From a story standpoint, it makes things much difficult for Marty without Doc around...and therefore, much more interesting for the game.
And I am glad to see that the writers have their bases covered for why Doc's disappearance happens. Personally, that was my own rationale for why Doc disappeared, if only because it makes the most sense. It also helps that BttF II is my favorite and I know practically every line in that movie. Doc's "It added a good 30 to 40 years to my life" line rang out in my head when that happened. No time travel, no rejuvenation clinic, no life extension. Poor Doc.
From a story standpoint, it makes things much difficult for Marty without Doc around...and therefore, much more interesting for the game.
And I am glad to see that the writers have their bases covered for why Doc's disappearance happens. Personally, that was my own rationale for why Doc disappeared, if only because it makes the most sense. It also helps that BttF II is my favorite and I know practically every line in that movie. Doc's "It added a good 30 to 40 years to my life" line rang out in my head when that happened. No time travel, no rejuvenation clinic, no life extension. Poor Doc.
Part 2 has been my favourite since 1991 (yes 20 years!) and I too know every line but until recently i thought the rejuvination clinic was to make doc look OLDER as he supposedly would in 2015. It wasn't until recently when i considered the concept that maybe Doc had been travelling through time for that long and needed the rejuvenation to reverse the aging.
And I am glad to see that the writers have their bases covered for why Doc's disappearance happens. Personally, that was my own rationale for why Doc disappeared, if only because it makes the most sense. It also helps that BttF II is my favorite and I know practically every line in that movie. Doc's "It added a good 30 to 40 years to my life" line rang out in my head when that happened. No time travel, no rejuvenation clinic, no life extension. Poor Doc.
When we hit these moments where we can't rewind back to episodes and moments already produced and make a change to accommodate the story we want to tell, we ask ourselves, "what's more important? Getting this story arc into the game or ditching it in favor of 'correct' science."
Logical fallacies < Story, i agree. BTTF breaks a lot of it's own rules all the time (pun intended), and it's still my favorite series of movies ever.
I guess I've always thought of the concept of like, when you enter an alternate timeline, things that you've brought with you disappear. Ex. 1985A, you've entered that alternate timeline, where the DeLorean doesn't exist, thus, the DeLorean should vanish. This new train of thought, this "displaced time traveller" angle makes the movie make a lot more sense. =D
Also, on the point of the DeLorean, upon arrive in the Citizen Brown '86, notice that Marty loses all control of the vehicle. Obviously the flying circuits are gone, and the time circuits begin to make the same malfunctioning noise they did in BttF2 when they displayed 1885, and the Flux Capacitor, most importantly, was no longer fluxing.
As far as the delorean, i guess it doesn't disappar because it's not living. And as far as we know, at no point in BTTF has the invention of the delorean been compromised. John DeLorean still helped found DMC and thus that car itself should still exist although admittedly the time circuits, flux capacitor, and hover conversions should not be on it at that point. Similar concept to the picture of Doc's tombstone in part III. When the tombstone breaks, it disappears from the photo but the photograph itself still remains as that photo would still exist.
I like this explanation, the only thing I keep scratching at is .....
ok so the Delorean (just the car) would still be in existince, but if Doc never builds a time machine, its paradox city for a whole bunch of reasons.
They never would've done any of the events in BttF 2 or 3 (and arguably 1) No lightning strike means no duplication of the Delorean. So its iffy that it would even be there. Aside from the events that would eventually lead Marty to even occupy said questionable existince Delorean in the first place.
I hope that if in Ep 3 the events of BttF 1 have still transpired in the 1986 First Citizen Brown universe, there is a snazzy explanation....that would be interesting.
Well being a time machine the DeLorean is probally always in a state of temporal flux/displacement (or at least when the flux capacitor is on before and a few secs after jumping), creating it's own spacetime, the "true" timeline, protecting the car and the stuff hardwired to it, regardless of what happens to the timeline.
If marty is the speakeasy arsonist, he can't dissappear until he has blown up the speakeasy and planted the dinomite in in the second speakeasy. Therefore creating an extreme paradox of erasing ep1 and 2. The other possibility is that FCB (first citizen brown) is the speakeasy arsonist and thus the Doc vanishing has to happen in order for speakeasy1 to be blown up and speakeasy2 to have dinomite in it.
Evidence:
In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him. In the game, Doc can't do anything and makes sure he doesnt do anything to alter the timeline. Marty on the other hand seems to be helped in getting Kid to leave the speakeasy. Doc only helped free Einstien off the roof (which is why he never dissappeared when returning to 1986 at the beginning).
Also, when Doc gets shot in the beginning of BttF1, there is no blood, implying that Marty's future self already warned Doc. So in order to maintain the timeline Marty has to end up warning Doc. The alternate 1985 is probably the true timeline as the old timeline is also required to put things on track.
Conclusion:
The DeLorean time machine still exists in order for certain events in the past to still take place and may have been instigated by marty of FCB.
If marty is the speakeasy arsonist, he can't dissappear until he has blown up the speakeasy and planted the dinomite in in the second speakeasy. Therefore creating an extreme paradox of erasing ep1 and 2. The other possibility is that FCB (first citizen brown) is the speakeasy arsonist and thus the Doc vanishing has to happen in order for speakeasy1 to be blown up and speakeasy2 to have dinomite in it.
