One of the funniest things in hit the road was using Max's head to short out the river of love ride thing at the carnival...I cracked up at that...BRING BACK THAT HUMOUR!!!
I'd actually like to play as him, maybe Sam gets Kidnapped and you need to use Max to free him, and now that Sam's gone, Max has absolutely no moral compass.
I may be wrong, but I think Max is being used as a hint system.
Max has always been the hint system. Throughout Season One you could click on him to talk to him at any point in the game, and the dialog options were always tied directly to how far you were through the episode. He didn't always have the most helpful advice, but everything he said was always tied to offering some tiny-to-medium hint about any tasks you had left uncompleted.
In Season Two he can now just start rambling to himself or talking to you about the game independent of you clicking. Other characters can do this as well, but don't very often.
Max has always been the hint system. Throughout Season One you could click on him to talk to him at any point in the game, and the dialog options were always tied directly to how far you were through the episode. He didn't always have the most helpful advice, but everything he said was always tied to offering some tiny-to-medium hint about any tasks you had left uncompleted.
In Season Two he can now just start rambling to himself or talking to you about the game independent of you clicking. Other characters can do this as well, but don't very often.
I see. Sometimes I just thought he was just delivering a funny line instead of a hint.
I would prefer not to use Max as an inventory Item. When you can use Max, he kind of loses his inherant role. The role of violent, funny but essentialy useless tag-alongfriend.
Then again the Idea of being able to controll Max would be awesome.
I dream of the day I can launch Max through a window and hear him scream, "BOOGA BOOGA!!!!!"
I hope we get to do that in Season 2 during the driving sequences.:D Have another one of those "dodge 'em" scenarios like in Culture Shock, pull the Desoto next to the perp, click a special Max icon, trigger cut scene of him jumpping out of the car screaming "BOOGA BOOGA!" at the top of his lungs.:D
well you could have max even NOT do anything special except for maybe one or two triggers, the rest should just be insane rants or something random.. use max on his desk to get him to ponder the universe for .3 seconds then watch him chew a chunk out of the desk while saying the great fault line finally broke.. or something.
I was all for the Max inventory argument, until I heard Dave Grossman's reasoning. As he said, you never know what Max is gonna do if you throw him at something. This is true. When was the last time you predicted one of Max's actions?
I was all for the Max inventory argument, until I heard Dave Grossman's reasoning. As he said, you never know what Max is gonna do if you throw him at something. This is true. When was the last time you predicted one of Max's actions?
Episode Six after
Sam kicked him up to Hugh Bliss.
Before then, it was Episode 4 and how excited he became once we got access to The War Room. But other than that, yeah, Max does tend to act unpredictible.:D
indeed! I often want to use Max in the new game thinking it could solve a puzzel. I loved using max in the first game. But I also would like to play as Max. Just because I love him so much
at least max should be more useful. having him as a tool in htr was critisized sometimes but also had a certain charme. the shameless abuse of rabit-like life, i somehow miss it. maybe having not him in the inventory directly, but having items that make him do certain things. a bit like with the boxing glove, you use it on a person and max takes action.
the dialogues where you could switch between sam and max were a nice idea. max should me part of every dialogue, even if its just funny comments.
of course playing max on a few occasions would be awesome. maybe one or two of those classic two-person puzzles.
i don't like the idea of having them completly seperated. stuff like, sam gets imprisoned and you have to play the whole episode as sam wouldn't be fitting for sam & max. where there ever scenes in the comics, cartoons or game were they got split up?
anyway, more max-related action in season two would be in order..
where there ever scenes in the comics, cartoons or game
Off the top of my head, I remember in Monkey Violating the Heavenly Temple, Sam throws Max through a window to unlock the door from the inside(?) but Max gets kidnapped and there's a page or two where Sam's hunting down Max (I think, memory's a bit vague).
And in Hit the Road, Max gets trapped in the dunker in Gator Golf.
