I'm not a sheltered teenager. Far from it. I don't even like Ben as a character. I also can't justify letting him drop simply because I could or had the chance. From my standpoint, I had the time to drag him up and get his ass out, so I did. I don't think it's right to leave him behind, no matter what shit storms he was in the middle of. If everybody thought that way, Lee wouldn't even be alive because the world would be filled with a bunch of Larry types. Larry wanted to leave Lee behind in the same manner for similar reasons and honestly, he pissed me right the hell off for that.
Maybe he will screw up in the next episode. I'm almost counting on it. So what? It was my choice to make in my save game. Why does that have to bother you so much you have to start arguing with a random forum-goer about it? You're not going to change my mind and I'm not changing yours, so frankly, I'm done with this topic.
Evin, I picture you in a tweed jacket, patched elbows, sitting in you country cottage, with your smoking pipe, by a fireplace in your study, with your faithful hound resting at your side while you make these esoterically high minded assertions.
Admittedly, I'm no social anthropologist, but I have done some reading & your argument about early man circa 200,000 years ago.. well our tribal interactions were on scale with the social hierarchy of modern day chimpanzees.
Honestly, any examination of modern society beginning before the last ice age +/- 15,000 years ago is really irrelevant.
Hunter-Gatherer tribal societies didn't muse about the nature of man.
Civilization is itself a product of evolved agricultural societies where excess food stuff allowed for sedentary societies where man could leisurely navel gaze.
I'm sorry, but in Larrys words "I'll dig one grave" for you and your modern notions of civility and morality. You both perish together.
In my observations a group of teenagers from Rwanda who've never heard of moral ambiguity would have a better chance at survival than a group comprised of civilized educated westerners.
/shrug
But thats just my opinion. Okay. That's it. I'm really done now. :cool:
I just meant that being a teenager makes it easier to understand Ben because I am one. Putting myself in his shoes, I'd be just as scared as he was. Probably even more. You'd all kick me out of your groups in a ZA (or not even let me join for that matter) the first chance you got
But well, everyone seems to be done here and this has been a fun discussion, this is why I like the internet
Everyone. I think all of us should shut up. All were doing is going in circles and giving each other the same answer time and time again. I believe this is where we stop. Both decisions can be justified and not one choice is better than the other ( but I do have my own opinions ). I think this is where we put a truce. To each their own.
This would usually be the point in the debate where a third impartial party would decide who won based on the strength of the argument. Any volunteers?
seems to me the constant repeating of ben is human it is moral to save him
doesn't cut the mustard, just cos you don't want to kill a defenceless person and choosing to ignore all his faults and his current lack of skills isn't noble, it's stupid.
seems to me the constant repeating of ben is human it is moral to save him
doesn't cut the mustard, just cos you don't want to kill a defenceless person and choosing to ignore all his faults and his current lack of skills isn't noble, it's stupid.
oh really rachel ? you'd let me die would you ? hmm a death threat ? you know thats not allowed on these forums ? even as a 'joke' ?
i've just sent a pm to mod about that so i wonder if you'll get banned. since i was...
maybe if you lived in the present with what ben had currently done and brought to the table which is not alot as cthulhu put it earlier, you'd realise that waiting for ben to change could take a long time ASSUMING you and the group could survive long enough to turn a boy in to a man..
So if you were an old man with a heart condition that had just collapsed because of a heart attack, and you were locked in a room (in the zombie apocalypse) with your daughter a little girl and two men, and one of the men has a family in immanent danger.
what would you want? would you:
A) want everybody to risk their life in a nearly impossible attempt to revive you (risking turning into a zombie and killing everybody)
want to be taken out, so that you don't risk killing your daughter and the other people
from the way i saw the situation i would pick B
in the ben situation if you were depressed because everything you did just kept going wrong and you said to one of the others that everybody would be better off if you were dead.
of the two choices:
A) the guy agrees and drops you from a bell tower he disagrees and pulls you up
i would hope B happens
so the way i see it is that the most human thing to do is to do only do things you would pick to happen to you if the roles of the situation were reversed.
obviously everybody would have their own opinion on what they would want if the roles were reversed, but it would only be truly bad things that most people would agree would be a bad thing to happen to them
Oh, but you've been arguing 'till you're blue in the face, on several occasions that refusing to help someone who needs it, is not the same as murdering. Also it's permissible if the person in questions is detriment to the group, so of course, so I would be listening to your wishes, and would be putting the needs of the group first. Thirdly, it is not a threat. To yet again refer to, and quote someone who thinks of themselves as oh so intelligent,
"so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form.."