Marty can't be the arsonist because the fire happened before Marty went back in time, neither can be FCB because he doesn't exist in this timeline. The timeline is not looped or fixed like in "Bill & Ted" or "Twelve Monkeys", but happens as it happens because the Future isn't written. The arsonist is either Edna or somebody else.
Evidence:
In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him.
No, we didn't see that in BTTF1: We jumped from the scene where Marty's telling the plan to George to the Courthouse, where Marty's preparing to go to the dance. They never comment about a stranger, but only about the weather, Doc thanking Marty for giving him a reason to be and about not wanting to hear about his own Future. We only see in BTTF2 that 1985 Doc went there carelessly and 1955 Doc asked him to get the 5/8 wrench. 1955 Doc could have gotten the wrench himself even if 1985 Doc wasn't there.
In the game, Doc can't do anything and makes sure he doesnt do anything to alter the timeline. Marty on the other hand seems to be helped in getting Kid to leave the speakeasy. Doc only helped free Einstien off the roof (which is why he never dissappeared when returning to 1986 at the beginning).
Also, when Doc gets shot in the beginning of BttF1, there is no blood, implying that Marty's future self already warned Doc. So in order to maintain the timeline Marty has to end up warning Doc. The alternate 1985 is probably the true timeline as the old timeline is also required to put things on track.
No, we only saw Doc's legs through the van, we didn't see Doc's full body. Probably because of movie rating.
It has been established by Gale that there is no "Future" or "Second" Marty in Twin-Pines-Mall Universe; so, when the Libyans shoot Doc, he's really dead.
Conclusion:
The DeLorean time machine still exists in order for certain events in the past to still take place and may have been instigated by marty of FCB.
I don't understand how that conclusion arised , but I believe Doc still invented time travel and worked on the DeLorean. Maybe the DeLorean won't work now because there are missing parts as consequence of of it being FCB's WIP -and we can also see burning sparks just before temporal displacement occured- and then only Doc dissapeared because he won't live to be almost 100.
Also, anyone who didn't notice, the missing gargoyles on the clock tower are NOT a continuity error! When you talk to Edna in the park at night, she's raising money to put some kind of statues on the courthouse.
I heard the line and was relieved , but still the ledge is too wide, or better said: the upper part of the ClockTower is too far back, unless that part is set closer to the front in the remodelling -though I don't know how-
Also, anyone who didn't notice, the missing gargoyles on the clock tower are NOT a continuity error! When you talk to Edna in the park at night, she's raising money to put some kind of statues on the courthouse.
They just fixed that... probably after comments or just as an easy fix to prevent comments.;)
Marty can't be the arsonist because the fire happened before Marty went back in time, neither can be FCB because he doesn't exist in this timeline. The timeline is not looped or fixed like in "Bill & Ted" or "Twelve Monkeys", but happens as it happens because the Future isn't written. The arsonist is either Edna or somebody else.
Then how do you explain that the reason for einstien's behaviour in ep 1 is revealed in ep 2 to be Marty trying to save Artie and avoid his past self? Einy "ferociousely attacked" Edna in ep 1 but it just suddenly cuts from the tree to Edna, without any indication that a stick may or may not have been thrown. You only know about the stick in ep2.
No, we didn't see that in BTTF1: We jumped from the scene where Marty's telling the plan to George to the Courthouse, where Marty's preparing to go to the dance. They never comment about a stranger, but only about the weather, Doc thanking Marty for giving him a reason to be and about not wanting to hear about his own Future. We only see in BTTF2 that 1985 Doc went there carelessly and 1955 Doc asked him to get the 5/8 wrench. 1955 Doc could have gotten the wrench himself even if 1985 Doc wasn't there.
Thanks...I thought I had that wrong.
Wait...I NEVER SAID NOR INDICATED that the BttFII marty and doc were seen in BttFI or there actions reffered to in BttFI. I was talking about within BttFII ONLY.
BttF was originally only 1 movie. Box office sales turned it into a trilogy. The VERY end of BttFI was just in case they made a sequal.
No, we only saw Doc's legs through the van, we didn't see Doc's full body. Probably because of movie rating.
100.
True...I just thought they might have shown a puddle or some indication that he was really dead and not just knocked out from the force of the bullets on the bullet proof vest..
It has been established by Gale that there is no "Future" or "Second" Marty in Twin-Pines-Mall Universe; so, when the Libyans shoot Doc, he's really dead.
I never really meant that point, I know it is not true. I was just thinking of alternate possibilities.
Mainly...
At the end of BttFI, we see Marty arrive just as past Marty leaves for 1985. How do you know that didn't happen at the beginning of the movie as well? I know that's not the case, it is just interesting thinking.
I don't understand how that conclusion arised , but I believe Doc still invented time travel and worked on the DeLorean. Maybe the DeLorean won't work now because there are missing parts as consequence of of it being FCB's WIP -and we can also see burning sparks just before temporal displacement occured- and then only Doc dissapeared because he won't live to be almost 100.
I understand that and never said otherwise.
What I meant was the DeLorean still has to be invented (which it has/will) in order for Marty to correct the timeline and for the DeLorean to still exist (he always seems to be the one who puts the timeline on track). So Doc (or FCB in this case) needs to invent the DeLorean, which he is probably hiding from Edna.
Thanks...I thought I had that wrong.
