The Big Ben Discussion... *SPOILERS*
Hello all!
I've been looking through the forums and have found a few discussions on Ben, but nothing very in depth. I'm a forum noob myself so apologies if you're a "search button nazi" and will come to tell me off because you have nothing better to do.
Anyway... Onwards!
Firstly, I love this game! It makes decision making so difficult sometimes as you never have a win/win situation. It never patronises you with a "You chose the good action, so everything will be good
" cliche like so many other RPG's. Which is where Ben comes into the equation...
I'm not a fan of Ben... At all! After I found out he had a deal with the bandits and was the reason Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck were all killed, he was dead to me! I couldn't wait for episode 4 and I was hoping I could either leave him or kill him.
When episode 4 rolled around, and he leaves Clementine in the street to die, that just confirmed how quickly I'd kill him or kick him out the group. I know he doesn't have bad intentions as such, but he is completely brain dead (pun!) and a massive liability for the group, as proved in episode 4 where he evolves from generally useless to a complete fuck up. As the episode went on, I had more and more reasons to kill him, like when he took the axe out the locked door or didn't keep an eye on Clementine in the house... He was pushing all my buttons.
As soon as the moment came around when he was caught by the zombie on the bell tower, I was so happy. I didn't even shoot the zombie in an attempt to help him, I just waited and let him fall to the bottom and die. At that moment, I was glad to be rid of him.
When I saw Clementine's reaction to this, I started to regret it, a little. I'd do more or less anything for Clementine as she's one of the last few things left in the awful Walking Dead world that has remained innocent and hopeful. She always see's the best in people, even if they leave her in the street to die like Ben did.
What made me start to regret my decision to let Ben die was when I watched on YouTube what happens if you shoot the zombie on the bell tower and try to help Ben. He asks you to look after the others and leave him to die. That was the first time I've ever had a glimpse of respect for Ben because he finally put other people before himself. The rest of the time in the group he's been a totally useless, whiny little leech, but then he really "manned up" so to speak.
After seeing him drop then, I felt pretty terrible, to the extent I even questioned myself as a person if I would really let him do that in that situation (not that I'd have the upper body strength to lift him up with one hand anyway!)
I started thinking that if I don't do all I can to save everyone, regardless of whether they've fucked up or were totally useless, what does that make me? How am I any better than the rest of the group who can be really unreliable and flawed at best. I wouldn't give evil people like the Saint Johns a chance, I'd leave them to die without a flicker of regret, but I started to wonder whether Ben deserved to die just because he was useless?
I'm not a fan on going back on my original decisions, I think it cheapens it somewhat, but I am considering saving Ben and taking the whole group with me to save Clem, even after all that Ben has done. I don't really trust any of the characters that much, especially after the twists and turns of previous episodes, but I also don't want to see them come to harm anymore like I previously did. Clementine is the one that will always come first for me however and I'll do anything for her, even if that means sucking up my own distrust or hate of others so that I don't have to put Clementine through anything worse.
What do you all think about the situation? What were your thoughts and feelings towards Ben up to and after the point of his death/rescue? I'd be interested to know so I can decide what to do with him in that situation.
I've been looking through the forums and have found a few discussions on Ben, but nothing very in depth. I'm a forum noob myself so apologies if you're a "search button nazi" and will come to tell me off because you have nothing better to do.
Anyway... Onwards!
Firstly, I love this game! It makes decision making so difficult sometimes as you never have a win/win situation. It never patronises you with a "You chose the good action, so everything will be good
" cliche like so many other RPG's. Which is where Ben comes into the equation...I'm not a fan of Ben... At all! After I found out he had a deal with the bandits and was the reason Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck were all killed, he was dead to me! I couldn't wait for episode 4 and I was hoping I could either leave him or kill him.
When episode 4 rolled around, and he leaves Clementine in the street to die, that just confirmed how quickly I'd kill him or kick him out the group. I know he doesn't have bad intentions as such, but he is completely brain dead (pun!) and a massive liability for the group, as proved in episode 4 where he evolves from generally useless to a complete fuck up. As the episode went on, I had more and more reasons to kill him, like when he took the axe out the locked door or didn't keep an eye on Clementine in the house... He was pushing all my buttons.
