[Spoilers] He caused EVERYTHING
And by 'he', I mean Ben. If you think about it, him stealing the meds caused the bandits to attack the Inn, which attracted the Walkers, which happened to bite Duck. Duck's bite had caused Katjaa to suicide as she didn't want to live with her son dying. On top of that, Lilly shot Carley/Doug because of the traitor in the group. She shot Carley, because Carley stood up for Ben, where as Doug took the bullet for Ben. That had then caused Lilly to be abandoned. So again, who is to blame? Ben. It would have been best off if we kicked his ass out of the group in Episode 2, before he officially joined...because of one single person, we lost four/five people.
Lilly, Carley/Doug, Katjaa, and Duck.
Screw Ben >_<
Lilly, Carley/Doug, Katjaa, and Duck.
Screw Ben >_<
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Carley/Doug dying is all on Lilly, as far as I'm concerned. She was clearly unstable, and shooting Carley/Doug was a result of her paranoia. She didn't really have any reason to suspect them, she was just kind of throwing out wild accusations at everyone.
And heck, if you want to track things back that far, we could say that all those deaths are Lee's fault. Lee's the one who put a stop to the St. Johns. If he hadn't, the bandits would still be satisfied with their arrangement with them. In which case, they wouldn't have come after Lee's group. In which case, Ben wouldn't have had to make a deal with them. In which case, Lee and Lilly wouldn't have found out about the missing supplies that led to the bandits raiding the motel.
If you think about it, things would not go well with other people. More people would have died. St. Johns would continue eating people. Shaun would still die. So much fucking injustice. Lee doesn't cause everything, he actually is a big influence.
I wonder what would happen if Lee denied the st. johns offer... I don't know why but all this talk on everything being Lees fault is depressing. Isn't there something that he influenced and that really matters from his existence/presence?
You two ever heard of infinite regression? You can keep going back in the chain of events, finding someone to blame.
And you two chose to blame the victim? How could Lee have possibly known the consequences of taking the bag?
Lee didn't kill anybody. Lee didn't make any covert deals. He tried to save lives by finding out what was happening with the medicine and you blame him for everything that happened? I just can't follow the logic.
If anybody is at fault, it's Ben. His actions invited this by helping the bandits for his naive belief that they had his friend and he could help. That's just a fact.
You can't blame anybody else for the consequences of that, especially victims, like Lee, except the bandits, who are ultimately responsible for this thanks to their criminal behavior.
Did you even read the rest of my comment? I said it was actually a good thing that he did it then, because Ben would continue stealing supplies and things would be much worse and head downhill from there.
Okay... You think it's a good thing he did it, but were talking about the blame for the events, right? And you blame Lee, though you think it was a good idea.
I'm saying it doesn't make sense to blame Lee.
It being a good idea or not is a moot point. It's a different discussion.
I am blaming Lee for the bandits taking over the Motor Inn at that time. But imagine it happening later? Wouldn't you rather it happen when it did happen then later having less supplies, even worse trust issues, and the whole gang turning on each other wondering on who is stealing the supplies? If Lee didn't take that package, the bandits wouldn't havn't attacked at THAT time. To avoid the whole situation, Ben should have been honest and at least tell Lee in private before heading in the RV. If Ben had told Lee and explained why he did so, things wouldn't have been so bad.
I guess as a whole It's Ben's fault. But Lee taking the package did cause the bandits to strike at the time they did.
Heck someone said in this thread that stopping the Dairy Farm is what caused all of this, which I don't quite get, because what would they do? Just stay in the meat locker to die? Seriously, he did whatever he could to survive.
Explain the logic in that.
First, explain how a person could be at fault for something they had no intention of doing and had no reasonable expectation of the outcome.
Second, you think if there was a justice system still in place (jail, court, etc), he should be convicted and held accountable for all the deaths? If you think Lee is to blame, then it's the just action to take and you have to say yes.
How could Lee have possible known what would happen if he took the bag to show Lilly?
Lee didn't do anything. He didn't have any intent to put himself or any others in danger. In fact, he was trying to do the opposite.
You have a gang of murders and someone in your group working with them and that's the only people you can blame.
If people want to blame the victim then fine. I just think it's nonsensical and a complete injustice.
Actually, you don't have to go that far back. Lee taking the meds is the immediate cause for the attack. He may have had good reasons for taking them, but that doesn't change the fact that if the bandits had gotten their supplies, it wouldn't have happened.
I don't see how you can blame that one on anyone other than Lilly. She was completely unhinged. Ben may not have confessed, but Lilly was the one who chose to pull the trigger for no good reason. And even if he had confessed at the time, then Lilly just would have shot him instead. But it would still be on Lilly for acting like a total psychopath.
All true points.
Just because someone doesn't know about the consequences of their actions, doesn't make it not their fault for the consequences happening. If I took 30 bucks off the ground and then someone tells me that it's their money. Not sure if they are being honest. I say "I don't believe you". We end up in a big fight and both having to go to the hospital. It would be my fault for picking up the 30 bucks in the first place. The consequences of my actions was because I picked up that 30 bucks.
