[SPOILERS] Ep. 3 Carley/Doug... Relax.
Alright alright, I realize that a lot of you are upset about (please go away if you haven't played ep. 3) Carley and Doug. As far as I can tell, only about 101% of you think that what happened in ep. 3 was lazy screenplay. However, I think it'd be better for everyone's sanity if we just try to interpret this differently.
Carley and Doug are cool, but let's face it, they're minor characters. Despite this, they're still not the same character, so stop calling them Carley/Doug. There is at least one big difference I can think of: Carley insists that you share your past with the group. I haven't done my Doug play-through yet but I can't imagine him doing the same because he simply doesn't know about you. I'll rescind this if somebody is willing to correct me here.
Yet still, they are minor characters. They don't have *much* time to develop (well, at least more than Chet, come on people), and they pretty much kick the bucket in identical fashion. Their fate still serves a purpose though. Admit it, your jaw dropped. It was shocking. But more than that, it represents the imminent disintegration of the group.
Most importantly, we should be thinking of what happened to Carley and Doug less in terms of themselves and more in terms of what it means to other, more substantial characters. Without spoiling anything else, Lilly and Ben in particular will be affected depending on how you handle things.
So, no, stop it, don't angrily slam your keyboard against the wall. Go outside for a walk, take a deep breath, admit that I'm right :cool:
Carley and Doug are cool, but let's face it, they're minor characters. Despite this, they're still not the same character, so stop calling them Carley/Doug. There is at least one big difference I can think of: Carley insists that you share your past with the group. I haven't done my Doug play-through yet but I can't imagine him doing the same because he simply doesn't know about you. I'll rescind this if somebody is willing to correct me here.
Yet still, they are minor characters. They don't have *much* time to develop (well, at least more than Chet, come on people), and they pretty much kick the bucket in identical fashion. Their fate still serves a purpose though. Admit it, your jaw dropped. It was shocking. But more than that, it represents the imminent disintegration of the group.
Most importantly, we should be thinking of what happened to Carley and Doug less in terms of themselves and more in terms of what it means to other, more substantial characters. Without spoiling anything else, Lilly and Ben in particular will be affected depending on how you handle things.
So, no, stop it, don't angrily slam your keyboard against the wall. Go outside for a walk, take a deep breath, admit that I'm right :cool:
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Argument is invalid: [SPOILERS] Carley has no eyes in the back of her head, which is why Lilly politely tried to put an extra hole there (or was it the side of the face? I couldn't tell). Also, Carley seemed to have forgotten that she had a gun and was instead trying to pester Lilly with word bullets.
but if thats how they had her die o well.......
Touche!
It wreaks of poor narrative development; I would even go so far as to say no attempts were made to find another way because of deadlines, i.e. dropping an episode once a month.
Had Carly or Doug's death had genuine meaning, even if it seemed senseless at the time, then I think the outrage would be less. Had Tell Tale wanted to see the characters to their respective death it would have been better to allow more develop time with them and have said death occur in the final episode.
Exactly my point! Their deaths are not pointless, they serve to affect other characters. BTW, I think there's more to Lilly's involvement than just "being ejected from the story." I think that Lilly is coming back, and depending on how you treat her after she gets all trigger-happy will determine how she comes back.
Yet it was STILL heart-wrenching to see them go. That despair you feel happens all the time when we look at the real world and see meaningless there too. Let's just let the storytellers do their job; they developed Carley and Doug as much as they wanted to. Now it's time to develop more characters and keep the revolving doors swinging.
Admittedly, I replayed that part of the episode like 5 times in an effort to either prevent anyone from dying or just get Ben killed instead. After I figured that it was impossible to save Carley, I figured that I better side with Poor Ben because I knew that he'd be sticking with me.
lol you're not the only one. I was stunned when Carley died but then again life isn't always fair.
I'm still mad I didn't get dat booty though *bites lower lip*.:cool:
I know I'm not the only one who wanted to see what she meant when she told me not to call her small :cool:
I am one of the few people that saved Doug, and Doug players really got screwed here. I built a good friendship with him, and he was useful. Every instance in the plot made more sense with Doug in contrast to Carley, in regards the scenarios and transitions. Whereas everything felt rushed and slap-dash with Carley.
