I didn't side with Larry!

edited July 2012 in The Walking Dead
In Episode 1, in the pharmacy i tried to be civil saying we should reason with Larry but ultimately i sided with Ken in defending Duck. However Ken keeps reminding me how i didn't stand up for him.

Does the game not acknowledge any of the dialog choices after the first one or what? If that's the case that's pretty annoying.

Comments

  • edited July 2012
    I think you're just dealing with a character who *thinks* you didn't side with him because you weren't drastic enough about your intervention. Personally I told Kenny we should beat Larry's ass for fear that Larry would take matters into his own hands. I suppose Kenny is not recollecting what you said exactly, but rather that you were not gung-ho enough about protecting his child. Keep in mind that you can't expect every character to react in the way that you see most fit based on what happened.
  • edited July 2012
    Your probably right, Kenny seems like a smart guy but he can be pretty stupid when it comes to defending his family.

    I've always tried to be diplomatic, hell i stood with him during the fight with Lilly over bringing in new survivors. Although it seems like he's gonna hate me no matter what i do, i hope he at least remembers when i gave his son food.
  • edited July 2012
    The food situation could very well come into play. We've yet to see it affect anything but it did seem to be a relatively important decision.
  • edited July 2012
    Aaaaah, "Reason with him." All the wacky hijinx it gets people into. The problem is the option wasn't "Reason with Larry," but "Reason with Kenny." If you pay attention to what Lee says it's pretty clear that the dialogue choice supports throwing Duck out. It's confused the hell out of a lot of other people. I don't understand why TTG doesn't just release a quickie patch to rename that choice something less obtuse like "Reason with Kenny."

    Reminds me of that time in Alpha Protocol I tried to threaten someone during an interrogation and my character decided to blow the poor girl's brains out. These kinds of massive misunderstandings just aren't acceptable in a story based game.

    I had to replay the game from that point just because I got tired of hearing kenny bring it up two or 3 times in my game. And no, it's not cheating. I'm fine with knowing my choices and living with the results, I'm not fine with choices being ambiguous and leading to Lee saying one thing when you were expecting another.
  • edited July 2012
    @Gennadios, I don't think the option is supposed to be either pro Larry or Kenny.

    Just before the option, KENNY asks Lee (paraphrased) "Lee what do WE do with this guy?". He's clearly looking for Lee's support.

    Lee can then either side with Kenny (kick his ass), side with Larry (I think it says "he's right", not too sure), or you can pick what should be the neutral response ("we reason with him").

    If you pick the "reason" option, Kenny then responds "With the side of an axe, maybe". Why would KENNY be telling you to reason with himself using an axe? It's clear from the narrative that you are attempting to calm Kenny down and reason with Larry, but the plot marker appears that you sided with Larry. It makes no sense.
  • edited July 2012
    @Gennadios, I don't think the option is supposed to be either pro Larry or Kenny.

    Just before the option, KENNY asks Lee (paraphrased) "Lee what do WE do with this guy?". He's clearly looking for Lee's support.

    Lee can then either side with Kenny (kick his ass), side with Larry (I think it says "he's right", not too sure), or you can pick what should be the neutral response ("we reason with him").

    If you pick the "reason" option, Kenny then responds "With the side of an axe, maybe". Why would KENNY be telling you to reason with himself using an axe? It's clear from the narrative that you are attempting to calm Kenny down and reason with Larry, but the plot marker appears that you sided with Larry. It makes no sense.

    Yes, but after the side of an axe line Lee goes on a tirade about how if Duck is bitten they'll have to throw him out and a bunch of other stuff that's pretty much a big FU to Kenny.

    I stand by my statement. With the conversation going the way it did I can understand why Kenny would hold it against you. I just think that particular dialog choice should have made it more clear that you're siding with Larry by choosing it.
  • edited July 2012
    Gennadios wrote: »
    Yes, but after the side of an axe line Lee goes on a tirade about how if Duck is bitten they'll have to throw him out and a bunch of other stuff that's pretty much a big FU to Kenny.

