Larry/Car Dilemma
For the sake of discussion and to satisfy my curiosity, I noticed I was in the minority to help kill Larry.
So if you were in the majority that tried to save Larry, did you end up stealing from the car at the end of the episode?
My take: I decided that the situation in the meat locker required us to kill Larry. Pragmatically, it was the correct choice in order to save as many lives as possible in that locker.
Now moving on to the car full of supplies. Logically we can assume it had not been there that long. Possibly the owner(s) left because of the empty tank. I chose not to steal from the car because I believed it was the right thing to do.
Clementine, who is idealistic and naive in a child's way, expresses it's wrong to steal something that's not yours. In my playthrough since episode one, I tried to be morally consistent. The only time I deviated from that was with Larry.
For those that did not kill Larry because you didn't want murder on your hands and then ended up stealing from the car (possibly ruining the owner's chances of survival), what was your reason? Why act humane towards someone who actively disliked you and tried to kill you but then have no problem possibly putting a stranger's life in jeopardy?
Edit: I'm not here condemning any of your decisions. It might have come off that way so I apologize. I was just curious and wanted serious discussion.
So if you were in the majority that tried to save Larry, did you end up stealing from the car at the end of the episode?
My take: I decided that the situation in the meat locker required us to kill Larry. Pragmatically, it was the correct choice in order to save as many lives as possible in that locker.
Now moving on to the car full of supplies. Logically we can assume it had not been there that long. Possibly the owner(s) left because of the empty tank. I chose not to steal from the car because I believed it was the right thing to do.
Clementine, who is idealistic and naive in a child's way, expresses it's wrong to steal something that's not yours. In my playthrough since episode one, I tried to be morally consistent. The only time I deviated from that was with Larry.
For those that did not kill Larry because you didn't want murder on your hands and then ended up stealing from the car (possibly ruining the owner's chances of survival), what was your reason? Why act humane towards someone who actively disliked you and tried to kill you but then have no problem possibly putting a stranger's life in jeopardy?
Edit: I'm not here condemning any of your decisions. It might have come off that way so I apologize. I was just curious and wanted serious discussion.
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Comments
I sided with Kenny, and looted the car. Morality means nothing if you are dead, and in order to live, I needed Larry to not be a Walker, and I needed to eat.
That Clementine has to have her innocence destroyed is my only regret.
I have no problem with that. Personally I know I wouldn't survive in a zombie apocalypse. I wouldn't want to live in a world with savages who care only to keep themselves alive. The end of the world would probably mean the end of trustworthy individuals.
Yes you can say morality does not matter at the end of the day, but then why would everyone agree it is wrong to eat Mark? If morality does not matter and survival is the main thing to focus on, then none of them would have reacted to them doing that if the St. John's had better explained why it was necessary right? Clearly cannibalism is viewed as "bad" whether it was someone who was close to them or not, so some degree of morality is still present even in a post apocalypse.
I don't know about that. I haven't devolved Lee's character into an animal, yet.
He takes care of Clementine, and tries his hardest to explain his actions to her. He also knows that children take priority over women, who take priority over Men. If we aren't fighting for them to have a future, what are we fighting for?
I try to save everyone I meet. We need to be able to rely upon each other for help and support in this trying time. Hence why eating other people is wrong, even if for survival. If that is what it takes to live, that is when I agree with you and I feel it is better to just not worry about it anymore.
Also, I choose not to judge people on single incidences, especially when we are in testing circumstances. Larry, for example, may be a selfish prick, but I try not to hold it against him. Same with Lily. I always try to view my life through their perspective, and be understanding. I just won't let certain things trump my immediate survival.
It's not so much a savage loss of morality, but "ruthless calculus". Certain things for me will always be off the table (eating people). Some situations allow for a deft touch, and we should always take the moral road when we can. That being said, if you refuse to take the food, and someone's family member dies from lack of it, are they really going to care that you stood by your morals?
The apocalypse is going to press people pretty hard when it comes to the balance between maintaining integrity and surviving. The cold hard truth is that if we want our posterity to ever have a chance of returning to a state of normalcy, we may have to make the hard decisions now.
Well that being said, how would you like it if you left your car for some reason and came back to find it had been completely ransacked? That is the part that makes the decision compelling but not hard for me. We always talk about survival and integrity, but it is always seems easy to make dickish choices until someone makes a dickish choice to you. That is when people present a hypocrisy in themselves (kind of like what happened with Kenny in the meat locker when he is put in Larry's position from episode 1). Do we just say, "No worries man, you just wanted to survive so I can respect that"? You would have to be a very strange person to do that.
I understand self preservation and hard calculus, but there is also forward thinking that must be applied. When you put yourself in the other person's shoes, the choice to screw someone else over is suddenly not so simple.
That said, we still do not know if the person who owned the car was still alive or not yet so that is what makes this discussion kind of fun
As for the car, I took the supplies because while I didn't know what happened to the owners, I knew to a certainty that my group was starving/wounded and likely wouldn't survive much longer without them.
