Kenny's actions don't seem bull-headed or stupid or cowardly from my point of view. If I thought we could've saved Larry, I would have. He speaks more sense to me than Lilly ever did, especially because of how we were intorduced to Lilly. You only get one first impression, remember. Kenny had my back all the time, even when I shot the girl in 3 and didn't take the supplies in 2. Even when I had directly put the both of us in danger when I shot the girl and drew walkers to our position, he still ran back and helped me.
Although he's my friend, even I noticed his diminishing humanity in 3. When he wanted to leave the girl, and even when I told him my secret. If you helped with Larry, he says "It doesn't matter who we used to be, man." That really got to me. Plus, blaming me for the lack of supplies we brought back...
He's not perfect, and I might have left him after 3 if his family hadn't bit the bullet. But he's been through so much now it would feel criminal to just abandon him with a bunch of strangers and a stupid kid like Ben. I haven't even repaid him for saving me in the pharmacy back in 1 yet...
and i've saved duck and his family more than kenny has, what's your point?
He doesn't seem the sort of guy to hold a grudge over Larry.
Don't help Duck-Kenny saves you
Don't help him kill Larry-Leaves you?
I think if Kenny didn't help you it wasn't because he was bitter, he just didn't want to die and leave his family. Maybe he thought you were a lost cause.
And there's no sure fire proof that Kenny left you just because he was pissed at you, again maybe he thought you were just a goner.
Don't you think he's like thinking way too much?
I don't want him to think but to grow some balls and act. He does act the only time I didn't want him to (meat locker scene).
As Rock114 said his humanity diminishes by the minute.
Don't you think he's like thinking way too much?
I don't want him to think but to grow some balls and act. He does act the only time I didn't want him to (meat locker scene).
As Rock114 said his humanity diminishes by the minute.
Maybe he was the only one thinking clearly in the locker. I already wrote about what danger Larry was, how he could have killed everyone. And he saved Lee in ep 1 and charged a man with a gun in ep 2. I think he has balls AND a brain.
My point is Kenny isn't some superhero, he is willing to leave people who need his help sometimes, to save himself and his family. That's probably why he lived so long. It's not like he bolted either. He is just a normal man and a good one at that.
Also I see nothing that tells me Kenny is some evil douche. For example if you see your friend is in a burning house, and you don't rush in, does that make you evil? What if he isn't even your friend? That was the situation with Kenny.
I was trying to revive Larry. It was my frickkin call, he shouldn't have interfered. Lilly and I took the risk, if someone was to be bitten, it would've been us.
He doesn't charge the man with the gun if I do not help him kill Larry! Why? I suddenly became a monster for not siding with him one single time?
I think it's because he's so ashamed of himself for what he has done that he wants me gone for good. He knows Lee's a better man than him that's why he left me under the door and considered leaving without me.
With him it's a constant battle between wanting to get rid of me and realizing that I'm the best chance for survival his family has.
How about I say Fuck lilly? No offense to the fans, Of course. But Kenny Is way more cooler Imho, He stands up for the group, While Lilly flees like a coward.
My opinion, Please don't hate on this.
I was trying to revive Larry. It was my frickkin call, he shouldn't have interfered. Lilly and I took the risk, if someone was to be bitten, it would've been us.
He doesn't charge the man with the gun if I do not help him kill Larry! Why? I suddenly became a monster for not siding with him one single time?
I think it's because he's so ashamed of himself for what he has done that he wants me gone for good. He knows Lee's a better man than him that's why he left me under the door and considered leaving without me.
With him it's a constant battle between wanting to get rid of me and realizing that I'm the best chance for survival his family has.
With that call, you gamble with the lives of his family. Larry may not just bite you, may just devour everyone in the room. And what if you don't find a way out in time? Then Lee/Lilly turns and everyone dies. Kenny isn't the sort of guy to just watch you make the wrong decision, he will act.
And again, Kenny watching you fight didn't happen for me, so I don't really care. But he needed your help, to make the right choice, to save everyone. You left him to shoulder the guilt alone. He is ofc angry with you. But Lilly left me to die, so I can't comment. :P
Also I believe Kenny is a good man who puts family and himself first, and I honestly can't blame him. Its the same for Lee and Clem. I do think Kenny actually likes Lee, because he tells him how to work the train. A man who hated him wouldn't do that.
With that call, you gamble with the lives of his family. Larry may not just bite you, may just devour everyone in the room. And what if you don't find a way out in time? Then Lee/Lilly turns and everyone dies. Kenny isn't the sort of guy to just watch you make the wrong decision, he will act.
And again, Kenny watching you fight didn't happen for me, so I don't really care. But he needed your help, to make the right choice, to save everyone. You left him to shoulder the guilt alone. He is ofc angry with you. But Lilly left me to die, so I can't comment. :P
Also I believe Kenny is a good man who puts family and himself first, and I honestly can't blame him. Its the same for Lee and Clem. I do think Kenny actually likes Lee, because he tells him how to work the train. A man who hated him wouldn't do that.
I will never agree that killing Larry was the right call. If we can make exception for Duck, we can make one for Larry. I didn't kill Larry and I tolerated Duck around even though I knew he was doomed. Despite the fact that Kenny left me far too many times, I still offered to finish Duck. This is my moral code at least. I also killed the girl at the beginning of ep 3 because that was the right selfless thing to do. That's why makes us different from the bandits for example.
I suggest you play a Pro-Lilly playthrough. It might open your eyes as to what man Kenny really is. Even better, play pro Kenny until the meat locker moment and then switch to Lilly!
I will never agree that killing Larry was the right call. If we can make exception for Duck, we can make one for Larry. I didn't kill Larry and I tolerated Duck around even though I knew he was doomed. Despite the fact that Kenny left me far too many times, I still offered to finish Duck. This is my moral code at least. I also killed the girl at the beginning of ep 3 because that was the right selfless thing to do. That's why makes us different from the bandits for example.
I suggest you play a Pro-Lilly playthrough. It might open your eyes as to what man Kenny really is. Even better, play pro Kenny until the meat locker moment and then switch to Lilly!
After what she did to Carely, I couldnt do it. I'm so bitter I would treat Lilly badly, so sorry. :P
Also the situations between Larry and Duck are completely different to me. Several factors are different like how Duck is small, we aren't trapped in a small place, and we have weapons and Duck hadn't died yet so he had time to convince Kenny. And I'm simply not heartless enough to kill Duck without Kennys permission, and since the situation was different . My Lee simply thought it was best for everyone to kill Larry. Duck on the other hand wasn't as much as a threat to the whole group.
With that call, you gamble with the lives of his family.
but some how you still miss the connection between that and letting duck stay in the rv or train. it was more likely that duck would kill everyone on the train
(which happens if you don't get kenny to stop the train)
After what she did to Carely, I couldnt do it. I'm so bitter I would treat Lilly badly, so sorry. :P
Also the situations between Larry and Duck are completely different to me. Several factors are different like how Duck is small, we aren't trapped in a small place, and we have weapons and Duck hadn't died yet so he had time to convince Kenny. And I'm simply not heartless enough to kill Duck without Kennys permission, and since the situation was different . My Lee simply thought it was best for everyone to kill Larry. Duck on the other hand wasn't as much as a threat to the whole group.
kenny caused lilly to become unhinged to begin with. you're "sisterofshane" rationale is just like kennys. i'm surprised you haven't said "it was possible he wasn't infected"
it's okay to kill larry w/o lillys permission, but it's not kill duck w/o their permission when it's 100% certain he'll become a zombie. i really wish TTG would have let me call kenny out on his hypocrisy -- or better yet, lilly should have shot duck instead of carly. that should have been the boiling point with the group, not the bandit situation
Love when I'm being called out by name... LOL! I said I was done here but I guess I'm back by popular demand!
"Kenny destroyed this group". Personally, I think Lilly could shoulder part of the blame on this one as well. The situation that we had was two VERY strong personalities, each with a different plan, butting heads on every issue. I think Kenny had every right to be upset with her, because it was ultimately her selfishness regarding her father (and the need for his medicine) that kept them at the motor inn much longer than they should have been. Would she ever have suggested that they stay in the face of starvation if it wasn't for the pharmacy? I don't think so. Personally, I think Kenny was right that we needed to at least CONSIDER leaving the motor inn. Had we left BEFORE we started to become desperate for food, we would not have ever made it to the St. John's meat locker and Larry would (probably) not be dead now, would he?
"He was very quick to eliminate the threat but when it came to Duck HE SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOURS." What we are talking about here are two VERY different situations. Duck being bitten did not make him an immediate threat to everyone's safety. Irene had been bitten - she was VERY sick. But I think everyone would agree that she didn't need to be killed IMMEDIATELY. Back in the drug store, many people argued that Duck did not need to be immediately killed as Larry was suggesting (many people here have said the same thing, you yourself, Yami, didn't change your mind until Kenny ticked you off, and you went back through to retroactively change your decisions!). Even as you sit, ready to pull the trigger, you can realize that Duck is of actually little threat to the rest of the group. I've said it before - if I had the TIME to let Lilly grieve, I would have. The difference is that, in Larry's situation, there would have NEVER been enough time to grieve and let her make the decision. Katjaa and Kenny had much more time to reflect and say goodbye, and you CAN convince Kenny that it needs to happen. (I don't think that Lilly would have ever come to terms with the fact that Larry was as good as dead).
