We're absolutely not moving away from the episodic model at all! We're committed to it 100%!
This actually really worries me to hear, especially with Telltale taking on 'King's Quest'. I feel that the things about the 'KQ' series that I value the most will be absent due to the episodic format being unable to allow for their inclusion. I'm referring to things such as exploration, freedom, vastness, reward for experimentation, etc. We've seen these things cut down to their barest point in Telltale's recent products, but this hasn't been too drastic or damaging to the overall experience (except for in 'BttF'), since the high quality of other elements (such as storytelling, dialogue and visuals) has been able to compensate for the poor quality (or complete lack) of others. But, with 'King's Quest', I really fail to see how it could avoid being disastrous. The episodic format will be removing and/or diminishing everything that made the original games great, while enhancing those which did not. Episodic gaming on a monthly schedule simply cannot support 'King's Quest'. It's caused problems in other games, but it will cause enormous problems with 'KQ'.
I would say that it depends on how the King's Quest episodes are broken up.
KQ1 is short, and you are allowed to obtain the treasures in any order, so it wouldn't work well.
In KQ2, the game could be sectioned into "parts" (sort of) by the need to obtain the next key for each door. Granted this game is very short, so it would work better in a longer form such as KQ2+ by AGDI.
In KQ3, the game could be sectioned into parts such as: before cat-cookie; after cat-cookie/on pirate ship; on Daventry.
In KQ4, the game could be sectioned into parts, either between items Lolotte demanded or between the passage of day to night to day again.
In KQ5, it could be sectioned into parts between the opening area; the mountains; the sea; and Mordack's castle.
KQ6 is hard because you can hop at will between islands, accomplishing various goals in a random order, and there are few clear breaks in the flow of the story.
The problem I have with having seperate episodes is this: I want to be required to play the game from start to finish, and have the game keep track of my chosen inventory the whole time. I greatly dislike being able to start at any given chapter in KQ7, and I also equally loathe even the remote possibility of the game assuming certain inventory items at the start of a new chapter. For example, when I play KQ7, I almost always choose Colin Farwalker's rope in chapter 1. However, if I started a new game at chapter 3, the game defaults by giving me the bug juice and the horn.
Given that Telltale have never built an episodic game where various inventory items are remembered and passed from one chapter to the next, nor have they ever required savegame data from previous episodes before playing the next subsequent one, this does make me very nervous.
Oh, and the whole lack-of-exploration-to-wherever-I-dang-well-please part of the discussion. That also bothers me.
I'd also like to emphasize that it's not just the episodic format that I consider to be the problem; it's the one-episode-per-month modus operandi which gets me worried. It not only forces the individual episodes into self-containment, but, due to apparent/existent time constraints, it also causes there to be either: a) no depth to large environments/worlds, or b) extremely condensed environments/worlds; neither of which I want to see in a 'King's Quest' game.
You can't have multiple endings or a story that branches depending on the choices you make in-game.
LIES!
It's just sad TTG doesn't use the ability to do EXACTLY that. Savegame importation becomes more mainstream (The Witcher II, Mass Effect series), so no harm in using that, seeing how registry entries apparently fail due to Windows "safeguards", which lead the the reports of the wrong name.
And it would be even easier for gamers than a full-game. Want to change something in Ep #3? Just load that up instead of a new game. Or keep tons of saves all over the place...
First the games have a deadline which is not a really good thing to have if you want to make a quality game.
You mean like, all games? And seriously how many retail games have a proper instead of rushed ending? Exactly.
PS. It didn't do Duke Nukem Forever much good not to have a deadline.
So this point is completely irrelevant in "One game vs. Episodes".
Also it forces the makers to make the ending of the episode dramatic, which does not always work out.
No it doesn't. See S&M season 1. Also series like 24 have done it very well for years. Also full games tend to do this with chapters (see also; Monkey Island games).
I feel like designing a game episodically, then putting it on a disk and releasing it all at once is kind of a "worst of both worlds" scenario
Yup. No wait, no feedback, no one-game world, but five-game world. It definetely sounds like that...
Since the game is still going to be released episodically on iPad I'm guessing we're going to get all of the downsides of episodic gaming with none of the benefits.