I knew Ben was the one giving the bandits the medicine, I knew it in my heart but I couldn't prove it. I should have sided with Lily, but I realise there is no saving Doug. Completely lazy screenplay in this episode.
Still, the chaotic nature, suddenness led me to choose that me and Clem are going our own way, the group is irreversibly damaged. I still cannot trust Kenny to be rational, and Ben I cannot trust him period after his bold face lies that cost a group member their life, trying to show mercy for him.
Also how did Clems walkie get fixed?! There was only one person who could have fixed it and it was Doug! Another lazy decision from Tell-Tale. If players chose Carley they should never even hear the man on the Walkie-Talkie, they should be in the dark. As usual rewarding players, instead of making choices matter; Grow a back-bone please.
I was rite, there is no real choice; they are not skilled enough to turn out a game monthly that includes great choice moments that actually mean something within the game.
Instead you get fake choices.
Moments that seem like choices - masked to the slightly more dim when in actuality they have no effect apart from a few different dialogue choices.
Like save Shaun
Save Larry
Kill the brothers
Save doug or carly etc
But they continue to talk about how choice changes the game for each player; I'm surprised if anyone will still listen to this, glad I didn't invest in ep2 or 3.
Basically its like a film but you can change ever so slightly a few things the characters say... "Immense"
I can't really remember much about it in Episode 1 but my guess is that it was never broken and the man speaking to Clementine told her to tell Lee it was broken. Don't you think Doug would have told Lee he fixed it?
Ummm... correct me if I'm misunderstanding your last words there, but did you just admit that you didn't even play episode 2 or 3? Because if that's the case, I think you're being a little dishonest by being so opinionated, no?
The choices DO make a difference, you just have to see how they affect the people you're traveling with rather than whine about how they don't change the actual situation much. And take it from someone who has a save for Carley and another for Doug, each save becomes radically different in Ep. 3 despite the fact that they each die.
I agree, Ja1862 didn't even play the games and is being way too opinionated. He shouldn't even have a say in this if he didn't experience it. Anyways, I think the choices matter alot, I enjoy watching the different schenes that play out from different decisions you made in the past.
Lets be honest, the choices barely matter. They might bring about a slight change in dialogue or effect a very minor part of the story for a short period, but all in all they don't make much difference. I understand why though, Telltale don't have the time or resources to make a game that branches out in multiple directions. Hence Doug/Carley barely appearing in Episode 2 and being killed off quickly in Episode 3. They didn't have the time to do a Doug and Carley version of every scene in Episode 2, so they came up with a way to not have them there at all for the majority. For every scene they're still alive in Episode 3, it again means having to do it all twice, so as soon as they could, they killed them off.
They've made an entertaining game that i've enjoyed a lot, but the choices we make effect the story only in the most minor, superficial way.
GAA I'm trying to find out what happens if you kill both the saint jhon bro's and lilly stays behind there...COULD THAT BE A WAY TO SAVE THEM!??!
It doesn't matter if you kill them or don't kill them. Nothing changes storywise. Apparently it changes the way the others feel about you, but as far as i'm aware there's nothing in episode 3 that indicates anyone behaves any differently towards you if you killed them both.
In fact from what I can remember, I don't think what happened there is even mentioned at all. Apart from when Lee is convincing Clem to cut her hair and he reminds her Andy St John grabbed her by it.
You're small!
It truly is, not to mention emotionally and mentally fractured. I'm hoping Tell-Tale give us a respite from the death in Episode 4. I want tension, dread, ugliness, conflict, human condition exposed with flaws, but no more deaths please, atleast in Ep4. Give us an ease. Of course. Then go ass-cheek spread wide crazy in Ep5.
That would be interesting, but I believe they're going in opposite directions. I think she's heading northwest and the train is going southeast.
I don't understand why, if the point was to get rid of Lilly, they didn't just have Kenny drive off and leave her behind at the motel. That seemed to be what was about to happen before she miraculously ran downstairs, through the parking lot, and into the RV as it was pulling away.