"It was sad to see Lily snap like that but I guess everybody pushed her." Nobody more so than her father. Let me explain - Lilly had a HUGE dependency on her father. I think a lot of what she did was to gain his approval (just look at the way she beams when Larry talks about her having "more balls"). In the end, though, he never let her BE HER OWN PERSON. If she ever said something contrary to what he wanted, he would just shout over her. He always pushed the "Us vs. them" mentality, even when it was clearly doing more harm than good. He made it impossible for her to compromise on issues, or maybe even see the issues clearly (his heart condition was more important to her than finding food, for example). He pretty much set her up to fail in the event of his death. Speaking as a mother, the single MOST important factor to me, in raising my child, is for her to be able to LIVE ON without me. I want her to be strong and independent, and to have a good life not handicapped by the need to have me around. Losing a parent is something that she must be able to live through, no matter how sudden, terrible, or traumatic my death may be. Lilly was INCAPABLE of moving on. Yes, we should feel bad for her and empathize with her, but the scene in the meat locker is only one small FRACTION to use to blame.
"In the end she stood for Ben who she hardly knew and once again ignored a very bad situation where our entire group almost got obliterated." I believe Carley/Doug were in the right here. Lilly has her suspicions, but never goes beyond "He's the new Guy!" in her argument. She then supercedes the wishes and authority of everyone else in the group (let's be honest - it is NOT healthy to give one person the power to decide who lives and who dies - I think that is the heart of the argument behind why everyone is so mad at Kenny after the meat locker, no?) by trying to kill Ben. To be frank, what Ben did was wrong, but did it DESERVE death? Kenny and Katjaa were about the only one's with the right to decide Ben's fate, with his actions being more or less responsible for the death of their son. To frame the argument in a different way, should Lee be held responsible for mark and Larry's death if he suggested that they should go to the dairy? If he should, did the group then have the obligation to KILL Lee for his complicity (either direct or indirect) in these deaths?
LOL - WOW that is long! I guess tldr; I disagree with you Yami:p! I think I'll leave it at that for tonight!
We're back in my favourite thread Nice.
Kenny got what he deserved. It was sad for Katjaa though. Even Duck grew on me, with him taking the mantle of Robin and letting me Batman. That was cute
Kenny destroyed this group. It's all a chain reaction from his stupid actions in the meat locker. He was very quick to eliminate the threat but when it came to Duck HE SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOURS. He didn't hurry and drop a salt lick on his head, right? He chickened out when it was someone he loved at stake.
Have anything to say about that Sisterofshane? I'm eagerly anticipating your comments in this thread. Please PM me when you've responded :P
It may sound pretty odd but I'm still a supporter for team Lily.
Kenny abandoned me like too many times in episode 3 and once again was a irrational prick. He wanted to actually leave Lily in the Hotel just because he killed her father and hated himself. I mean... wtf.
It was sad to see Lily snap like that but I guess everybody pushed her. Carley should've been there for her instead of being all "on everybody's good side". Her flirting with Lee didn't help either I guess. In the end she stood for Ben who she hardly knew and once again ignored a very bad situation where our entire group almost got obliterated.
I'm actually more saddened by Lily leaving me than Carley dying. Would've been cool to actually invite me in her room instead of playing with me like a typical girl.
kenny caused lilly to become unhinged to begin with. you're "sisterofshane" rationale is just like kennys. i'm surprised you haven't said "it was possible he wasn't infected"
it's okay to kill larry w/o lillys permission, but it's not kill duck w/o their permission when it's 100% certain he'll become a zombie. i really wish TTG would have let me call kenny out on his hypocrisy -- or better yet, lilly should have shot duck instead of carly. that should have been the boiling point with the group, not the bandit situation
Insults unnecessary please! I don't bad mouth you on other threads, I would appreciate not being reduced to the butt of a joke in here simply because you disagree.:mad:
What about "immediate" threat do you not get? Were you also upset that you did not get to kill Irene the second you realized she was bit? Duck has to DIE first to become a walker - his bite was not an instantaneous death, and Larry was pretty much dead when he hit the floor(several EMT's have come on the forums to agree with this assessment!).
Besides, let's TRULY reverse the situations. Let's say that Duck had dropped unconscious right in front of us. He wasn't breathing, and CPR was not reviving him in a 2-3 minute period. Guess what? I would have suggested that we destroy Duck's brain (I think Lilly and Larry would have too, and would have given Kenny and Katjaa less of the benefit of the doubt than I did). If Larry had been bit by a Walker, I would have let Lilly stay with Larry until he was on the brink of death, just like Duck had been. I would have taken the time to convince her that it needed to be done if she was in denial. I would have then offered to take the shot to spare Lilly the trauma of having to kill her father. So now, where is the hypocrisy? As for Kenny, both he and Katjaa come to conclusion that Duck needs to be killed - in fact, it is Katjaa herself that gets Kenny to concede that it was time. Lilly would have NEVER come to that conclusion in time to stop Larry from becoming a walker - there just wasn't enough time to make that decision. Both Larry and Duck were taken care of in an appropriate manner and time frame - just before they became dangerous to anyone else, and when they were completely unaware of what was taking place. I think that both of them got a tragic, but merciful end, considering the circumstances and the reality of the post apocalyptic world (unlike poor Mark, or David the teacher, living out their last moments in pain and terror!).
Lilly would have become unhinged no matter how her Father met his death. She was incapable of moving on. Plenty of people witness far more traumatic events and deal with them in healthy ways (I would take Kenny's reactions to Duck and Katjaa's death to be WAY more healthy than Lilly's had been!).
Insults unnecessary please! I don't bad mouth you on other threads, I would appreciate not being reduced to the butt of a joke in here simply because you disagree.:mad:
What about "immediate" threat do you not get? Were you also upset that you did not get to kill Irene the second you realized she was bit? Duck has to DIE first to become a walker - his bite was not an instantaneous death, and Larry was pretty much dead when he hit the floor(several EMT's have come on the forums to agree with this assessment!).
Besides, let's TRULY reverse the situations. Let's say that Duck had dropped unconscious right in front of us. He wasn't breathing, and CPR was not reviving him in a 2-3 minute period. Guess what? I would have suggested that we destroy Duck's brain (I think Lilly and Larry would have too, and would have given Kenny and Katjaa less of the benefit of the doubt than I did). If Larry had been bit by a Walker, I would have let Lilly stay with Larry until he was on the brink of death, just like Duck had been. I would have taken the time to convince her that it needed to be done if she was in denial. I would have then offered to take the shot to spare Lilly the trauma of having to kill her father. So now, where is the hypocrisy? As for Kenny, both he and Katjaa come to conclusion that Duck needs to be killed - in fact, it is Katjaa herself that gets Kenny to concede that it was time. Lilly would have NEVER come to that conclusion in time to stop Larry from becoming a walker - there just wasn't enough time to make that decision. Both Larry and Duck were taken care of in an appropriate manner and time frame - just before they became dangerous to anyone else, and when they were completely unaware of what was taking place. I think that both of them got a tragic, but merciful end, considering the circumstances and the reality of the post apocalyptic world (unlike poor Mark, or David the teacher, living out their last moments in pain and terror!).
Lilly would have become unhinged no matter how her Father met his death. She was incapable of moving on. Plenty of people witness far more traumatic events and deal with them in healthy ways (I would take Kenny's reactions to Duck and Katjaa's death to be WAY more healthy than Lilly's had been!).
you do realize duck kills everyone in the cargo hold in an alternative ending, right? he was most definitely an immediate threat. more so than larry in the meat locker.
like i've said before. all the group needed was a few seconds to confirm if larry would live or become a zombie. meanwhile, we know for 100% fact that duck will turn but he's in the RV while we sleep? i wouldn't give kenny crap if he killed duck immediately after finding out he was bitten. but he played it pretty loose with the group when it was his kid.
you do realize duck kills everyone in the cargo hold in an alternative ending, right? he was most definitely an immediate threat. more so than larry in the meat locker.
like i've said before. all the group needed was a few seconds to confirm if larry would live or become a zombie. meanwhile, we know for 100% fact that duck will turn but he's in the RV while we sleep? i wouldn't give kenny crap if he killed duck immediately after finding out he was bitten. but he played it pretty loose with the group when it was his kid.
Only if Lee does absolutely NOTHING. Besides, I never take much stock in any situation that ends in an immediate "game over, rewind". It means that it was really never meant to happen that way (because really, who just stops playing instead of reloading and trying again?).
And no, a few extra seconds of CPR would not have brought Larry back from death. Also, we know from experience that a single walker bite does not immediately kill, and Kenny and Katjaa do the right thing by telling Lee that he had been bit. And in the end, they both come to the conclusion that Duck should be killed. I certainly don't think they played any more "loose" than Lilly did in the meat locker when it was becoming almost absolutely certain that her CPR was not bringing back her Dad.