Wait...I NEVER SAID NOR INDICATED that the BttFII marty and doc were seen in BttFI or there actions reffered to in BttFI. I was talking about within BttFII ONLY.
BttF was originally only 1 movie. Box office sales turned it into a trilogy. The VERY end of BttFI was just in case they made a sequal.
True...I just thought they might have shown a puddle or some indication that he was really dead and not just knocked out from the force of the bullets on the bullet proof vest..
I never really meant that point, I know it is not true. I was just thinking of alternate possibilities.
Mainly...
At the end of BttFI, we see Marty arrive just as past Marty leaves for 1985. How do you know that didn't happen at the beginning of the movie as well? I know that's not the case, it is just interesting thinking.
I understand that and never said otherwise.
What I meant was the DeLorean still has to be invented (which it has/will) in order for Marty to correct the timeline and for the DeLorean to still exist (he always seems to be the one who puts the timeline on track). So Doc (or FCB in this case) needs to invent the DeLorean, which he is probably hiding from Edna.
No according to movie rules, the events of part II haven't happened yet in part 1. I've watched part II more than any other movie in existance and just watched part I again last week fairly closely to see differences from the scenes of part II; marty does walk violently through the doors from the stage (part where he eventually hits his other self) but you can clearly see through the windows in the part I clip and there is nobody else standing where marty and biff are in the sequel. Also they do cut away at the part of doc running in the street. But anyhow according to bttf theres no time travel written in the timelines hence why we see pictures, newspapers, and such changing when events change.
I thought about the blood thing you brought up recently. And yes it was likely avoided due to MPAA reasons as i can't believe someone being shot that many times would not bleed. But yeah according to the rules, at the start of the film, doc is dead.
the fact that twin pines mall changes to lone pines mall is a good indication of what you brought up.
One thing I like about BttFI is that it shows you the very beginning of the time loop. I prefer part 1 & 3 to part2 because part 2 is tho most common and typical timetravel plot. Villian alters time and heroes have to stop villian.
Also, in the games, they can use the predestination paradox (created when marty arrives back in 1985) because they can think an episode ahead. they didn't have that luxury in the movies because they never intended to make more than 1 movie. The ending of part 1 was just in case (google it). This ultimately makes the movies very unique as timetravel plots will employ either the predestination paradox or hero stopping villian from altering time.
Predestination Paradox: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur in the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened.
Quote from wikipedia:
In the film Back to the Future Marty plays Chuck Berry's future song Johnny B. Goode, which then is relayed to Chuck Berry, resulting in the song having no original creator. Also, after Marty leaves, his future mother Lorraine states that she likes the name Marty, making Marty's name a possible instance of the bootstrap paradox.
Then how do you explain that the reason for einstien's behaviour in ep 1 is revealed in ep 2 to be Marty trying to save Artie and avoid his past self? Einy "ferociousely attacked" Edna in ep 1 but it just suddenly cuts from the tree to Edna, without any indication that a stick may or may not have been thrown. You only know about the stick in ep2.
You're thinking too 4th-dimensionally!
In Ep. 1 Einstein attacks Edna twice: Before getting in the DeLorean with Edna's shoe (first) and when he returns with Marty (second).
In Ep. 2, just once: When Marty goes back to 4:45 p.m. and throws the stick to Edna (third time).
Even as Marty traveled back in time, this is the third time (from Edna's POV) that Einstein attacks her. There's no predestination paradox here.
The only explanation still needed is why did Einstein attack Edna the first time...
Thanks...I thought I had that wrong.
Wait...I NEVER SAID NOR INDICATED that the BttFII marty and doc were seen in BttFI or there actions reffered to in BttFI. I was talking about within BttFII ONLY.
BttF was originally only 1 movie. Box office sales turned it into a trilogy. The VERY end of BttFI was just in case they made a sequal.
You said In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him., so you said that 1955 Doc talked about a "stranger" in BTTF1, so where am I getting it wrong?
True...I just thought they might have shown a puddle or some indication that he was really dead and not just knocked out from the force of the bullets on the bullet proof vest..
*snip*
Mainly...
At the end of BttFI, we see Marty arrive just as past Marty leaves for 1985. How do you know that didn't happen at the beginning of the movie as well? I know that's not the case, it is just interesting thinking.
That's the power of Love Suggestion: He was shot point-blank, multiple times, with an AK-47. He's certainly dead in Twin-Pines-Mall universe. There was the possibility of Doc being alive with the Marty-II theory, but predestination paradoxes are primordialy avoided in BTTF (the "Chuck Berry" one doesn't count as a paradox, because Chuck Berry did write the song in the original timeline, he only heard the sound of the song through the phone).
We don't know the reason why Lorraine named his third son "Marty", but probably she had a reason before Marty went back in time.
I don't understand why Doc got erased straightaway?
I get that Doc never would have gone to that rejuvenation clinic, therefore he wouldn't have lived as long as he did. In the case of old Biff in BTTF 2 (if you watched the deleted scene), he didn't erase straight away. He appears wounded for about a minute whilst time is catching up. Why was Doc's disappearance instantaneous?
The whole thing with Einstein in episode one "responding" to Ep 2 Marty throwing the stick, is a great example someone pointed out. I think that going by these rules, and knowing that ultimately if it makes a good story they'll do it, makes it even more likely the Marty-speakeasy thing is going to be true.
