Are this games easy/hard enough?

edited July 2010 in Sam & Max
OK, it's an old discussion, but really, when Telltale published the first season of Sam & Max, back in 200?, many of us thought that the games weren't hard enough. In my case, I assumed that Telltale would be increasing the difficulty gradually game to game.

But here we are, 2010. I think the new episodes aren't so easy, at least not so easy as the episodes of the first season. But, in my opinion, the puzzles are still too simple (although very original, OK), and the solution is always too straight, never a chain of tasks like in the 90's games.

So I wonder if other players, that also like Telltale stuff, think like me or not. Maybe a lot of people think this way and, together, we could ask Telltale for an improvement in this way for at least some of their games.

Greetings.
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Comments

  • edited June 2010
    Most disagree with the idea that they have been becoming harder. The games, to many, are getting easier. That is likely because the puzzles have become more logical. I know that I have been able to beat the recent episodes without much, if any, help. That may be because I persevere more than I used to, though.
  • PsyPsy
    edited June 2010
    A friend of mine spent 16 hours on episode 2 without completing it. Another friend beat it in two hours.

    Just saying, people of very different skill levels play our games. If we make them soul crushingly hard, then we'll make just as many people angry as if we make them ridiculously simple. We try to find a middle road.
  • edited June 2010
    There is logical, and then there is "giving the solution away" (as happened sometimes in 301) or basically "Here, have a power. 5 possible options to use it on, find which one you need when in the 5 'puzzles'" (303).
  • edited June 2010
    I've read more than one reviews pointing out that They Stole Max's Brain is too easy and this is all Future Vision's fault. My friend started yesterday and still unable to finish it. And I finished it in 5 hours and liked its difficulty, I thought the puzzles were REALLY well-designed, they made me think I accomplished something when I solved them.

    The middle road in difficulty is found, I think. As I stated, solving the puzzles gives MUCH satisfaction, and this is the important thing. But whoever says the game's easy is just trying to show off. I beat the game in one night, too, but I admit the puzzles actually needs brainwork!

    Oh, and, have I told you that I beat the game in one single night? Because, heheh, that's what I did. Heheh.
  • PsyPsy
    edited June 2010
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    What do you think would be a good reward for finishing a puzzle that's unnecessary and far more difficult that normal?
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What do you think would be a good reward for finishing a puzzle that's unnecessary and far more difficult that normal?

    Ego.
  • edited June 2010
    We try to find a middle road.

    I think all of us are sure of that. And I'm sure Aristotle would agree too. But you can find the middle road in a very extensive pile of different ways. And it's very hard to find the point in that.

    Out there are games of an incredible, bloody and storming difficult level, that you can only play during a nightmare. Almost nobody wants that, but there it is.

    The other extreme point isn't good too. If you want to play a game, you don't want to watch a movie.

    But the poll is for that. Many of us don't know if your games are easy or hard for the most of the players. Maybe some games harder for a different audience wouldn't hurt. And easier too.

    Anyway, you can always introduce the levels of difficulty again, like in that thing called Monkey2, ;-).

    Greetings.
  • edited June 2010
    I find Telltale's games hard enough for me.
    Psy wrote: »
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    What do you think would be a good reward for finishing a puzzle that's unnecessary and far more difficult that normal?

    I think this would be pretty cool. The one problem I see is that you'd have to make it clear to the player that the ultra-hard puzzle is optional so they don't spend days solving it and then find out they didn't need to in order to finish the game.
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    What do you think would be a good reward for finishing a puzzle that's unnecessary and far more difficult that normal?
    Maybe more along the lines of MI2 and MI3... an "normal" mode and the "Mega-Monkey" ("Mega-Max"?) mode with more puzzles.

    Why should there be a reward? I don't think gamers really need a boon each and everytime they do something right.
    Then again, most of the game community seems to disagree me on that.

    EDIT: Actually, more puzzles probably means more dialogue. Means more gags. Should be a reward by itself, no?

    (Still would be nice to have something akin to achievements/"have you tried" in the PC version though, but... we're getting off the topic).
  • edited June 2010
    I find Telltale's games hard enough for me.



    I think this would be pretty cool. The one problem I see is that you'd have to make it clear to the player that the ultra-hard puzzle is optional so they don't spend days solving it and then find out they didn't need to in order to finish the game.

    have it appear ,like getting a new item or physic toy, into the note book as a small seperate case that sam and max do when they get bored of the case they are dog but some thing like this couldn't be done this season because of the whole feel,mood and the fact thaty there are only 2 episodes to go.
  • edited June 2010
    Personally, I find all games way too easy these days. The entire industry just got watered down once games became commercially popular.