Love when I'm being called out by name... LOL! I said I was done here but I guess I'm back by popular demand!
Man, was there a fallout that I didn't see? Don't know why the hate, but from me, I think you're alright.
In any case, while I may be an initial supporter of Lilly, I have since emphatized with Kenny after Episode 3.
Despite all his flaws and shortcomings, he has only been doing what is best for his family. Lilly snapped when her dad died and murdered someone. Kenny didn't. So, more respect to the man. He's an asshole at times, but in Episode 3, I feel for him.
Love when I'm being called out by name... LOL! I said I was done here but I guess I'm back by popular demand!
"Kenny destroyed this group". Personally, I think Lilly could shoulder part of the blame on this one as well. The situation that we had was two VERY strong personalities, each with a different plan, butting heads on every issue. I think Kenny had every right to be upset with her, because it was ultimately her selfishness regarding her father (and the need for his medicine) that kept them at the motor inn much longer than they should have been. Would she ever have suggested that they stay in the face of starvation if it wasn't for the pharmacy? I don't think so. Personally, I think Kenny was right that we needed to at least CONSIDER leaving the motor inn. Had we left BEFORE we started to become desperate for food, we would not have ever made it to the St. John's meat locker and Larry would (probably) not be dead now, would he?
"He was very quick to eliminate the threat but when it came to Duck HE SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOURS." What we are talking about here are two VERY different situations. Duck being bitten did not make him an immediate threat to everyone's safety. Irene had been bitten - she was VERY sick. But I think everyone would agree that she didn't need to be killed IMMEDIATELY. Back in the drug store, many people argued that Duck did not need to be immediately killed as Larry was suggesting (many people here have said the same thing, you yourself, Yami, didn't change your mind until Kenny ticked you off, and you went back through to retroactively change your decisions!). Even as you sit, ready to pull the trigger, you can realize that Duck is of actually little threat to the rest of the group. I've said it before - if I had the TIME to let Lilly grieve, I would have. The difference is that, in Larry's situation, there would have NEVER been enough time to grieve and let her make the decision. Katjaa and Kenny had much more time to reflect and say goodbye, and you CAN convince Kenny that it needs to happen. (I don't think that Lilly would have ever come to terms with the fact that Larry was as good as dead).
"It was sad to see Lily snap like that but I guess everybody pushed her." Nobody more so than her father. Let me explain - Lilly had a HUGE dependency on her father. I think a lot of what she did was to gain his approval (just look at the way she beams when Larry talks about her having "more balls"). In the end, though, he never let her BE HER OWN PERSON. If she ever said something contrary to what he wanted, he would just shout over her. He always pushed the "Us vs. them" mentality, even when it was clearly doing more harm than good. He made it impossible for her to compromise on issues, or maybe even see the issues clearly (his heart condition was more important to her than finding food, for example). He pretty much set her up to fail in the event of his death. Speaking as a mother, the single MOST important factor to me, in raising my child, is for her to be able to LIVE ON without me. I want her to be strong and independent, and to have a good life not handicapped by the need to have me around. Losing a parent is something that she must be able to live through, no matter how sudden, terrible, or traumatic my death may be. Lilly was INCAPABLE of moving on. Yes, we should feel bad for her and empathize with her, but the scene in the meat locker is only one small FRACTION to use to blame.
"In the end she stood for Ben who she hardly knew and once again ignored a very bad situation where our entire group almost got obliterated." I believe Carley/Doug were in the right here. Lilly has her suspicions, but never goes beyond "He's the new Guy!" in her argument. She then supercedes the wishes and authority of everyone else in the group (let's be honest - it is NOT healthy to give one person the power to decide who lives and who dies - I think that is the heart of the argument behind why everyone is so mad at Kenny after the meat locker, no?) by trying to kill Ben. To be frank, what Ben did was wrong, but did it DESERVE death? Kenny and Katjaa were about the only one's with the right to decide Ben's fate, with his actions being more or less responsible for the death of their son. To frame the argument in a different way, should Lee be held responsible for mark and Larry's death if he suggested that they should go to the dairy? If he should, did the group then have the obligation to KILL Lee for his complicity (either direct or indirect) in these deaths?
LOL - WOW that is long! I guess tldr; I disagree with you Yami:p! I think I'll leave it at that for tonight!
I'm glad to see you back sisterofshane, hope you stick around. Now let's get to work!
Regarding your first paragraph I would see that Kenny did not have any right to be upset with her. If he was to blame for thinking about her, what do we say about him? She cared about her father, her cared about his family, Lee cared about Clem. Everybody had a lot to lose and yes I agree that it was difficult to starve but shooting in the blind... that's not always the option. They could've turned out worse. Let's not also forget the fact that Kenny somehow made it look as if the RV was his own and not the group's. How could anyone know that Kenny wouldn't throw you out if something bad happens and he needs to choose between his family and you. He had already shown that there is no limit to the dangers he is willing to impose on the group if his family is on the line. I personally wouldn't have been comfortable leaving with any of those people.
Also we did consider leaving, but my Lee sided with Lilly and thus began the endless tirade of "You never agree with me. You have to back me up on this, Lee"
Now you're wrong about Duck. When he was bitten he could've died and turned any minute. Nobody knew for sure. There was even a situation where the only people around Duck were Clem, Katjaa and Ben. Do we really think that Ben could've protect them. He would probably panic and let them die.
I don't know if you've seen this clip, but if you do not make Kenny stop the train this is what happens - go to 2:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_E9v68mKcNow I'm sure that his is put there for a reason. It illustrates how dangerous Duck was! It was unnecessary threat that that we all accepted. I accepted it as well and told them to take their time. Now that's something Kenny would never do.
About Duck in the drugstore and did give him the benefit of the doubt and later in ep 3 I did give Katjaa time to say goodbye. It was dangerous but after what Kenny did to Lilly I understood it was necessary. Better risk someone being bitten than deprive them of the chance to say goodbye.
Kenny did that with Lilly and we saw how that turned out. Even after episode 3 I would still say that what Kenny did cost this group everything. He should've let us finish the CPR because unlike Duck, Larry had a chance, no matter how small it was. Remember what Glenn said in episode 1, we need to have hope else what's the difference.
In my opinion if Kenny fucked up in episode 2, he did it twice worse in ep. 3. First of all, instead of trying to apologize to Lilly and explain her that what he had to do was necessary and his family needed him and they were in a confined space, what does he do? He start blaming my Lee for not letting that poor girl at ep. 3 suffer. Once again he tries to justify his diminishing humanity and he's the only one to look at it that way! Not Carley/Doug, not Katjaa, nobody! If you didn't kill her, he's even worse! He's proud of what Lee did, he brags about it. "You know what happened today? Our Lee, did the right thing today, he let a girl get eaten today so we can loot the place.!"
Do you seriously still justify his behaviour? I know that apparently you're a fan of Shane but... at least Shane has the decency not to brag about what he did to Otis.
So instead of trying to make peace with Lilly, because this group needs her whether he realizes it or not, he's constantly pushing her.
When the bandits attacked it was Lilly that came back. She didn't have to, but she did it. How did Kenny respond to that "Leave the bitch behind, there's no time! C'mon, Lee, leave Lilly and go" .
In my eyes this is too much betrayal from your own group. If this happened to me I would not care about those people at all.
Now about the Carley/Doug situation. Lilly already felt betrayed far too many times. She's the one steal dealing with the organization shit and here I can give credit to Kenny and Lee for risking their skins and going hunting. Still it's even more apparent than in ep.2 that she's the leader that deals with the hard stuff. Everybody's voicing their complains but nobody wants to do the hard stuff. I must say I was really surprised to see her doing that in ep.3. I thought she would've given up and somebody else would step in. I guess I was wrong to think that Carley or Katjaa would volunteer to take such responsibility. Katjaa is busy looking if Duck is not gonna kill himself and calming that Kenny. Even his wife realized that his husband is changing for the worse. Seriously, sisterofshane, how can you still defent him?
Now, Carley! The most useless character in the camp. I thought she would develop somehow but nah... Her being a good shot is a skill usually taken for granted in TWD. Most people are able to shoot guys because they have to. Besides that she doesn't do anything. She never takes a side, she never does anything. If you have Doug in the game, he'll be fixing the wall. If you have Carley... she will be standing on the balcony looking at the sunset.... Even to me and I liked her until she died, she look suspicious.
In the scene where Lilly tries to convince us it was her I was almost positive it got to be her. It was either her or Ben. It couldn't have been the kids and Katjaa and Kenny had too much to lose. I couldn't have been Lilly because she brought it to my attention. It was either Ben or Carley.