    I stand by my statement. With the conversation going the way it did I can understand why Kenny would hold it against you. I just think that particular dialog choice should have made it more clear that you're siding with Larry by choosing it.

    The whole point is that the plot marker is wrong. You ultimately side with Larry when you decide to allow him to get Duck (just before Clementine discovers the walker in the restroom), not when you tell Kenny to reason with him. So you can pick this option, hit Larry, goad Kenny into hitting Larry, or shout him down, and the game remembers that you wanted to kill Duck. It's flawed.

    It's clear that you are not immediately loyal to Kenny's need to beat the crap out of Larry, not that the option is Lee siding with Larry to kill Duck.
  • edited July 2012
    Look at it from Kenny's point of view, at that point in the conversation you have some grizzled or fart yelling about how your son is bitten and the guy you've known for just a little bit longer telling you that yeah, they're probably going to have to throw Duck out.

    I believe the words Kenny used during the ep2 conversation was "You were ready to throw Duck out..." which is factually true. It doesn't really matter if you decided to do it or not at the last minute. To Kenny, Lee's still a guy who would be willing to do it if it came to that. Maybe not quite as quick or enthusiastic to do it as Larry, but still. It's worth remembering.
  • edited July 2012
    Gennadios wrote: »
    Look at it from Kenny's point of view, at that point in the conversation you have some grizzled or fart yelling about how your son is bitten and the guy you've known for just a little bit longer telling you that yeah, they're probably going to have to throw Duck out.

    I believe the words Kenny used during the ep2 conversation was "You were ready to throw Duck out..." which is factually true. It doesn't really matter if you decided to do it or not at the last minute. To Kenny, Lee's still a guy who would be willing to do it if it came to that. Maybe not quite as quick or enthusiastic to do it as Larry, but still. It's worth remembering.

    Except he tells you immediately afterward that he is grateful that you stood up to Larry, and that you really gave the old man "hell". Also in the meat locker Lee will tell Kenny that he gave Duck the benefit of the doubt, and Kenny will not disagree with that point. Clearly Kenny doesn't immediately take note of the fact that you weren't willing to immediately side with him.

    If that bit of dialogue makes such an impact on Kenny's character, it should have been immediately visible, and referred to, instead of the game allowing Kenny to thank Lee one episode, and jump down his throat in the next, based solely on the meat locker decision.
  • edited July 2012
    I think what TTG was going for was one of those past arguments that turn out OK and for the most part the relationship remains intact, but when things get strained again it's dredged back up again as ammunition by the offending party.

    There were parts where Kenny's dialog made use of the final choice and I think sometime during the swing scene and somewhere else he used the earlier choice.

    Could have been handled a little bit better or with more subtlety, as it stands it just made Kenny seem bipolar.
  • edited July 2012
    Gennadios wrote: »
    I think what TTG was going for was one of those past arguments that turn out OK and for the most part the relationship remains intact, but when things get strained again it's dredged back up again as ammunition by the offending party.

    There were parts where Kenny's dialog made use of the final choice and I think sometime during the swing scene and somewhere else he used the earlier choice.

    Could have been handled a little bit better or with more subtlety, as it stands it just made Kenny seem bipolar.

    I don't mind that Kenny would bring up certain points of dialogue if it was made clear that you attempted to remain neutral by picking the option to reason with Larry. It is like you said, though, right now it feels off, because I can protect Duck, but the game still tells me that I sided with Larry.
  • edited July 2012
    I agree, the reason with him option is not only ambiguous, it's downright flawed. Dev's we need a fix. It screws up the story. I've run through the chapter twice and still been told I "sided with Larry" at the end of it. That's totally *not* what happened at all. It shouldn't be physically attack him to side with Kenny or any other option sides with Larry. It's super slanted and really, it seems like a bug.
  • edited July 2012
    whytewyrm wrote: »
    I agree, the reason with him option is not only ambiguous, it's downright flawed. Dev's we need a fix. It screws up the story. I've run through the chapter twice and still been told I "sided with Larry" at the end of it. That's totally *not* what happened at all. It shouldn't be physically attack him to side with Kenny or any other option sides with Larry. It's super slanted and really, it seems like a bug.