    When I first started playing games (mid-to-late eighties) you basically had to be superhuman to ever complete them. Games were designed to never be completed and have endless replay value. These days, most games are expected to be completed in a single sitting. The landscape has changed somewhat!
  • PsyPsy
    edited June 2010
    Multiple difficulty levels... It's a cool idea, and I'm not going to be all "We'll NEVER do that" because someday someone will quote it and start screaming, but it would add a ton of extra effort for our programmers and I really doubt it would make the game significantly 'better.'
    Personally, I find all games way too easy these days. The entire industry just got watered down once games became commercially popular.
    I don't like bands anymore when my friends start to like them. I mean, anyway, the thing is, games *have* to be reasonably easy, because if someone can win a game, they'll be more interested in buying the next one. Ditching the concept of commercial viability and making an incredibly difficult, fan-centric game is an excellent idea for die hard fans, but a company which intends to make more than one game MUST pay attention to what sells and what doesn't. We can't make a super hard game just because we think the idea is cool... these games cost an incredible amount of money to make and if we don't get a return on that we can't make more :P
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    Multiple difficulty levels... It's a cool idea, and I'm not going to be all "We'll NEVER do that" because someday someone will quote it and start screaming, but it would add a ton of extra effort for our programmers and I really doubt it would make the game significantly 'better.'

    I don't like bands anymore when my friends start to like them. I mean, anyway, the thing is, games *have* to be reasonably easy, because if someone can win a game, they'll be more interested in buying the next one. Ditching the concept of commercial viability and making an incredibly difficult, fan-centric game is an excellent idea for die hard fans, but a company which intends to make more than one game MUST pay attention to what sells and what doesn't. We can't make a super hard game just because we think the idea is cool... these games cost an incredible amount of money to make and if we don't get a return on that we can't make more :P

    Sure, I understand the reasons. But I'm harking back to an era when for one thing games cost a hell of a lot less to make. I just miss those days :)
  • edited June 2010
    I like the difficulty level of Telltales games. Personally, yes, I hardly ever get stuck and complete the episodes in 4-6hours each. But, with the internet came the loss of patience, and now if I get stuck on anything for too long I am going to go looking for a walkthrough, and there is no satisfaction in that.

    Its sad, and I suppose I don't -have- to go look for a walkthrough, and I'd rather I didn't, but I still find myself peeking.
  • edited June 2010
    It's a sad day now that Psy has confirmed there will be no difficulty levels, as stated here:
    Psy wrote: »
    We'll NEVER do that
    :p

    Yeah, it would add complexity, but unless the "middle road" is turned up to, that seems to be the only way to add some more challenge for us that crave it (thinking of it as replacing the hint system, so there is no more need to work at that either, saving resources for a "better" system).
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    That's what you're doing with Puzzle Agent, isn't? In one of the previews I read, they talked about how there were relatively simple "gold" puzzles that needed to be solved for purposes of the story and more difficult "silver" puzzles that you could do just for fun. I can't wait to play the game to see how this works, but I really like the idea.
  • edited June 2010
    I have to admit that I had to go look at some hints and walkthoughts many times.
    Many of the puzzles was really making me annoyed, and yet after seeing the solution it seemed so simple, and many times it was because I missed the obvious or wasn't paying attention.
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    A friend of mine spent 16 hours on episode 2 without completing it. Another friend beat it in two hours.

    Just saying, people of very different skill levels play our games. If we make them soul crushingly hard, then we'll make just as many people angry as if we make them ridiculously simple. We try to find a middle road.

    And doing a good job with it!

    Although episode 2 was kind of easy, I think it was the best episode of this season so far.
  • edited June 2010
    Well, my 2 cents is that the difficulty should be similar to the difficulty of the first 4 King's Quest games.
  • edited June 2010
    caeska wrote: »
    Well, my 2 cents is that the difficulty should be similar to the difficulty of the first 4 King's Quest games.

    I'm with this guy ;)

    To me, it seems a shame when the difficulty of a game has to be "dumbed down" just so it can appeal to everyone. I realise the business reasons for such decisions... But really, these are clearly quite adult games and most adults are these days are capable of some fairly advanced logical reasoning and lateral thinking!
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What do you think would be a good reward for finishing a puzzle that's unnecessary and far more difficult that normal?

    A steam-Achievement.
    Or Maybe a collectable Toy Of Power that unlocks some funny lines in a second playthrough but does nothing else. Like the nutrious specs.
    Or maybe something similar to the Extended Play Mode of the strong Bad games. I really loved the Extended Play mode for Dangeresque 3. It was kind of a making of. Could be a good place to show off some of the artwork for the episode etc.
  • edited June 2010
    The three episodes so far are on the easy side for those familiar with adventure games, but probably just about right for new comers.
  • edited June 2010
    der_ketzer wrote: »
    A steam-Achievement.
    Or Maybe a collectable Toy Of Power that unlocks some funny lines in a second playthrough but does nothing else. Like the nutrious specs.