If it was Ben, then Carley should've said it wasn't her and it must've been Ben. Apparently I underestimated her willingness to appear the good girl in everybody's eyes. She knew it had to be Ben, yet she defended him in order to make Lilly the bad one. I was pretty pissed that there was a traitor amongst us. It cost us our home and supplies, everything SOME of us had been working really hard to built and it almost got us killed! I wouldn't have killed the traitor, but I would've thrown him out! To me trust is the most important thing in a situation like this one. Someone betrayed it and had to be punished. If Carley had done the right thing at least once in her short life expectancy maybe both Ben and her would be alive. Ben would admit it was him and maybe, we would be able to forgive him, although Kenny probably wouldn't (Duck was the victim of that betrayal).
So what did Carley do? She decided to remain the good gal and started talking back to Lilly. If the battery situation wasn't enough to convince me she was a not very smart, this definitely did. The worst thing in that situation was to start talking back directly at Lilly. She should've turned to Lee for support and as Lee is the only person Lilly trusts (in my game at least) she might've calmed down. So Carley bit the dust... I was shocked I admit! And I felt bad... for Lilly. I knew this would finish her and would most likely set us apart. She tried really hard to provide life for all of us, to form a sort of working group and some people never stopped betraying her. She knew that my Lee was disappointed with what she had done because my Lee always tried to do his best to help people. He wouldn't tolerate a murder and even if he did understand her motives and forgive her, she wouldn't forgive herself for betraying the only person that didn't betray her. As I see it betrayal and trust are key themes in my Lilly-Lee relationship. That's why she asked me to run away with her even if she didn't plan to let me go. She wanted to know if Lee could forgive her. If he could, maybe one day she could forgive herself too.
As Kiel555 beautifully said it in another thread, "Regardless, she reconsidered her choice and left without us. It's okay, she left knowing that Lee and Clem cared for her and would rather be with her than with Kenny. That's a good story and a good end to that chapter."
I cannot agree that only Kenny and Katjaa had the right to be angry at the traitor. Everybody lost their homes, their hope and everything they've tried to built for the past week/months. Everybody almost died back there.
Okay, this became a rather long post so this will be for now, we join in later tonight or tomorrow!
*Wall of Text hits you for 1,000,000 points*
You Die. Restart <Y/N>
Hahaha!
NessaT, I think you got it wrong! I was anticipating sisterofshane's return I'm not hating her because of her opinion.
The reason why she was so popular in demand is that she is not easily convinced, defends her opinion and I know/hope that she will read my wall of text. It's not easy to form a good discussion nowadays when most people never return after one argument.
P.S Sisterofshane, I think we brought the forum down with our posts
I sided with Kenny all the time until the meat locker scene with Larry. Now the guys a big dick and basically left me to die under the door with those walkers. It made me change my view on him. I agreed to leave with Lilly and get Clem but she took off in the RV (Had a feeling about that).
To pick out one point though, sure Carely was angry and talked back to Lilly, because she was torturing and bullying Ben, she is not the kind of person to sit and watch that happen. Lilly was trying to have him lynched with no proof. I personally was proud of her when she defended Ben, even if it led to her death.
Still think the Duck situation is different for reasons posted before. And I can't be bothered bashing Lilly ATM.
To pick out one point though, sure Carely was angry and talked back to Lilly, because she was torturing and bullying Ben, she is not the kind of person to sit and watch that happen. Lilly was trying to have him lynched with no proof. I personally was proud of her when she defended Ben, even if it led to her death.
Still think the Duck situation is different for reasons posted before. And I can't be bothered bashing Lilly ATM.
In all honesty, it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. You have history with everyone in there and can pretty much speak on all their behalves except for one. That dirty rat, its the lying and putting the entire group in danger that makes me hate him so much.
In all honesty, it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. You have history with everyone in there and can pretty much speak on all their behalves except for one. That dirty rat, its the lying and putting the entire group in danger that makes me hate him so much.
But there's still no proof? Are you really just going to execute a guy because you think he did it? No good reason it couldn't have been someone else making a deal. Not that I think he deserves to die for a stupid mistake.
Zombie Kenny is Incredibly Awesome? (Lol, saw your user name, your post, and thought of giving Duck a high-5, I just couldn't resist!)
"She cared about her father, her cared about his family, Lee cared about Clem. Everybody had a lot to lose and yes I agree that it was difficult to starve but shooting in the blind... that's not always the option." I think this is argument that got Lilly/Kenny in trouble in the first place, but in my opinion, having access to drug's doesn't matter if you're STARVING to death. I think this would be especially true for Larry - not eating would be very detrimental to a person with a heart condition. Leaving was just not an option in Lilly's mind, however. If the St. John's had never shown up, how long would she have wanted to stay at the motor inn? I believe that she had already pushed it to the brink. To be perfectly fair though, I think this was a short-coming of the group Dynamic in general. Mark, Doug/Carley and Lee (Lee especially!) needed to wrestle a bit of the authoritarian control from both Lilly and Kenny. Lilly should not have had to be the only one to make the unpopular decisions (who gets fed for the day) - Kenny should not have been the only one to question truly bad decisions (staying at the motor inn in the face of starvation). The group is MORE than willing to override Lee when he makes an unpopular choice, the same should hold true for Lilly and Kenny.
"I don't know if you've seen this clip, but if you do not make Kenny stop the train this is what happens - go to 2:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_E9v68mKcNow I'm sure that his is put there for a reason." I already pointed this out to marcu5, but I don't put much stock in any choice that results in an automatic game over. I think the reason tell tale has for FORCING you to take action was to drive the story forward. That doesn't necessarily mean that Duck became dangerous the second he was bitten by the Walker. Dying from an infection and dying from a heart attack are two very different things. I still believe that Larry was much more dangerous Duck was at any given moment in their respective situations. I also told marcu5 this - if the situations were reversed (Duck had heart failure and Larry had been bitten) I would have reacted the same way to the situations, it has nothing to do with any bias toward the people who are in those situations.
Now for the Drug store situation, I don't know what he said if you chose not to shoot the girl - because I shot her. I will play again to see how it turns out to leave her alive. As for the situation with the bandits, I think Lily put us in more danger. I had convinced the bandits to back off in exchange for twice what they were getting before - if it had been me, I would have given them what they wanted, and THEN gotten the heck out of dodge. At least there would have been time to gather what was left as opposed to scrambling under fire leaving EVERYTHING behind. Not to mention the gun shots are what attracted the walkers who overrun the motor inn and bite Duck in the first place. As far as my game, Kenny never says that about her. He says something far more neutral - "We have to go now!" I don't really know what she was doing up there after the initial shot, anyway. I seem to recall taking out the bandits and walkers myself to give the group cover to get to the RV.
"She's the one steal dealing with the organization shit and here I can give credit to Kenny and Lee for risking their skins and going hunting. Still it's even more apparent than in ep.2 that she's the leader that deals with the hard stuff." Are you so sure this is a situation with everyone else refusing to take over, or with Lilly refusing to let go of control? The feeling I got from everyone in the camp was that they were afraid of stepping on Lilly's toes, or that they were afraid that she was going to snap. The feeling I get from Lilly is that she doesn't trust ANYONE anymore, while foisting her responsibilities off onto others so she can sulk in her room (she literally becomes a "back seat" leader, where as she used to have a very active role in the group). I can understand your feeling toward Carley, but I had Doug. Doug is the one who sets up the alarm system - he is the one that comes back for me at the St. John's farm and saves my life when Andy had a gun pointed at me. He also does repair work on the wall. On top of all this, Doug was my friend and supporter. And he dies because Lilly snaps and plays vigilante. Of all the things to hate on, we shouldn't hate on the Doug/Carley decision to save Ben's life - it is clear to me and everyone else that Lilly crossed the line when she pulled her gun out. I PERSONALLY think she crossed the line when she tried to turn the situation into a witch hunt while everyone was still incredibly tense from the escape.
As far as losing their home, one can argue that Ben helped in delaying that inevitable future by placating the bandits. Everyone comments on how "quiet" it had been at the motor inn following the initial altercation. Somehow I think that, without Ben's deal, the bandits would have been far more aggressive toward the group. Seeing as how they benefited from us being able to get supplies (they get a "cut" from Ben, and don't have to risk their lives to walkers by foraging in town), they left us alone. The attack would have happened sooner or later. In my opinion, I would have started planning to leave as soon as I saw Jolene's video. She was personally responsible for diverting the attention from our camp. With her and the St. John's gone, we should have realized that we would have been the next target, and the motor inn was not as safe as it we thought it was.
I doubt anybody else reads these YamiRaziel, but I appreciate that you do!:)
Mark, Doug/Carley and Lee (Lee especially!) needed to wrestle a bit of the authoritarian control from both Lilly and Kenny. Lilly should not have had to be the only one to make the unpopular decisions (who gets fed for the day) - Kenny should not have been the only one to question truly bad decisions (staying at the motor inn in the face of starvation)
Always a pleasure, Sisterofshane.
As I read what happened in your playthrough, I must say mine felt absolutely different.
