german of today is very straightforward and sterile
"Sterile"? How can a language be "sterile"? Juicy dirty talk's also possible in German.
After living one year in Holland and coming back I have to admit that I understand what people mean by saying it sounds harsh. It's not exactly a beautiful language, but it's precise. And that's not a bad thing.
Deutsch ist eine wunderbare Sprache; man muß sie nur richtig verwenden. Es gibt fantastische Texte und auch wohl klingende Dialekte. Für mich ist's die schönste Sprache, die ich bisher gehört, gelesen und vor allem gesprochen sowie geschrieben habe. :O)
This is a really interesting thread. I love trying to learn new languages. German has always struck me as a very musical language in spite of being a bit harsh. There's a reason a lot of traditional opera and song was in German.
Maybe I should try to make one like this for Japanese .
As an Ancient Greek and Latin student, I sometimes wish I had decided to study languages that were more... useful... and less... dead.
Try and look at the bright side. Now that you know Latin, you'll have an easier time learning all the Latin languages! And ancient Greek probably helps at least some with modern Greek!
Ich bin gross Monkey Island fan! => Ich bin ein grosser Monkey Island Fan!
Adjective are changed depending on the gender if they are used before the noun.
That is a big house =>Das ist ein grosses Haus
The house is big => Das Haus ist gross
He is a big boy => Er ist ein grosser Junge
He is big => Er ist gross
So, let me get this straight: adjectives agree if they're direct complements, but not if they're indirect complements. Did I get that right?
EDIT: you only talked about gender. Agreeing can be based on gender but also numbers. Do adjectives also agree in numbers when they're direct? (As in, singular is different from plural).
(I have this all writen in a book somewhere, but don't know where it is so appologies if I have made mistakes, and is no doubt not the full explanation)
The ending on an adjective all depends on whether it is plural or singular, gender and then case.
There are trables than can be written out to show which should be used with what such as the word for 'the'
M---F--N--Pl
Nom der die das die
Acc den die das die
Gen des der des der
Dat dem der dem den
then the endings depend on where the word for the is used, or whether you need a marker to define the gender and whether it is singular or plural
If the word for the is used, then the adjective will be as followed
M F N Pl
Nom e e e en
Acc en e e en
Gen en en en en
Dat en en en en
then when you don't use the word for the, and use a, then it follows
M F N Pl
Nom er e es e
Acc en e es e
Gen es er es er
Dat em er em en
So when you have an noun, you know what case it is from the adjectives or word for the, and so the word order is more versatile than in english. For example you can say both:
Die Katze sah den Hund and Den Hund sah die Katze, both meaning the same thing.
Suddenly I remember why I'm so terrible in German.
Would you mind explaining the cases for everyone? Very slowly if possible? And what words use them and stuff?
I stopped studying both Latin and German because of declinations. I just couldn't get the hang of it. It's been over ten years now though so I'm definitely willing to give it another try.
In terms I understand and so therefore are probably basic and wrong:
In german and english, 4 cases (though some european languages have 8).
The Nominative, Accusative, Dative and Genitive.
The Nominative is the noun which does the verb, such as 'I' in I eat Pizza.
In this sentance, Pizza would be in the accusative, because it is what the verb is doing the action to. This is the direct object in the sentance.
The Dative is usually when the noun is an indirect object in the sentance, as in the verb isn't done to it.
As for the Genitive, this shows possesion and is usually where we in english see the word 'of', or 's added onto nouns.
The accusative and dative are also used with preositions (in, on, under, around etc.)
There are three lists in German for what case a preposition takes:
"Um, ohne, durch, für, gegen, entlang, wider, bis" always take the accusative and "mit, nach, seit, von, zu, aus, außer, gegenüber" always take the dative.
All the other prepositions depend on whether there is movement involved or not. When there is movement it takes the accusative, if not, the dative.
Finally, some verbs, such as to help, take the dative.
Suddenly I remember why I'm so terrible in German.
Would you mind explaining the cases for everyone? Very slowly if possible? And what words use them and stuff?
I stopped studying both Latin and German because of declinations. I just couldn't get the hang of it. It's been over ten years now though so I'm definitely willing to give it another try.
If it helps to think about it, personal pronouns in both French and English are still declined to some degree.
For example, let's look at the sentence "Je le lui donne" ("I give it to him.") Obviously word order is extremely strict in French, but you could theoretically rearrange the words to something like "Le donne lui je" and still make some kind of sense out of it (kind of, sort of, maybe...) You still know that "je" must be the subject because it's in its subject form; it's "je" and not "me." Likewise, "le" must be a direct object, and "lui" must be an indirect object.