And then this...
You're being inconsistent.
Honestly, I don't think anybody is more at fault then the bandits. They're just unscrupulous criminals.
Ben worked with them and that's a problem. He's a victim as well so his role in it all is complicated.
Like I said before, people can go back and blame any number of events and people. It just gets silly after a point.
In the end, the bandits are the ultimate culprits and Ben was an accomplice. If anybody would be convicted of any crime, it would be the bandits and maybe Ben.
Ben could have approached this situation so differently. He could have came to the group directly after his confrontation with the Bandits and worked out an alternative plan. Instead he stayed quiet, secretive and deceptive then he compounded his lies.
Ben caused death on both sides. The Bandits and the Group. I'll dump him the first chance I get.
That doesn't make any sense. Lee taking the meds wasn't the cause. The bandits being murderous thieves is the cause.
And you, or anybody else, can't say what they would have or wouldn't have done. All you can do is assume they would be pleased and not attack but you don't know that. They could have decided they want more supplies and attack anyway.
Like I said, the only cause was the bandits being amoral.
How the hell am I being inconsistent? I'm blaming Lee for the immediate attacking of the Bandits at the moment it happened. Yet, IF Ben told Lee about the deal with the bandits things would have went better and it's his fault for not saying anything which caused the whole mess. I am simply laying out both situations. It's Ben's fault for not saying anything about the deal. Since Lee didn't know about the deal since Ben didn't say anything about it. Lee went to go investigate. If lee hadn't investigated and found the package at the moment he did the bandits wouldn't have raided the camp at that time.
Do you not notice that the bandits came RIGHT AFTER Lee took the package? It's common sense. It would be far too much of a coincidence for it to happen right after Lee took the package.
You're talking about a guy that killed someone on his team on a whim. (ep 2.)
Common sense or rationality doesn't apply.
B/c your views aren't consistent with what's been observed.
Look, whoever you think should go to jail is to blame. Do you think that's Lee?
And you don't know if the meds were the pushing point. They are killers. The guy Lee is tasked with distracting while Lilly gets in position killed one of his own on a whim. He's obviously unstable. You can't say Lee's actions were the cause anymore than you could accurately predict an alternative future.
Ben- Totally lied to us and was out for a friend that was never real and didn't consult the group.
Lilly- Snapped because of all this shit were going through, and murdered ( in which i think) cold blood
I think the pink x represents that there package is here at the motor inn. Ben hid the package in the hole with OUR survival meds. Lee took the evidence that the traitor was among the group AND how was it there meds, we didn't exactly go to their base so we didnt steal shit. The bandits came to the hole and didnt see it there so they kept our people as hostages. Ben had an agreement with the bandits so it isnt really Lee's fault for what happens after. So yes Ben is the one at fault.
I basically agree with you that ultimately the only ones who can really be said to be at fault are the bandits. But just for the sake of argument: Lee didn't know that taking the bag would cause the bandits to attack, but he did know about the bandits' deal with the St. Johns back when he killed them/left them to die. Granted, under the circumstances there weren't a lot of other options, but it was ultimately his actions that turned the bandits into a threat by cutting off their access to the stuff they were getting from the dairy.
I think Ben was trying to help by paying them off -- he handled it really badly, but it was a problem that somebody was going to have to deal with eventually no matter what (unless they'd left the motor inn first like Kenny wanted, I guess). Ben's an idiot, but I wouldn't consider him a traitor.
hershal said we would have to depend on the honesty of strangers, and he was right. honesty/trust is a two way street, and this kid needs to be ran over for what he caused in our group.
The blame lies solely on the bandits heads. They didn't have to coerce Ben into giving them the meds and they didn't have to attack because Lee took them. They had the choice to do the right thing both times, but they didn't.
Very good point, you could blame the attacks on the parents of the bandits because if they hadn't procreated, the bandits wouldn't exist, and so on and so forth..
Well, my real point was simply to show how silly it is to go that far back to look for someone to blame. I'm not saying Lee shouldn't have done what he did. But the fact remains that he could have made different choices. He could have not dealt with the St. Johns at all. He could have backed out and left the farm at any time up until dinner. He could have kept his mouth shut and ate Mark. He could have ditched the farm as soon as he got out of the meat locker and left Katjaa and Duck to the St. Johns. Obviously, those may not be good choices. But they may have kept the bandits' deal with the St. Johns going. In which case, they probably wouldn't have come after the motel.
Of course, we wouldn't blame Lee for the bandit attack because there's no way he could have predicted everything that would happen. But likewise, there's no way Ben could have predicted that his deal with the bandits would lead to Duck getting bit, Lilly going crazy (or crazier?) and shooting Carley, or Katjaa committing suicide.
Granted, the bandits are ultimately responsible for their own actions. But saying that the bandits might have attacked anyway even if Lee hadn't taken the meds just seems silly. That was clearly the entire reason for the attack. They had made a deal for the supplies. They saw that the supplies weren't where they were supposed to be. They assumed that Ben had backed out of the deal. So they attacked. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for them to attack. Dead people can't pay after all. Amoral they may be, but we haven't seen any indication that they just go around killing people for no reason. People generally don't behave like that. Well, except for Lilly.