I agree that to maintain balance Doug/Carley, Mark and Lee should've been more active. At some points it felt as if they didn't care enough. I cannot agree about the bad decision however. When I played ep 2 it didn't feel bad to me. Yeah they were starving but leaving home would've most probably been worse. At this point organizations are being formed like bandit groups and Negan (dunno if it means anything to you. If you haven't read the comic book, DON'T google it). Meaning armed groups are already fighting for territory and supplies. Leaving the only shelter that is at least protected by walkers still feels like a bad idea. In my opinion they should've sent a recon party and try recruiting more people. It seems illogical to recruit people when you're starving but you can't go hunting/looting if there are no people to defend the camp. In the beginning of ep.2 I wouldn't have left the motor inn. They had easy access to meds and shelter. Not having to worry while you sleep is a luxury in this world and everybody needs meds, not only Larry but the kids as well. I never really considered leaving an option. Plus as I said, Kenny was so attached to that RV that it never felt as the groups RV mostly his own. Ironically Lilly stole it
Now, about the video I posted. I cannot agree that it is not important. There was no fighting sequence or anything, so this is not just a death scene that can be ignored. To be honest I didn't even see it in my playthrough. I found out about it in this forum and my interpretation is that it is put there in order to show those that are more curiously how seriously the Duck thread is. There was no need for players to be force, cause most of them never saw that scene anyway. In my opinion Duck could've died and turned in a matter of minute and it was a danger that had to be considered. Not to mention that Lee was running around most of the time and Kenny wasn't there either. Katjaa, Ben and Clem could've probably died (as it is showed in the video) if Duck had turned. It was dangerous and I endured it just to show Kenny that no everyone is like him I was sending him a message! I also felt bad for Katjaa, too, I admit!
As for the situation with the bandits, I think Lily put us in more danger.
Oh, c'mon, don't pin that on Lilly. She did act in the best favour of everybody. She couldn't have heard you, so she taught them a lesson. I was glad to see her come to the rescue after all the bad treatment she received from Kenny. He is indeed an ass in my playthrough. He did ask me to leave her behind "Screw her, Lee. Let her stay!"
It was dangerous and intense moment and I wanted to find the traitor as well. Had Ben admitted it was him, Carley could've been alive. He did not and I do not tolerate betrayals. I looked in some people's video and I saw that if Doug is alive, he fixes the fence. That's really cool, I like Doug. Do you know what Carley does? She stays on the balcony, watching the sunset and waiting for Lee to come upstairs. Then out of the blue instead of helping identify the traitor she starts protecting somebody that must've obviously been guilty. There wasn't anybody else. Not to mention that Ben was on watch so how did exactly those bandits put all our camp on their knees?
However, when she started defending him and accusing Lilly for a moment I thought she was trying to flirt with Lee just to fool me. I thought it was really, really stupid to push Lilly even further. She was never really bright I guess.
I don't really have problem with Lilly blowing her brains out. The group was already rotten and dying in my eyes. Carley really annoyed me with her I'm the good "little, but don't call me that" attitude. I've never really been fond of meek people, as well those that try too hard to be liked. I guess I've always had a thing for strong characters. Lilly was right that the list of people she could trust got shorter every day. I could say the same applied for my Lee. . Lilly and Clem was the only two people I really cared for. Even though Lilly left us I knew why she had to do this. Although.. Duck did grow on me by appointing me for Batman, I give him that!
Now, as for Ben I would say that he screwed up BIG TIME. If he was indeed so worried for his friend, wouldn't it be only natural to ask for my help. In our camp I was the only guy that went to everybody's rescue! What could've he done on his own? Had he done that we could've think of a way to trick the bandits and not only eliminate them but steal their supplies as well.
Sisterofshane, I'm gonna stop here for now cause I'm really tired and I can feel how my thoughts become harder to express in words and literally more detached by the minute.
Thanks for reading my huge chunks of text as well. I appreciate it too
I don't see the need for analyzing Carley's motivations for her behavior at Lily's inquisition. Lily's in the books, a canon character that lives to shoot zombies another day. A character Lee's grown close too needs to die so that we have that emotional experience the publishers want us to have. Carley/Doug was going to die no matter what, that was apparent from the jump. If anything was priming us for that it is the screen shot for Chapter 1, with Lee and Carley looking on at Clem with worry.
But we deal with what's given. I agree w/ sisterofshane, that Ben's deal helped delay the attack, but if you take that to its logical conclusion, they would never have attacked. Even after the supplies ran out, they would have just moved on, unless the bandits turned into cannibals or something.
RE: Carley, the "battery situation" says nothing about her intelligence. We are to assume since she's a paid journalist she at least has a four year degree from some college. I think that was supposed to endear her to us.
But it was all false drama. There's an opportunity for us to draw an inference, through Lee's questioning of Ben that Ben was the guy. Lee didn't have the balls to move on that? Also, why didn't the bandits out Ben when they had the chance? They were there for payback. Why didn't Ben just turn up dead?
I seriously don't understand the whole "Ben was obviously guilty so it's okay"
It's not okay, Lilly's argument was "DURR, he's new" and "HURR, I don't know her parents/always wants to know what we do" Hardly a good reason to kill someone. And Carley would not just stand by to watch Ben get
killed, she is a forceful and good person, she just didn't jam her opinion down our throats.
If everyone took this seriously instead of delaying it, I doubt she would've shot anybody. The situation was that there was a traitor that needed to be dealt with immediately. It was either Carley or Ben. Instead of everybody pulling their efforts to find out who it was, they acted as nothing happened. You do realize that this traitor almost got everybody killed? I myself would be pretty worked-up about something like that, dunno how you would react. Lilly was indeed a bit too overwhelmed with anger and having Ben/Carley not cooperate plus Lee, Doug and Kenny being a bit passive, I guess it really was the tip of the iceberg for her.
Lilly was indeed a bit too overwhelmed with anger and having Ben/Carley not cooperate plus Lee, Doug and Kenny being a bit passive, I guess it really was the tip of the iceberg for her.
Only because she finally understood that circumstances were beyond her control and pulling the trigger was her last impulsive ditch effort at enforcing her will.
Only because she finally understood that circumstances were beyond her control and pulling the trigger was her last impulsive ditch effort at enforcing her will.
What would you have done? Let's imagine Lilly didn't kill Carley/ Doug. How would you have known who was the traitor?
Patience and time. Guilt was already eating at the kid; it was Duck and Katjaa's deaths that pushed him to confess. In fact, he would have confessed immediately ("I'm sorry") if Lilly hadn't started yelling. Scaring him shitless obviously wasn't working and they had other things to worry about.
Patience and time. Guilt was already eating at the kid; it was Duck and Katjaa's deaths that pushed him to confess. In fact, he would have confessed immediately ("I'm sorry") if Lilly hadn't started yelling. Scaring him shitless obviously wasn't working and they had other things to worry about.
You're kinda saying that because you know what happens. They couldn't have known if the traitor meant ill or not. Plus let's remember who were the two characters that were left at the motor inn during the events of ep.2? Carley and Ben! They could've been planning this for a long time, so why would you wait? So they can betray you again or worse?
Comments
and i've saved duck and his family more than kenny has, what's your point?
Although he's my friend, even I noticed his diminishing humanity in 3. When he wanted to leave the girl, and even when I told him my secret. If you helped with Larry, he says "It doesn't matter who we used to be, man." That really got to me. Plus, blaming me for the lack of supplies we brought back...
He's not perfect, and I might have left him after 3 if his family hadn't bit the bullet. But he's been through so much now it would feel criminal to just abandon him with a bunch of strangers and a stupid kid like Ben. I haven't even repaid him for saving me in the pharmacy back in 1 yet...
He doesn't seem the sort of guy to hold a grudge over Larry.
Don't help Duck-Kenny saves you
Don't help him kill Larry-Leaves you?
I think if Kenny didn't help you it wasn't because he was bitter, he just didn't want to die and leave his family. Maybe he thought you were a lost cause.
Right, but Lilly has your back if you decide to help save her dad.
I also noticed that in EP 3 when the door comes down in the store on Lee Kenny won't help you if you made him mad.
Mad about what, leaving?
And there's no sure fire proof that Kenny left you just because he was pissed at you, again maybe he thought you were just a goner.
Don't you think he's like thinking way too much?
I don't want him to think but to grow some balls and act. He does act the only time I didn't want him to (meat locker scene).
As Rock114 said his humanity diminishes by the minute.
Maybe he was the only one thinking clearly in the locker. I already wrote about what danger Larry was, how he could have killed everyone. And he saved Lee in ep 1 and charged a man with a gun in ep 2. I think he has balls AND a brain.
My point is Kenny isn't some superhero, he is willing to leave people who need his help sometimes, to save himself and his family. That's probably why he lived so long. It's not like he bolted either. He is just a normal man and a good one at that.
Also I see nothing that tells me Kenny is some evil douche. For example if you see your friend is in a burning house, and you don't rush in, does that make you evil? What if he isn't even your friend? That was the situation with Kenny.
He doesn't charge the man with the gun if I do not help him kill Larry! Why? I suddenly became a monster for not siding with him one single time?
I think it's because he's so ashamed of himself for what he has done that he wants me gone for good. He knows Lee's a better man than him that's why he left me under the door and considered leaving without me.