So, hopefully this is just for these consoles and not PC, right? Right?
Well, not really. I mean, it's and ending....Guybrush escapes...but it's so incredibly anti-climactic and abrupt that it doesn't really end up being satisfying at all.
Well, not really. I mean, it's and ending....Guybrush escapes...but it's so incredibly anti-climactic and abrupt that it doesn't really end up being satisfying at all.
I honestly wouldn't have minded it either way, really. If he had stayed stuck in he underworld it would left on a bitter-sweet note with maybe hope for the future, which is always an ending that I like, but I still do like the ending as it is because you finally get to use that bloody ring that you've been carrying around for, what, four episodes? Seriously, I was actually rather relieved that the thing even had a use in the end, and happy that it's use sorta wrapped up the story nicely.
I guess I'm just easily pleased. Or something like that.
Well, not really. I mean, it's and ending....Guybrush escapes...but it's so incredibly anti-climactic and abrupt that it doesn't really end up being satisfying at all.
Ok. So you're saying that the kid who only ever wanted to be a pirate gets rewarded by being victim to a plague-like virus, dying at the hand of a former 'friend', coming back as a ghost and a zombie, having his wife stolen and the (un)living hell beaten out of him by LeChuck and then finally ends up stuck in purgatory/the crossroads/the afterlife/whatever forever.
Well, not really. I mean, it's and ending....Guybrush escapes...but it's so incredibly anti-climactic and abrupt that it doesn't really end up being satisfying at all.
Anti-climatic? The ring that was given to you way back in chapter two finally gets a use and Elaine's obsession with you having it finally makes sense. I was very satisfied with the ending.
No, that's not quite what MusicallyInspired was saying. He was merely saying that the ending that we were given wasn't exactly "infinitely more satisfying" than the alternative. He wasn't so much saying that one ending would be better than the other; he was mostly just criticizing the poor execution of the ending that we were given.
Ok. So you're saying that the kid who only ever wanted to be a pirate gets rewarded by being victim to a plague-like virus, dying at the hand of a former 'friend', coming back as a ghost and a zombie, having his wife stolen and the (un)living hell beaten out of him by LeChuck and then finally ends up stuck in purgatory/the crossroads/the afterlife/whatever forever.
Again, why are we assuming this? As far as I can tell, MusicallyInspired didn't actually directly/blatantly say "this ending would be better than this ending". Why are we responding to something that wasn't actually put forward in the comment?
He was saying that the ending of 'ToMI' was relatively unsatisfying due to the manner in which it was done.
Anti-climatic? The ring that was given to you way back in chapter two finally gets a use and Elaine's obsession with you having it finally makes sense. I was very satisfied with the ending.
As he said in his comment, the ending was extremely abrupt. This was essentially the main reason for the ending being anti-climactic. Yes, everything turned out how it should have (in the eyes of most fans), and it was a cheerful, light-hearted conclusion, but it jumped far too quickly from frantic action, to a depressing scene of hopelessness, to happiness and joy, to the credits. The pacing was poor; it all happened too quickly for any of it to properly sink in. The ending really needed to be drawn out a little more; not ridiculously, like in some games and films, but it certainly could have done with something slightly longer and substantial.
No, I too rather had Guybrush "stuck" there.
Until the next Monkey Island season of course, that is!
Yes, I think I sort of agree with you. While I do enjoy the ending (itself) that we got, I can certainly see the appeal in this alternative. All-in-all, it would give Guybrush's sacrifice a whole lot more meaning, it would break the trend of constant happy endings, it would make the ending of "Trial & Execution..." much more profound, and it would be a ballsy ending that would've been unexpected and extremely memorable.
Hayden read me correctly, I never meant that being stuck in the underworld was a better ending. Just that the ending that's there is incredibly short and a bit underwhelming. Not executed as well as it could have been.
Hayden read me correctly, I never meant that being stuck in the underworld was a better ending. Just that the ending that's there is incredibly short and a bit underwhelming. Not executed as well as it could have been.
Didn't you hear the commentary? They'd already blown the budget with LeChuck's ship. The powers that be probably told them to make it short and snappy on the cheap.
