretty awesome that they are trying new forms of gameplay and not the typical LucasArt kind. However... it's just really easy.

    The quick gameplay preserves the pace of the story though and in this season I think the story is actually brilliantly conceived (unlike previous seasons which have been a bit too patchy and unconnected for me). If the story weren't so strong, I'd be complaining about how easy it is. But it's almost worth sacrificing the joy of puzzle solving for a plot as good as this.

    Maybe. If the story flags in the slightest I will start to get grumpy... Because a few tough puzzles would also be nice.

    Oh- I play without hints on and yet still get hints. It has happened in every episode this season I think. Maybe what I class as a hint isn't what the Telltale team class as a hint? In this episode it was just a couple of lines.
    Like Sam saying that Frankie had lied to him (hinting that I ought to go and accuse Frankie of lying) and later something about how if only they had a toaster to give Samamak...
    I just think that having 0 on the hints level should actually mean no hints at all.
  • edited June 2010
    I'm not going to read everything here since I didn't finish the episode but I just want to say I didn't feel like the episode was especialy easy. Future vision makes sure you never get lost like you used to in the previous seasons and the hints direct you to where you need to be. So it does feel easyer but some of the puzzles were rather sophisticated and required you to have the right items at the time and placing and activating different characters. It felt abit like the old Goblins games =^^= I liked it and didn't feel like it was too easy.
  • edited June 2010
    Oh- I play without hints on and yet still get hints. It has happened in every episode this season I think. Maybe what I class as a hint isn't what the Telltale team class as a hint? In this episode it was just a couple of lines.
    Like Sam saying that Frankie had lied to him (hinting that I ought to go and accuse Frankie of lying) and later something about how if only they had a toaster to give Samamak...
    I just think that having 0 on the hints level should actually mean no hints at all.

    If I had to guess, the reason why those hints were not removed is that they are entrenched in the dialog options themselves-it is much harder to remove a comment made out of the regular hint system they made, as they would have to rewrite and reprogram scenes like that. I did wonder last episode if hints similar to that would be added or removed depending on the hint level, but apparently not.
  • edited June 2010
    Oh- I play without hints on and yet still get hints. It has happened in every episode this season I think. Maybe what I class as a hint isn't what the Telltale team class as a hint? In this episode it was just a couple of lines.
    Like Sam saying that Frankie had lied to him (hinting that I ought to go and accuse Frankie of lying) and later something about how if only they had a toaster to give Samamak...
    I just think that having 0 on the hints level should actually mean no hints at all.
    Got both (although I didn't recall the
    toaster
    one because I was already in the endgame by then, and thus it was useles.
    Also got one
    about using the salute on everyone when leaving the moles
    after I accidentily triggered the transition back walking about.

    I get the feeling there is a bug there sprewing hints even with 0, cause I have a hard time thinking of these as not hints, just like you.
  • edited June 2010
    I think that this entire season has been pretty easy but maybe that is just because they are avoiding inventory puzzles. I can't actually remember using anything in this recent episode from my inventory apart from the headset and remote guide control. Oh and my gun once. Yes, that was satisfying. Mmm. Anyway, my point is that they are obviously going away from inventory puzzles and it's pretty awesome that they are trying new forms of gameplay and not the typical LucasArt kind. However... it's just really easy.

    The quick gameplay preserves the pace of the story though and in this season I think the story is actually brilliantly conceived (unlike previous seasons which have been a bit too patchy and unconnected for me). If the story weren't so strong, I'd be complaining about how easy it is. But it's almost worth sacrificing the joy of puzzle solving for a plot as good as this.

    Maybe. If the story flags in the slightest I will start to get grumpy... Because a few tough puzzles would also be nice.

    I agree with this entirely. As much as I love a good inventory-fest, I don't necessarily want that in every adventure game I play. I think it's great that Telltale is leading this genre in some new directions.

    There is a point, though, at which a game could go too far in emphasizing cinematics over gameplay. It seems there are some here who might think 303 has reached that point already. Fair enough. But no game developer can please all the players all the time when it comes to finding the right balance.
  • edited June 2010
    thom-22 wrote: »
    I agree with this entirely. As much as I love a good inventory-fest, I don't necessarily want that in every adventure game I play. I think it's great that Telltale is leading this genre in some new directions.

    There is a point, though, at which a game could go too far in emphasizing cinematics over gameplay. It seems there are some here who might think 303 has reached that point already. Fair enough. But no game developer can please all the players all the time when it comes to finding the right balance.