With him it's a constant battle between wanting to get rid of me and realizing that I'm the best chance for survival his family has.
How about I say Fuck lilly? No offense to the fans, Of course. But Kenny Is way more cooler Imho, He stands up for the group, While Lilly flees like a coward.
My opinion, Please don't hate on this.
With that call, you gamble with the lives of his family. Larry may not just bite you, may just devour everyone in the room. And what if you don't find a way out in time? Then Lee/Lilly turns and everyone dies. Kenny isn't the sort of guy to just watch you make the wrong decision, he will act.
And again, Kenny watching you fight didn't happen for me, so I don't really care. But he needed your help, to make the right choice, to save everyone. You left him to shoulder the guilt alone. He is ofc angry with you. But Lilly left me to die, so I can't comment. :P
Also I believe Kenny is a good man who puts family and himself first, and I honestly can't blame him. Its the same for Lee and Clem. I do think Kenny actually likes Lee, because he tells him how to work the train. A man who hated him wouldn't do that.
I will never agree that killing Larry was the right call. If we can make exception for Duck, we can make one for Larry. I didn't kill Larry and I tolerated Duck around even though I knew he was doomed. Despite the fact that Kenny left me far too many times, I still offered to finish Duck. This is my moral code at least. I also killed the girl at the beginning of ep 3 because that was the right selfless thing to do. That's why makes us different from the bandits for example.
I suggest you play a Pro-Lilly playthrough. It might open your eyes as to what man Kenny really is. Even better, play pro Kenny until the meat locker moment and then switch to Lilly!
After what she did to Carely, I couldnt do it. I'm so bitter I would treat Lilly badly, so sorry. :P
Also the situations between Larry and Duck are completely different to me. Several factors are different like how Duck is small, we aren't trapped in a small place, and we have weapons and Duck hadn't died yet so he had time to convince Kenny. And I'm simply not heartless enough to kill Duck without Kennys permission, and since the situation was different . My Lee simply thought it was best for everyone to kill Larry. Duck on the other hand wasn't as much as a threat to the whole group.
but some how you still miss the connection between that and letting duck stay in the rv or train. it was more likely that duck would kill everyone on the train
kenny caused lilly to become unhinged to begin with. you're "sisterofshane" rationale is just like kennys. i'm surprised you haven't said "it was possible he wasn't infected"
it's okay to kill larry w/o lillys permission, but it's not kill duck w/o their permission when it's 100% certain he'll become a zombie. i really wish TTG would have let me call kenny out on his hypocrisy -- or better yet, lilly should have shot duck instead of carly. that should have been the boiling point with the group, not the bandit situation
"Kenny destroyed this group". Personally, I think Lilly could shoulder part of the blame on this one as well. The situation that we had was two VERY strong personalities, each with a different plan, butting heads on every issue. I think Kenny had every right to be upset with her, because it was ultimately her selfishness regarding her father (and the need for his medicine) that kept them at the motor inn much longer than they should have been. Would she ever have suggested that they stay in the face of starvation if it wasn't for the pharmacy? I don't think so. Personally, I think Kenny was right that we needed to at least CONSIDER leaving the motor inn. Had we left BEFORE we started to become desperate for food, we would not have ever made it to the St. John's meat locker and Larry would (probably) not be dead now, would he?
"He was very quick to eliminate the threat but when it came to Duck HE SHOWED HIS TRUE COLOURS." What we are talking about here are two VERY different situations. Duck being bitten did not make him an immediate threat to everyone's safety. Irene had been bitten - she was VERY sick. But I think everyone would agree that she didn't need to be killed IMMEDIATELY. Back in the drug store, many people argued that Duck did not need to be immediately killed as Larry was suggesting (many people here have said the same thing, you yourself, Yami, didn't change your mind until Kenny ticked you off, and you went back through to retroactively change your decisions!). Even as you sit, ready to pull the trigger, you can realize that Duck is of actually little threat to the rest of the group. I've said it before - if I had the TIME to let Lilly grieve, I would have. The difference is that, in Larry's situation, there would have NEVER been enough time to grieve and let her make the decision. Katjaa and Kenny had much more time to reflect and say goodbye, and you CAN convince Kenny that it needs to happen. (I don't think that Lilly would have ever come to terms with the fact that Larry was as good as dead).
"It was sad to see Lily snap like that but I guess everybody pushed her." Nobody more so than her father. Let me explain - Lilly had a HUGE dependency on her father. I think a lot of what she did was to gain his approval (just look at the way she beams when Larry talks about her having "more balls"). In the end, though, he never let her BE HER OWN PERSON. If she ever said something contrary to what he wanted, he would just shout over her. He always pushed the "Us vs. them" mentality, even when it was clearly doing more harm than good. He made it impossible for her to compromise on issues, or maybe even see the issues clearly (his heart condition was more important to her than finding food, for example). He pretty much set her up to fail in the event of his death. Speaking as a mother, the single MOST important factor to me, in raising my child, is for her to be able to LIVE ON without me. I want her to be strong and independent, and to have a good life not handicapped by the need to have me around. Losing a parent is something that she must be able to live through, no matter how sudden, terrible, or traumatic my death may be. Lilly was INCAPABLE of moving on. Yes, we should feel bad for her and empathize with her, but the scene in the meat locker is only one small FRACTION to use to blame.
"In the end she stood for Ben who she hardly knew and once again ignored a very bad situation where our entire group almost got obliterated." I believe Carley/Doug were in the right here. Lilly has her suspicions, but never goes beyond "He's the new Guy!" in her argument. She then supercedes the wishes and authority of everyone else in the group (let's be honest - it is NOT healthy to give one person the power to decide who lives and who dies - I think that is the heart of the argument behind why everyone is so mad at Kenny after the meat locker, no?) by trying to kill Ben. To be frank, what Ben did was wrong, but did it DESERVE death? Kenny and Katjaa were about the only one's with the right to decide Ben's fate, with his actions being more or less responsible for the death of their son. To frame the argument in a different way, should Lee be held responsible for mark and Larry's death if he suggested that they should go to the dairy? If he should, did the group then have the obligation to KILL Lee for his complicity (either direct or indirect) in these deaths?
LOL - WOW that is long! I guess tldr; I disagree with you Yami:p! I think I'll leave it at that for tonight!
Insults unnecessary please! I don't bad mouth you on other threads, I would appreciate not being reduced to the butt of a joke in here simply because you disagree.:mad:
What about "immediate" threat do you not get? Were you also upset that you did not get to kill Irene the second you realized she was bit? Duck has to DIE first to become a walker - his bite was not an instantaneous death, and Larry was pretty much dead when he hit the floor(several EMT's have come on the forums to agree with this assessment!).
Besides, let's TRULY reverse the situations. Let's say that Duck had dropped unconscious right in front of us. He wasn't breathing, and CPR was not reviving him in a 2-3 minute period. Guess what? I would have suggested that we destroy Duck's brain (I think Lilly and Larry would have too, and would have given Kenny and Katjaa less of the benefit of the doubt than I did). If Larry had been bit by a Walker, I would have let Lilly stay with Larry until he was on the brink of death, just like Duck had been. I would have taken the time to convince her that it needed to be done if she was in denial. I would have then offered to take the shot to spare Lilly the trauma of having to kill her father. So now, where is the hypocrisy? As for Kenny, both he and Katjaa come to conclusion that Duck needs to be killed - in fact, it is Katjaa herself that gets Kenny to concede that it was time. Lilly would have NEVER come to that conclusion in time to stop Larry from becoming a walker - there just wasn't enough time to make that decision. Both Larry and Duck were taken care of in an appropriate manner and time frame - just before they became dangerous to anyone else, and when they were completely unaware of what was taking place. I think that both of them got a tragic, but merciful end, considering the circumstances and the reality of the post apocalyptic world (unlike poor Mark, or David the teacher, living out their last moments in pain and terror!).
Lilly would have become unhinged no matter how her Father met his death. She was incapable of moving on. Plenty of people witness far more traumatic events and deal with them in healthy ways (I would take Kenny's reactions to Duck and Katjaa's death to be WAY more healthy than Lilly's had been!).
you do realize duck kills everyone in the cargo hold in an alternative ending, right? he was most definitely an immediate threat. more so than larry in the meat locker.
like i've said before. all the group needed was a few seconds to confirm if larry would live or become a zombie. meanwhile, we know for 100% fact that duck will turn but he's in the RV while we sleep? i wouldn't give kenny crap if he killed duck immediately after finding out he was bitten. but he played it pretty loose with the group when it was his kid.
Only if Lee does absolutely NOTHING. Besides, I never take much stock in any situation that ends in an immediate "game over, rewind". It means that it was really never meant to happen that way (because really, who just stops playing instead of reloading and trying again?).
And no, a few extra seconds of CPR would not have brought Larry back from death. Also, we know from experience that a single walker bite does not immediately kill, and Kenny and Katjaa do the right thing by telling Lee that he had been bit. And in the end, they both come to the conclusion that Duck should be killed. I certainly don't think they played any more "loose" than Lilly did in the meat locker when it was becoming almost absolutely certain that her CPR was not bringing back her Dad.