Still a bad ending.
But I am kind of used to games getting rushed endings. Sadly. Since that is probably what sticks around longest about the fun you had with a game...
Didn't you hear the commentary? They'd already blown the budget with LeChuck's ship. The powers that be probably told them to make it short and snappy on the cheap.
You just now informed me that there's a commentary on the DVD. Must go watch.
Sam and Max: The Devil's Playhouse was fantastic, and was my first time playing a Telltale game while it was still being released. As long as the episodes are released regularly, I don't mind an episodic format.
Having the Playhouse all at once would lessen the tension between episodes.
Seriously, I was actually rather relieved that the thing even had a use in the end, and happy that it's use sorta wrapped up the story nicely.
I was mostly annoyed that the first time I tried to use it in the exact same way, it didn't let me.
About episodic gaming, I kind of think it would work best without seasons. I don't see it happening, especially when DVDs are made for each season, but I like the idea of completely independent game that have no order to them. In the Ace Attorney games for instance, I tend to prefer the case that are NOT completely tied together. For instance the Mask DeMasque one in the third game is the only one that's not part of the main plot of that game, and the only one I actually liked . This being said, it does use continuity by reusing characters and items from previous games, but it's still much more independent than the others.
I guess my point is that I would probably enjoy the episodes more if each was its own game. I feel like telltale is often a "worst of both worlds" kind of option. In this case, not a full-length season (episodes limit the environment you can have, and things need to be done in some order at the very least to fit within each episode) but no completely independent episodes either (so you pretty much still have to play them in order and get them all to really follow what's going on. I mean technically you can play them independently, but technically you can also read any book starting in the middle).
Similarly I don't enjoy their take on the game/movies mix thing either. I've already talked about that though, probably don't need to parrot myself
I appreciate that they're trying to do something new, but it seems a bit like someone going "I like movies... I like books... Let's mix them up!". You could end up with something like comic books (please, no need to point out how inaccurate I am about the origin of comic books ) and that would be awesome, but if you just show pages on a movie screen and flip them, it's going to take from both media.
So if telltale really was 100% committed to episodic games (or I should say, what I envision when I think "episodic games"), I would actually think that's cool. But I don't think they are. They're committed to games that they can release bit by bit, which is slightly different.
That's not to say I think big epic stories divided into chapters can't work. I do think they can. But it seems limiting to have to work within each episode. I don't understand how that works, granted, but doesn't that mean that in the end DVD you need to have the same environment every time they're in a chapter rather than just once? Doesn't that limit how much you can have? Instead of having five places to go to that you can access in every chapter, you're more likely to be able to access one per chapter, and that's potentially a problem for the "epic story" kind of game because you have to limit the plot to the one area you could include in that episode.
Anyways. I think it would be cool if telltale decided to branch out and have some big-games that are divided into chapters but are sold as just one game with shared resources between episodes, and some other games that are completely independent and not grouped into seasons. But it doesn't sound like something they'd want and I have no idea if that would be practical or possible anyways.
I liked Puzzle Agent 2's ending. I thought it was hilarious.
In a good way or bad way? I was thinking of picking it up whilst preording The Walking Dead. (which is sounding cool [and I can't say 'looking cool' because we haven't really seen anything from it yet.])
To be honest even IF they decided in the future to not make episodic games I would still play them.... I wouldn't even really care either way... The biggest effect on me would be getting to talk to other fans on these boards WHILE the story was being told.
In a good way or bad way? I was thinking of picking it up whilst preording The Walking Dead. (which is sounding cool [and I can't say 'looking cool' because we haven't really seen anything from it yet.])
There's just a moment that's absurd and yet completely in tune with the game. It's a good ending for me.
Comments
This actually really worries me to hear, especially with Telltale taking on 'King's Quest'. I feel that the things about the 'KQ' series that I value the most will be absent due to the episodic format being unable to allow for their inclusion. I'm referring to things such as exploration, freedom, vastness, reward for experimentation, etc. We've seen these things cut down to their barest point in Telltale's recent products, but this hasn't been too drastic or damaging to the overall experience (except for in 'BttF'), since the high quality of other elements (such as storytelling, dialogue and visuals) has been able to compensate for the poor quality (or complete lack) of others. But, with 'King's Quest', I really fail to see how it could avoid being disastrous. The episodic format will be removing and/or diminishing everything that made the original games great, while enhancing those which did not. Episodic gaming on a monthly schedule simply cannot support 'King's Quest'. It's caused problems in other games, but it will cause enormous problems with 'KQ'.