As for the the cartoon, I've watched a few episodes on Youtube, but never really thought that much of it, so I'm clueless on that (other than the episode where Max keeps changing history).
after thinking about it, what would be nice for example is maybe a vent is to small for sam, so max has to go through to , I dunno, collect thing? gather information? talk to be people? open a door somehow? So we can play small sections as max instead. I do admit I don't like seeing the team spilt up for to long
I was all for the Max inventory argument, until I heard Dave Grossman's reasoning. As he said, you never know what Max is gonna do if you throw him at something. This is true. When was the last time you predicted one of Max's actions?
However, the examples of using Max as an item in Hit The Road rarely involve using his talents or getting him to do anything. They were about abusing him in increasingly monstrous ways!
Whether or not the game needs making harder has been debated elsewhere, but I certainly think the facility to use Max as an inventory item should only be available IF the resulting puzzles are reasonably hard. Max would be an item that was never unavailable, so the 'acquiring the item' part of most puzzles would be inherently omitted. To make up for that, the solutions must require a certain level of ingenuity, surely.
I don't like the idea of the duo splitting up for more than miniscule sections of the game, just because the best thing about it is the rapport between the two of them.
I think of Max in Hit the Road sort of like the scythe in Grim Fandango... it was really cool that, as the grim reaper, Manny had a scythe all the time, but the fact that you used it next to never meant that there were some points in the game that were effectively impossible, because once you got that far into the game, the scythe had become a novelty that was just never used (for instance
using the scythe to pry open the vault door that you had just spent a bunch of time unlocking via the little safe cracking mini-game puzzle. the fact that you had to then scythe open the door was so painful, and stumped almost everyone I know for at least one evening worth of Grim playing
). It can be fun and rewarding, but I think in practice it sets a prescedent that you either have to meet often (letting people use Max often enough to solve puzzles that they'll then think to use Max when it's appropriate), or risk underusing it and causing situations like the Grim vault puzzle I outlined above.
Although I also got stuck on the puzzle you mention, Jake, I don't resent it at all, because it's a perfectly reasonable solution as far as I can tell. A little thought reveals that you need something to slide in the gap; that I and many other people didn't think of the scythe blade, despite it being a long, flat object, is entirely our own fault.
An evening stuck on one puzzle is nothing, anyway!
So on the contrary, I think conditioning players not to immediately jump to the Max solution isn't such a bad thing. Otherwise it'll become a default strategy every time they come across anything new. An example, which I'm afraid comes from Season One, of what happens when several puzzles can be easily solved with a readily available item is the computer bug in Episode 5. To discover how to use it is really to find the solutions to several puzzles all at once, meaning a single item fairly rockets you through the game.
Although I also got stuck on the puzzle you mention, Jake, I don't resent it at all, because it's a perfectly reasonable solution as far as I can tell. A little thought reveals that you need something to slide in the gap; that I and many other people didn't think of the scythe blade, despite it being a long, flat object, is entirely our own fault.
An evening stuck on one puzzle is nothing, anyway!
I agree...having to spend a night on a puzzle simply prolongs gameplay and makes the game more enjoyable, because once you figure out that puzzle, you feel that much more accomplished...unless of course you check a walkthrough, which would be lame, because nothing is THAT hard...
I cant believe you are not able to use Max and be able to talk to him as well...that just seems silly to me...you could design the game so that there is an inventory item that is Max's head, but in general gameplay, when you click Max, it initiates speech, rather than that inventory item...
So on the contrary, I think conditioning players not to immediately jump to the Max solution isn't such a bad thing. Otherwise it'll become a default strategy every time they come across anything new. An example, which I'm afraid comes from Season One, of what happens when several puzzles can be easily solved with a readily available item is the computer bug in Episode 5. To discover how to use it is really to find the solutions to several puzzles all at once, meaning a single item fairly rockets you through the game.