Man, was there a fallout that I didn't see? Don't know why the hate, but from me, I think you're alright.
In any case, while I may be an initial supporter of Lilly, I have since emphatized with Kenny after Episode 3.
Despite all his flaws and shortcomings, he has only been doing what is best for his family. Lilly snapped when her dad died and murdered someone. Kenny didn't. So, more respect to the man. He's an asshole at times, but in Episode 3, I feel for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPHR5FMWh2s - second 0:15 (minimal TDKR spoiler, it's a repetition of the lines in the movie).
I'm glad to see you back sisterofshane, hope you stick around. Now let's get to work!
Regarding your first paragraph I would see that Kenny did not have any right to be upset with her. If he was to blame for thinking about her, what do we say about him? She cared about her father, her cared about his family, Lee cared about Clem. Everybody had a lot to lose and yes I agree that it was difficult to starve but shooting in the blind... that's not always the option. They could've turned out worse. Let's not also forget the fact that Kenny somehow made it look as if the RV was his own and not the group's. How could anyone know that Kenny wouldn't throw you out if something bad happens and he needs to choose between his family and you. He had already shown that there is no limit to the dangers he is willing to impose on the group if his family is on the line. I personally wouldn't have been comfortable leaving with any of those people.
Also we did consider leaving, but my Lee sided with Lilly and thus began the endless tirade of "You never agree with me. You have to back me up on this, Lee"
Now you're wrong about Duck. When he was bitten he could've died and turned any minute. Nobody knew for sure. There was even a situation where the only people around Duck were Clem, Katjaa and Ben. Do we really think that Ben could've protect them. He would probably panic and let them die.
I don't know if you've seen this clip, but if you do not make Kenny stop the train this is what happens - go to 2:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_E9v68mKcNow I'm sure that his is put there for a reason. It illustrates how dangerous Duck was! It was unnecessary threat that that we all accepted. I accepted it as well and told them to take their time. Now that's something Kenny would never do.
About Duck in the drugstore and did give him the benefit of the doubt and later in ep 3 I did give Katjaa time to say goodbye. It was dangerous but after what Kenny did to Lilly I understood it was necessary. Better risk someone being bitten than deprive them of the chance to say goodbye.
Kenny did that with Lilly and we saw how that turned out. Even after episode 3 I would still say that what Kenny did cost this group everything. He should've let us finish the CPR because unlike Duck, Larry had a chance, no matter how small it was. Remember what Glenn said in episode 1, we need to have hope else what's the difference.
In my opinion if Kenny fucked up in episode 2, he did it twice worse in ep. 3. First of all, instead of trying to apologize to Lilly and explain her that what he had to do was necessary and his family needed him and they were in a confined space, what does he do? He start blaming my Lee for not letting that poor girl at ep. 3 suffer. Once again he tries to justify his diminishing humanity and he's the only one to look at it that way! Not Carley/Doug, not Katjaa, nobody! If you didn't kill her, he's even worse! He's proud of what Lee did, he brags about it. "You know what happened today? Our Lee, did the right thing today, he let a girl get eaten today so we can loot the place.!"
Do you seriously still justify his behaviour? I know that apparently you're a fan of Shane but... at least Shane has the decency not to brag about what he did to Otis.
So instead of trying to make peace with Lilly, because this group needs her whether he realizes it or not, he's constantly pushing her.
When the bandits attacked it was Lilly that came back. She didn't have to, but she did it. How did Kenny respond to that "Leave the bitch behind, there's no time! C'mon, Lee, leave Lilly and go" .
In my eyes this is too much betrayal from your own group. If this happened to me I would not care about those people at all.
Now about the Carley/Doug situation. Lilly already felt betrayed far too many times. She's the one steal dealing with the organization shit and here I can give credit to Kenny and Lee for risking their skins and going hunting. Still it's even more apparent than in ep.2 that she's the leader that deals with the hard stuff. Everybody's voicing their complains but nobody wants to do the hard stuff. I must say I was really surprised to see her doing that in ep.3. I thought she would've given up and somebody else would step in. I guess I was wrong to think that Carley or Katjaa would volunteer to take such responsibility. Katjaa is busy looking if Duck is not gonna kill himself and calming that Kenny. Even his wife realized that his husband is changing for the worse. Seriously, sisterofshane, how can you still defent him?
Now, Carley! The most useless character in the camp. I thought she would develop somehow but nah... Her being a good shot is a skill usually taken for granted in TWD. Most people are able to shoot guys because they have to. Besides that she doesn't do anything. She never takes a side, she never does anything. If you have Doug in the game, he'll be fixing the wall. If you have Carley... she will be standing on the balcony looking at the sunset.... Even to me and I liked her until she died, she look suspicious.
In the scene where Lilly tries to convince us it was her I was almost positive it got to be her. It was either her or Ben. It couldn't have been the kids and Katjaa and Kenny had too much to lose. I couldn't have been Lilly because she brought it to my attention. It was either Ben or Carley.
If it was Ben, then Carley should've said it wasn't her and it must've been Ben. Apparently I underestimated her willingness to appear the good girl in everybody's eyes. She knew it had to be Ben, yet she defended him in order to make Lilly the bad one. I was pretty pissed that there was a traitor amongst us. It cost us our home and supplies, everything SOME of us had been working really hard to built and it almost got us killed! I wouldn't have killed the traitor, but I would've thrown him out! To me trust is the most important thing in a situation like this one. Someone betrayed it and had to be punished. If Carley had done the right thing at least once in her short life expectancy maybe both Ben and her would be alive. Ben would admit it was him and maybe, we would be able to forgive him, although Kenny probably wouldn't (Duck was the victim of that betrayal).
So what did Carley do? She decided to remain the good gal and started talking back to Lilly. If the battery situation wasn't enough to convince me she was a not very smart, this definitely did. The worst thing in that situation was to start talking back directly at Lilly. She should've turned to Lee for support and as Lee is the only person Lilly trusts (in my game at least) she might've calmed down. So Carley bit the dust... I was shocked I admit! And I felt bad... for Lilly. I knew this would finish her and would most likely set us apart. She tried really hard to provide life for all of us, to form a sort of working group and some people never stopped betraying her. She knew that my Lee was disappointed with what she had done because my Lee always tried to do his best to help people. He wouldn't tolerate a murder and even if he did understand her motives and forgive her, she wouldn't forgive herself for betraying the only person that didn't betray her. As I see it betrayal and trust are key themes in my Lilly-Lee relationship. That's why she asked me to run away with her even if she didn't plan to let me go. She wanted to know if Lee could forgive her. If he could, maybe one day she could forgive herself too.
As Kiel555 beautifully said it in another thread, "Regardless, she reconsidered her choice and left without us. It's okay, she left knowing that Lee and Clem cared for her and would rather be with her than with Kenny. That's a good story and a good end to that chapter."
I cannot agree that only Kenny and Katjaa had the right to be angry at the traitor. Everybody lost their homes, their hope and everything they've tried to built for the past week/months. Everybody almost died back there.
Okay, this became a rather long post so this will be for now, we join in later tonight or tomorrow!
You Die. Restart <Y/N>
Hahaha!
NessaT, I think you got it wrong! I was anticipating sisterofshane's return I'm not hating her because of her opinion.
The reason why she was so popular in demand is that she is not easily convinced, defends her opinion and I know/hope that she will read my wall of text.
P.S Sisterofshane, I think we brought the forum down with our posts
To pick out one point though, sure Carely was angry and talked back to Lilly, because she was torturing and bullying Ben, she is not the kind of person to sit and watch that happen. Lilly was trying to have him lynched with no proof. I personally was proud of her when she defended Ben, even if it led to her death.
Still think the Duck situation is different for reasons posted before. And I can't be bothered bashing Lilly ATM.
In all honesty, it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. You have history with everyone in there and can pretty much speak on all their behalves except for one. That dirty rat, its the lying and putting the entire group in danger that makes me hate him so much.
But there's still no proof? Are you really just going to execute a guy because you think he did it? No good reason it couldn't have been someone else making a deal. Not that I think he deserves to die for a stupid mistake.
"She cared about her father, her cared about his family, Lee cared about Clem. Everybody had a lot to lose and yes I agree that it was difficult to starve but shooting in the blind... that's not always the option." I think this is argument that got Lilly/Kenny in trouble in the first place, but in my opinion, having access to drug's doesn't matter if you're STARVING to death. I think this would be especially true for Larry - not eating would be very detrimental to a person with a heart condition. Leaving was just not an option in Lilly's mind, however. If the St. John's had never shown up, how long would she have wanted to stay at the motor inn? I believe that she had already pushed it to the brink. To be perfectly fair though, I think this was a short-coming of the group Dynamic in general. Mark, Doug/Carley and Lee (Lee especially!) needed to wrestle a bit of the authoritarian control from both Lilly and Kenny. Lilly should not have had to be the only one to make the unpopular decisions (who gets fed for the day) - Kenny should not have been the only one to question truly bad decisions (staying at the motor inn in the face of starvation). The group is MORE than willing to override Lee when he makes an unpopular choice, the same should hold true for Lilly and Kenny.