KQ1 is short, and you are allowed to obtain the treasures in any order, so it wouldn't work well.
In KQ2, the game could be sectioned into "parts" (sort of) by the need to obtain the next key for each door. Granted this game is very short, so it would work better in a longer form such as KQ2+ by AGDI.
In KQ3, the game could be sectioned into parts such as: before cat-cookie; after cat-cookie/on pirate ship; on Daventry.
In KQ4, the game could be sectioned into parts, either between items Lolotte demanded or between the passage of day to night to day again.
In KQ5, it could be sectioned into parts between the opening area; the mountains; the sea; and Mordack's castle.
KQ6 is hard because you can hop at will between islands, accomplishing various goals in a random order, and there are few clear breaks in the flow of the story.
The problem I have with having seperate episodes is this: I want to be required to play the game from start to finish, and have the game keep track of my chosen inventory the whole time. I greatly dislike being able to start at any given chapter in KQ7, and I also equally loathe even the remote possibility of the game assuming certain inventory items at the start of a new chapter. For example, when I play KQ7, I almost always choose Colin Farwalker's rope in chapter 1. However, if I started a new game at chapter 3, the game defaults by giving me the bug juice and the horn.
Given that Telltale have never built an episodic game where various inventory items are remembered and passed from one chapter to the next, nor have they ever required savegame data from previous episodes before playing the next subsequent one, this does make me very nervous.
Oh, and the whole lack-of-exploration-to-wherever-I-dang-well-please part of the discussion. That also bothers me.
Lol @ this comment.
It's just sad TTG doesn't use the ability to do EXACTLY that. Savegame importation becomes more mainstream (The Witcher II, Mass Effect series), so no harm in using that, seeing how registry entries apparently fail due to Windows "safeguards", which lead the the reports of the wrong name.
And it would be even easier for gamers than a full-game. Want to change something in Ep #3? Just load that up instead of a new game. Or keep tons of saves all over the place... You mean like, all games? And seriously how many retail games have a proper instead of rushed ending? Exactly.
PS. It didn't do Duke Nukem Forever much good not to have a deadline.
So this point is completely irrelevant in "One game vs. Episodes". No it doesn't. See S&M season 1. Also series like 24 have done it very well for years. Also full games tend to do this with chapters (see also; Monkey Island games). Yup. No wait, no feedback, no one-game world, but five-game world. It definetely sounds like that... So, hopefully this is just for these consoles and not PC, right? Right? Agreed. But that in itself doesn't make episodic bad. Just that TTG kind of missed the ball with doing the climax too soon...
For Jurassic Park, all episodes will be released simultaneously on PC, Mac, Xbox and PS3.
Poetic & unforgettable.
I agree the ending TTG gave us is infinitely more satisfying then that.
as opposed to what? you'd rather he stayed?
I guess I'm just easily pleased. Or something like that.
:guybrush:
Anti-climatic? The ring that was given to you way back in chapter two finally gets a use and Elaine's obsession with you having it finally makes sense. I was very satisfied with the ending.
Until the next Monkey Island season of course, that is!
Again, why are we assuming this? As far as I can tell, MusicallyInspired didn't actually directly/blatantly say "this ending would be better than this ending". Why are we responding to something that wasn't actually put forward in the comment?
He was saying that the ending of 'ToMI' was relatively unsatisfying due to the manner in which it was done.
As he said in his comment, the ending was extremely abrupt. This was essentially the main reason for the ending being anti-climactic. Yes, everything turned out how it should have (in the eyes of most fans), and it was a cheerful, light-hearted conclusion, but it jumped far too quickly from frantic action, to a depressing scene of hopelessness, to happiness and joy, to the credits. The pacing was poor; it all happened too quickly for any of it to properly sink in. The ending really needed to be drawn out a little more; not ridiculously, like in some games and films, but it certainly could have done with something slightly longer and substantial.
