But still, the beginning of Jane's kickstarter was some what unclear of its goals. It has turned clearer as the time has progressed, but for a while in example the cycle idea was hard to get. They were talking about time span of a year, but the question of if the games aren't done by that time was never really answered, or at least I didn't notice it anywhere.
It's certainly a hell of a lot less ambiguous than Tim Schafer's kickstarter.
That's ridiculous. The only thing unknown about the Double Fine Kickstarter was the nature of the game. There was no ambiguity about what backers would be getting -- an adventure game designed by Schafer and Gilbert to be released later this year by a studio with a solid decade-long track record for shipping distinctive, quality games. That was sufficient information for 87,000+ people and $3+ million. Jensen doesn't have the same kind of status, and claiming the Double Fine project was ambiguous smells like sour grapes to me.
That said, I believe Jensen was earnest about her plan for Community Supported Gaming. It's just not something that comes across well as a Kickstarter project. I'm not really sure the idea of subscribing to a studio for a fixed time period would ever catch on among gamers, outside of the designer's hardcore fans.
In any event, I'm very glad Jensen found additional sources of funding and hope the development of her studio's game(s) goes much more smoothly than her Kickstarter project.
also... Josh Mandel and Al Lowe mentioned Jane's kickstarter multiple times asking people to help fund her project as well, I do not think anyone from Jane's camp returned the favor.. sort of tarnishes my enthusiasm in Jane's project to be honest.
I'm almost certain Jensen mentioned the Lowe-Mandel project (and possibly the Crowe-Murphy project as well) in one of her videos posted on the Kickstarter page, but I don't have time to verify that now.
I'm almost certain Jensen mentioned the Lowe-Mandel project (and possibly the Crowe-Murphy project as well) in one of her videos posted on the Kickstarter page, but I don't have time to verify that now.
No need I will take your word for it.. and its good to hear.
While I see some of the points of the arguments that her KS is less clear, etc, I completely disagree about it being poorly planned or a shitshow. If anything, she has proven she's paying very clear attention to what people want and are asking for: there are a ton of updates, the CSG model she had a clear idea of ahead of time. Maybe it could've been communicated better, sure, but I get no impression that she didn't have a solid plan going in.
They made it clear--year subscription, one game planned, maybe two. Then, without having hit that 600K, there's already now going to be a second game after all. How is that poor planning or a badly run KS?
Paying attention to what people wanted? That's not the point - to say "Hey, I have somewhat of an idea - send money and we'll make it clear."
It should be a specific project. This whole thing was amorphous from the start - I only pledged once Moebius was chosen as the game, because at that time it became clear to me. Kickstarter isn't just to throw a bunch of other people's money into a pot and see what happens; it's to fund a specific project.
That's ridiculous. The only thing unknown about the Double Fine Kickstarter was the nature of the game. There was no ambiguity about what backers would be getting -- an adventure game designed by Schafer and Gilbert to be released later this year by a studio with a solid decade-long track record for shipping distinctive, quality games. That was sufficient information for 87,000+ people and $3+ million. Jensen doesn't have the same kind of status, and claiming the Double Fine project was ambiguous smells like sour grapes to me.
The point I was making when calling the Double Fine ambiguous was that we had (and still have) no real clue what the game will be about, except that it's an adventure game. At least with Jane Jensen's project she provided three adventure game ideas and the guarantee that one of those will be made if the target was reached.
You say that Jensen doesn't have the same kind of status as Tim Scahfer? Well that's just wrong. OK her current company is unknown because it has just started but no one could argue that she doesn't have a history of making quality adventure games. Sure Schafer has had more well known games made recently than Jensen has but his last adventure game was 14 years ago! Jensen's last, on the other hand, was just two years ago. Oh and about that decade long track record? From 2000 to 2009 Double Fine released two games.
I still think the Kickstarter was maybe started a bit too soon. Though I do have some mixed feelings about it, I'm glad that a new adventure game is coming out.
The point I was making when calling the Double Fine ambiguous was that we had (and still have) no real clue what the game will be about, except that it's an adventure game.
