Everyone will always have a complaint. I feel like a lot of people are just picking bones here. As far as redubbing S&M's voices I personally like the new voices better. While I like Hit the Road, I sometimes wonder if my copy of Hit the Road is different then others. Its a good game, but some people make it out to be the holy grail.
At this point Nowlin and Kasten are probably better-known for voicing Sam and Max than Farmer and Jameson are. It'd feel weird if the old VAs returned now. =/
Come on, lattsam, leave that horse alone, he's dead.
At this point, I'd be more willing to buy a version of Hit the Road re-dubbed by Nowling and Kasten than a re-dubbed version of the Telltale games with Jameson and Farmer. And I love Hit the Road.
I agree with what ShaggE said on the last page about Telltale's constant formula. The formula of their episodes, and the problems associated with that formula, haven't really stood out to me with all of Telltale's previous catalogue of episodes/games, but with 'BttF', they have all become clear.
It's true that this is basically what every Telltale game is built on, and the visuals, dialogue and humour aren't enough anymore to lift the episodes out of mediocrity. Not to mention that 'BttF' has the worst humour and dialogue so far. I played the whole way through Episode 1 and found it mildly fun and entertaining, and I seriously hoped that things would improve after this. But, come Episode 2, I found all of the same problems that I experienced in the first one:
Dialogue simply wasn't funny, and Marty's commentary of his surrounding wasn't funny. Now, usually, with Telltale's games, I have gone through each of them clicking on everything (multiple times), trying random combinations and exhausting all dialogue options. I have had absolutely no desire or incentive to do this in 'Back to the Future', because the writing is just so dull.
Gameplay was easier than ever - all I was doing was clicking around; I could almost solve puzzles by accident. I found myself simply going through the motions; solving similar puzzles to what I've solved in the past, passing them in the same manner, and passing them with more ease. I was so bored - there was nothing to keep me entertained. In all honesty, the voice acting was the most enjoyable thing about it (which you'd hope would be the case, seeing as how there's almost more cinematics than actual gameplay).
The easiness and simplicity of Telltale's puzzles is becoming something that is really damaging their games, and I don't think that it is something that can be solved simply by having a 'hard version' and an 'easy version' (I hate that crap anyway; I want everyone to play the same damned game so that we can discuss the same things afterward). It's something that has to be solved in a different way. See, there are three reasons why Telltale's games are so easy:
- The puzzles are never spread over more than three environments/locations. Heck, sometimes they are only spread over one. When all of your resources and means of solving the current puzzle are right there in the room, then it's only a matter of freaking time and random clicking before you solve it.
- The interface is crap. I'm just going to say it, it's rubbish. One-click is no way to play an adventure game. In all other adventure games, you had at least three actions to choose from, and you had to use all of to progress through the game. It wasn't just clicking on random objects before you stumble upon the solution. You had to think; you had to work; you had to sit there at the screen and actually ponder what you had to do to solve this brain-teaser.
- There's usually no item-combining. Telltale's most challenging game to date has been 'Tales of Monkey Island', and this was because the option of combining items resulted in there being three factors involved in passing a puzzle, as opposed to just two - 'use correct inventory item on correct environment item'. But, seeing as how this is not present in the rest of Telltale's games, they suffer greatly.
Also, these three reasons that I've mentioned above are also what are damaging Telltale in other areas - depth and exploration. You know what was so great about all of the old LucasArts and Sierra games? There was a large interface to experiment with, there were multiple items to use on each other (and most of the time they'd trigger a really funny response), and there were vast, open locations to explore. You'd have to travel far and wide to collect the correct items to solve a single puzzle, you'd have to select one of 3, 6 or 9 interface options in order to get your proverbial hands on that item. Sure, it caused you to fail a lot of the time, but with the cleverly written dialogue and jokes you were rewarded anyway - with something entertaining. Also, this all caused the player to feel so much happier and fulfilled when they found the solution. The whole thing was a rewarding experience. With Telltale's games, most of the time, I'm just going through the motions and doing things with ease.
But I believe that all of these problems stem from one single issue - the schedule in that Telltale work. One-episode-per-month development causes so many problems. I've said this before, and I'll say it again (and again if needed), Telltale's work schedule and distribution method is so restrictive. Firstly, there's no time to make a non-linear game. I'd imagine development would be so full on, that only a limited amount of dialogue would be able to be written, which also sort of rules out the possibility of a more sophisticated & wider interface (which spawns more dialogue and character actions). Also, it wouldn't allow the developers to make any more than just a few locations - so exploration is a no-go. So, basically, this tight, hectic schedule really kills a lot of what made/makes adventure games great. Either Telltale has to actually give themselves time by working on a bi-monthly release schedule, or switch to full-lengthed games.