If the supplies belonged to bandits or the owners never came back, then no harm, no foul. Though there's just as much chance that the owners are decent folk and it was morally the wrong thing to do.
Bottom line is, I'm more willing to take that chance in the name of looking after the group and Clem than not. I couldn't live with watching them starve and die because I couldn't make a difficult decision and placed my own moral righteousness above their survival. I'd gladly roll the dice and loot that hoodie than watch Clem shivering in the cold.
Her innocent perspective of right and wrong is beautiful in it's purity, but few things in life are ever that simple. Which is also what makes the dilemmas in this game so effing fantastic.
Well, of course I would feel bad - just like I felt bad that trusting Mark to strangers ultimately led to his death. But I wouldn't be able to deny that it was at least (in part), my fault those things happened. It's what happens when you are unprepared. If you were the owners, however, would you HONESTLY blame whoever took your stuff? (BTW, if they are WATCHING you take it, and they are too afraid to stop you, then they are not very smart. Listening to what was said, it's obvious there are some that don't want to take it. Step out and reveal yourself, and some good might come of a bad situation! You risk starving to death with out it, or being killed by people taking it...risk assessment comes out equal).
I don't advocate behaving like the Bandits - anarchy is NOT a good thing, and in the long run it is not going to help you. Also, if I found the owners, I would do everything in my power to make it up to them (the hoodie you give to Clem might be recognized by someone later - that ought to be fun!).
Are half of your companion nuts?
The car is without gas, open and with the keys in it. You yell for someone and no one answer... The most logical answer is "this car now belongs to no one". The owner is either dead (have you read the comics? This situation reminds me of something) or took how many supplies as possible and left. If he's still alive he should have stayed in the vicinity of the car! Leaving it unguarded (at least write a note!) it's like putting a "serve yourself" sign.
Really aside from the kids (which for them being irrational is reasonable) I was quite amazed by others (wait... I recall just Lilly ranting for it, which is quite hypocritical since she would gladly left people to die eaten alive than take food from a abandoned car...)
Here's a video of "saving" Larry & not looting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-JOIW_yv5M
reason I chose that?
because I know people like Larry I've met people who are known to be disliked by others & they seem normal to me when I talk to them.
even people who are mean to me I just treat them like normal. Lee just got a rep that made it harder to get along with him
If it were not for his heart condition, its possible for Larry to tolerate Lee's presence, maybe not forget his rep but let him be & keep an eye on him just the same.
As for not looting...
I am the servant of Queen Clem, lol
seriously, I'm following what she thinks is right.
even at the farm, I said I must consult with the Ms.
I follow Clem then Kenny, although I chose not to steal from the car, it did nothing to my relationship with Kenny or anyone else, but made me look moral to Clem. The car belongs to the next character to join the group I assume, so starting off on the right foot is a good idea.
Larry was dead, so we didn't murder him. I don't know why saying that wasn't an option. On a side note, why can't I give Doug the walkie talkie to fix? As soon as I found out it was broken I thought of that, so why not Lee?
Even doctors need to confirm they're dead & that they can't do anything before stating the "time of death"
Kenny could had waited standing over the head with that saltlick, lol
j/k
I just wonder if or why can't we get the airconditioning off first shot. Never tried it, was it possible? Did Larry argue over handing over his coins?
btw as for the walkie, I believe u get it repaired in Ep 1...
not sure u can do that in Ep2 if wasn't done in Ep 1
Even if its fixed, they dun have the other (do they?)
Without Clem behind my back, I would loot that car for sure tho. In zombie apokalypse, its dog eat dog / shoot first, ask later.
So I guess Clem is all that is between me and being a selfish asshole. Funny that as I take care of her, she takes care of my karma.
Tried to save Larry ofc. Even though that guy is a prick, I kinda felt sorry for him in this episode ( he lost his wife and pretty much everything ) + I had my nose stuck deep down Lillys fine ass ( come on, she kinda hot.. in that postapokalypse way ).
I can definetly see Kennys point. All he cares about is his family and thats alright. I cant ask anyone to be a fearless, selfless hero.
Lilly seems to me like a "better" person. She can be little bitchy and headstrong at times, but she cares about other people and when shit hits the fan, she can be more reasonable then Kenny, for sure.
I just hope Lilly wont leave us in next episode.. that would suck.
About the car, Clem was right we are not robbers, that car was very recenty and just see and stole everything from others people ? Nah ! Clem was right ! and if you stole you will force she use that hoodie what she not own and dont like it ! Fail of you part !
Not that it mattered much, because the rest of the group ended up stealing the rest anyway, even Lilly, who gave me that bitchy look when I tried looting it at first.
My only regret is having killed one of the brothers (the one trapped in a bear trap) in front of Clementine. Though I did leave the second one to the zombies
To be fair, you dont actually see her in the cutscene. She might be standing on the other side, watching them stealing supplies, just like Lee and Clem did.
The car was abandoned, door open, without gas, keys left in the ignition and no one in shouting distance to hear. I felt it was the best action to take the food and survive. If it was someone else's food why did they choose to leave it in those circumstances? They could have done any of the following: taken the keys, closed the door, moved it to the side or covered the food.