That's not ambiguity; it's a deliberate unknown and it was part of the appeal and the fun of the DFA Kickstarter, at least to 87,000 of us.
At least with Jane Jensen's project she provided three adventure game ideas and the guarantee that one of those will be made if the target was reached.
It was one or two of three possible games, then it was a particular game, oh, wait, now it's a particular one of the three games plus a second mystery game... That's ambiguity. And I'm not necessarily saying that's a huge problem in itself, but it's compounded by how she structured the reward tiers. A lower tier was for one game and a higher tier was for a subscription, but until just recently it didn't look like a subscription would be much more than one game.
OK her current company is unknown because it has just started but no one could argue that she doesn't have a history of making quality adventure games. Sure Schafer has had more well known games made recently than Jensen has but his last adventure game was 14 years ago! Jensen's last, on the other hand, was just two years ago.
I didn't argue that Jensen doesn't have a history of making quality adventure games; nor did I imply that her status is akin to chopped liver. It simply isn't the same kind or level of status that Schafer and Gilbert have. The fact that they have designed games outside of the adventure genre is a positive, not a negative, in terms of attracting Kickstarter money.
Oh and about that decade long track record? From 2000 to 2009 Double Fine released two games.
Double Fine's first major game was 2005 and it's 2012 now, so I confess calling it ten years was imprecise. But, really, using the literal decade 2000-2009 just makes you sound desperate and defensive.
And that's sad, because there's no reason Jensen's fans should be defensive. I'm glad Jensen is back making adventures. She put forward some interesting game ideas that many people seem to find appealing, including some who find them more appealing than DFA. You're really not doing Jensen any service by making up criticisms of DFA. What do you expect that to get you?
I'm not making anything up and I have nothing against the DFA (being a backer of that myself). I just get annoyed by unfounded comments and it's seems that in the gaming forums that I go on (admittedly not a huge amount) that have threads about Jane's Kickstarter it's always the same argument and I just thought adventure game players are a bit more savvy and knowledgeable about things like this. I mean it really wasn't that hard to figure out what you were getting.
I do like how defensive the ardent DFA supports get when anyone dares to question a single thing that Schafer or Gilbert does (and I love how Gilbert always gets trotted out when he's at Double Fine to work on his own game and is, from what I've read and seen, mainly a consultant on the DFA).
And the decade long thing, I wasn't referring to the fact that you were imprecise, just that for the first 9 years of Double Fine only two games were made (I do concede that a lot of it wasn't their fault, the publishers didn't help) and it was when they started to make smaller games that got released quickly that they started to look more like a successful(ish) company.
I'm not making anything up and I have nothing against the DFA (being a backer of that myself). I just get annoyed by unfounded comments
I don't think the concerns raised by Blackthorne et al. to which you responded are unfounded, and noting that an entirely different and separate project might have concerns of its own does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that those comments are unfounded.
I do like how defensive the ardent DFA supports get when anyone dares to question a single thing that Schafer or Gilbert does
Takes one to know one, eh? :rolleyes: You're the one who continues bringing up petty concerns about an entirely different and separate project in lieu of addressing the specific issue with Jensen's campaign identified by multiple posters in this thread. Of course that's going to invite a counter-defense and it comes nowhere near what your quoted comment describes.
I just don't really understand how anyone can say Jane's Kickstarter was too ambiguous in comparison to the DFA one. She had three potential game ideas up, with concept art even, whereas DFA just had "we want to make an old-school adventure game" and that's all.
I just don't really understand how anyone can say Jane's Kickstarter was too ambiguous in comparison to the DFA one. She had three potential game ideas up, with concept art even, whereas DFA just had "we want to make an old-school adventure game" and that's all.
That's not really accurate, though. Double Fine's kickstarter campaign was very explicit about what the money was going towards, a traditional, Lucasarts-style point and click graphic adventure from the creators of Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle (among many others) in the same vein as those games. That was explicitly stated as the final end product. They also stated up front that a significant portion of the money would be funding a documentary film of the game-making progress, to be released alongside the game. I also think the significance of the fact that Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert have been an active part of the contemporary gaming industry, with numerous highly regarded current successes under their belts, cannot be understated.