You won't be proven wrong because you're absolutely right. Telltale are digging themselves a hole, they've taken on too many projects, they'll manage to finish them, but they'll probably be even more watered-down, more linear, with probably even less substance and depth than ever before.
I absolutely whole heartedly agree with this post.
You couldn't have put it better.
The voices.. seriously? The voices were different in the cartoon series as well. And a lot of people came to the franchise only knowing the cartoon.
Honestly, I grew up with hit the road and the voices have never bothered me in the Telltale games. They still felt right, still had the right.... feel. I think the voice actors did an excellent job and deserve more credit than they're getting. It's never easy when you come into a role already made famous by another, but it's no different than a new actor playing Batman or Doctor Who or whatever. There's always going to be people going "Waaah, i liked the old one better" but really? It's a dead horse that doesn't need to be flogged.
It's not a monetary issue, it's an availability issue. And after two or three seasons, why would you go back and redub all that dialogue when the dialogue is perfectly fine as is? It's an insult to the voice actors who put a lot of time and effort into the work.
And honestly, I don't find it that jarring. Go watch the cartoon series, that's far more of a jarring shift.
I hope Telltale really are taking this to heart: your biggest fans are saying they agree with this article. This should tell you something.
It's not just about difficulty, either. I think that's a small part of the puzzle. It's about everything just not being up to the standard of a quality project, whether it's because of some distorted speech, a continuity bug that nearly every player experiences but somehow either wasn't caught or wasn't fixed, some visual or animation blemish. I realise that you are working to tight schedules but it often seems like you're getting worse with this stuff instead of the slow but steady improvement we were seeing before. This is IMPORTANT.
Whenever someone asks me if they should by a Telltale game, I say 'Yes, but.' I'm getting tired of having to apologise for you because I KNOW you should be doing better.
So is it generally agreed that Telltale should drop the episodic format?
I don't see too much of a problem with it, but I can definitely see why other people would.
Maybe if it wasnt one month between each ep it would give them more time to work on it and we would still have fun getting a whole sesion worth of fun out of it.
Yeah. Seriously. I'm playing this one episodic fan-made series called Silver Lining, made by Phoenix Online Studios, and they release new episodes whenever they feel they're ready. Of course, if Phoenix Online released them on a monthly basis like Telltale did, I'd probably be playing episodes 4 and 5 by now, but I don't know if they'd have the polish that the current ones have.
I don't have too much problems with the episodic format. Just the way how it's working out. It worked perfectly with Sam and Max and even with Tales of Monkey Island (although that felt like it would've been better as a whole game.) The quality of the games is just dumbed down a lot now.
The episodic format isn't a problem, but I think Telltale needs to find (or better make) franchises that fit the format. For the other franchises, I think they are big enough now to consider making full lenght games for of them.
Of course, changing your whole business model does come with implications, so it's really Not That Simple.
On the other hand, they do have a lot of work right now, and I don't think anyone should argue against longer time between releases in order to make the games truly sparkle.
I'm sorry, I know there's stuff in there that I'd love to reply to, but I'm still reeling at the fact that somebody else agrees with me on Maniac Mansion. It's gonna take some time for my mind to fully recover from that blow.
I think lots of people agree with you there. I certainly do. DoTT doesn't match the game style. It is a great game. It would even make a nice spin-off if it were a TV show...etc. Frasier was a great cheers spin-off, but it didn't claim to be cheers.
No, not really but my contract says i have to, so:
Pooyan = TT = Looking somehow nice, well executed, limited boring gameplay so no need to spend further coins.
Dig Dug = LucasArts = Complex gameplay, can be quite hard but unique and still fascinating, a mastepiece.
Amidar = Sierra = Looks worse than the others, irritating and, sorry, i mostly just don't care.
I really think that if they want to convince people to buy their Sam and Max games, they need to change one thing...
...they need to redub the voices of Sam and Max, so that they're voiced by Bill Farmer and Nick Jameson, the original voices of Sam and Max in Sam and Max Hit the Road.
1. I think Sam and Max is selling fine as is, and after three seasons, going back to the old voice actors isn't going to win anybody over.
2. Even if it wins a FEW people over, redubbing three seasons with the original actors would talke a massive amount of time, effort, and money, and at this point it wouldn't be worth the cost.
3. And as a matter of opinion, count me among those who like the current voices better. No disrespect to Farmer and Jameson, who are excellent voice actors, but their portrayal of Sam and Max to me sounds like people doing Sam and Max voices. Nowlin and Kasten's voices sound more natural, like Sam and Max are real characters who are actually talking.
Besides, Farmer gets pretty busy playing another hat-wearing dog for a much larger studio. :P
Quoted from Deathspank writer Sean Howard's blog
[...]Discuss.