    Yep, totally agree. Please, please Telltale fix this! It is not fun to be misled with an option like this.
  • edited July 2012
    zgamer wrote: »
    Yep, totally agree. Please, please Telltale fix this! It is not fun to be misled with an option like this.

    I agree, that's pretty annoying in the drugstore scene (where you don't have a lot of time to react in the first place).

    In general, often the written lines differ from what Lee is actually saying when you choose them and you end up saying something you didn't actually meant to say.
    Sometimes, it's only a matter of intonation (e.g., I expected Lee to sound a lot more pissed when he tells Andy after returning from the perimeter check that "The electric fence came on!"), sometimes, it's a totally different line and you might achieve the exact opposite of what you were planning to (especially when it's about siding with people in your group).
  • edited July 2012
    Odd, I got sided with Kenny even though I put "reason with Larry". However, my loyalty points toward kenny went up when I chose the "No" option. I also saved his kid and gave the enery bar to them - I never got the "you should have sided with Kenny" remark.
  • edited July 2012
    ^I did all of that too. The first time I saved Herschel's boy first, the second time around I saved Duck. Both times it had me side with Larry. I've only run Chapter 2 once and in that I fed Kenny and Duck too. Kenny accused me in that run of leaving Duck twice, which wasn't true. :)
  • edited July 2012
    think about it from kennys point of view, we just got saved and we enter a room full of people some have guns and the biggest guy in the room says he wants to kill your son,

    kenny looks to his "friends" for their back up, and one of them (lee) is sitting on the fence, he is not on your side its kenny and his family against the whole room, but if he looks to his "friends" and lee says it is absolutely wrong to kill the kid and everyone should shut up about it or get a beating, only then could kenny see that as being on his family's side.

    it makes sense to me that it is "full support or no support" when it comes to family
  • edited July 2012
    There is no "neutral response" when it comes to Kenny and his family. If you don't have his back in a fight against Larry you're not on his side.

    For what it's worth though, the bigger choice that comes at the end of that dialogue with clearly marked "save Duck/throw Duck out" tags seems like the major decision when it comes to figuring out if Kenny likes you or not. Kenny might grumble that one time that you weren't ready to jump to his son's defense and the stat screen might say you sided with Larry, but the loyalty is still there.
  • edited July 2012
    One thing I have noticed with Kenny is that unless you totally support him, you're against him. I don't agree this option should be patched since at least for me, it seems to tie logically in with Kenny's character and future behaviour. Plus one of the things that the developers did say was that no choice would be perfect. Most of us would have probably attempted to defuse the situation but to Kenny this just looked like you were ready to throw Duck out, which is partially true.

    While most of us probably didn't expect to find that Duck was bitten at that point I think it would be hard to deny that if he did turn into a zombie right then and there that we wouldn't have either put him down or throw him out.

    I think the point is that Kenny expects more than what a lot of us players are prepared to give him in the game. I'd say this is an intentional feature, not a flaw in the choices available or plot.
  • edited July 2012
    Marv87 wrote: »
    One thing I have noticed with Kenny is that unless you totally support him, you're against him. I don't agree this option should be patched since at least for me, it seems to tie logically in with Kenny's character and future behaviour. Plus one of the things that the developers did say was that no choice would be perfect. Most of us would have probably attempted to defuse the situation but to Kenny this just looked like you were ready to throw Duck out, which is partially true.

    I seriously disagree, and I think it should be patched. Kenny asks Lee what we should do with Larry, and the game proceeds to give you an option to "reason with him." Lee doesn't attempt to defuse the situation, he turns his back on Kenny and begins to side with Larry if you choose that option, and Kenny WILL remember it and hold that false choice against you.

    The first time I played through my choice was to side with Kenny, but I wanted to keep people calm so I chose to "reason" with Larry. Watching my brother play through it next, he chose reason with him and was equally confused when Lee turned around and tried to reason with Kenny when the choice really did imply to reason with Larry, who was being pretty unreasonable.

