Please, no more critical plot points in incidental dialogue.

sVybDy

From reading this forum, I've come to understand that I missed some really important plot points by not asking the right questions at certain areas of the game. I assumed the point of an adventure game was to select the responses which would drive the game forward, not just click on them all to make sure you can actually figure out what's going on in the first place.

I honestly thought at the end of completing the first episode that TTG left in a lot of plot holes, but now I guess I need to play the game a second time and click on EVERYTHING to be sure.

Tarand

Oh yes, you should follow every choice to it's conclusion, else you miss not only the thread of thought and plot, but the humor as well.

Telltalegames are teh funny. ;-)

Cyphox

thats how adventure games work, you have to collect as much information as you can.

Davies

Yep, sorry but this is the way of adventure gaming. If you really don't like to listen to all the available dialogue then I'm afraid the genre may not be best suited to you (although there are a few good adventure games with little to no dialogue).

Bloody Eugene

The informations you want are not vital to the gameplay. It would be very boring to listen all the explainations if you're interested because you're not a huge fan of the movies. So they are there, but only if you ask and want to listen!

sVybDy

I still have to disagree. In many ways this game has been likened to an "interactive movie," and considering that it is picking up where BTTF III left off, major plot points need to be handled in cutscenes, because the plot is important to every single person who is going to play this game. If you can miss them by selecting the "correct" option in order to move through the game, what's even the point of playing?

The game has been criticized by others for being "too easy," with some even calling for the possibility that the player can cause a rift in the space-time continuum, equaling an automatic game over. If it were possible to make a "wrong choice," then it would be extremely inadvisable to click on everything just to see what happens.

Basically what we have here is a game that's not really a game. You're not in control, and you're just mindlessly clicking everything to make sure you don't miss anything important. There's no reason to even be in control, and they might as well have just made an animated movie if they didn't want to polish the game elements into an actual game.

Jennifer

That's just the way adventure games are. The story of the current game of the series comes in cutscenes and standard dialog options. But, a lot of the extra stuff like dialog tying the game into previous entries in the series come in dialog choices (and sometimes, like in The Secret of Monkey Island and Monkey Island 2, through optional in-game reading material).

In The Curse of Monkey Island, for example, you don't find out how the game ties into the last game except for through optional dialog with LeChuck at the end. Not choosing those dialog options won't make the game any less exciting for newcomers, but series fans can get more out of the game by talking and looking at as much as they can in the game.

That is exactly what makes an adventure game an adventure game. The adventure game genre is all about interacting with your environment. You don't sit through hours of cutscenes to hear every little detail. You have to explore and interact with the game world.

Gman5852

Yeah Im sorry but most adventure games work that way. If you skip dialoge in sam and max, you miss out on what

both charlie ho-tep and the narrator's

evil schemes are.

Hassat Hunter

sVybDy wrote: »

In many ways this game has been likened to an "interactive movie,"

And... they are wrong. Don't assume stuff based on wrong accusations.

because the plot is important to every single person who is going to play this game.

Yet you decide to skip it. Weird, ain't it?

If you can miss them by selecting the "correct" option in order to move through the game, what's even the point of playing?

What's the point if all dialogue is automatically said in a cutscene like you wish? THEN it would really be an interactive movie instead of a game, wouldn't you say?

If it were possible to make a "wrong choice," then it would be extremely inadvisable to click on everything just to see what happens.

It isn't. Why are you making assumptions based on 'what could be' instead of 'what is'? Seriously...

you're just mindlessly clicking everything to make sure you don't miss anything important.

And yet... you missed important things. Food for thought.

Davies

Seriously. Getting. Tired. Of. These. Threads.

They. Are. Always. Started. By. Someone. With. Less. Than. Ten. Posts. Total.

Muuuussst maintain manners. Be nice. Remember this is bound to happen. With Telltale branching out to the mainstream. Can't controllllll.. ARGHHH

*smacks self in face*

Much better....

Yeah, this is just how adventures work. All the best

Kyronea

Since when does post count somehow determine the legitimacy or lack thereof of a poster's points and/or determine their intelligence? Why should this arbitrary number determine whether you listen to someone rather than actual critical thought about what they say?