I would, but I'm still trying to get over the fact that Dashing apparently has a secret identity. That blog post could have been written by him. If you didn't name the author and removed the part about Deathspank and having applied at telltale, I would have bet anything that it was written by him. It's eerie.
I agree with the main point of the blog, which I've made clear for a very long time, so I don't feel the need to list my arguments again.
No, not really but my contract says i have to, so:
Pooyan = TT = Looking somehow nice, well executed, limited boring gameplay so no need to spend further coins.
Dig Dug = LucasArts = Complex gameplay, can be quite hard but unique and still fascinating, a mastepiece.
Amidar = Sierra = Looks worse than the others, irritating and, sorry, i mostly just don't care.
I agree with the first two and partly with the last.
Sierra games are harder to get in to, but when you do, their real gems!
Amidar = Sierra = Looks worse than the others, irritating and, sorry, i mostly just don't care.
Pardon me while I call you an idiot. Okay, okay we have a difference of opinion about Sierra. You don't have to like them, but... oh, hell. I don't care about being called a troll. You're an idiot.
I gave them several times a try (i tried cracked versions, bought an original, lend them from friends, tried it on different computers, during full moon, had sex before/after/during playing the games, ... ) but beside of some soso to good experiences from SQ, oh and Gabriel Knight, i just don't like their adventures. I think i rather would give up playing adventure games before really enjoying an Sierra adventure.
And it provides a measurement for the stability of your partnership: "Hold on for a sec, let me just tryout this idea".
The way to improve TT's interactive moments is to booze but you have to be careful because personally i do have two stages, stage 1 = beeing funny and stage 2 = getting sleepy. So you have to balance it, otherwise it gets boring again.
Quick personal take on the article: Disagreement with certain particulars (comedy; Guybrush), but agreement on the overall argument. The former range from healthily to deeply subjective so I won't press those points. The latter ... it's hard to think of anything I could add that hasn't already been stated here and elsewhere. Not to mention much better than some of my own sloppy attempts.
I *love* Telltale to death, but when I realized that I couldn't disagree with Sean Howard's criticisms, I also realized that I'm more a fan of Telltale's writers, musicians and artists than the games themselves.
It's not just about difficulty, either. I think that's a small part of the puzzle. It's about everything just not being up to the standard of a quality project, whether it's because of some distorted speech, a continuity bug that nearly every player experiences but somehow either wasn't caught or wasn't fixed, some visual or animation blemish. I realise that you are working to tight schedules but it often seems like you're getting worse with this stuff instead of the slow but steady improvement we were seeing before. This is IMPORTANT.
Yes. We could go back and forth forever on just when an adventure game stops being one (I've had my misgivings, but BttF -- as fun as the story has been -- dipped below that threshold for both me and more than a few others here). Steadily-proliferating technical issues, on the other hand, are just ... bad. Unambiguously so.
... To end this with some sense of levity (because I'm compelled towards it by nature), the one thing that DOES make me feel better about this comment is no longer attempting write it on a phone without "copy/paste" and a browser that locks up whenever I hit backspace too many times in a row. :B
Also, Chyron's post -- after gutting me to the core with its expression of a mutual sentiment -- somehow reminded me of this:
"Gee, I don't know anybody who could firebomb kittens!"
"Here, let me."
TT is like the 35 year old son who still lifes with his mother and enjoys watching his 14 favourite TV series.
LucasArts is like the man who left home early and after his studies travelled around the world with his motorcycle.
Sierra is like the Elephant Man.
TT is like the 35 year old son who still lifes with his mother and enjoys watching his 14 favourite TV series.
LucasArts is like the man who left home early and after his studies travelled around the world with his motorcycle.
Sierra is like the old man who didnt' even have home to leave, nor parents, so he build himself a cottage in the forest while fighting the constants attacks of grizzly bears.
Comments
At this point, I'd be more willing to buy a version of Hit the Road re-dubbed by Nowling and Kasten than a re-dubbed version of the Telltale games with Jameson and Farmer. And I love Hit the Road.
GET... OVER... IT...
(And this is coming from a voice enthousiast.)
I absolutely whole heartedly agree with this post.
You couldn't have put it better.
Honestly, I grew up with hit the road and the voices have never bothered me in the Telltale games. They still felt right, still had the right.... feel. I think the voice actors did an excellent job and deserve more credit than they're getting. It's never easy when you come into a role already made famous by another, but it's no different than a new actor playing Batman or Doctor Who or whatever. There's always going to be people going "Waaah, i liked the old one better" but really? It's a dead horse that doesn't need to be flogged.
It's not a monetary issue, it's an availability issue. And after two or three seasons, why would you go back and redub all that dialogue when the dialogue is perfectly fine as is? It's an insult to the voice actors who put a lot of time and effort into the work.
And honestly, I don't find it that jarring. Go watch the cartoon series, that's far more of a jarring shift.