"I don't know if you've seen this clip, but if you do not make Kenny stop the train this is what happens - go to 2:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_E9v68mKcNow I'm sure that his is put there for a reason." I already pointed this out to marcu5, but I don't put much stock in any choice that results in an automatic game over. I think the reason tell tale has for FORCING you to take action was to drive the story forward. That doesn't necessarily mean that Duck became dangerous the second he was bitten by the Walker. Dying from an infection and dying from a heart attack are two very different things. I still believe that Larry was much more dangerous Duck was at any given moment in their respective situations. I also told marcu5 this - if the situations were reversed (Duck had heart failure and Larry had been bitten) I would have reacted the same way to the situations, it has nothing to do with any bias toward the people who are in those situations.
Now for the Drug store situation, I don't know what he said if you chose not to shoot the girl - because I shot her. I will play again to see how it turns out to leave her alive. As for the situation with the bandits, I think Lily put us in more danger. I had convinced the bandits to back off in exchange for twice what they were getting before - if it had been me, I would have given them what they wanted, and THEN gotten the heck out of dodge. At least there would have been time to gather what was left as opposed to scrambling under fire leaving EVERYTHING behind. Not to mention the gun shots are what attracted the walkers who overrun the motor inn and bite Duck in the first place. As far as my game, Kenny never says that about her. He says something far more neutral - "We have to go now!" I don't really know what she was doing up there after the initial shot, anyway. I seem to recall taking out the bandits and walkers myself to give the group cover to get to the RV.
"She's the one steal dealing with the organization shit and here I can give credit to Kenny and Lee for risking their skins and going hunting. Still it's even more apparent than in ep.2 that she's the leader that deals with the hard stuff." Are you so sure this is a situation with everyone else refusing to take over, or with Lilly refusing to let go of control? The feeling I got from everyone in the camp was that they were afraid of stepping on Lilly's toes, or that they were afraid that she was going to snap. The feeling I get from Lilly is that she doesn't trust ANYONE anymore, while foisting her responsibilities off onto others so she can sulk in her room (she literally becomes a "back seat" leader, where as she used to have a very active role in the group). I can understand your feeling toward Carley, but I had Doug. Doug is the one who sets up the alarm system - he is the one that comes back for me at the St. John's farm and saves my life when Andy had a gun pointed at me. He also does repair work on the wall. On top of all this, Doug was my friend and supporter. And he dies because Lilly snaps and plays vigilante. Of all the things to hate on, we shouldn't hate on the Doug/Carley decision to save Ben's life - it is clear to me and everyone else that Lilly crossed the line when she pulled her gun out. I PERSONALLY think she crossed the line when she tried to turn the situation into a witch hunt while everyone was still incredibly tense from the escape.
As far as losing their home, one can argue that Ben helped in delaying that inevitable future by placating the bandits. Everyone comments on how "quiet" it had been at the motor inn following the initial altercation. Somehow I think that, without Ben's deal, the bandits would have been far more aggressive toward the group. Seeing as how they benefited from us being able to get supplies (they get a "cut" from Ben, and don't have to risk their lives to walkers by foraging in town), they left us alone. The attack would have happened sooner or later. In my opinion, I would have started planning to leave as soon as I saw Jolene's video. She was personally responsible for diverting the attention from our camp. With her and the St. John's gone, we should have realized that we would have been the next target, and the motor inn was not as safe as it we thought it was.
I doubt anybody else reads these YamiRaziel, but I appreciate that you do!:)
lol thats good
Always a pleasure, Sisterofshane.
As I read what happened in your playthrough, I must say mine felt absolutely different.
I agree that to maintain balance Doug/Carley, Mark and Lee should've been more active. At some points it felt as if they didn't care enough. I cannot agree about the bad decision however. When I played ep 2 it didn't feel bad to me. Yeah they were starving but leaving home would've most probably been worse. At this point organizations are being formed like bandit groups and Negan (dunno if it means anything to you. If you haven't read the comic book, DON'T google it). Meaning armed groups are already fighting for territory and supplies. Leaving the only shelter that is at least protected by walkers still feels like a bad idea. In my opinion they should've sent a recon party and try recruiting more people. It seems illogical to recruit people when you're starving but you can't go hunting/looting if there are no people to defend the camp. In the beginning of ep.2 I wouldn't have left the motor inn. They had easy access to meds and shelter. Not having to worry while you sleep is a luxury in this world and everybody needs meds, not only Larry but the kids as well. I never really considered leaving an option. Plus as I said, Kenny was so attached to that RV that it never felt as the groups RV mostly his own. Ironically Lilly stole it
Now, about the video I posted. I cannot agree that it is not important. There was no fighting sequence or anything, so this is not just a death scene that can be ignored. To be honest I didn't even see it in my playthrough. I found out about it in this forum and my interpretation is that it is put there in order to show those that are more curiously how seriously the Duck thread is. There was no need for players to be force, cause most of them never saw that scene anyway. In my opinion Duck could've died and turned in a matter of minute and it was a danger that had to be considered. Not to mention that Lee was running around most of the time and Kenny wasn't there either. Katjaa, Ben and Clem could've probably died (as it is showed in the video) if Duck had turned. It was dangerous and I endured it just to show Kenny that no everyone is like him
Oh, c'mon, don't pin that on Lilly. She did act in the best favour of everybody. She couldn't have heard you, so she taught them a lesson. I was glad to see her come to the rescue after all the bad treatment she received from Kenny. He is indeed an ass in my playthrough. He did ask me to leave her behind "Screw her, Lee. Let her stay!"
It was dangerous and intense moment and I wanted to find the traitor as well. Had Ben admitted it was him, Carley could've been alive. He did not and I do not tolerate betrayals. I looked in some people's video and I saw that if Doug is alive, he fixes the fence. That's really cool, I like Doug. Do you know what Carley does? She stays on the balcony, watching the sunset and waiting for Lee to come upstairs. Then out of the blue instead of helping identify the traitor she starts protecting somebody that must've obviously been guilty. There wasn't anybody else. Not to mention that Ben was on watch so how did exactly those bandits put all our camp on their knees?
However, when she started defending him and accusing Lilly for a moment I thought she was trying to flirt with Lee just to fool me. I thought it was really, really stupid to push Lilly even further. She was never really bright I guess.
I don't really have problem with Lilly blowing her brains out. The group was already rotten and dying in my eyes. Carley really annoyed me with her I'm the good "little, but don't call me that" attitude. I've never really been fond of meek people, as well those that try too hard to be liked. I guess I've always had a thing for strong characters. Lilly was right that the list of people she could trust got shorter every day. I could say the same applied for my Lee. . Lilly and Clem was the only two people I really cared for. Even though Lilly left us I knew why she had to do this. Although.. Duck did grow on me by appointing me for Batman, I give him that!
Now, as for Ben I would say that he screwed up BIG TIME. If he was indeed so worried for his friend, wouldn't it be only natural to ask for my help. In our camp I was the only guy that went to everybody's rescue! What could've he done on his own? Had he done that we could've think of a way to trick the bandits and not only eliminate them but steal their supplies as well.
Sisterofshane, I'm gonna stop here for now cause I'm really tired and I can feel how my thoughts become harder to express in words and literally more detached by the minute.
Thanks for reading my huge chunks of text as well. I appreciate it too
But we deal with what's given. I agree w/ sisterofshane, that Ben's deal helped delay the attack, but if you take that to its logical conclusion, they would never have attacked. Even after the supplies ran out, they would have just moved on, unless the bandits turned into cannibals or something.
RE: Carley, the "battery situation" says nothing about her intelligence. We are to assume since she's a paid journalist she at least has a four year degree from some college. I think that was supposed to endear her to us.
But it was all false drama. There's an opportunity for us to draw an inference, through Lee's questioning of Ben that Ben was the guy. Lee didn't have the balls to move on that? Also, why didn't the bandits out Ben when they had the chance? They were there for payback. Why didn't Ben just turn up dead?
It's not okay, Lilly's argument was "DURR, he's new" and "HURR, I don't know her parents/always wants to know what we do" Hardly a good reason to kill someone. And Carley would not just stand by to watch Ben get
killed, she is a forceful and good person, she just didn't jam her opinion down our throats.
Only because she finally understood that circumstances were beyond her control and pulling the trigger was her last impulsive ditch effort at enforcing her will.
What would you have done? Let's imagine Lilly didn't kill Carley/ Doug. How would you have known who was the traitor?
You're kinda saying that because you know what happens. They couldn't have known if the traitor meant ill or not. Plus let's remember who were the two characters that were left at the motor inn during the events of ep.2? Carley and Ben! They could've been planning this for a long time, so why would you wait? So they can betray you again or worse?
The kid's first words inside the RV were "I'm sorry" and then Lily started yelling and he turtled.