    Sure, I'll buy that. I think as far as the season goes, placing the cinematic-heavy episode in the middle makes sense. Really, I'm not complaining about the balance, necessarily, just offering an explanation of why the puzzles may seem easier to some.
  • edited June 2010
    Removing inventory puzzles with just a single inventory item, rhinoplasty and base all puzzles around that is hardly an improvement in my book.

    Tomato-Tomatho- Inventory - Physic Powers

    There were a few ingenious puzzles in 301 that aren't just "use X on Y", but sadly none in 303...
  • edited June 2010
    serializer wrote: »
    the various animatronics in the museum whilst being a bit funny, didn't really contribute much to the gameplay. The guided tour had all those options but only 2 were actually part of the puzzle. The end fight seemed strange, (unless I missed something) getting the pharaoh distracted by the light show, and the molemen in the pit, both seemed like they didn't contribute anything to the solution. There were those great tentacles outside Papierwaite's office, but since the door was locked from the inside and we could just teleport in anyway, they seemed kind of pointless. Papierwaite's whole office was there just for the map.
    A) Giant monster attacking the city was the part of the puzzle where you trick Sal poke space ape guard's eyes. Pharoah's eyes are also somewhat part of the puzzle, because it gives the idea of 'poking something's eyes'. Yog Soggoth's stand was for the other puzzle you have to solve to make Skunkape and Papierwaite angry at each other. And, there is no more animatronic.
    B)You're missing a lot of things. After blinding Skunkape, hitting him and making him go one step back, if you haven't made Mole people angry, they don't pull Skunkape's feet to make him fall down. If you make Mole people angry and if Sammunmak's not distracted, Sammunmak casts a spell on moles to chill them out.
    C) Office was also there to hint that there is a relation between Papierwaite and Norrington. Also, for the Guybrush dance.

    I don't want to be rude but, you've made a lot of opinions that don't rely on complete facts, so I have to tell you that you should fiddle around a little more before saying things.

    Like you, a lot of people are making wrong assumptions EVEN after playing the game because they missed a critical aspect of a puzzle yet they were able to solve it by pure luck, and then start talk about the game's difficulty while they're oblivious about those more detailed aspects of such puzzles.

    Game wasn't easy. It was detailed. It was long (not as long as the second episode) and satisfying. Everyone that says otherwise backs their talk up with 'lack of detail', whilst they weren't given a chance of actually bothering theirselves about those details. I'm sorry for them, they missed a lot more satisfaction.

    I'm sorry for Telltale Games too, as I think the whole thing is purely disrespectful to them.
  • edited June 2010
    1. Nope, isn't part of the solution at all. Didn't see the poke hint connection either. And how can you forget the dinosaur?
    2. Wait? That was actually useful for something? I thought it was some cut content stuff too (mentioned such in my review). I think we kind of have the option to complain about puzzles if we can completely be oblivious to a puzzle being present at all...
    3. And the solution you mentioned in 1, opposed to the animatronic (which was my first thought when thinking of city too, but no option to use rhinoplasty).
  • edited June 2010
    1. Nope, isn't part of the solution at all. Didn't see the poke hint connection either. And how can you forget the dinosaur?
    2. Wait? That was actually useful for something? I thought it was some cut content stuff too (mentioned such in my review). I think we kind of have the option to complain about puzzles if we can completely be oblivious to a puzzle being present at all...
    3. And the solution you mentioned in 1, opposed to the animatronic (which was my first thought when thinking of city too, but no option to use rhinoplasty).
    1. It is the part of the solution, as Papierwaite did record his own voice to guide the tourists as there IS an animatronic of a beast destroying the city. When it's not seen, Sal looks for another beast destroying another city. Simple as that, it's part of the solution. Poke hint connection; Sal has to make the gorilla angry, there is an animatronic which you should poke its fingers to activate, so there is a record of Papierwaite telling tourists to poke its eyes, which can be used for Sal to poke gorilla's eyes instead.
    Yes, I forgot the dinosaur one, but it may be just there to fool players into misbelieving that it's a part of puzzle, as you said. So it's still part of the game. Wow, I dodged that one hard...
    2. Yes, you can actually complain about it. Still I think this season is more of an experiment, so I'm pretty sure they'll get the feedback and try to do something about it. I don't think they got any complaints about puzzles solving theirselves before, so it wasn't expected for them too.
    3. I actually used your saying on this one in the first part, sooo... I'll just use a silly smiley.

    o.ô
  • edited June 2010
    1. Ah. I can see what you mean now, but I was more thinking about that along lines on the device.
    They didn't need to animate the animatronics for those to work. And yet they did. And that had no gameplay function.