Both choices I made I tried to condone what I did to Clementine. That was the hardest part.
I also killed both brothers, but looking back I could have gone either way.
On the plus side, Kenny is now my best friend and Clem and I have a place in his RV and possibly his boat (I saw Lee and Clem in the RV during the next Ep preview) but on the minus side, Im afraid Lilly is going to put a dagger in my back the first chance she gets, lol.
I forgot, since I chose not to steal from the car in the previous save, I had to steal this time. But at the time I did feel bad about the thought of Clementine going without while everyone else got fed. Im pretty sure the others wouldnt starve her but I wanted her to have the hoodie too. Its just when Clementine throws though dewy doe eyes at you, you dont want her to think badly of you. She probably thinks my second Lee is a monster anyway, since I killed Larry and both brothers in front of her and stole food.
I put a zombie down before it could eat my surrogate daughter, and provided her with food and warmth. Don't see the problem there :P
My moral compass always points toward my family (both in TWDG and real life). If it's the right thing to do for/by my family, it's the right thing to do. No qualms whatsoever. Now had the car had people in it, and the choice had been kill them and take the stuff or leave them and the stuff, I would have left it. The best thing for my family is to not murder innocent people and take away their things in front of my kid lol.
Well...episode 5 spoilers following here so don't click the black box unless you've played through.
It is also actually killing, since Larry was not a walker yet. That was the whole point, kill him so he doesn't turn into one, not wait for him to turn and then kill him.
They may have been necessary to protect your own people, but don't try to change the words to make yourself feel better.
I don't count it so much as stealing because to me it wasn't stealing. (And this is a personal opinion to clarify what I meant, not an argument or a literal definition lol :P) Stealing is something to be done through violence or stealth. I didn't do either. I found a car, still running but abandoned, had reason to believe the person who had left it had died or couldn't make it back, and took what my 'family' needed to survive. Calling it stealing or not doesn't make me feel better - I never felt bad. :P I don't see it as stealing. There's a funny photo I saw once.
There's a caption that says "people stealing" and a caption that says "people surviving". The "stealing" is people leaving a store with various electronics during an obvious disaster, the other is people leaving a store with some food and whatnot during an obvious disaster.
I don't think that it's stealing if it's something you've got to do and it's reasonable to assume that no one will get hurt by your actions. I know that we later find out what we did caused some trouble, but that guys family was going to die relying on him anyway. He'd already lost his son and his wife and daughter thought it'd be safer to strike out on their own rather than be stuck with him.
He should have locked the car. He should have had it turned off. He should have had the boxes covered where you couldn't immediately see what was in it. I would have been much less likely to take it that way. :P
As for Larry, he wasn't breathing. I know that some people are saying if you try to save him he takes a breath, but that could have been anything. (People are still saying Lee takes a breath after Clem shoots him). His heart had stopped, he had stopped breathing, and he was lying on the ground ready to turn at any moment. Like I said, I don't consider it "killing" him. The same way I didn't "kill" Duck, or any of the other zombies in the game. In fact, I "killed" Larry and Duck for the same reason: I respected them enough as human beings to do to them what I would have wanted them to do to me - prevent them from hurting people they cared about.
But I do see your points. If you believe Larry wasn't dead yet, I guess it could be considered murder (I believe he was dead already, however), and if you thought that the car still had an owner, and that the things in it still belonged to someone, then I guess it would be stealing. I assumed that someone got out to take a leak, got attacked or eaten, and never got back in. (At the time I thought - why else would the door be open, the keys be lying there, and the car still be on, than if someone thought they'd be right by the car, and had to run away and couldn't make it back?)
That's an easy one, the car was out of gas. So I assumed whoever was driving left it to go find more gas. I actually thought it was kind of obvious
Well said. Regarding Larry, i thought you were saying it wasn't killing him because he was already a zombie, and that wasn't true.
I helped Kenny in killing Larry, I couldn't take that risk of him turning, especially since none of us had any weapons to defend ourselves if he did turn. I had Clementine in there too, I wasn't going to put her in harms way, I'm sorry, but it needed to be done. Plus, I didn't like Larry anyways, I think it's justified since he decided he was going to leave me for dead at the end of episode 1, Good Riddance, asswipe.
I also decided to steal from the car, coming back from the St. John dairy we were at Stage 1 again, no food and starving. I instantly thought of Clementine and the well being of the group and decided to take the food. I'm sorry but if you're going to leave your station wagon in the middle of the forest with the keys still in the ignition and NOT expect to get stolen from, you're an idiot. It was going to happen anyways, If the group wouldn't have stumbled upon the car, sooner or later, the bandits would have.
All in all, I think I made the right choice.
I stole from the car. I mean, it was turned on, filled with supplies and left on the road. It was reasonable to think it was abandoned.
Too bad there is no option where if I did not help Kenny kill Larry, I could later express regret to earn back some of his loyalty towards me. Honestly, friends cannot always side with each other, because then morality would be compromised (such as killing Larry or dropping Ben).