I think of Doug and Carley as separate people who fulfill almost exactly the same role. One uses a laser pointer and the other uses a gun. One rigs an alarm and the other screams. Both get shot. Inconsequential dialogue choices aside, they're basically interchangeable. It's just disappointing there couldn't have been at least two puzzles that used their differing skill sets. One puzzle would be easy if you saved Doug and the other is hard with him, and vice versa with Carley.
Doug would have really loved to see the train. Sigh...:(
Miss you bro...
Damn it. He would have, wouldn't he?
That just makes it even more depressing.
The bandit raid/zombie shooting gallery section does play a bit differently depending on who's alive (
The Doug/Carly decision has been the most distinctive difference between different play throughs and by effectively "erasing it", it's not only thrown everybody back into playing the same game with the same characters (not to mention that was pretty much the only incentive to replay episodes up until now, to see how Doug/Carly would react) it's also kind of firmly established this trend of "fake choices".
The biggest thing you can do with a game about "choices" is to have a choice made at the beginning of the game that significantly alters the story and it's events from the beginning all the way to the end... and that's not happening now so it's understandable for some people to be upset about it. The game's plot will be a lot more simplified now and worse for it until the next "fake choice" comes along.
It's not just a zombie apocalypse game, it's a game zombie apocalypse game about characters and choices and when people like Ja1862 can see a bait and switch coming two episodes before it happens, well that's not a good thing in either genre.
After all this and season 2, it would be awesome if they developed a full fledged AAA The Walking Dead game with branching narratives. I could see myself putting 40 hours+ into that.
I'd much rather wait a longer period of time and be totally enthralled in developed character progression, then have a faux-choice of protection and camaraderie between people, when all they do is die anyways, in a train wreck of a fashion. Like really, Carley had the least amount of screen time in ep. 2, but when she did show up, she always held it down. It made me lose my motivation to purchase any new episodes, because, besides Clem, Who gives a shit anymore. I know she will be until the 5th episode by looking at the episode photo. Only person I cared about besides Clem was Carley, and by the reaction of others on forums, and youtube comments alike, it's a real low blow to fans of the game, thus far.
I can understand her dying in a later episode though, to add to the loss of attachment toward her character, but episode 2... No, too soon.
This could have been a more memorable moment in ''gaming history,'' such as Aeris' death in FF7, but was probably decided she die so they can cut corners on production, and instead quickly generate a surprisingly linear story with forgettable characters like a football jock who replaced a bad ass woman and potentially blooming love interest.
I'll miss you Carley.
When you have a game with choices, branching plots generally come with the territory.
It wouldn't be like making two games, it actually wouldn't be any different then what they do now. Multiple lines of dialog and events are set to appear depending on the value of certain variables (the statistics on the choices you've made) this would just affect a character's actual appearance along with that, but yes it would've been more work.
It's not the end of the world either way. I would definitely take good story telling over "the illusion of choice" so if it works, more power to them. It just seems to me like episode 3 moved the entire series BACKWARDS, not forward. It seems like they took most of the interesting characters and relationships and... well killed them off or got rid of them and replaced them with two cut out recycled ones.
If the game doesn't have branching story lines going for it (in which case every single choice is going to turn out to be a fake choice) then it only has it's story so I hope they throw in some interesting characters to replace all the good ones they threw out. Here's hoping for episode 4.
But well, maybe now they will be able to complete the episodes on time since they don't have to write two characters in one...
Carly also called Lily a 'stupid scared little bitch' (or something along those lines) moments before she was shot. When I saw Lily reach for her gun, I knew that if anyone was going to die, it would be Carly.
Carley/Doug was never going to make it all the way. Especially with the amount of shortcuts Telltale will need to take to keep their fans interested until the end of the series. All teh characters and their seeming "invisible affection points" appear to be undoable. That's what's starting to indo the series for me.
You get the chance to take a lot of things back. Only the very worst occurences are forced on you.
I feel that Clem might truly carry something over from each episode, but that'll be the extent. And being that it'll only come to show in Ep 5, it'll be very short term, and right now, is very VERY far off.
Edit: (!) Carley will remember your support for... nevermind she's dead.