    I think the point it all boils down is that the museum set was awesome (albeit small), but got underutilised for the amount of work that obviously went into it.
  • edited June 2010
    1. Ah. I can see what you mean now, but I was more thinking about that along lines on the device.
    They didn't need to animate the animatronics for those to work. And yet they did. And that had no gameplay function.

    I think the point it all boils down is that the museum set was awesome (albeit small), but got underutilised for the amount of work that obviously went into it.

    I still think it had the most gameplay function it can have in a graphic adventure game.

    Yes, museum was small. But a lot of people doesn't think about the broad upper level segment where Max's brain is kept. Although this place didn't have anything to do except for some little dialouge, but it's still a place to count.
  • edited June 2010
    I must admit they didn't milk the museum for all its worth. Usually big places like that get recycled (or inovated in future episodes) beyond recognition. It may make a return.
  • edited June 2010
    Falanca wrote: »
    Like you, a lot of people are making wrong assumptions EVEN after playing the game because they missed a critical aspect of a puzzle yet they were able to solve it by pure luck, and then start talk about the game's difficulty while they're oblivious about those more detailed aspects of such puzzles.

    But that's exactly the problem -- lack of complexity in the puzzles leads to a higher likelihood of solving them by pure luck. That you can go back after finishing and fiddle around to see the details does not counteract the criticism that they were too easy in the first place.
    Falanca wrote: »
    I'm sorry for Telltale Games too, as I think the whole thing is purely disrespectful to them.

    I'm sure TT is grown-up enough to understand that no matter what they do, someone is going to dislike it. It's not like they gave us the game as a gift. We paid money for it and the fact that it gets criticized is just commerce as usual. Besides, at least some of those who are saying it was too easy, myself included, are also saying that they truly loved the game, for all its other strengths.
  • PsyPsy
    edited June 2010
    It's not like we're sitting around saying WELL PTOOEY ON YOUIE.

    The people involved with writing and designing episodes pay attention to what people talk about liking and not liking. That's not to say that every time we see a suggestion on the forums we're going to take it immediately... Just that we can take feedback and use it wisely :)


    So if you hated the episode and wish we'd never do anything like it again, feel free to say so! And if you loved the episode and want us to make them all the same way, say that too! (Most of you already are anyway >_>)
  • edited June 2010
    Falanca wrote: »
    A) Giant monster attacking the city was the part of the puzzle where you trick Sal poke space ape guard's eyes. Pharoah's eyes are also somewhat part of the puzzle, because it gives the idea of 'poking something's eyes'. Yog Soggoth's stand was for the other puzzle you have to solve to make Skunkape and Papierwaite angry at each other. And, there is no more animatronic.
    B)You're missing a lot of things. After blinding Skunkape, hitting him and making him go one step back, if you haven't made Mole people angry, they don't pull Skunkape's feet to make him fall down. If you make Mole people angry and if Sammunmak's not distracted, Sammunmak casts a spell on moles to chill them out.
    C) Office was also there to hint that there is a relation between Papierwaite and Norrington. Also, for the Guybrush dance.

    I don't want to be rude but, you've made a lot of opinions that don't rely on complete facts, so I have to tell you that you should fiddle around a little more before saying things.

    Like you, a lot of people are making wrong assumptions EVEN after playing the game because they missed a critical aspect of a puzzle yet they were able to solve it by pure luck, and then start talk about the game's difficulty while they're oblivious about those more detailed aspects of such puzzles.

    Game wasn't easy. It was detailed. It was long (not as long as the second episode) and satisfying. Everyone that says otherwise backs their talk up with 'lack of detail', whilst they weren't given a chance of actually bothering theirselves about those details. I'm sorry for them, they missed a lot more satisfaction.

    I'm sorry for Telltale Games too, as I think the whole thing is purely disrespectful to them.

    Ok ... where to start? As Psy has also pointed out, there's nothing wrong with giving some feedback to Telltale as to what did and didn't work for me in this episode. I'm loving the series overall and I think that is pretty obvious from my comments! Certainly no disrespect intended, and I assume none was taken.

    Now, you're telling me that my opinions aren't valid even though I've completed the game, and am simply stating my opinions having done so. In what sense am I not aware of the facts of my playthrough of the same? It shouldn't require playing through a game twice to be able to state a valid opinion of it ... should it?