If you take the whole Doc dissapearing but not the Delorean discussion further, ultimately there are SO many reasons you can come up with for potential paradox's. The biggest problem I have here is that its just so obvious. In BttF 2 there is a similar feeling but its not nearly as pronounced and you can come up with potential reasons why it might work. (The moment 2015 biff hands the almanac to 1955 biff-boom-paradox! as well as others...)
I still have this small feeling that the arsonist is going to be someone we haven't met yet in the game. I go back and forth about who it might be.... last night I was pondering who Edna will eventually make a baby Mr. Strickland with. Maybe thats a clue...
last night I was pondering who Edna will eventually make a baby Mr. Strickland with. Maybe thats a clue...
Edna won't make a baby Mr Strickland. He's her little brother. Her PARENTS will make him... should have ALREADY made him by 1931, if his age in the novelisations is correct. xD
Edna won't make a baby Mr Strickland. He's her little brother. Her PARENTS will make him... should have ALREADY made him by 1931, if his age in the novelisations is correct. xD
I think zounds! means another Mr. Strickland, not THE Mr. Strickland (Gerald).
The whole thing with Einstein in episode one "responding" to Ep 2 Marty throwing the stick, is a great example someone pointed out. I think that going by these rules, and knowing that ultimately if it makes a good story they'll do it, makes it even more likely the Marty-speakeasy thing is going to be true.
Marty couldn't have burnt down the speakeasy, neither could Doc.
That deals with predestination paradoxes...which BTTF has distinguished itself to steer clear of.
Nah, it's too easy to guess. We have 3 more episodes, so there could be any number of new or old characters who could have done it.
Here's something interesting: what if we aren't following the original duo? Perhaps they're from a further iteration of the timeline than we think? Perhaps another Marty and Doc already had their adventures in 1931, and we're following the second iterations? What if Marty/Doc DID start the fire, just not these ones? It's sort of like if instead of seeing the movie from the perspective of the Marty we did, we saw it from Lone Pine Marty's POV. He'd be on the same adventures, but changes to the timeline have already been made.
This would explain things, like how Doc is acting. Perhaps he was warned by a future Marty or Doc of some future events, but can't tell Marty so he won't mess things up by doing things differently. Maybe he only came to 1931 in the first place because he was told he was supposed to?
*snip*
Here's something interesting: what if we aren't following the original duo? Perhaps they're from a further iteration of the timeline than we think? Perhaps another Marty and Doc already had their adventures in 1931, and we're following the second iterations? What if Marty/Doc DID start the fire, just not these ones? It's sort of like if instead of seeing the movie from the perspective of the Marty we did, we saw it from Lone Pine Marty's POV. He'd be on the same adventures, but changes to the timeline have already been made.
*snip*
That would only work if, for example, we saw Past-Marty (from his perspective) race his DeLorean against Future-Marty's DeLorean the first time he went to 4:45 p.m.; instead, we followed the same Marty and, the first time he went back, we didn't see that future DeLorean: So, we're always following Present-Marty. From Doc's point of view, he saw the first DeLorean dissapear and then the other DeLorean appeared as Ripple Effect, as if it had been there the whole time.
Of course, if we weren't following Present-Marty, the predestination-paradox theory would work.
You said In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him., so you said that 1955 Doc talked about a "stranger" in BTTF1, so where am I getting it wrong?
I thought he mentioned it or hinted at it in BttFII.
the "Chuck Berry" one doesn't count as a paradox, because Chuck Berry did write the song in the original timeline, he only heard the sound of the song through the phone).
We don't know the reason why Lorraine named his third son "Marty", but probably she had a reason before Marty went back in time.
That was something to think about. It wasn't actually for the thread. sorry for the confusion.
Also, Marty is named after a family member.
Edna won't make a baby Mr Strickland. He's her little brother. Her PARENTS will make him... should have ALREADY made him by 1931, if his age in the novelisations is correct. xD
I'd say by the looks of him in 1955, he looks much older than 24 years old so it's safe to say he's been born in 1931.
That was something to think about. It wasn't actually for the thread. sorry for the confusion.
Also, Marty is named after a family member.
Chuck doesn't hear the entire song marty plays (comes in halfway through and never finishes the song). Similar to the martin mcfly reference, Lorraine obviously liked the name, marty just told them sooner.
Or look at it this way; back to the future part II is my favourite movie of all time and I saw it first in 1991. If someone went back in time to 1989 and showed it to me in theatres, it would still be my favourite movie most likely I just would have been introduced to it sooner.
Besides, in the three cases of "predestination paradoxes", there's already an idea behind it: every circumstance happened just as in the original timeline and the only thing Marty did was put it on the right track:
- Goldie already wanted to go to night school and be somebody before Marty went into Lou's Cafe.
- Chuck Berry was already looking for a new sound before Marvin called him.
- Marty already had a relative named Martin and another named Seamus before going to 1955 and meeting his parents.
None of the events depended on Marty going back in time.
Even in the game, Emmett already had the idea for the drill and Marty just helped in actually making it real.
As far as plot holes go there was one in the first movie that always bugged me. Marty meets Goldie Wilson and gives him the idea to become mayor, but he already WAS mayor in the 1985 Marty came from, but how can that be if Marty hadn't gone back to give him the idea yet? And, if he would've done it anyway, then what was the point of that scene being in the movie.