Giant Tope

Kyronea, it's because those with a higher post tend to have been around longer and therefore tend to have a greater interest and knowledge in the forum topics that pop up. I don't think it should be something that is judged though and I agree. The ironic thing is that I haven't seen Davies around until fairly recently, and they seem to be complaining a lot about the new folk.

sVybDy

You guys are being silly with your "this is how adventure games are" nonsense. I'm an experienced gamer with plenty of adventure game experience, I've played a bunch of Telltale stuff, and plenty of other stuff in the genre since the 1980s. It's because of this experience that I expect consistency throughout a game, and BTTFTG holds your hand so much, that the one time it slipped up, I didn't realize it until it was too late.

Now that I've had the opportunity to play through the episode a second time, I realize that the way the entire scene is structured is to blame. Specifically, I'm referring to when Marty

discovers Doc is in prison. First you go through an entire long conversation with him that doesn't get into key plot details, which you'd think would be so important that they'd come up first, then you're forced to end the conversation, with the implication being that now the player should focus on gameplay. Only it's a lie, because you can click on the jail cell again to continue your conversation with Doc and learn all about where Doc's been, why the DeLorean still exists, etc. I followed what appeared to be the game's directive to the letter, and by the time I came back to the jail cell to get advice on 1931 Doc's muttering, I didn't notice that the other dialogue options had become available. Part of this, too, can be blamed on the fact that some dialogue options in Telltale games can be repeated infinitely, and by the time I'd come back, it simply didn't occur to me that this was new information.

Did I err? Yes. Did Telltale also err? Yes. Is this going to put a damper on the experience of some players, especially those who are much less familiar with the structure of adventure games, who are bound to purchase and play this game once word gets out? YES.

It's just my opinion, and obviously not popular among the Telltale addicts who populate these forums, but this is a different experience than any adventure game which has ever preceded it. This is the official (or as close as possible to official) continuation of a beloved film franchise, and that being the case, PLOT is extremely important. I can virtually guarantee that I'm not the only player who made this mistake, even if I'm the only one to come here and say so.

Edit: As a complete coincidence, I just happened to read this thread: http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21428&page=6, in which a member by the name of Sugar Rush mentions missing the same part I did, and also was not aware of having missed it until it was explained to him or her.

As for my post count, it's low because no Telltale game has ever motivated me to post on the forums before.

Hassat Hunter wrote: »

Yet you decide to skip it. Weird, ain't it?

I didn't decide to skip anything. I didn't realize I was missing anything, and I wouldn't have even known I did if I hadn't visited these forums.

Hassat Hunter wrote: »

What's the point if all dialogue is automatically said in a cutscene like you wish? THEN it would really be an interactive movie instead of a game, wouldn't you say?

Not ALL the dialogue. KEY PLOT DETAILS.

And here's the thing: BTTFTG is an interactive movie. There is virtually no game to speak of; this is just "click stuff, win happens." At no point are you ever really influencing the way anything will transpire; interactivity is relegated to occasionally choosing a line of dialogue for Marty which will have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the events which have all been predestined for you. Farmville is more of a game than BTTFTG, because at least in that, you choose which crops to plant, when to harvest, and stuff goes bad if you forget to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with the fact that BTTFTG is this way, and you should be too. But to pretend that it's NOT merely an interactive movie is dumb.

Hassat Hunter wrote: »

And yet... you missed important things. Food for thought.

Because I didn't click on every single thing my first time through, and was pushed away from discovering crucial elements of the plot, which is in stark contrast to the entire rest of the game, both preceding this section and following it.

Shadowknight1

Hm. You know, the first adventure game that I actually played was Bone. And I played that a week or so before BTTF came out. And I clicked on everything. That's what I did in BTTF. Does that make me some kind of oddity? Not really. I know from past game experience, namely RPGs, that NPCs often have more to say than what it seems.

sVybDy

I think it makes you a hardcore gamer. You're obsessed with every little detail, and I don't mean that in a bad way. I'm usually the same way, but with the way this game was set up, and my expectations going in, I relaxed those standards a little. Admittedly, I goofed, but my point is in showing that this is something that Telltale should take into consideration for the episodes still in the works.

Emily

Why are people being so hostile to the OP? It's a good point -- the designers shouldn't assume that every player will exhaust all optional dialog options. (And in general I think tucking major plot points into incidental dialog is something TTG's designers do a good job of avoiding.)