Having said that, it seems reasonably logical that a computer bug would affect anything on the internet...in fact make that very logical...especially when the plot involved
trying to destroy the internet
...I mean that just makes sense...So tailoring an item like that is rather difficult just by the nature of it in the world its used in...
However, Max is a little different...Maybe this is just me, but the thought of using Max to get out of certain situations probably would not come to mind...although in alot of cases, if the player is stuck, the solution usually comes down to trial and error so I guess thats not really valid...
What I believe this all comes down to is the fact that, using Max in situations like in Hit the Road, adds alot to the humour value of the game...Maybe you could make it so in certain puzzles there are 2 solutions, one where you use Max in a more hilarious yet possibly more difficult way, or use another item for the more direct path through the puzzle?
My problem with Max in Hit the Road was that he was basically just a wild card. I never felt clever for figuring out to use Max with something, it was always "If nothing else works, then try Max as a last resort."
Of course, that was by design, and it fit in with the character of a completely unpredictable, psychopathic rabbit sidekick. But I feel like LucasArts already did that joke, so it's done.
hmm, maybe it would also possible not to have max as an inventory item, but to be able to hand every item to max and have him check on it. he could then do some funny animation, give comments or do something with it. this could be part of the hint system also. maybe even have this a part of a puzzle. like when you had to feed him the spoon-thingy in e6. it was a nice idea, had almost the same degree of max-abusal than some puzzles in htr.
If you couldn't use max as an inventory item it would be cool if for one of the puzzles you had to convince Max to do something.. Just by using dialogue, or even giving Max an inventory item. There is things a psychotic bunny will do and Sam will not. I still think that idea has plenty left in it. [oops, didn't read the wisp post, but my thinking is along the same lines]
mm...
"Let me push you through that hole, Max."
"You go through it!"
"What, you're afraid there're some icky bugs in it?"
"You're the one that's afraid of snakes!"
"..."
introducing an item that seems to be extremly important and every character in the game tells you so as well and max is like "gimme, gimme" all the time. if the player then chooses to really hand it to max he plays around with it and breaks it in a quite nasty way. problem solved. would be a nice joke. of course something like this has to be well prepared so the player really feels :eek:...
Having said that, it seems reasonably logical that a computer bug would affect anything on the internet...in fact make that very logical...especially when the plot involved
trying to destroy the internet
...I mean that just makes sense...So tailoring an item like that is rather difficult just by the nature of it in the world its used in...
You're right, and I'd have said that was a case for not including such a powerful object in Episode 5, but that's irrelevant here! If you forget the Reality 2.0 context, my example was only supposed to show how excessively easy puzzles can be if there is a challenge neither in obtaining nor in determining how to use the item. As you say, Max's puzzles will not be so tailor-made, but I think it's important obstacles don't come with a big 'use Max for this one' sign, or they may as well not be there at all.
Maybe you could make it so in certain puzzles there are 2 solutions, one where you use Max in a more hilarious yet possibly more difficult way, or use another item for the more direct path through the puzzle?
As I've said in other threads, I personally don't believe puzzles should have two solutions, because, other arguments aside, why bother getting whatever it is you need to solve it one way when when you already have the other means (in this case Max)?
My problem with Max in Hit the Road was that he was basically just a wild card. I never felt clever for figuring out to use Max with something, it was always "If nothing else works, then try Max as a last resort."
Of course, that was by design, and it fit in with the character of a completely unpredictable, psychopathic rabbit sidekick. But I feel like LucasArts already did that joke, so it's done.
That's what happened to me when I played the game. Especially in the Tunnel of Love, I never thought "Oh yeah, I should use Max here!".
I'd settle for switching control to Max for some (or at least one) puzzles.