As far as people speculating on the possible meaning of the dream in Ep 1, my idea is probably to epic for anyone to attempt. First of all the reason why both of the 1985's in bttf 2 had to exist was because the existence of 1985a depended on the existence of the time machine and the existence of an alternate time line. However, what if Doc and Marty had inadvertently created alternate time lines every time they used the time machine (which would explain the lack of paradoxes) , but what if all those alternate time lines had a negative effect on the universe? In bttf 2 Doc talks about time lines merging, but what would this appear like to the time travelers who are aware of whats happening?
Like I said, probably to huge of scale for a video game, but who knows, I still have three eps to be surprised by.
How does the Delorean even exist? Wasn't it destroyed in Part 3? Am I missing something?
Short answer: Talk to Doc while he's in jail in Episode 1.
Long answer: According to Doc, the gigawatt overload that shorted out the time circuits, destroyed the flying circuits, and activated the flux capacitor which sent the DeLorean back to 1885 also sent a duplicate of the DeLorean 70 years forward to the year 2025. This was probably caused by the fact that, unlike the lightning strike that sent the DeLorean to 1985 at the end of BttF, the lightning wasn't channeled through cable and a pole and hook which would have absorbed some of the power going to the flux capacitor. The DeLorean took the full charge, and since 1.21 gigawatts is all that's needed, it's a safe bet with BttF physics that the charge was more than enough to over-"flux" the time machine. On a trip to 2025, Doc learned of the existence of the duplicate time machine, probably traveled back to when it arrived, and prevented it from falling into the hands of Griff Tannen. It is then presumed that Doc repaired the time circuits and had the flying circuits replaced while in 2025 and then began using it as well as the Jules Verne time train. It's currently unknown if the duplication affected Doc as well. Logically speaking, it should have, but logic doesn't always apply to time travel.
As far as people speculating on the possible meaning of the dream in Ep 1, my idea is probably to epic for anyone to attempt. First of all the reason why both of the 1985's in bttf 2 had to exist was because the existence of 1985a depended on the existence of the time machine and the existence of an alternate time line. However, what if Doc and Marty had inadvertently created alternate time lines every time they used the time machine (which would explain the lack of paradoxes) , but what if all those alternate time lines had a negative effect on the universe? In bttf 2 Doc talks about time lines merging, but what would this appear like to the time travelers who are aware of whats happening?
Like I said, probably to huge of scale for a video game, but who knows, I still have three eps to be surprised by.
Sounds similar to my heretic idea that FCB or Marty is the speakeasy arsonist.
I think the dream was a premonition. Perhaps it was the memory changing and thus the timeline slowly changing around Marty. Marty remains unaffected because he still needs to go to 1931 to mess up the timeline. It is as if the time-space continueum is communicating to Marty.
Maby it is indicating that it was actually Doc's fault that he faded out.
When Marty finds Doc in jail, he says something like "why don't I just travel back to before they arrested you, and stop you being near the speakeasy". Doc replies, "that would mean the events that led to you finding out about me being here would never happen, catastrophic end of world etc."
BUT surely saving Doc from jail *by any means* would produce the same result, as the paper would still never have run the story about Carl Sagan getting killed, so Marty would never be able to find out where in time Doc was?
I wondered about that too, i also remember time travel in the bttf movies doesn't work like that, all that happens is an alternate time line is created, so no matter what marty does to save doc will actually just create a new time line where marty doesn't go back in time or at least to the correct date, unless the newspaper simply said carl sagan escaped from jail, which would make sense, and then marty would maybe realize he is the one who freed him.
So what does this mean for Clara? Since Doc disappeared instantly, did his kids and wife also disappear? If Doc grew up to become first citizen brown than he would not have invented the time machine...yadda yadda....saved Clara from killing herself.
I wondered about that too, i also remember time travel in the bttf movies doesn't work like that, all that happens is an alternate time line is created, so no matter what marty does to save doc will actually just create a new time line where marty doesn't go back in time or at least to the correct date, unless the newspaper simply said carl sagan escaped from jail, which would make sense, and then marty would maybe realize he is the one who freed him.
What is being said is that Doc needs to be in jail so he doesn't return to the DeLorean so the DeLorean goes to 1986 so Marty goes back to 1931.
@BritishChap; Yes, that means that Clara, Jules, Verne, and the time train no longer exist, nor will they unless Marty not only fixes Doc becoming a grand scientist but makes sure that time will flow along the proper course.
Continuity error(?): When you finally get Officer Parker to tell you his problems, he says that it all started on June 14, 1931 when a strange car appeared and ran him off the road while he was chasing down Kid's guys. Marty arrived at 4:00 AM on June 13, 1931. However, I am willing to let it pass because it had been a couple of months since the incident, and he was drunk off his @** while relating the story. Just thought I should bring it up.
As far as plot holes go there was one in the first movie that always bugged me. Marty meets Goldie Wilson and gives him the idea to become mayor, but he already WAS mayor in the 1985 Marty came from, but how can that be if Marty hadn't gone back to give him the idea yet? And, if he would've done it anyway, then what was the point of that scene being in the movie.
There's nothing wrong with that scene. At some point in Goldie Wilson's original timeline, something or someone gave him the inspiration to run for mayor. When Marty went back in time, he ended up being the person to do it. But that doesn't mean it was always him.