I think I also missed some background in the Doc jail conversation because by the time those options showed up I was too eager to get to my objective than to go thru all of them. I figured I'd go back later but never did. That doesn't mean I played it wrong, and honestly I think it's the kind of feedback Telltale's designers would want to hear...

CrazedCow22

It's funny that all the new people coming around complaining how the game is just an 'interactive movie' have apparently never played ANY of the old LucasArts adventure games.

Sam & Max (Original), Day of the Tentacle, and the Monkey Island games were ALL basically the same format as BTTF. There were no consequences; it was collect items, engage in dialogue, use dialogue to use items, and you're done.

I'm shocked (Not really, cause most of those complaining seem of a much younger generation that haven't played the original LucasArt adventure games) someone hasn't cried about how realistic Day of the Tentacle was in regards to time travel. Change something in the past to affect the future! "Wahhh! That's how THIS should have been too!"

taumel

I only go through all conversation options if a) the character i'm talking to has something interesting to say or b) if i'm forced to in order to get information i need to progress in the game. As conversations in TTG's adventures sadly aren't always fascinating, it's more due to the second option.

Davies

Giant Tope wrote: »

I agree. The ironic thing is that I haven't seen Davies around until fairly recently, and they seem to be complaining a lot about the new folk.

Time to take my (unfunny) joker's hat off methinks. Please stay with
me as I become (boring) and serious...

Giant Tope, that's cool but the reason I've not been around much until lately is because I've only just got a regular Internet connection. Also, If you'd care to browse some of my older posts then you can always click on my profile (I've actually been following Telltale and this forum ever since their first game, Bone). If you do so I'm pretty sure you'd find me to be an extremely non-hostile fellow. I'm genuinely sorry if you consider me to be a bit of a git.

Just to clear things up, the reason I commented on the low number of posts (along with the OPs comments) was because I feel it indicates that the person posting has little to no knowledge of the adventure genre and that they were drawn to Telltale purely because they're a fan of the BTTF movies. Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this but none the less, as a seasoned adventure gamer I sometimes find it frustrating that there's an influx of new forum dwellers requesting that Telltale add action genre elements and the like to a traditional genre (not that the OP of this thread said this, I'm just saying). Again, there's nothing wrong with this per say, it's more of a personal thing and a fear of Telltale dumbing down the adventure game model further to appease newcomers.

The last thing I feel I should point out is that every time I've made a negative comment, I've used humor when doing so to deflate my own argument (I guess you could call it playing devil's advocate). I honestly didn't mean to or want to offend anyone or come across as a bitter old bastard. If I have done, then I can only apologise and hope that people can re-interpret my comments with a pinch of salt. I'd like to think that people can understand and appreciate my sense of humor but clearly that's not the case. I, for example love reading Secret Fawful's posts because I understand his attitude and humor but for everyone like me, there will always be three more people who don't appreciate that style.

For the record, I'm very happy to have all of these new comers playing adventure games and posting on the forum, the more attention the genre receives the better as far as I'm concerned. All I would ask is that they try to understand the history of the genre and the foundations it was built upon.

I really hope that clears things up and rest assured that I won't be making any more comments liable to upset people (at least without provocation) in the near future.

Hassat Hunter

sVybDy wrote: »

Only it's a lie, because you can click on the jail cell again to continue your conversation with Doc

Golden rule of adventures and RPG's; Milk each and every conversation. I am pretty bad at adventures, yet I still know to do that. It's a lesson for you. It's not plot critical at all either, just background story for the BTTF-fans. What WAS plot-critical had been given (get younger doc to help with the tool!). Don't confuse the 2!

Part of this, too, can be blamed on the fact that some dialogue options in Telltale games can be repeated infinitely, and by the time I'd come back, it simply didn't occur to me that this was new information.

I give you this. I do agree they could use greying out of used up lines. Sam and Max Season 3 already used that system (although it was a little glitchy there with lines that had other requirements, like having quest items never staying permanent white so you knew it had to be used to advance a puzzle later on).

Did I err? Yes. Did Telltale also err? Yes.

Not really. You don't need to know about the DeLorean to finish the game. It's just some additional background story, not game critical plot story. I realise you disagree but in that you and I (and the TTG staff apparently) differ.