And having Sam around as a support character or not having Sam around at all
I think of Max in Hit the Road sort of like the scythe in Grim Fandango... it was really cool that, as the grim reaper, Manny had a scythe all the time, but the fact that you used it next to never meant that there were some points in the game that were effectively impossible, because once you got that far into the game, the scythe had become a novelty that was just never used (for instance
using the scythe to pry open the vault door that you had just spent a bunch of time unlocking via the little safe cracking mini-game puzzle. the fact that you had to then scythe open the door was so painful, and stumped almost everyone I know for at least one evening worth of Grim playing
). It can be fun and rewarding, but I think in practice it sets a prescedent that you either have to meet often (letting people use Max often enough to solve puzzles that they'll then think to use Max when it's appropriate), or risk underusing it and causing situations like the Grim vault puzzle I outlined above.
I know what you mean Jake. I recently started replaying the 2 Phoenix Wright games for the DS in preperation for the 3rd hitting stateside in October. One item that's always in your inventory is your Attorney Badge, which shows you are a defense attorney. Yet throughout the majority of the 1st game when you would show it to someone they would trigger a dialougue exchange to the effect of "What the heck is that?" "Nothing. Never mind."
But near the end of the 1st game there is a part where you have to show it to advance (think both the 4th and 5th case) where there was at least 1 part where you had to show it to advance the game and I was stuck trying to figure out what to do.
At least in the 2nd one you can show to most people and they will actually have an reaction to it other than "I don't know what that this" and/or is used to advance more often (mostly to get your client to take you as their attorney).
So in my opinion, as long as there are some reaction to "using" Max as an inventory item other every now and then other than "Sorry no can do, Sam." I'm all for it. I.e. comedy bits where he tries ssomething but fails in a funny way or just launches a comedic quip/observation/hint. Also have him used for something every now and then.
But if it's a situation where there will be only 1 actually useful thing for using max on something throughout all six parts of the season then I'd say no.
That's what happened to me when I played the game. Especially in the Tunnel of Love, I never thought "Oh yeah, I should use Max here!".
Yeah, I agree with you and Chuck here. There's no reason to think Max should be used there, even though once you find the solution you see how it works (by Sam dipping Max in the water first). For some reason, possibly the one I just said, that kind of puzzle still doesn't bother me, though.
I guess it's difficult to determine how much thought and how much experimentation should be in these games. To what extent are we supposed to do what we would think of, and to what length should we think like Sam and Max instead? After all, it's always Sam who gets the last word, whether by refusing to use the item as we instruct, or by using it in a different way from what we intended or imagined. In a sense the player's role is nothing more than to prompt him into doing what he sees as logical, and since we can't communicate with him, experimentation could be necessary at times to find out what this is. I think as you experience an adventure game you get a progressively better feel for the particular way in which the game's logic is warped.
Hm. I seem to be describing Sam rather a lot as though we were an actual person
Yeah, I agree with you and Chuck here. There's no reason to think Max should be used there, even though once you find the solution you see how it works (by Sam dipping Max in the water first). For some reason, possibly the one I just said, that kind of puzzle still doesn't bother me, though.
But, in alot of cases, that is what makes these kinds of puzzles so great...the fact that the answer is not so obvious the first time round...and Im not sure that having Max as another inventory item would actually make puzzles a tad more interesting...he could almost be considered a wildcard...definately not to be overused, but more as a sort of one-off thing where the solution doesnt seem so obvious...In reality this all boils down to the ability of the dev team and the writers to make great puzzles to stump everyone...Im sure you could utilise Max somewhere if the effort was put in...
I liked the whole sythe thing though! I think its a great idea, but maybe you use max when theres logic involved. So if its a small hole you can't get through Sam says "its to small for me to get through" then similar to what happened with the rat canon you can shove max through
Comments
I may be wrong, but I think Max is being used as a hint system.
Max has always been the hint system. Throughout Season One you could click on him to talk to him at any point in the game, and the dialog options were always tied directly to how far you were through the episode. He didn't always have the most helpful advice, but everything he said was always tied to offering some tiny-to-medium hint about any tasks you had left uncompleted.