Maybe that's a dumb example. I'm not a native or even a fluent speaker of French, so I don't know how much sense that made. But basically, in a language with declination like Latin, all nouns and adjectives have inflected forms that reflect their syntactic function, just like pronouns in English and French.
I could go into a lot more detail, but I'd have to talk about Latin or Greek grammar specifically, because that's what I know...
I see what you mean, but it's pronouns... I'm used to it with pronouns. Not nouns. I guess it's silly when you think about it because you're right, pronouns are different depending on whether they're subject (je, tu, il/elle/on, nous, vous, ils/elles), direct object (me, te, le/la, nous, vous, les) or indirect object (me, te, lui, nous, vous, leur).
(Note that a lot of them do stay the same though).
It might help me thinking of it that way though. Instead of it being with just pronouns, thinking of it being with nouns too. Maybe that will help me remember it and "get it". Thank you so much for that perspective
EDIT: oh, and of course, there is also "moi, toi, lui/elle, nous, vous, eux/elles."
Well personally I cannot cope with french, the words although spelt differently often have similar sounds and although I'd like to be able to speak it, I just couldn't get the hang of it.
Russian's rather hard to get a grips with, sometimes they just cut out pronouns altogether and use the verbs as the verb ending lets you know enough!
Russian's rather hard to get a grips with, sometimes they just cut out pronouns altogether and use the verbs as the verb ending lets you know enough!
Yeah, that's what's called a "pro-drop" language. Latin, Greek, and Spanish are like that too.
Another way of thinking about cases: noun cases are used instead of certain prepositional constructions. So, for instance, French nouns have no possessive form. You can't say "the king's daughter;" you have to say "the daughter of the king" ("la fille du roi.") English has a possessive case, and it allows us to express the same thing in a slightly more concise way.
Basically, it's a trade off. A language in the Indo-European family will either have a noun case for something, or it will have a prepositional construction for it. A genitive case is used for possessive and partitive constructions instead of "of." A dative case is used for indirect objects instead of "to." An ablative case is used instead of "from." An instrumental case is used instead of "with." A locative case is used instead of "in." And so on.
Theoretically a language could have tons of different cases and no prepositions, but most will have only a couple unique, stand-alone cases and then one or more oblique cases that get paired with prepositions.
There are, of course, some cases that can't really be matched with prepositional phrases. The nominative is used for subjects and frequently also for indirect complements in copulative constructions. The accusative is used for direct objects. The vocative case is used for direct addresses. Most non-declined languages represent these through word order and punctuation.
But you get the idea. Noun cases are just different ways of expressing the same sorts of things that prepositions and word order are used to express in other languages.
Comments
"Sterile"? How can a language be "sterile"? Juicy dirty talk's also possible in German.
After living one year in Holland and coming back I have to admit that I understand what people mean by saying it sounds harsh. It's not exactly a beautiful language, but it's precise. And that's not a bad thing.
Maybe I should try to make one like this for Japanese
Not the letter "e." When stressed, it sounds like the "a" in "paper." When unstressed, it sounds like the "a" in "Tricia."
Try and look at the bright side. Now that you know Latin, you'll have an easier time learning all the Latin languages! And ancient Greek probably helps at least some with modern Greek!
Adjective are changed depending on the gender if they are used before the noun.
That is a big house =>Das ist ein grosses Haus
The house is big => Das Haus ist gross
He is a big boy => Er ist ein grosser Junge
He is big => Er ist gross
That's a good quote, and one worthy of a (hopefully more or less accurate) translation:
"Quattuor annos linguae Latinae studui, atque vero sola quae accepi ampla intelligentia Aeneidis et aliquot optimae contumeliae erant."
So, let me get this straight: adjectives agree if they're direct complements, but not if they're indirect complements. Did I get that right?
EDIT: you only talked about gender. Agreeing can be based on gender but also numbers. Do adjectives also agree in numbers when they're direct? (As in, singular is different from plural).
The ending on an adjective all depends on whether it is plural or singular, gender and then case.