Btw, I don't think many arguments have been won by "your logic is bullshit". "you're stupid", "that's stupid" etc. Maybe you should work on your form.
again another thinly disguised insult 'who thins/thinks as oh so intelligent'
i did not put words in your mouth rach, that is how i perceived the comment and someone else pm'd me (thanks mal) about it so if others can see it it's isn't me who's to blame it is them for a failed attempt to circumvent the rules.
thing is when have i refused help ? ben GAVE UP, when i have actually said i'm going to murder ben ?
please tell me, as far as i know i have said why i wouldn't save him with reasons, to say murder shows premeditation, says i planned it, but i suppose cos he was at my mercy i chose the group over one boy, which is actually a morale decision in it's self like the needs of the many out weigh the few..
hey rachel why so serious ?
you speak of morals you speak of humanity and therefore by saying
you'd leave me till last and then probably drop me/not save, pretty much nullifies the entire argument for saving ben..
we know enough about ben through his actions, yet i am someone you don't know have never met, you think because of my way of commenting you know me ? and you'd just as easily condemn me ?
but of course it's all down to not agreeing on something, i dunno whats more pathetic, the fact you seem to complain about me, say ignore me and yet here you again bitchin at me ?
lol. Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious from the way you keep referencing to things I haven't even said, and the way you say you haven't said something, even when I take your words and directly use/quote them. So yeah, no one would win a debate against you.
Btw, I don't think many arguments have been won by "your logic is bullshit". "you're stupid", "that's stupid" etc. Maybe you should work on your form.
no they are won on the proof of bens actions, not gonna say them cos i feel if you ain't understanding his death count by now, you never will.
i guess i got you mixed up with evin and sonny sorry about that, kinda hard when you 3 are all saying the same things it all gets joined up..
i have no idea what i'm talking about ??! i played the game, like you must of done? are you honestly telling me ben has been a hero ? a man of action a man of amazing survival skills ? has laughed in the face of a rotting walker ? SERIOUSLY ?! wow rach omg wow..this is from a 'woman' who thought the station wagon we looted belonged to campman in ep2 ffs..LMFAO...
If we left everyone who's killed, or caused a death/s (whether directly or however indirectly). There wouldn't be many left. Not even little Clem would be innocent.
That wasn't an argument for saving Ben, that was just pointing a fact out. Few,if any of them are/would be innocent if we're going through indirect causes of deaths, as well as direct.
What sounds like Ben? I know, I was referring to Ben being an indirect cause, that's a point you keep using
Just imagine if ben didnt mess up watching clem
they wouldnt have found the boat in the shed
she found it when ben didnt know where she was
also if ben didnt mess up and clem didnt leave the house
molly would have killed lee
just save ben
oh really rachel ? you'd let me die would you ? hmm a death threat ? you know thats not allowed on these forums ? even as a 'joke' ?
i've just sent a pm to mod about that so i wonder if you'll get banned. since i was...
maybe if you lived in the present with what ben had currently done and brought to the table which is not alot as cthulhu put it earlier, you'd realise that waiting for ben to change could take a long time ASSUMING you and the group could survive long enough to turn a boy in to a man..
Larry's character wasn't a threat to anyone but Lee, but his zombie was a threat to everyone, regardless of that, the moral thing to do in my eyes was to try to save him regardless of the risk, I am strictly against the ends justify the means.
Took lilly with me because in my view its wrong to condemn someone who obviously is being overwhelmed with guilt and was already being overwhelmed by grief.
Saved Ben because letting someone die over afew mistakes is vindictive in my eyes which I strictly disagree with, plus I love Ben.
From my point of view allowing anyone to die when you could have saved them is wrong, or as Theodore Roosevelt said... you have 3 options, the first one is the best thing you can do, the other the second best, and the worst thing you can possibly do is nothing at all.
Killing Larry. Hopefully he was already dead and was about to reanimate and devour us all. Even if he wasn't dead, the risk was too great and he was unconscious and wouldn't have felt a thing.
Ben on the other hand would have felt his legs break and then teeth sink into his flesh. And this is for making some stupid mistakes.
Comments
Maybe he will screw up in the next episode. I'm almost counting on it. So what? It was my choice to make in my save game. Why does that have to bother you so much you have to start arguing with a random forum-goer about it? You're not going to change my mind and I'm not changing yours, so frankly, I'm done with this topic.
Admittedly, I'm no social anthropologist, but I have done some reading & your argument about early man circa 200,000 years ago.. well our tribal interactions were on scale with the social hierarchy of modern day chimpanzees.
Honestly, any examination of modern society beginning before the last ice age +/- 15,000 years ago is really irrelevant.
Hunter-Gatherer tribal societies didn't muse about the nature of man.
Civilization is itself a product of evolved agricultural societies where excess food stuff allowed for sedentary societies where man could leisurely navel gaze.
I'm sorry, but in Larrys words "I'll dig one grave" for you and your modern notions of civility and morality. You both perish together.
In my observations a group of teenagers from Rwanda who've never heard of moral ambiguity would have a better chance at survival than a group comprised of civilized educated westerners.
/shrug
But thats just my opinion. Okay. That's it. I'm really done now. :cool:
i feel a ban coming in my near future lol
But well, everyone seems to be done here and this has been a fun discussion, this is why I like the internet
Kenny forced the vote because he stopped everyone from going further and demanded that they abandon Ben there on the spot - forcing the vote.