Is this going to put a damper on the experience of some players, especially those who are much less familiar with the structure of adventure games, who are bound to purchase and play this game once word gets out? YES.

Although they learn a valuable lesson of Adventure Gaming, which will give them more joy in the next episode or other adventures, as then they discover that there are "hidden" dialogues there too... Especially in RPG's NPC's might have a few new lines as quests progress.

but this is a different experience than any adventure game which has ever preceded it.

No? Actually, it's pretty much dime in a dozen...

I didn't decide to skip anything. I didn't realize I was missing anything, and I wouldn't have even known I did if I hadn't visited these forums.

And that's why one in Adventures and RPG's pick dialogue lines untill NPC's start repeating themselves. Or you're sure you heard all variations as sometimes the banter is randomly selected.

At no point are you ever really influencing the way anything will transpire; interactivity is relegated to occasionally choosing a line of dialogue for Marty which will have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the events which have all been predestined for you.

Like 90% of all adventures in existance you mean? This isn't a RPG where quests resolve around your choices. I don't see why anyone would expect BttF suddenly to have RPG elements inside it.
But then again, S&M305 did have a few variations in ending, so who knows for BttF ep. 5?

But to pretend that it's NOT merely an interactive movie is dumb.

Have you played Fahrenheit? That's a bit more how I see an interactive movie, not BttF. And I like Fahrenheit, so it's not bad. Wish Heavy Rain came to the PC too .

Brightstar

My question about the dialogue

in the jailed doc scene, Doc reveals that the duplication happened when the lighting hit. If this is the case, isn't there a second Marty running around somewhere as well? And how did we not come across him in any of the movies?

markeres

Brightstar wrote: »

My question about the dialogue

in the jailed doc scene, Doc reveals that the duplication happened when the lighting hit. If this is the case, isn't there a second Marty running around somewhere as well? And how did we not come across him in any of the movies?

No, because Doc was talking about when the DeLorean was struck by lightining at the end of BTTFII, when he was in the DeLorean, sending him to 1885. So, the appropriate question is, "isn't there a second Doc running around somewhere?".

Anyway, the discussion for that particular topic is in this thread.

DaleCooper

Emily wrote: »

Why are people being so hostile to the OP? It's a good point -- the designers shouldn't assume that every player will exhaust all optional dialog options. (And in general I think tucking major plot points into incidental dialog is something TTG's designers do a good job of avoiding.)

People around here are hostile to everyone who doesn't absolutely worship Telltale.

Apparently, they're unaware that criticism is necessary for improving.

Instead, they choose to ignore each & every mistake & if Telltale happened to releas a faulty & buggy version of Frogger, the lot in these forums would praise it as the best version ever released, hands-down.

Emily wrote: »

I think I also missed some background in the Doc jail conversation because by the time those options showed up I was too eager to get to my objective than to go thru all of them. I figured I'd go back later but never did. That doesn't mean I played it wrong, and honestly I think it's the kind of feedback Telltale's designers would want to hear...

Some of them, not all. I've been banned twice for pointing out some stuff... the zealots called it trolling & a certain person jumped at the opportunity to use that as an excuse to get rid of me.

Cheers!

Hassat Hunter

Plenty of people complained about the buginess of recent TTG titles. They certainly aren't infaliable as 303/305 showed to me as well...

But if someone complains because they just didn't exhaust conversation, which you should know you should do always in RPG's/Adventures that's hardly an error of TTG's make.

plrichard

This whole "Telltale Zealot" accusing needs to stop. The people that act like that, myself included, are only that way because we saw the adventure gaming industry tumble and fall and saw Telltale revive it.

But regardless, in this case I don't think it's necessary to accuse Telltale of making an error. Now, if

Doc had never said anything about Young Doc

without some deep prodding then I could completely understand. However, I would think it's common sense if you want to know more about what happened, I don't know, ASK SOMEONE THAT WOULD KNOW? Sorry, but I feel like the argument here is nonexistent. The major plot points were made clear to everyone as you wouldn't be able to finish the game otherwise.

thesporkman

Is anything Doc says in that second series of dialogue options really crucial plot information though? You don't need to know where the Delorean came from in order to understand the immediate plot or puzzles of the game. You don't need to know how Clara and the kids are doing or that Doc has plans to meet with Marty and Jennifer in 2011.

mathman77

thesporkman wrote: »

Is anything Doc says in that second series of dialogue options really crucial plot information though? You don't need to know where the Delorean came from in order to understand the immediate plot or puzzles of the game. You don't need to know how Clara and the kids are doing or that Doc has plans to meet with Marty and Jennifer in 2011.