As soon as the moment came around when he was caught by the zombie on the bell tower, I was so happy. I didn't even shoot the zombie in an attempt to help him, I just waited and let him fall to the bottom and die. At that moment, I was glad to be rid of him.
When I saw Clementine's reaction to this, I started to regret it, a little. I'd do more or less anything for Clementine as she's one of the last few things left in the awful Walking Dead world that has remained innocent and hopeful. She always see's the best in people, even if they leave her in the street to die like Ben did.
What made me start to regret my decision to let Ben die was when I watched on YouTube what happens if you shoot the zombie on the bell tower and try to help Ben. He asks you to look after the others and leave him to die. That was the first time I've ever had a glimpse of respect for Ben because he finally put other people before himself. The rest of the time in the group he's been a totally useless, whiny little leech, but then he really "manned up" so to speak.
After seeing him drop then, I felt pretty terrible, to the extent I even questioned myself as a person if I would really let him do that in that situation (not that I'd have the upper body strength to lift him up with one hand anyway!)
I started thinking that if I don't do all I can to save everyone, regardless of whether they've fucked up or were totally useless, what does that make me? How am I any better than the rest of the group who can be really unreliable and flawed at best. I wouldn't give evil people like the Saint Johns a chance, I'd leave them to die without a flicker of regret, but I started to wonder whether Ben deserved to die just because he was useless?
I'm not a fan on going back on my original decisions, I think it cheapens it somewhat, but I am considering saving Ben and taking the whole group with me to save Clem, even after all that Ben has done. I don't really trust any of the characters that much, especially after the twists and turns of previous episodes, but I also don't want to see them come to harm anymore like I previously did. Clementine is the one that will always come first for me however and I'll do anything for her, even if that means sucking up my own distrust or hate of others so that I don't have to put Clementine through anything worse.
What do you all think about the situation? What were your thoughts and feelings towards Ben up to and after the point of his death/rescue? I'd be interested to know so I can decide what to do with him in that situation.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Ben... I'd say people that let him go can go smell a rat's ass.
I mean you regret it, but I honestly when he said:"LET GO DAMMIT!" My heart changed from hating Ben to regretting it so i pulled him up, he wuz willing his life to save others.
only men with balls of steel would do that
I was about fed up with Ben too, but not to the extent that you seem to have been. I still considered him a part of the group, albeit a pretty crappy member. Understandable that anyone would be fed up with him though. He has about 5 different deaths he is responsible for by the time you get to the top of the bell tower. And he was also willing to let Clem die, and his confession screwed the tattered remains of the "group dynamic" that remained by that point. Seriously, I even yelled "You decide to grow a pair NOW, of all times?!" at my monitor. Hell, my first instinct was actually to aim at Ben himself with the shotgun and shoot him, like he said he would do himself if a walker ever got hold of him (you can't do that though, it's either shoot the walker or watch him drop).
I shot the walker, and then let Ben go. But when he told me to get everyone out of there, even though walkers were clawing at his feet, I said to myself "Can I really let him die?" Then I saw the walkers keep coming closer, and Kenny gave me that nod... Since the walkers were everywhere, and Vernon's comment about the train made me think that the herd from Episode 3 was about to show up, I reasoned that trying to save Ben would be time wasted getting everyone else out of Crawford, and thinking about the experience with Carley and Doug I thought he'd die no matter what. I dropped him to save everyone else. I didn't think there was any way to save him without at least putting someone else in danger.
I felt the same way you did afterward. Especially when I had to explain what happened to Clem. I even said, upon the group coming back to the house "I really hope nobody asks about Ben." When I found out that he actually would have survived had I pulled him up, I was shocked. I felt so terrible, especially considering that I abandoned Lilly, killed Danny and Jolene, and helped Kenny kill Larry in the previous episodes. In my opinion, Ben really didn't deserve to die. He's just a stupid kid who had his heart in the right place. I managed (barely) to keep myself from rewinding, and am going to live with my choice in Episode 5.