Given how long that took, they had plenty of time to escape. Brie died as a direct result of forcing them to stop running.
All of which still doesn't justify letting Ben die. And for the record I ended ep 4 with everyone coming with Lee.
doesn't cut the mustard, just cos you don't want to kill a defenceless person and choosing to ignore all his faults and his current lack of skills isn't noble, it's stupid.
hence kill ben for the safety of the group wins
Your the last judge we'd pick.
besides it's you're...
trololol
oh really rachel ? you'd let me die would you ? hmm a death threat ? you know thats not allowed on these forums ? even as a 'joke' ?
i've just sent a pm to mod about that so i wonder if you'll get banned. since i was...
maybe if you lived in the present with what ben had currently done and brought to the table which is not alot as cthulhu put it earlier, you'd realise that waiting for ben to change could take a long time ASSUMING you and the group could survive long enough to turn a boy in to a man..
So if you were an old man with a heart condition that had just collapsed because of a heart attack, and you were locked in a room (in the zombie apocalypse) with your daughter a little girl and two men, and one of the men has a family in immanent danger.
what would you want? would you:
A) want everybody to risk their life in a nearly impossible attempt to revive you (risking turning into a zombie and killing everybody)
from the way i saw the situation i would pick B
in the ben situation if you were depressed because everything you did just kept going wrong and you said to one of the others that everybody would be better off if you were dead.
of the two choices:
A) the guy agrees and drops you from a bell tower
i would hope B happens
so the way i see it is that the most human thing to do is to do only do things you would pick to happen to you if the roles of the situation were reversed.
obviously everybody would have their own opinion on what they would want if the roles were reversed, but it would only be truly bad things that most people would agree would be a bad thing to happen to them
"so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form.."
Btw, I don't think many arguments have been won by "your logic is bullshit". "you're stupid", "that's stupid" etc. Maybe you should work on your form.
i did not put words in your mouth rach, that is how i perceived the comment and someone else pm'd me (thanks mal) about it so if others can see it it's isn't me who's to blame it is them for a failed attempt to circumvent the rules.
thing is when have i refused help ? ben GAVE UP, when i have actually said i'm going to murder ben ?
please tell me, as far as i know i have said why i wouldn't save him with reasons, to say murder shows premeditation, says i planned it, but i suppose cos he was at my mercy i chose the group over one boy, which is actually a morale decision in it's self like the needs of the many out weigh the few..
hey rachel why so serious ?
you speak of morals you speak of humanity and therefore by saying
you'd leave me till last and then probably drop me/not save, pretty much nullifies the entire argument for saving ben..
we know enough about ben through his actions, yet i am someone you don't know have never met, you think because of my way of commenting you know me ? and you'd just as easily condemn me ?
but of course it's all down to not agreeing on something, i dunno whats more pathetic, the fact you seem to complain about me, say ignore me and yet here you again bitchin at me ?
seriously rach give it up...
no they are won on the proof of bens actions, not gonna say them cos i feel if you ain't understanding his death count by now, you never will.
i guess i got you mixed up with evin and sonny sorry about that, kinda hard when you 3 are all saying the same things it all gets joined up..
i have no idea what i'm talking about ??! i played the game, like you must of done? are you honestly telling me ben has been a hero ? a man of action a man of amazing survival skills ? has laughed in the face of a rotting walker ? SERIOUSLY ?! wow rach omg wow..this is from a 'woman' who thought the station wagon we looted belonged to campman in ep2 ffs..LMFAO...
viser yeah i hear ya
yeah and?
sounds like ben doesn't it ?
clem would of found the boat anyway upon exploring the garage, regardless of ben.
hey you're honour i rest my case, on second thought,
fuck it i'm done
What sounds like Ben? I know, I was referring to Ben being an indirect cause, that's a point you keep using
they wouldnt have found the boat in the shed
she found it when ben didnt know where she was
also if ben didnt mess up and clem didnt leave the house
molly would have killed lee
just save ben
Well I never said I was.
Saved duck.
Larry's character wasn't a threat to anyone but Lee, but his zombie was a threat to everyone, regardless of that, the moral thing to do in my eyes was to try to save him regardless of the risk, I am strictly against the ends justify the means.
Took lilly with me because in my view its wrong to condemn someone who obviously is being overwhelmed with guilt and was already being overwhelmed by grief.
Saved Ben because letting someone die over afew mistakes is vindictive in my eyes which I strictly disagree with, plus I love Ben.
From my point of view allowing anyone to die when you could have saved them is wrong, or as Theodore Roosevelt said... you have 3 options, the first one is the best thing you can do, the other the second best, and the worst thing you can possibly do is nothing at all.
Ben on the other hand would have felt his legs break and then teeth sink into his flesh. And this is for making some stupid mistakes.