For the episode, it's not important. For the series as a whole it kind of is. I an glad these dialogues were optional. I didn't want to know where the Delorean came from because I knew I probably wouldn't have been satisfied with any explination, no matter how good. Yes, I'm strange.

Chyron8472

I agree with plrichard about the "Telltale zealot" accusations. It's not fair.

The lot of us got really irritated at Telltale about: how long it was taking them to ship ToMI Deluxe Edition; staff wouldn't tell us for a long time what the ToMI DVD copy protection was; the quality of merch that came with the ToMI Deluxe Edition; staff still haven't released an Earl Boen version of the ToMI Ep 1 download; and several other things as well. We're not fanboys/girls to the point of willful ignorance. We just praise Telltale for having brought back the adventure game genre from near death after about 10 years of stagnation, not to mention all of their games are really very good when it comes right down to it.

The issue with (near) single-digit posters is that, often they create new threads without having searched the forum for similar questions leading to the same question being answered several times; and also, given that adventure gaming is somewhat of a niche market, a number of newcomers seem to have very limited (if any) previous experience playing adventure games and are therefore prone to complain (or so it seems) about certain aspects of a specific game which are considered by many to be par-for-the-course in the genre or for Telltale.

Maybe we're too quick to judge sometimes. Maybe we're a bit too irritable or short with people who haven't been in the community/played the genre long enough to know the ropes. Maybe we consider Telltale to be the biggest name in adventure gaming since LucasArts or Sierra On-Line. That doesn't make us zealots, though.

redfish

Emily wrote: »

Why are people being so hostile to the OP? It's a good point -- the designers shouldn't assume that every player will exhaust all optional dialog options. (And in general I think tucking major plot points into incidental dialog is something TTG's designers do a good job of avoiding.)

I think because most people didn't have a problem with the game, and don't see why others do.

When I started playing adventure games back in the early 90s, I had to get accustomed to the fact that you had to try every single thing and listen to every single thing. I didn't realize it at first, and when I realized it in one case at least I played the game over to make sure I didn't miss anything.

At any rate, I just accepted that this is the way these games work. If it shouldn't be how they work, people should be making their case on why, instead of just suggesting its a problem just because it is.

RMJ1984

we dont wanna play interactive movies we wanna play games, Adventure is listening to everything people has to say, its like whining about i dont wanna shot people in an fps game. lol :P

plrichard

RMJ1984 wrote: »

we dont wanna play interactive movies we wanna play games, adventure is listening to everything people has to say, its like whining about i dont wanna shot people in an fps game. Lol

qft

thesporkman

RMJ1984 wrote: »

its like whining about i dont wanna shot people in an fps game. lol :P

That's funny, because that's my only real complaint about the Half Life series. I love the puzzle-solving and platforming sections, but I'm not that big on the shooting parts. I guess that's what Portal is for though. :P

Krohn

RMJ1984 wrote: »

we dont wanna play interactive movies we wanna play games, Adventure is listening to everything people has to say, its like whining about i dont wanna shot people in an fps game. lol :P

But if you have to listen to everything that is an interactive movie with just a bit more extra work.


And being forced to select everything in discussion trees isn't what adventure games are about, it is what transformed it into a dead genre.

Players want to have at least the illusion that their choices matter.

SHODANFreeman

Krohn wrote: »

But if you have to listen to everything that is an interactive movie with just a bit more extra work.


And being forced to select everything in discussion trees isn't what adventure games are about, it is what transformed it into a dead genre.

Players want to have at least the illusion that their choices matter.

You don't have to hear every line of dialogue.

It's like the Lechuck dialogue near the end of Curse of Monkey Island. If you really want to know, you can ask him a hundred pointless questions about what exactly happens after MI2 etc., but it's not required information to progress the game, it's just there if you are curious for some reason. And to make Rather Dashing mad.