There are trables than can be written out to show which should be used with what such as the word for 'the'
M---F--N--Pl
Nom der die das die
Acc den die das die
Gen des der des der
Dat dem der dem den
then the endings depend on where the word for the is used, or whether you need a marker to define the gender and whether it is singular or plural
If the word for the is used, then the adjective will be as followed
M F N Pl
Nom e e e en
Acc en e e en
Gen en en en en
Dat en en en en
then when you don't use the word for the, and use a, then it follows
M F N Pl
Nom er e es e
Acc en e es e
Gen es er es er
Dat em er em en
So when you have an noun, you know what case it is from the adjectives or word for the, and so the word order is more versatile than in english. For example you can say both:
Die Katze sah den Hund and Den Hund sah die Katze, both meaning the same thing.
Der Hund beißt den Mensch. (unberichtenswert/not news)
Den Hund beißt der Mensch. (berichtenswert/news)
Would you mind explaining the cases for everyone? Very slowly if possible? And what words use them and stuff?
I stopped studying both Latin and German because of declinations. I just couldn't get the hang of it. It's been over ten years now though so I'm definitely willing to give it another try.
Wow! I actually understood some of that! And not at all because I already knew what it said. >.>
I guess I learned a bit more in Latin than I thought.
In german and english, 4 cases (though some european languages have 8).
The Nominative, Accusative, Dative and Genitive.
The Nominative is the noun which does the verb, such as 'I' in I eat Pizza.
In this sentance, Pizza would be in the accusative, because it is what the verb is doing the action to. This is the direct object in the sentance.
The Dative is usually when the noun is an indirect object in the sentance, as in the verb isn't done to it.
As for the Genitive, this shows possesion and is usually where we in english see the word 'of', or 's added onto nouns.
The accusative and dative are also used with preositions (in, on, under, around etc.)
There are three lists in German for what case a preposition takes:
"Um, ohne, durch, für, gegen, entlang, wider, bis" always take the accusative and "mit, nach, seit, von, zu, aus, außer, gegenüber" always take the dative.
All the other prepositions depend on whether there is movement involved or not. When there is movement it takes the accusative, if not, the dative.
Finally, some verbs, such as to help, take the dative.
If it helps to think about it, personal pronouns in both French and English are still declined to some degree.
For example, let's look at the sentence "Je le lui donne" ("I give it to him.") Obviously word order is extremely strict in French, but you could theoretically rearrange the words to something like "Le donne lui je" and still make some kind of sense out of it (kind of, sort of, maybe...) You still know that "je" must be the subject because it's in its subject form; it's "je" and not "me." Likewise, "le" must be a direct object, and "lui" must be an indirect object.
Maybe that's a dumb example. I'm not a native or even a fluent speaker of French, so I don't know how much sense that made. But basically, in a language with declination like Latin, all nouns and adjectives have inflected forms that reflect their syntactic function, just like pronouns in English and French.
I could go into a lot more detail, but I'd have to talk about Latin or Greek grammar specifically, because that's what I know...
(Note that a lot of them do stay the same though).
It might help me thinking of it that way though. Instead of it being with just pronouns, thinking of it being with nouns too. Maybe that will help me remember it and "get it". Thank you so much for that perspective
EDIT: oh, and of course, there is also "moi, toi, lui/elle, nous, vous, eux/elles."
Russian's rather hard to get a grips with, sometimes they just cut out pronouns altogether and use the verbs as the verb ending lets you know enough!
Yeah, that's what's called a "pro-drop" language. Latin, Greek, and Spanish are like that too.
Another way of thinking about cases: noun cases are used instead of certain prepositional constructions. So, for instance, French nouns have no possessive form. You can't say "the king's daughter;" you have to say "the daughter of the king" ("la fille du roi.") English has a possessive case, and it allows us to express the same thing in a slightly more concise way.
Basically, it's a trade off. A language in the Indo-European family will either have a noun case for something, or it will have a prepositional construction for it. A genitive case is used for possessive and partitive constructions instead of "of." A dative case is used for indirect objects instead of "to." An ablative case is used instead of "from." An instrumental case is used instead of "with." A locative case is used instead of "in." And so on.
Theoretically a language could have tons of different cases and no prepositions, but most will have only a couple unique, stand-alone cases and then one or more oblique cases that get paired with prepositions.
There are, of course, some cases that can't really be matched with prepositional phrases. The nominative is used for subjects and frequently also for indirect complements in copulative constructions. The accusative is used for direct objects. The vocative case is used for direct addresses. Most non-declined languages represent these through word order and punctuation.
But you get the idea. Noun cases are just different ways of expressing the same sorts of things that prepositions and word order are used to express in other languages.