    The argument will of course be that this creates a LOT of extra work for a non-essential part of the game.

    However I, for one, would be happy to pay a more for the games if they were made more challenging in some way. $35 is really very cheap for around 20 hours of quality entertainment. Since the quality of the games (in terms of graphics, writing, scope, innovation) has been constantly improving perhaps it makes sense to charge a little more now and make it worthwhile for you to add in a few extras that you otherwise won't have the budget to do!
  • edited June 2010
    Takes me a few hours to beat a episode, it's what you would expect from an episodic game, because if you think about it, all 5 episodes could take up to 30 hours to beat.
  • edited June 2010
    I reckon the puzzles in the current season are a little on the easy side (at least for someone who grew up playing adventure games) but better than previous seasons. There were a few that I felt good about solving by myself which is nice.

    What's annoying is that, even though I have the hint setting on minimum, characters often randomly blurt out a line that gives the whole thing away. Surely if the player has chosen the hardest difficulty setting they should get the minimum amount of information possible to solve the puzzles. They can't complain it's too hard if they choose to play it on 'hard', right?
  • edited June 2010
    I reckon the puzzles in the current season are a little on the easy side (at least for someone who grew up playing adventure games) but better than previous seasons. There were a few that I felt good about solving by myself which is nice.

    What's annoying is that, even though I have the hint setting on minimum, characters often randomly blurt out a line that gives the whole thing away. Surely if the player has chosen the hardest difficulty setting they should get the minimum amount of information possible to solve the puzzles. They can't complain it's too hard if they choose to play it on 'hard', right?

    I find the hints quite irritating, often it's when I've blatantly worked something out and am on my way to do it, but just killing some time trying a few other things out first to get some funny reactions! But the characters just keep on telling me what I'm supposed to be doing... I also don't really find the hints particularly helpful even when I am a bit stuck. I usually just hit the forums if I need help!

    So I'd love to be able to switch them off altogether.
  • edited June 2010
    In my opinion some of the older TT games were more difficult, in a good way.

    Feels like to me episode 4 of W&G is when it started to get a little too simple, particularly in the second half, and they've continued dumbing down [so to speak] their games, except for Trial and Execution of Guybrush which I thought was back to being more of a 'game' and not just an 'interactive story.'

    In my opinion...
  • edited June 2010
    Catfish33 wrote: »
    Feels like to me episode 4 of W&G is when it started to get a little too simple,

    that was the hardest episode in the season...
  • edited June 2010
    der_ketzer wrote: »
    that was the hardest episode in the season...

    Not to me. I dunno, it seemed easy to me. I'm not trying to sound cool or anything..
  • edited June 2010
    serializer wrote: »
    So I'd love to be able to switch them off altogether.
    There's a setting in the Options screen for 'Hint level'. It's on two or three by default, but you can set it to less or even off, so you don't get any hints. If you're stuck, you can always turn them back on again.
  • edited June 2010
    Didero wrote: »
    There's a setting in the Options screen for 'Hint level'. It's on two or three by default, but you can set it to less or even off, so you don't get any hints. If you're stuck, you can always turn them back on again.

    I've tried setting it to off but there are still hints occasionally (as others have also reported). Even on the lowest level, I think the hints are way more often than they should be.

    In all honesty I would prefer if there were no automatic hints, but instead you could just talk to Max whenever you want to ask for a hint.
  • edited June 2010
    serializer wrote: »
    I've tried setting it to off but there are still hints occasionally (as others have also reported). Even on the lowest level, I think the hints are way more often than they should be.

    In all honesty I would prefer if there were no automatic hints, but instead you could just talk to Max whenever you want to ask for a hint.

    I wonder if there's a technical problem here. I turned the hints off, probably before I even clicked new game, and never got any automatic hints. I just played around with the setting and it seems like you need to reload before changes in the hint setting take effect. :confused:
    Didero wrote: »
    If you're stuck, you can always turn them back on again.

    That's exactly how I play the games. There were a couple times in Season 2 and in TOMI where I went and turned on hints until I heard one, then turned them off again. So far in Season 3, I've never come close to needing a hint.
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    It's not necessary to do this. There could be a higher difficulty level where the same main plot points need more "setup" work. It worked very well in Pandora Directive.
  • edited June 2010
    It's not necessary to do this. There could be a higher difficulty level where the same main plot points need more "setup" work. It worked very well in Pandora Directive.

    the problem is that you are designing 1 extra puzzle versus a completely different path through the gam // actually 2 games. I really think this would not be possible in a month since both ways through the game need to be programmed and tested.
  • edited June 2010
    der_ketzer wrote: »
    the problem is that you are designing 1 extra puzzle versus a completely different path through the gam // actually 2 games. I really think this would not be possible in a month since both ways through the game need to be programmed and tested.