The casuaties from e3 were high indeed. Two of my friends were dead in a field. Of my two best friends, one was dead by the side of the road and the other left in the RV with my blessings. Four members of my group, in my charge, were gone. Three of them permanently. The dead were Duck, Kat and Carley. Lilly left the group.
When Ben finally admitted to being the traitor the consequences of what he had done were upon him. I had no trouble letting him die since my policy is no mercy for traitors. I deemed him a threat to the group or any other group that had the misfortune to welcome him in as we did.
When it comes to gameplay, I support what Rock114 suggested. I do not do rewinds or have multiple playthroughs. I think it is right to make decisions under pressure. Make the call and take the consequences whatever they may be.
Welcome to the forum as well.
As the game progressed, I decided that what Lee really hates are zombies and people who aren't trying or have turned on humanity. I didn't agree with Kenny for killing Larry, but he thought he was protecting the group, so I forgave him. I didn't agree with Ben for making a deal with the bandits, but he tried to save his friends and protect the group. I forgave him, even though I don't think he should be in charge of anything more important than his shoelaces. Ben has been a coward and an idiot, but that just changes how much responsibility he should have, not whether he should live. Even Lilly tried to protect the group by finding the traitor, so I would have forgiven her, too.
In contrast, I killed the St Johns, even with Clem watching. They were doing what they thought was needed to survive, so what's the difference? They made the choice to abandon their humanity and prey on others, knowing that it would only benefit them. Even Crawford deserved to survive more than the St Johns. Crawford was miserable, but everyone at least had a choice.
When I saw the situation escalating between Ben and Kenny, I tried to talk Ben down, because I thought Ben should man up and live with his guilt (or at least wait until a better time!). That's the least he could do for Kenny. When the truth came out, I argued for the vote and let Clementine speak up for Ben. When Ben was attacked by the zombie, I shot it. When he was hanging from the edge begging to die, and Kenny gave Lee the nod to let him go, I took one look at the zombies and said, "Fuck you, zombies." I pulled Ben up. Not only did I save Ben's life, but I saved Kenny from losing more of his humanity. It was a great moment.
When everyone (except Kenny, who is working on the boat) pulled together at the end of episode 4, I felt that all of Lee's hard work is paying off. He's going to die, but his life in the zombie apocalypse has been worthwhile. He's done what he can, and his only regret is not taking Clem seriously enough to stop her from going to the walkie talkie man. If they can just get her back, hopefully Lee's leadership has kept enough humanity in the group that it's a safe place for Clem (well, as safe as anywhere).
Your Lee, on the other hand, has pushed Kenny closer to becoming a monster and just barely has enough humanity to feel guilt over Ben. I wonder if your Lee will be happy to die saving Clem, thankful that if he goes out a hero, he won't have to face what he's become or how much worse he would become. How long until Lee would have hurt Clem or destroyed her faith in him? And is Clem really going to be safe with someone like Kenny as he becomes colder and colder, especially when Lee isn't around to protect her? Hopefully Christa and Omid survive, as they still have what it takes to care for a little girl.
As it is, I got to enjoy one moment where everything came together. In episode 5, I'm sure I'll get to watch everyone die.
Nevertheless, I saved Ben because my policy is not to murder anyone in the group. That sets my Lee apart from Crawford. It's true that Ben served as a liabiliy and resulted in the death of people - but he was no murderer like Lilly was. I'd sooner do away with Lilly than Ben. Ben is stupid and a coward, but that isn't enough to let him become fodder for zombies.
And my Lee is, well, like me. Don't really know how to describe that
And also, I agree with Rock114. Don't rewind, it kinda takes away.... something from the game. It's not the same thing if you do it.
Same here, I really wanted to drop him but something deep down told me to pull him up.
I hope it pays off in the end and we don't have a "Omid, Ben what have you done to Omid" moment.
This one paragraph sums it all up for me. Thanks Indigo! Although, I never technically murdered him as I just stood and watched him fall instead of shooting the zombie, in my mind at the time that was exactly what he did when Clementine was in trouble.