    In fact, it's so misleading, I was tricked when I went back to play through it again yesterday! I had to restart the scene because this time I'm going for a bromance with Ken! It wouldn't be too hard to change the option to "Reason with Kenny" and have NO confusion over who you are reasoning with.

    Of course no choice is perfect, but what's the point of having to take sides if you game is going to trick you into siding with one person or the other? This is no game-breaker, but it definitely feels like a writing to game play oversight.
  • edited July 2012
    First of all, I'm totally agree with all of you, guys. I've said this in various threads. It's a game design failure©.

    We should post this at Support Forums. At least they know about the disagreement about this option and hopefully they release some kind of patch or something.

    In the Insider Forum or "Questions for The Walking Dead team" I think they answered about this issue but I don't remember where exactly. If I find this I'll post over here. ;)
  • edited July 2012
    Add me to the list of players frustrated by this outcome. Sure, I opted to "reason with him," because punching an old man in the face seemed a bit rash, but when that failed to defuse the situation, I screamed "No!" called Larry an old fuck and said "it's me before anyone else." Not much room for interpretation there.

    I'm fine with the fact that Kenny might remember it differently than Lee. That's realistic and human. What sucks is when Kenny bitches Lee out in ep 2, you have no option to defend yourself or set the record straight. Lee's response is basically "guilty as charged."

    You should also have the option to dish it right back to Kenny, for shit like
    deciding to attack the brother in the barn with or without you, then leaving it to you while hiding in the stall like a coward!
    I understand that Kenny's behavior in ep 2 is supposed to frustrate the shit out of me, so give me an option to express that in-game!
  • edited July 2012
    I've found it. Read this.

    Here, at the bottom.

    The thing is I've activated the in-game notifications about choices and no matters what you say to Kenny. If you say "Reason with him" notifications will say "You didn't side with Kenny". Later, when you say "No, you are not going to touch anybody" to Larry, notifications says "Kenny will remember your loyalty" :confused:
  • edited July 2012
    The thing that sucks the most is......the scene with Kenny/Larry/Lee is so early in the game that if you want to go back and change it you gotta play most of the game over again!
  • edited July 2012
    ozzmann wrote: »
    The thing that sucks the most is......the scene with Kenny/Larry/Lee is so early in the game that if you want to go back and change it you gotta play most of the game over again!

    Well, yes. Another thing that sucks a lot it's when Kenny say to you in Episode 2 that you wanted to throw Duck out from the drugstore and Lee didn't even defend from that crap, like if that would be true.

    This is the annoying thing, I didn't choose that option!!!!
  • edited July 2012
    It's possible to choose "Reason with him", still side with Kenny, and get his support. However, if you disagree with him at any point he starts to treat you like the plague. I think it's more of a trait than a game bug.
  • edited July 2012
    Galdis wrote: »
    It's possible to choose "reason with him", still side with Kenny, and get his support.

    May be but how?
  • edited July 2012
    Personally, I chose "Reason with him" but everything else was over the fence with Kenny. I even yelled at Larry, confronting him. The outcome does seem out of balance to the choices I took. Now Kenny is saying I let down his boy twice. I had a hard time thinking what the hell was the second time (I chose Chet the first time).

    And another thing, why do the game say I "side with Larry" but Kenny clearly thanks me for helping out with Duck after the fuss with Larry and then, an episode later, he's all mad at Lee for not helping?! There's obviously some kind of dialogue tree mixed up here.
  • edited July 2012
    Mlstrum wrote: »
    Personally, I chose "Reason with him" but everything else was over the fence with Kenny. I even yelled at Larry, confronting him. The outcome does seem out of balance to the choices I took. Now Kenny is saying I let down his boy twice. I had a hard time thinking what the hell was the second time (I chose Chet the first time).

    And another thing, why do the game say I "side with Larry" but Kenny clearly thanks me for helping out with Duck after the fuss with Larry and then, an episode later, he's all mad at Lee for not helping?! There's obviously some kind of dialogue tree mixed up here.

    Me and most people thinks the same.
  • edited July 2012
    Are they going to fix it? because both my friend and I were really confused when Kenny told us we didn't do anything to stop Larry.
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