At the very least, one must concede that Jane's initial kickstarter campaign statements had some real wording issues, with at least enough ambiguity to make it unclear whether or not the campaign was a direct violation of Kickstarter terms of service (i.e. funding the foundation of a company as opposed to an individual project.) With Double Fine's project, the company was already well-established, so such confusion was impossible.
I just don't really understand how anyone can say Jane's Kickstarter was too ambiguous in comparison to the DFA one. She had three potential game ideas up, with concept art even, whereas DFA just had "we want to make an old-school adventure game" and that's all.
And I don't really understand how the relative ambiguity of the two projects has even the slightest importance -- the campaigns were never running concurrently so it's not like anybody was faced with making a choice between the two.
All Kickstarter proposed games involve far more unknown aspects than known. For instance, none of the proposals give any idea as to what the gameplay will be like, and to me that's the most important thing. So all you can really get from a comparison is ultimately trivial, eg. Jensen's project is 3 percent less ambiguous than DFA! Is that really the best you can say about her campaign? Please, for the love of Jane, consider how silly raising comparisons with DFA seem to those not already predisposed toward supporting Jensen. You're wasting opportunities to point out all the good things about the games she's identified and Pinkerton's potential in general.
I didn't start the talk (or complaining) about ambiguity. For me, personally, I think Jane's game(s) are going to be awesome and I can't wait to play them. Anyone who isn't sure, I highly recommend checking out her previous games, or even just go watch a Let's Play of them.
Related news, the Two Guys from Andromeda have joined the Kickstarter fray!
Comments
That's ridiculous. The only thing unknown about the Double Fine Kickstarter was the nature of the game. There was no ambiguity about what backers would be getting -- an adventure game designed by Schafer and Gilbert to be released later this year by a studio with a solid decade-long track record for shipping distinctive, quality games. That was sufficient information for 87,000+ people and $3+ million. Jensen doesn't have the same kind of status, and claiming the Double Fine project was ambiguous smells like sour grapes to me.
That said, I believe Jensen was earnest about her plan for Community Supported Gaming. It's just not something that comes across well as a Kickstarter project. I'm not really sure the idea of subscribing to a studio for a fixed time period would ever catch on among gamers, outside of the designer's hardcore fans.
In any event, I'm very glad Jensen found additional sources of funding and hope the development of her studio's game(s) goes much more smoothly than her Kickstarter project.
I'm almost certain Jensen mentioned the Lowe-Mandel project (and possibly the Crowe-Murphy project as well) in one of her videos posted on the Kickstarter page, but I don't have time to verify that now.
No need I will take your word for it.. and its good to hear.
They made it clear--year subscription, one game planned, maybe two. Then, without having hit that 600K, there's already now going to be a second game after all. How is that poor planning or a badly run KS?
It should be a specific project. This whole thing was amorphous from the start - I only pledged once Moebius was chosen as the game, because at that time it became clear to me. Kickstarter isn't just to throw a bunch of other people's money into a pot and see what happens; it's to fund a specific project.
Bt
The point I was making when calling the Double Fine ambiguous was that we had (and still have) no real clue what the game will be about, except that it's an adventure game. At least with Jane Jensen's project she provided three adventure game ideas and the guarantee that one of those will be made if the target was reached.
You say that Jensen doesn't have the same kind of status as Tim Scahfer? Well that's just wrong. OK her current company is unknown because it has just started but no one could argue that she doesn't have a history of making quality adventure games. Sure Schafer has had more well known games made recently than Jensen has but his last adventure game was 14 years ago! Jensen's last, on the other hand, was just two years ago. Oh and about that decade long track record? From 2000 to 2009 Double Fine released two games.
Incidentally, she's also now announced fellow Sierra alum Andy Hoyos is going to be the Art Director of the game: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1005365109/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-2012-2013-csg/posts/222486
I still think the Kickstarter was maybe started a bit too soon. Though I do have some mixed feelings about it, I'm glad that a new adventure game is coming out.