Which brings up another point unrelated to the above. We never know how this story will end, but the arsonist could wind up being Marty or Doc. If it had been Marty or Doc all along, that would probably be a paradox, but the story could develop in such a manner that Marty will go back to an earlier point in 1931 and somehow cause the arsonist to never burn down/blow up the original speakeasy. In order to correct the timeline, Marty would then presumably have to become the arsonist. As far as history is concerned, the identity of the arsonist is unimportant, so Marty can fill in if need be.
Comments
And I am glad to see that the writers have their bases covered for why Doc's disappearance happens. Personally, that was my own rationale for why Doc disappeared, if only because it makes the most sense. It also helps that BttF II is my favorite and I know practically every line in that movie. Doc's "It added a good 30 to 40 years to my life" line rang out in my head when that happened. No time travel, no rejuvenation clinic, no life extension. Poor Doc.
Part 2 has been my favourite since 1991 (yes 20 years!) and I too know every line but until recently i thought the rejuvination clinic was to make doc look OLDER as he supposedly would in 2015. It wasn't until recently when i considered the concept that maybe Doc had been travelling through time for that long and needed the rejuvenation to reverse the aging.
I didn't think of it that way.
Logical fallacies < Story, i agree. BTTF breaks a lot of it's own rules all the time (pun intended), and it's still my favorite series of movies ever.
I guess I've always thought of the concept of like, when you enter an alternate timeline, things that you've brought with you disappear. Ex. 1985A, you've entered that alternate timeline, where the DeLorean doesn't exist, thus, the DeLorean should vanish. This new train of thought, this "displaced time traveller" angle makes the movie make a lot more sense. =D
I like this explanation, the only thing I keep scratching at is .....
ok so the Delorean (just the car) would still be in existince, but if Doc never builds a time machine, its paradox city for a whole bunch of reasons.
They never would've done any of the events in BttF 2 or 3 (and arguably 1) No lightning strike means no duplication of the Delorean. So its iffy that it would even be there. Aside from the events that would eventually lead Marty to even occupy said questionable existince Delorean in the first place.
I hope that if in Ep 3 the events of BttF 1 have still transpired in the 1986 First Citizen Brown universe, there is a snazzy explanation....that would be interesting.
are we suppose to believe that biff now remembered marty from 1955?
ugh.... of course thats right....
ive been watching too much ghostbusters lately, i think my bttf skills are fading....
A time shield so to speak. (star trek) lol
Evidence:
In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him. In the game, Doc can't do anything and makes sure he doesnt do anything to alter the timeline. Marty on the other hand seems to be helped in getting Kid to leave the speakeasy. Doc only helped free Einstien off the roof (which is why he never dissappeared when returning to 1986 at the beginning).
Also, when Doc gets shot in the beginning of BttF1, there is no blood, implying that Marty's future self already warned Doc. So in order to maintain the timeline Marty has to end up warning Doc. The alternate 1985 is probably the true timeline as the old timeline is also required to put things on track.
Conclusion:
The DeLorean time machine still exists in order for certain events in the past to still take place and may have been instigated by marty of FCB.
Marty can't be the arsonist because the fire happened before Marty went back in time, neither can be FCB because he doesn't exist in this timeline. The timeline is not looped or fixed like in "Bill & Ted" or "Twelve Monkeys", but happens as it happens because the Future isn't written. The arsonist is either Edna or somebody else.
No, we didn't see that in BTTF1: We jumped from the scene where Marty's telling the plan to George to the Courthouse, where Marty's preparing to go to the dance. They never comment about a stranger, but only about the weather, Doc thanking Marty for giving him a reason to be and about not wanting to hear about his own Future. We only see in BTTF2 that 1985 Doc went there carelessly and 1955 Doc asked him to get the 5/8 wrench. 1955 Doc could have gotten the wrench himself even if 1985 Doc wasn't there.
I don't understand your point here
No, we only saw Doc's legs through the van, we didn't see Doc's full body. Probably because of movie rating.
It has been established by Gale that there is no "Future" or "Second" Marty in Twin-Pines-Mall Universe; so, when the Libyans shoot Doc, he's really dead.
I don't understand how that conclusion arised
Then how do you explain that the reason for einstien's behaviour in ep 1 is revealed in ep 2 to be Marty trying to save Artie and avoid his past self? Einy "ferociousely attacked" Edna in ep 1 but it just suddenly cuts from the tree to Edna, without any indication that a stick may or may not have been thrown. You only know about the stick in ep2.
Thanks...I thought I had that wrong.
Wait...I NEVER SAID NOR INDICATED that the BttFII marty and doc were seen in BttFI or there actions reffered to in BttFI. I was talking about within BttFII ONLY.
BttF was originally only 1 movie. Box office sales turned it into a trilogy. The VERY end of BttFI was just in case they made a sequal.
No real point. Doc didn't really have much opportinity to mess-up his own timeline...that was Marty's fault.
True...I just thought they might have shown a puddle or some indication that he was really dead and not just knocked out from the force of the bullets on the bullet proof vest..
I never really meant that point, I know it is not true. I was just thinking of alternate possibilities.
Mainly...
At the end of BttFI, we see Marty arrive just as past Marty leaves for 1985. How do you know that didn't happen at the beginning of the movie as well? I know that's not the case, it is just interesting thinking.