It's not just about difficulty, either. I think that's a small part of the puzzle. It's about everything just not being up to the standard of a quality project, whether it's because of some distorted speech, a continuity bug that nearly every player experiences but somehow either wasn't caught or wasn't fixed, some visual or animation blemish. I realise that you are working to tight schedules but it often seems like you're getting worse with this stuff instead of the slow but steady improvement we were seeing before. This is IMPORTANT.
Whenever someone asks me if they should by a Telltale game, I say 'Yes, but.' I'm getting tired of having to apologise for you because I KNOW you should be doing better.
I don't see too much of a problem with it, but I can definitely see why other people would.
Maybe if it wasnt one month between each ep it would give them more time to work on it and we would still have fun getting a whole sesion worth of fun out of it.
The episodic format isn't a problem, but I think Telltale needs to find (or better make) franchises that fit the format. For the other franchises, I think they are big enough now to consider making full lenght games for of them.
On the other hand, they do have a lot of work right now, and I don't think anyone should argue against longer time between releases in order to make the games truly sparkle.
I think lots of people agree with you there. I certainly do. DoTT doesn't match the game style. It is a great game. It would even make a nice spin-off if it were a TV show...etc. Frasier was a great cheers spin-off, but it didn't claim to be cheers.
Care to motivate your comparison?
Pooyan = TT = Looking somehow nice, well executed, limited boring gameplay so no need to spend further coins.
Dig Dug = LucasArts = Complex gameplay, can be quite hard but unique and still fascinating, a mastepiece.
Amidar = Sierra = Looks worse than the others, irritating and, sorry, i mostly just don't care.
1. I think Sam and Max is selling fine as is, and after three seasons, going back to the old voice actors isn't going to win anybody over.
2. Even if it wins a FEW people over, redubbing three seasons with the original actors would talke a massive amount of time, effort, and money, and at this point it wouldn't be worth the cost.
3. And as a matter of opinion, count me among those who like the current voices better. No disrespect to Farmer and Jameson, who are excellent voice actors, but their portrayal of Sam and Max to me sounds like people doing Sam and Max voices. Nowlin and Kasten's voices sound more natural, like Sam and Max are real characters who are actually talking.
Besides, Farmer gets pretty busy playing another hat-wearing dog for a much larger studio. :P
And Sierra is one of those complicated Logic Grid puzzles
Sierra is Super Mario Bros. the Lost Levels.
Nintendo, however, is pretty much WIN!
And why do I get the feeling that this is yet another derailment that should be in forum games?
I would, but I'm still trying to get over the fact that Dashing apparently has a secret identity. That blog post could have been written by him. If you didn't name the author and removed the part about Deathspank and having applied at telltale, I would have bet anything that it was written by him. It's eerie.
I agree with the main point of the blog, which I've made clear for a very long time, so I don't feel the need to list my arguments again.
I agree with the first two and partly with the last.
Sierra games are harder to get in to, but when you do, their real gems!
Telltale plays it safe. There, I said it.
...I don't feel any better. Heck, I don't know what else to even add to further this conversation. I just feel like crap thinking about it.
Edit: wait, what?
Pardon me while I call you an idiot. Okay, okay we have a difference of opinion about Sierra. You don't have to like them, but... oh, hell. I don't care about being called a troll. You're an idiot.
The way to improve TT's interactive moments is to booze but you have to be careful because personally i do have two stages, stage 1 = beeing funny and stage 2 = getting sleepy. So you have to balance it, otherwise it gets boring again.
I'll say this much, though. Both this
and this
resonate so much with me it hurts.
But because I think it's worth emphasizing amidst all the gameplay talk, I'll quote this too:
Yes. We could go back and forth forever on just when an adventure game stops being one (I've had my misgivings, but BttF -- as fun as the story has been -- dipped below that threshold for both me and more than a few others here). Steadily-proliferating technical issues, on the other hand, are just ... bad. Unambiguously so.
... To end this with some sense of levity (because I'm compelled towards it by nature), the one thing that DOES make me feel better about this comment is no longer attempting write it on a phone without "copy/paste" and a browser that locks up whenever I hit backspace too many times in a row. :B
Also, Chyron's post -- after gutting me to the core with its expression of a mutual sentiment -- somehow reminded me of this:
LucasArts is like the man who left home early and after his studies travelled around the world with his motorcycle.
Sierra is like the Elephant Man.
Infocom scales Mount Everest blindfolded.
Tries to be all things to everybody and ends up being not particularly liked by either group
Lucasarts = Homo
Creative, Flamboyant and not afraid to try something a little different once in a while
Sierra = Hetro
Ultimately rewarding but you have to be prepared to put in the work and sometimes even then it's not enough.
On a serious note absolutely everything light_rises said.