    Ok, so there are apparently a couple of puzzles I basically completed entirely by accident, simply by clicking on everything and trying all the options. This is an area for Telltale to look at in their puzzle design, basically when there are only a small number of options it's way too easy to just click a few things and not see how the solution actually fitted together.

    However there might be a couple of actual bugs with the puzzles we're talking about;
    As far as I can remember, the monster/city diorama wasn't hidden when I got Sal to poke the ape's eyes. Unless I'd got Sal to hide it by clicking other options randomly. But I'm pretty sure I hadn't got him to do that one.

    And, in the final fight, I'm pretty certain that Sammun-Mak had just cast the spell on the mole people, because I was actively trying all the wrong options to work out what their functions were.

    This is why I didn't think these bits appeared to have any use. It now seems to me that game bugs possibly caused me to solve the puzzles far too easily.

    Either way, I think that for all the beautiful design work that went into the game, there was a lot more mileage in some of the set pieces and situations, and it just seems a shame not to have taken advantage of that.

    But I appreciate that it's really hard to come up with innovative, interesting and complex puzzles month after month, and not everything is going to work how the designers intended!
  • edited June 2010
    serializer wrote: »
    Ok ... where to start? As Psy has also pointed out, there's nothing wrong with giving some feedback to Telltale as to what did and didn't work for me in this episode. I'm loving the series overall and I think that is pretty obvious from my comments! Certainly no disrespect intended, and I assume none was taken.

    Now, you're telling me that my opinions aren't valid even though I've completed the game, and am simply stating my opinions having done so. In what sense am I not aware of the facts of my playthrough of the same? It shouldn't require playing through a game twice to be able to state a valid opinion of it ... should it?

    Ok, so there are apparently a couple of puzzles I basically completed entirely by accident, simply by clicking on everything and trying all the options. This is an area for Telltale to look at in their puzzle design, basically when there are only a small number of options it's way too easy to just click a few things and not see how the solution actually fitted together.

    However there might be a couple of actual bugs with the puzzles we're talking about;
    As far as I can remember, the monster/city diorama wasn't hidden when I got Sal to poke the ape's eyes. Unless I'd got Sal to hide it by clicking other options randomly. But I'm pretty sure I hadn't got him to do that one.

    And, in the final fight, I'm pretty certain that Sammun-Mak had just cast the spell on the mole people, because I was actively trying all the wrong options to work out what their functions were.

    This is why I didn't think these bits appeared to have any use. It now seems to me that game bugs possibly caused me to solve the puzzles far too easily.

    Either way, I think that for all the beautiful design work that went into the game, there was a lot more mileage in some of the set pieces and situations, and it just seems a shame not to have taken advantage of that.

    But I appreciate that it's really hard to come up with innovative, interesting and complex puzzles month after month, and not everything is going to work how the designers intended!

    Ah, yes, you deserve an apologize. I was simply carried away because I loved the episode and the negative criticism... Yeah, I'm always childish so I couldn't handle it unlike the very creators of the game.

    Your opinions are valid enough, but I was (in a rage) trying to tell you that there is still a side of the situation you haven't seen yet. Despite how rude I was, I was still trying to show you that side.

    Yes, and if you ask me, it's really unfortunate for you. It's a fault in game design to make players able to actually solve the puzzle while just trying to find which does what, before trying to find a sensible order. I made a thread about it just minutes ago, pointing those out. I also think they should work on this too, because this season seems to be having too much of that kind of puzzles. And they lead to that kind of situations, so... Yeah. Sorry about that again.
  • edited June 2010
    Falanca wrote: »
    Ah, yes, you deserve an apologize. I was simply carried away because I loved the episode and the negative criticism... Yeah, I'm always childish so I couldn't handle it unlike the very creators of the game.

    Your opinions are valid enough, but I was (in a rage) trying to tell you that there is still a side of the situation you haven't seen yet. Despite how rude I was, I was still trying to show you that side.

    Yes, and if you ask me, it's really unfortunate for you. It's a fault in game design to make players able to actually solve the puzzle while just trying to find which does what, before trying to find a sensible order. I made a thread about it just minutes ago, pointing those out. I also think they should work on this too, because this season seems to be having too much of that kind of puzzles. And they lead to that kind of situations, so... Yeah. Sorry about that again.

    No problems, I am loving this series as well, its just such a shame when puzzle solutions don't feel quite as satisfying as they should, what with everything else being so excellent! I've added to your other thread in a bit more detail and a couple more things that occurred to me since.
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