In Season Two he can now just start rambling to himself or talking to you about the game independent of you clicking. Other characters can do this as well, but don't very often.
I see. Sometimes I just thought he was just delivering a funny line instead of a hint.
It's because I was just so good at the game, Max decided to give me exclusive dialouge that no-one else has ever heard. Not even Telltale.
Then again the Idea of being able to controll Max would be awesome.
I hope we get to do that in Season 2 during the driving sequences.:D Have another one of those "dodge 'em" scenarios like in Culture Shock, pull the Desoto next to the perp, click a special Max icon, trigger cut scene of him jumpping out of the car screaming "BOOGA BOOGA!" at the top of his lungs.:D
Before then, it was Episode 4 and how excited he became once we got access to The War Room. But other than that, yeah, Max does tend to act unpredictible.:D
the dialogues where you could switch between sam and max were a nice idea. max should me part of every dialogue, even if its just funny comments.
of course playing max on a few occasions would be awesome. maybe one or two of those classic two-person puzzles.
i don't like the idea of having them completly seperated. stuff like, sam gets imprisoned and you have to play the whole episode as sam wouldn't be fitting for sam & max. where there ever scenes in the comics, cartoons or game were they got split up?
anyway, more max-related action in season two would be in order..
Off the top of my head, I remember in Monkey Violating the Heavenly Temple, Sam throws Max through a window to unlock the door from the inside(?) but Max gets kidnapped and there's a page or two where Sam's hunting down Max (I think, memory's a bit vague).
And in Hit the Road, Max gets trapped in the dunker in Gator Golf.
As for the the cartoon, I've watched a few episodes on Youtube, but never really thought that much of it, so I'm clueless on that (other than the episode where Max keeps changing history).
However, the examples of using Max as an item in Hit The Road rarely involve using his talents or getting him to do anything. They were about abusing him in increasingly monstrous ways!
Whether or not the game needs making harder has been debated elsewhere, but I certainly think the facility to use Max as an inventory item should only be available IF the resulting puzzles are reasonably hard. Max would be an item that was never unavailable, so the 'acquiring the item' part of most puzzles would be inherently omitted. To make up for that, the solutions must require a certain level of ingenuity, surely.
I don't like the idea of the duo splitting up for more than miniscule sections of the game, just because the best thing about it is the rapport between the two of them.
I like having him wander around, offering his Maxian philosophy.
An evening stuck on one puzzle is nothing, anyway!
So on the contrary, I think conditioning players not to immediately jump to the Max solution isn't such a bad thing. Otherwise it'll become a default strategy every time they come across anything new. An example, which I'm afraid comes from Season One, of what happens when several puzzles can be easily solved with a readily available item is the computer bug in Episode 5. To discover how to use it is really to find the solutions to several puzzles all at once, meaning a single item fairly rockets you through the game.
I agree...having to spend a night on a puzzle simply prolongs gameplay and makes the game more enjoyable, because once you figure out that puzzle, you feel that much more accomplished...unless of course you check a walkthrough, which would be lame, because nothing is THAT hard...
I cant believe you are not able to use Max and be able to talk to him as well...that just seems silly to me...you could design the game so that there is an inventory item that is Max's head, but in general gameplay, when you click Max, it initiates speech, rather than that inventory item...
Having said that, it seems reasonably logical that a computer bug would affect anything on the internet...in fact make that very logical...especially when the plot involved
However, Max is a little different...Maybe this is just me, but the thought of using Max to get out of certain situations probably would not come to mind...although in alot of cases, if the player is stuck, the solution usually comes down to trial and error so I guess thats not really valid...
What I believe this all comes down to is the fact that, using Max in situations like in Hit the Road, adds alot to the humour value of the game...Maybe you could make it so in certain puzzles there are 2 solutions, one where you use Max in a more hilarious yet possibly more difficult way, or use another item for the more direct path through the puzzle?