I understand that and never said otherwise.
What I meant was the DeLorean still has to be invented (which it has/will) in order for Marty to correct the timeline and for the DeLorean to still exist (he always seems to be the one who puts the timeline on track). So Doc (or FCB in this case) needs to invent the DeLorean, which he is probably hiding from Edna.
No according to movie rules, the events of part II haven't happened yet in part 1. I've watched part II more than any other movie in existance and just watched part I again last week fairly closely to see differences from the scenes of part II; marty does walk violently through the doors from the stage (part where he eventually hits his other self) but you can clearly see through the windows in the part I clip and there is nobody else standing where marty and biff are in the sequel. Also they do cut away at the part of doc running in the street. But anyhow according to bttf theres no time travel written in the timelines hence why we see pictures, newspapers, and such changing when events change.
I thought about the blood thing you brought up recently. And yes it was likely avoided due to MPAA reasons as i can't believe someone being shot that many times would not bleed. But yeah according to the rules, at the start of the film, doc is dead.
the fact that twin pines mall changes to lone pines mall is a good indication of what you brought up.
Also, in the games, they can use the predestination paradox (created when marty arrives back in 1985) because they can think an episode ahead. they didn't have that luxury in the movies because they never intended to make more than 1 movie. The ending of part 1 was just in case (google it). This ultimately makes the movies very unique as timetravel plots will employ either the predestination paradox or hero stopping villian from altering time.
Predestination Paradox: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur in the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened.
In the film Back to the Future Marty plays Chuck Berry's future song Johnny B. Goode, which then is relayed to Chuck Berry, resulting in the song having no original creator. Also, after Marty leaves, his future mother Lorraine states that she likes the name Marty, making Marty's name a possible instance of the bootstrap paradox.
Makes you think
You're thinking too 4th-dimensionally!
In Ep. 1 Einstein attacks Edna twice: Before getting in the DeLorean with Edna's shoe (first) and when he returns with Marty (second).
In Ep. 2, just once: When Marty goes back to 4:45 p.m. and throws the stick to Edna (third time).
Even as Marty traveled back in time, this is the third time (from Edna's POV) that Einstein attacks her. There's no predestination paradox here.
The only explanation still needed is why did Einstein attack Edna the first time...
You said In BttFI, past Doc comments on a stranger helping him help marty (I think he was fixing the DeLorean). Only in BttFII do we learn that it was future Doc that helped him., so you said that 1955 Doc talked about a "stranger" in BTTF1, so where am I getting it wrong?
That's the power of Love Suggestion: He was shot point-blank, multiple times, with an AK-47. He's certainly dead in Twin-Pines-Mall universe. There was the possibility of Doc being alive with the Marty-II theory, but predestination paradoxes are primordialy avoided in BTTF (the "Chuck Berry" one doesn't count as a paradox, because Chuck Berry did write the song in the original timeline, he only heard the sound of the song through the phone).
We don't know the reason why Lorraine named his third son "Marty", but probably she had a reason before Marty went back in time.
I get that Doc never would have gone to that rejuvenation clinic, therefore he wouldn't have lived as long as he did. In the case of old Biff in BTTF 2 (if you watched the deleted scene), he didn't erase straight away. He appears wounded for about a minute whilst time is catching up. Why was Doc's disappearance instantaneous?
Named after his Great Great Great-Uncle?
If you take the whole Doc dissapearing but not the Delorean discussion further, ultimately there are SO many reasons you can come up with for potential paradox's. The biggest problem I have here is that its just so obvious. In BttF 2 there is a similar feeling but its not nearly as pronounced and you can come up with potential reasons why it might work. (The moment 2015 biff hands the almanac to 1955 biff-boom-paradox! as well as others...)
I still have this small feeling that the arsonist is going to be someone we haven't met yet in the game. I go back and forth about who it might be.... last night I was pondering who Edna will eventually make a baby Mr. Strickland with. Maybe thats a clue...
Edna won't make a baby Mr Strickland. He's her little brother. Her PARENTS will make him... should have ALREADY made him by 1931, if his age in the novelisations is correct. xD
I think zounds! means another Mr. Strickland, not THE Mr. Strickland (Gerald).
Marty couldn't have burnt down the speakeasy, neither could Doc.
That deals with predestination paradoxes...which BTTF has distinguished itself to steer clear of.
Nooo, I think Edna is the one to have done it.
Here's something interesting: what if we aren't following the original duo? Perhaps they're from a further iteration of the timeline than we think? Perhaps another Marty and Doc already had their adventures in 1931, and we're following the second iterations? What if Marty/Doc DID start the fire, just not these ones? It's sort of like if instead of seeing the movie from the perspective of the Marty we did, we saw it from Lone Pine Marty's POV. He'd be on the same adventures, but changes to the timeline have already been made.
This would explain things, like how Doc is acting. Perhaps he was warned by a future Marty or Doc of some future events, but can't tell Marty so he won't mess things up by doing things differently. Maybe he only came to 1931 in the first place because he was told he was supposed to?
That would only work if, for example, we saw Past-Marty (from his perspective) race his DeLorean against Future-Marty's DeLorean the first time he went to 4:45 p.m.; instead, we followed the same Marty and, the first time he went back, we didn't see that future DeLorean: So, we're always following Present-Marty. From Doc's point of view, he saw the first DeLorean dissapear and then the other DeLorean appeared as Ripple Effect, as if it had been there the whole time.