Yes, I think I sort of agree with you. While I do enjoy the ending (itself) that we got, I can certainly see the appeal in this alternative. All-in-all, it would give Guybrush's sacrifice a whole lot more meaning, it would break the trend of constant happy endings, it would make the ending of "Trial & Execution..." much more profound, and it would be a ballsy ending that would've been unexpected and extremely memorable.
Didn't you hear the commentary? They'd already blown the budget with LeChuck's ship. The powers that be probably told them to make it short and snappy on the cheap.
But I am kind of used to games getting rushed endings. Sadly. Since that is probably what sticks around longest about the fun you had with a game...
*cough* Puzzle Agent 2 *cough*
You just now informed me that there's a commentary on the DVD. Must go watch.
Another game that was more harmed than helped from the "actual" ending being beyond what I think would be the best ending...
I dunno I still love Monkey Island 2.
Fable 2
I was actually physically upset at how crappy that ending was.
Never played it again.
(Though I did get Fable 3. Didn't even get all too far, and I just traded it in. Yeah, I traded on a game. Me.)
Shame, since I really loved that game.
But it just points out a classic design lesson:
If you are going to have a huge build-up, the payoff has to be greater than or equal to that expectation.
Its the Chekov's Gun thing.
If there is a gun in the room, it has to go off at some point, else putting it there in the first place is entirely pointless.
A red herring is fine, so long as the real thing is more interesting than the herring itself.
MI 2 had a really good ending.
"The Whispered World" has a horrible ending.
Whispered World's is about on par with MI2's only because they give you the illusion of choice and then take it from you.
Having the Playhouse all at once would lessen the tension between episodes.
I highly disagree.
I was mostly annoyed that the first time I tried to use it in the exact same way, it didn't let me.
About episodic gaming, I kind of think it would work best without seasons. I don't see it happening, especially when DVDs are made for each season, but I like the idea of completely independent game that have no order to them. In the Ace Attorney games for instance, I tend to prefer the case that are NOT completely tied together. For instance the Mask DeMasque one in the third game is the only one that's not part of the main plot of that game, and the only one I actually liked
I guess my point is that I would probably enjoy the episodes more if each was its own game. I feel like telltale is often a "worst of both worlds" kind of option. In this case, not a full-length season (episodes limit the environment you can have, and things need to be done in some order at the very least to fit within each episode) but no completely independent episodes either (so you pretty much still have to play them in order and get them all to really follow what's going on. I mean technically you can play them independently, but technically you can also read any book starting in the middle).
Similarly I don't enjoy their take on the game/movies mix thing either. I've already talked about that though, probably don't need to parrot myself
I appreciate that they're trying to do something new, but it seems a bit like someone going "I like movies... I like books... Let's mix them up!". You could end up with something like comic books (please, no need to point out how inaccurate I am about the origin of comic books
So if telltale really was 100% committed to episodic games (or I should say, what I envision when I think "episodic games"), I would actually think that's cool. But I don't think they are. They're committed to games that they can release bit by bit, which is slightly different.
That's not to say I think big epic stories divided into chapters can't work. I do think they can. But it seems limiting to have to work within each episode. I don't understand how that works, granted, but doesn't that mean that in the end DVD you need to have the same environment every time they're in a chapter rather than just once? Doesn't that limit how much you can have? Instead of having five places to go to that you can access in every chapter, you're more likely to be able to access one per chapter, and that's potentially a problem for the "epic story" kind of game because you have to limit the plot to the one area you could include in that episode.
Anyways. I think it would be cool if telltale decided to branch out and have some big-games that are divided into chapters but are sold as just one game with shared resources between episodes, and some other games that are completely independent and not grouped into seasons. But it doesn't sound like something they'd want and I have no idea if that would be practical or possible anyways.
In a good way or bad way? I was thinking of picking it up whilst preording The Walking Dead. (which is sounding cool [and I can't say 'looking cool' because we haven't really seen anything from it yet.])
There's just a moment that's absurd and yet completely in tune with the game. It's a good ending for me.