Bt
That's not ambiguity; it's a deliberate unknown and it was part of the appeal and the fun of the DFA Kickstarter, at least to 87,000 of us.
It was one or two of three possible games, then it was a particular game, oh, wait, now it's a particular one of the three games plus a second mystery game... That's ambiguity. And I'm not necessarily saying that's a huge problem in itself, but it's compounded by how she structured the reward tiers. A lower tier was for one game and a higher tier was for a subscription, but until just recently it didn't look like a subscription would be much more than one game.
LOL. It's right there in black and white on the respective Kickstarter pages. Did I mention 87,000?
I didn't argue that Jensen doesn't have a history of making quality adventure games; nor did I imply that her status is akin to chopped liver. It simply isn't the same kind or level of status that Schafer and Gilbert have. The fact that they have designed games outside of the adventure genre is a positive, not a negative, in terms of attracting Kickstarter money.
Double Fine's first major game was 2005 and it's 2012 now, so I confess calling it ten years was imprecise. But, really, using the literal decade 2000-2009 just makes you sound desperate and defensive.
And that's sad, because there's no reason Jensen's fans should be defensive. I'm glad Jensen is back making adventures. She put forward some interesting game ideas that many people seem to find appealing, including some who find them more appealing than DFA. You're really not doing Jensen any service by making up criticisms of DFA. What do you expect that to get you?
I do like how defensive the ardent DFA supports get when anyone dares to question a single thing that Schafer or Gilbert does (and I love how Gilbert always gets trotted out when he's at Double Fine to work on his own game and is, from what I've read and seen, mainly a consultant on the DFA).
And the decade long thing, I wasn't referring to the fact that you were imprecise, just that for the first 9 years of Double Fine only two games were made (I do concede that a lot of it wasn't their fault, the publishers didn't help) and it was when they started to make smaller games that got released quickly that they started to look more like a successful(ish) company.
I don't think the concerns raised by Blackthorne et al. to which you responded are unfounded, and noting that an entirely different and separate project might have concerns of its own does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that those comments are unfounded.
Takes one to know one, eh? :rolleyes: You're the one who continues bringing up petty concerns about an entirely different and separate project in lieu of addressing the specific issue with Jensen's campaign identified by multiple posters in this thread. Of course that's going to invite a counter-defense and it comes nowhere near what your quoted comment describes.
That's not really accurate, though. Double Fine's kickstarter campaign was very explicit about what the money was going towards, a traditional, Lucasarts-style point and click graphic adventure from the creators of Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle (among many others) in the same vein as those games. That was explicitly stated as the final end product. They also stated up front that a significant portion of the money would be funding a documentary film of the game-making progress, to be released alongside the game. I also think the significance of the fact that Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert have been an active part of the contemporary gaming industry, with numerous highly regarded current successes under their belts, cannot be understated.
At the very least, one must concede that Jane's initial kickstarter campaign statements had some real wording issues, with at least enough ambiguity to make it unclear whether or not the campaign was a direct violation of Kickstarter terms of service (i.e. funding the foundation of a company as opposed to an individual project.) With Double Fine's project, the company was already well-established, so such confusion was impossible.
And I don't really understand how the relative ambiguity of the two projects has even the slightest importance -- the campaigns were never running concurrently so it's not like anybody was faced with making a choice between the two.
All Kickstarter proposed games involve far more unknown aspects than known. For instance, none of the proposals give any idea as to what the gameplay will be like, and to me that's the most important thing. So all you can really get from a comparison is ultimately trivial, eg. Jensen's project is 3 percent less ambiguous than DFA! Is that really the best you can say about her campaign? Please, for the love of Jane, consider how silly raising comparisons with DFA seem to those not already predisposed toward supporting Jensen. You're wasting opportunities to point out all the good things about the games she's identified and Pinkerton's potential in general.
Related news, the Two Guys from Andromeda have joined the Kickstarter fray!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spaceventure/two-guys-spaceventure-by-the-creators-of-space-que