And in any case, I still wouldn't describe Ben as an "accomplice." You say he was working with them. That makes no sense. He was giving them supplies to prevent them from doing what they did. Saying they were working together is kind of like saying that someone being mugged is in cahoots with his mugger because he hands over his wallet instead of choosing to get shot in the face.
I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. It's not like there are any courts of law where you're going to prosecute someone in TWD. And even if there were, I don't think most people here are talking about legal responsibility. It's entirely possible to cause something bad to happen, whether intentionally or not, without ever committing an actual crime.
Wrong, it was. The most stupid thing he did came before Lee set everything in motion by taking that bag. He didn't let the group know not to interfere because the deal was for their safety. Something more than worth mentioning even if nobody asks. He didn't give anyone a chance to prepare for an organised (possibly scheduled) bandit attack as a result of hiding the deal. He let Lillys paranoia escalate beyond anybodys control. And that was just the things he could've done to prevent the problems before the episode even began.
During the episode he at least had the chance to mention after the escape. Ben thought he was clear of suspicion until the RV ride. Had he come clean, Carley/Doug surely would've lived. Of course Ben would've come off worst but neither would he have been likely to see the bullet treatment if he had calmly come clean and explained himself. His popularity would've plunged, despite his best intentions surely.
His further, well-disscussed stupidity has been more than established over the course of the episode. So far he's a liability. He's helped with nothing but eating our food. But plenty of damage is done.
I don't get how this makes sense to you. I don't get how you can blame the victim. It's just shameful.
I personally find it a repugnant position to take.
Even if you follow your sick, twisted logic, it just doesn't make sense. They have a deal with the group and make a side deal with Ben. Ben doesn't deliver so the logical thing is to attack the entire group?
No, it would be to press Ben. By attacking the group, not only do they end the deal with Ben but the bigger deal with the group. They also lose runners to go into the city to get supplies. Why ruin that?
They had a large group. They obviously seem like the drug using type, not only from their behavior, but what supplies they wanted, so it makes sense they would attack again anyway.
Like I said before, his role is complicated b/c he aided the criminals but was also a victim. But to be clear, he did it to save his friend (Travis?) who was freaking eaten in front of him in the beginning of ep 2. Believe him if you want.
It's just a tool to illustrate a point. I know there is no jail or court system. It's useful for teasing out what you really think is justice in this case. Not always, but for the most part laws reflect morals.
I think you're giving Lilly way more credit than she deserves. Lilly was a psychopath on a witch hunt. She didn't hesitate to murder someone with no justification whatsoever. What makes you think she wouldn't kill someone who had actually confessed?
I would find it repugnant as well. So it's a good thing that's not my position. I agreed with you that the bandits are the ones to blame for their own actions.
But there's also no denying that Lee taking the supplies led directly to the attack. I'm not saying he was wrong to do so. It doesn't matter what his intentions were. Whether he realized what he was doing or not, Lee's actions caused the bandits to attack in a much more direct sense than one could say about what Ben did.
The bandits didn't have a deal with Lee's group. They just had a deal with Ben. I'm guessing they assumed Ben was dealing on the group's behalf. Or they just didn't care as long as they kept getting what they wanted. Either way, they're clearly not making fine distinctions as to who in the group was on Ben's side and who wasn't. What do you want? They're bandits. Bandits are like that.
Given the way things went down, we don't really get to see what they were planning to do had Lee, Lilly, and the walkers not shown up. It's likely they wouldn't have killed everyone, just take what they wanted and do enough damage to intimidate them into cooperating in the future. And if the group refused to deal with them, then they don't really lose anything by killing them. Plus they probably figure it sends a message to any other groups of survivors in the area that they aren't to be messed with.
How does being a large group and being interested in drugs translate into "they're going to attack no matter what?"
He just said "a friend." I doubt he was referring to Travis since he saw Travis get eaten in Episode 2. Also, Lee had already met Travis, so if he meant Travis, he would have just said "Travis." It's likely he had more than one friend.
That's highly debatable.
We can agree to disagree, but I'll answer this question.
A large group needs a lot of supplies. Also, drug addicts need more drugs to get high. They build a tolerance after a while. So, with a lot of people to feed, and a drug habit, it makes sense they would want more food and drugs.
But I have to keep reminding myself that he's still a teenager. He might not be as naive or need as much coddling as Clem or Duck but he's also not a seasoned adult who's had to make a lot of difficult choices.
When the stash was found outside and obviously meant for the bandits, I thought that the thief was actually doing them all a favor by keeping the bandits away.
I can somewhat understand Ben not admitting to it outside the RV. He might have held onto that childhood notion that if nobody fesses up, nobody will get in trouble... until someone died because of it.
And also, he's had nobody to lean on since he joined the group. It's always been Lee/Clem, Lee/CarleyorDoug, Kenny/Katjaa/Duck, Lily/Larry. Nobody to kind of guide him in his still-growing-up phase. Not a boy, not yet a man.
His future story should be interesting.