Of course, if we weren't following Present-Marty, the predestination-paradox theory would work.
How do you know?
Just messing with you now.
Either of us could be right.
Play ep 1 again. past Marty and einstien make the same actions and comments as in ep2.
I thought he mentioned it or hinted at it in BttFII.
That was something to think about. It wasn't actually for the thread. sorry for the confusion.
Also, Marty is named after a family member.
I'd say by the looks of him in 1955, he looks much older than 24 years old so it's safe to say he's been born in 1931.
Chuck doesn't hear the entire song marty plays (comes in halfway through and never finishes the song). Similar to the martin mcfly reference, Lorraine obviously liked the name, marty just told them sooner.
Or look at it this way; back to the future part II is my favourite movie of all time and I saw it first in 1991. If someone went back in time to 1989 and showed it to me in theatres, it would still be my favourite movie most likely I just would have been introduced to it sooner.
- Goldie already wanted to go to night school and be somebody before Marty went into Lou's Cafe.
- Chuck Berry was already looking for a new sound before Marvin called him.
- Marty already had a relative named Martin and another named Seamus before going to 1955 and meeting his parents.
None of the events depended on Marty going back in time.
Even in the game, Emmett already had the idea for the drill and Marty just helped in actually making it real.
As far as people speculating on the possible meaning of the dream in Ep 1, my idea is probably to epic for anyone to attempt. First of all the reason why both of the 1985's in bttf 2 had to exist was because the existence of 1985a depended on the existence of the time machine and the existence of an alternate time line. However, what if Doc and Marty had inadvertently created alternate time lines every time they used the time machine (which would explain the lack of paradoxes) , but what if all those alternate time lines had a negative effect on the universe? In bttf 2 Doc talks about time lines merging, but what would this appear like to the time travelers who are aware of whats happening?
Like I said, probably to huge of scale for a video game, but who knows, I still have three eps to be surprised by.
To show how the citizens of a town change over thirty years, and to be funny.
Short answer: Talk to Doc while he's in jail in Episode 1.
Long answer: According to Doc, the gigawatt overload that shorted out the time circuits, destroyed the flying circuits, and activated the flux capacitor which sent the DeLorean back to 1885 also sent a duplicate of the DeLorean 70 years forward to the year 2025. This was probably caused by the fact that, unlike the lightning strike that sent the DeLorean to 1985 at the end of BttF, the lightning wasn't channeled through cable and a pole and hook which would have absorbed some of the power going to the flux capacitor. The DeLorean took the full charge, and since 1.21 gigawatts is all that's needed, it's a safe bet with BttF physics that the charge was more than enough to over-"flux" the time machine. On a trip to 2025, Doc learned of the existence of the duplicate time machine, probably traveled back to when it arrived, and prevented it from falling into the hands of Griff Tannen. It is then presumed that Doc repaired the time circuits and had the flying circuits replaced while in 2025 and then began using it as well as the Jules Verne time train. It's currently unknown if the duplication affected Doc as well. Logically speaking, it should have, but logic doesn't always apply to time travel.
Sounds similar to my heretic idea that FCB or Marty is the speakeasy arsonist.
I think the dream was a premonition. Perhaps it was the memory changing and thus the timeline slowly changing around Marty. Marty remains unaffected because he still needs to go to 1931 to mess up the timeline. It is as if the time-space continueum is communicating to Marty.
Maby it is indicating that it was actually Doc's fault that he faded out.
I wondered about that too, i also remember time travel in the bttf movies doesn't work like that, all that happens is an alternate time line is created, so no matter what marty does to save doc will actually just create a new time line where marty doesn't go back in time or at least to the correct date, unless the newspaper simply said carl sagan escaped from jail, which would make sense, and then marty would maybe realize he is the one who freed him.
What is being said is that Doc needs to be in jail so he doesn't return to the DeLorean so the DeLorean goes to 1986 so Marty goes back to 1931.
@BritishChap; Yes, that means that Clara, Jules, Verne, and the time train no longer exist, nor will they unless Marty not only fixes Doc becoming a grand scientist but makes sure that time will flow along the proper course.
Continuity error(?): When you finally get Officer Parker to tell you his problems, he says that it all started on June 14, 1931 when a strange car appeared and ran him off the road while he was chasing down Kid's guys. Marty arrived at 4:00 AM on June 13, 1931. However, I am willing to let it pass because it had been a couple of months since the incident, and he was drunk off his @** while relating the story. Just thought I should bring it up.
There's nothing wrong with that scene. At some point in Goldie Wilson's original timeline, something or someone gave him the inspiration to run for mayor. When Marty went back in time, he ended up being the person to do it. But that doesn't mean it was always him.
Which brings up another point unrelated to the above. We never know how this story will end, but the arsonist could wind up being Marty or Doc. If it had been Marty or Doc all along, that would probably be a paradox, but the story could develop in such a manner that Marty will go back to an earlier point in 1931 and somehow cause the arsonist to never burn down/blow up the original speakeasy. In order to correct the timeline, Marty would then presumably have to become the arsonist. As far as history is concerned, the identity of the arsonist is unimportant, so Marty can fill in if need be.