    No, you got it wrong - it's one single path through the game, but the easier one contains a few shortcuts. The programming is not really an issue. For example, 303 could have used a few more item puzzles - in that case you set up new items, add them to some event matrix (or whatever technique Telltale is using), and you're set. Testing can get more complex, yes, and new items need artwork, create extra dialog lines, maybe even cutscenes, etc. But I didn't say it wasn't extra work.
  • edited June 2010
    I have no problem with the current level of puzzle difficulty, but I think they could just make some extra hard mode puzzles per episode that give you special unlockables for completing them, like concept art etc. :)
  • edited June 2010
    I think the difficulty-problem is relatively easy to solve. I too think the games are a bit too easy puzzle-wise - but very entertaining in every other way. The big problem is - as some people above have already mentioned - that we get hints even with the hint level off! Future vision in 301, lines like "I wish we could put words into her mouth" in 302 and "The rat lied to me!" (or something to that effect in the start of 303. Etc, etc. We very rarely have to wrack our brains with how to completely a puzzle - we are given hints all the time.

    With the hints level at 0 there should be none of these hints. Preferable Telltale should make this level so tricky to figure out that it is impossible not to get stuck. I want to get stuck! Only masochists like us old Sierra and Lucasarts gamers should want to turn the hints off. The hint level at medium or the default setting should be as the games are now on the "hints off" setting. Then there would maybe be no shame in us gamers using these hints, as it is a feature which I understand TTG are very proud of having developed. Plus it gives us extra lines of dialogue. I always get annoyed when I read on the forums that players use walkthroughs whenever they get stuck, instead of using the hint system. The few times I've got stuck, I've simply turned the hint level up a few notches for a couple of minutes. That way I don't feel like I've cheated, since the game itself helped me out.
  • edited June 2010
    The Devil's Playhouse has been easy so far. I've stumbled a few times, but was never completely stuck. I think the first season had the best difficulty; some puzzles were relatively simple but there were a few really tricky ones.
  • edited June 2010
    I can mostly figure out the solutions pretty fast, as most of the times they are pretty obvious. And even though I have 0 hint level, there are still hints in the conversations, or the camera zooms in on something etc :/

    a good exampe is
    the newspaper stand at the gift vault. Sam says it even has a picture, and it zooms in on it if you go there again
    without those hints it could have been a puzzle in the style of the old LA games
  • edited June 2010
    Psy wrote: »
    What would you think of incredibly difficult superfluous side puzzles that didn't affect the outcome of the game but gave you a cool cutscene or something if you finished them?

    As one of those thinking that Season 3 is too easy, I have to say that the above proposal is not appealing at all. It sounds like busy work for us and for you.
    Psy wrote: »
    ... games *have* to be reasonably easy, because if someone can win a game, they'll be more interested in buying the next one. Ditching the concept of commercial viability and making an incredibly difficult, fan-centric game is an excellent idea for die hard fans, but a company which intends to make more than one game MUST pay attention to what sells and what doesn't.

    I totally get this. I understand that TT wants and needs to appeal to a larger segment of the games market, beyond just traditional adventure fans. As someone familiar with owning a small business, I would never complain about that. I also very much appreciate and support TT's efforts to innovate new game-play mechanics. Old-style adventure games -- where the difficulty level stemmed, in part, from huge inventories, a long verb menu, pixel hunting, red herrings, lots of backtracking, etc -- are a thing of the past, it wouldn't sell in today's market, and I'm fine with that.
    Psy wrote: »
    Just saying, people of very different skill levels play our games. If we make them soul crushingly hard, then we'll make just as many people angry as if we make them ridiculously simple. We try to find a middle road.

    I'm not asking for games that are "soul-crushingly" difficult. I'm just saying that, to me, Season 3 is less challenging than previous seasons and TOMI in general; and that TSMB is easier than the first two episodes of this season in particular. Maybe it's not so much that the puzzles, individually, are easier, but that there are fewer of them going on at the same time. With TSMB divided into three sequential acts, the game world was smaller at any given time, fewer usable items and points of interaction, thus less complexity for us to sort through. It seemed like, after surveying the game world -- finding all the hotspots, going through the cut-scenes and dialogs -- the objectives and their solutions were mostly obvious. Less complexity also means a greater chance of solving puzzles by accident as some folks seem to have done.

    So I'm just hoping there isn't an ongoing trend toward simpler games at TT, especially wrt Sam & Max, as you try to find that "middle road".
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