Wow...long post...XD...interesting topic though...
Of course, that was by design, and it fit in with the character of a completely unpredictable, psychopathic rabbit sidekick. But I feel like LucasArts already did that joke, so it's done.
"Let me push you through that hole, Max."
"You go through it!"
"What, you're afraid there're some icky bugs in it?"
"You're the one that's afraid of snakes!"
"..."
introducing an item that seems to be extremly important and every character in the game tells you so as well and max is like "gimme, gimme" all the time. if the player then chooses to really hand it to max he plays around with it and breaks it in a quite nasty way. problem solved. would be a nice joke. of course something like this has to be well prepared so the player really feels :eek:...
You're right, and I'd have said that was a case for not including such a powerful object in Episode 5, but that's irrelevant here! If you forget the Reality 2.0 context, my example was only supposed to show how excessively easy puzzles can be if there is a challenge neither in obtaining nor in determining how to use the item. As you say, Max's puzzles will not be so tailor-made, but I think it's important obstacles don't come with a big 'use Max for this one' sign, or they may as well not be there at all.
As I've said in other threads, I personally don't believe puzzles should have two solutions, because, other arguments aside, why bother getting whatever it is you need to solve it one way when when you already have the other means (in this case Max)?
That's what happened to me when I played the game. Especially in the Tunnel of Love, I never thought "Oh yeah, I should use Max here!".
And having Sam around as a support character or not having Sam around at all
I know what you mean Jake. I recently started replaying the 2 Phoenix Wright games for the DS in preperation for the 3rd hitting stateside in October. One item that's always in your inventory is your Attorney Badge, which shows you are a defense attorney. Yet throughout the majority of the 1st game when you would show it to someone they would trigger a dialougue exchange to the effect of "What the heck is that?" "Nothing. Never mind."
But near the end of the 1st game there is a part where you have to show it to advance (think both the 4th and 5th case) where there was at least 1 part where you had to show it to advance the game and I was stuck trying to figure out what to do.
At least in the 2nd one you can show to most people and they will actually have an reaction to it other than "I don't know what that this" and/or is used to advance more often (mostly to get your client to take you as their attorney).
So in my opinion, as long as there are some reaction to "using" Max as an inventory item other every now and then other than "Sorry no can do, Sam." I'm all for it. I.e. comedy bits where he tries ssomething but fails in a funny way or just launches a comedic quip/observation/hint. Also have him used for something every now and then.
But if it's a situation where there will be only 1 actually useful thing for using max on something throughout all six parts of the season then I'd say no.
Yeah, I agree with you and Chuck here. There's no reason to think Max should be used there, even though once you find the solution you see how it works (by Sam dipping Max in the water first). For some reason, possibly the one I just said, that kind of puzzle still doesn't bother me, though.
I guess it's difficult to determine how much thought and how much experimentation should be in these games. To what extent are we supposed to do what we would think of, and to what length should we think like Sam and Max instead? After all, it's always Sam who gets the last word, whether by refusing to use the item as we instruct, or by using it in a different way from what we intended or imagined. In a sense the player's role is nothing more than to prompt him into doing what he sees as logical, and since we can't communicate with him, experimentation could be necessary at times to find out what this is. I think as you experience an adventure game you get a progressively better feel for the particular way in which the game's logic is warped.
Hm. I seem to be describing Sam rather a lot as though we were an actual person
But, in alot of cases, that is what makes these kinds of puzzles so great...the fact that the answer is not so obvious the first time round...and Im not sure that having Max as another inventory item would actually make puzzles a tad more interesting...he could almost be considered a wildcard...definately not to be overused, but more as a sort of one-off thing where the solution doesnt seem so obvious...In reality this all boils down to the ability of the dev team and the writers to make great puzzles to stump everyone...Im sure you could utilise Max somewhere if the effort was put in...