I know I would never murder him in real life, I'd give him warnings and then kick him from the group if that's what the others wanted, like what happened when everyone had their vote in the game. I'd do the same.
I wouldn't wish death on him, he never intentionally hurt anyone but his cowardice and lies have lead to lots of innocent people dying. The single moment where I felt like he actually earnt his right to live was watching him ask to let go of him. He finally grew a pair and accepted his guilt, enough to want to sacrifice himself.
He didn't deserve to die, but then nor did the others that he was partially responsible for. It's a difficult moral line for me to take, and you're right, I got caught up in my emotions a little to much that it clouded my moral judgement in that moment.
I kind of hope Tell Tale don't just cop out a little and finally have Ben do something heroic in the end just because you did the "good guy" thing and save him. If anything, I kind of hope that decision comes back to bite you in the ass once more as that would be more rewarding in a way, because everyone is expecting Ben to come back and do something awesome in the 5th episode. I hope he remains the same just to show you that sometimes trying to be morally good in those situations can sometimes actually make things worse in the long run, hence why it's a tough choice.
Did you just regret it simply because you could save him or because you want an extra person in your group?
By no means did Ben DESERVE to die, but he did need a telling off (i wish i just hadnt of dropped him, but at least it was an accident) but I then soon realised that even if I had of saved him he would probably of died in the end anyway.
I was really angry when Kenny tried to get me into throwing a salt lick onto Larry's head, sure I didn't like the guy, but murdering them because I don't like someone? A bit too extreme, but Kenny had a last scrap of humanity and he threw it away by ergeing Lee (you) into dropping Ben.
It's a difficult subject to debate on but I really like this thread because it gives everyone a chance to discuss our reasons behind our choices and really analyse the Ben death descions and what he did in the group, I personally felt frustrated by Ben, leading the group into dangerous situations. But then again in Clem made a mistake would I decide to drop her? Probably not, but it's because Ben is older and should be able to think on his feet and not be so idiotic.
That's my opinion, so don't shit on please. Thanks lol
I agree with people, I'd say do your full first playthrough with this consequence, I have the feeling it will be worth it.
I'm pretty sure that we'll live by the consequences either way whether or not we pulled him up.
THE END
- deal with the bandits without consulting the group (he had no right to take our supplies and give them to the bandits and with proper warning we would've been much more prepared to take them on).
- not admitting that it was him and then admitting it at the worst possible time. Once again, ruining the team dynamic and jeopardizing LIVES!
- not protecting Clementine - not just in the street - but also not keeping an eye on her and letting her get out of the house. He is completely reckless.
- removing the hatchet from the door. Granted, the zombies may not have been there at the moment and maybe Lee or even Kenny would've been smarter to mention why there was a weapon in the door to Ben. BUT how dumb can you be??
It may have been wrong to let him die that way but I do feel that realistically, if you pulled him up, there should have been worse consequences for wasting your time while zombies are approaching. The ZA has been going on for over 3 months now so I don't think there is really an excuse for Ben to be as clueless as he is. You can say oh the group will vote but even if they voted to kick him out, how much better is that? You're basically condemning him to die anyway. Why waste resources and energy on someone worthless. Even Clem knows how to shoot and be a team member.
People will think dropping Ben is no different than agreeing with the ways of Crawford but that is not true. They were in a relatively safe location with a large number of people who could have afforded the handicap of sick or young people. We are a small group and every member needs to pull their weight.
I agree completely, I kind of wish there hadn't been multiple save slots released until Season 1 was finished. I played through naturally, made some mistakes and was happy with that, then Telltale fucked me with their game wiping bug.
He was a complete fuck up! He even knew it himself... So I let him fall down...
His fuck up cost at least 3 lifes... and almost killed the rest of the group in Ep 4. I'm just happy that he is gone!
All true more or less but does making mistakes justify killing him? As I've said already, what's in the past is done. If you drop him, you're doing it on the assumption that he'll fuck up again. That's a rather big ethical choice and is exactly what Crawford was about, ending a life because it MIGHT be a threat.
If he screws things up in EP 5, my conscience is clear. I've been the better man. I only wish he can make up for all his mistakes, for the sake of Clem.