So who felt sorry for Ben?
I kept him alive after episode 4, and he had a really nice speech when fighting with Kenny.
He was basically saying that he never got to say goodbye to his parents (with his voice breaking and almost in a tear like state), and that at least kenny got to say goodbye to his.
He was a fuck up. I think he knew that pretty much as well. But I still forgave him, regardless of all the shit that came with him.:(
He was basically saying that he never got to say goodbye to his parents (with his voice breaking and almost in a tear like state), and that at least kenny got to say goodbye to his.
He was a fuck up. I think he knew that pretty much as well. But I still forgave him, regardless of all the shit that came with him.:(
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djj5wqSrNxA
Maybe people wouldn't hate Ben so much..
It was suicide for Kenny.
Yeah but there's a huge difference there. Ben performed actions that indirectly led to death without intentions to do so, and Lilly directly performed murder and wanted to do it. Plus i think it's more Carley's fault she got killed, not Ben's. If she had stayed quiet, Lilly would have eventually killed Ben if he didn't fess up or blame Carley, and probably kill him even if he did. She only killed Carley because she got tired of her crap and took a stand.
"Ben I agree, you should tell Kenny. Just not now, not while we're on a super dangerous mission."
"Yeah, I feeeeel you bro."
Yeah, yeah he's just a kid blablah. I'm 17, a year younger than Ben, and I can honestly say that in those situations I wouldn't be as dumb as Ben. It's true that I don't know what I'd be like, I'd probably be a mess, but I know I wouldn't:
A. Take the axe out of the door
B. Wouldn't make deals with bandits by myself
C. Wouldn't confess to a crime right when zombies are moments away from killing us
I'd also at least try to be respectful, especially after everything that I done. Literally the only time I liked Ben was when he talked back to Kenny. Every other time he was sitting there quietly killing everyone.
"Ben, where's Clementine?!"
"HOW SHOULD I KNOW! God."
She killed Carly because the truth hurt. Lol yes Lilly did perform murder. But Ben being a coward and not telling the truth and letting others take the bullet for you is also bad. Ben is so bad at one point Cleminte tells lee your leaving him to watch me. Lol basically a 9 year old realized how much of a coward he was and that she had more guts then him.
1. He had indirectly caused the death of multiple people. That was weighing down his conscience. I'm sure you don't know how you would react to that.
2. He has been treated like shit ever since he joined the group, with the only person not yelling at him all the time was a little girl.
3. You liked him when he talked back to Kenny, but not to you, after you've been almost as bad as Kenny was to him?
4. He made that deal with the bandits to keep the group safe. He didn't tell anyone about it, because everything he had done so far had made everyone shout about kicking him out of the group. If he had come to the group sooner Lily might have kicked him out or shot him. Even he was smart enough to know that.
Actually in episode 3 he states he made the deal because the bandits said they had his friend. He kept it going to keep the group safe.
A. Cowardice (Carley / Doug / Charles)
B. Stupidity (Brie)
C. Mistakes (Duck / Katjaa)
He can feel as bad as he wants but he still killed those people. It's true I don't know how I'd react but all I know is I would try my damnest for events like those not to occur again and I'd imagine I'd be remorseful, rather then randomly be pissed. How do you know this? Lilly probably treated him like shit only because she treats pretty much everyone like that. It's canon that Carley / Doug both cared about him (hell one of them died defending him and the other took a bullet for him). There's absolutely no way Katjaa treated him like shit, I'd imagine she would be somewhat motherly towards him, like she is to everyone (especially towards the kids). Duck, while being stupid, is also by no means mean. Clem obviously liked him, I actually question if she had a small crush on him. My Lee was not mean to him too. I'd imagine Kenny and Ben didn't communicate much. Eh, I don't know about you but my Lee was pretty understanding and caring towards Ben despite knowing the truth. Worst thing I said to him was that if he put Clementine in danger again there'd be trouble (little did I know he'd put Clem in danger twice more in the same episode :rolleyes:). Don't get me wrong I don't think he deserved to die, I just don't like him and feel very little sympathy towards him. Only person who would be pissed is Lilly, literally everyone (except maybe Kenny) would want him to stay and defend him. He should have at least told Lee then the whole assault would not have happened. Instead he holds it in. Maybe it wouldn't be the greatest idea while on the roadside when Lilly reached her breaking point, he was afraid of being kicked out. Maybe Lilly would have even shot him, but if he did tell the truth there I'd have so much more respect for him.
My point being is that I don't like how Ben is acquitted for being a coward, a jerk, a liability, and a dumb ass simply because he is 18.
Ben was a complete mess but he did what he thought was needed. Everyone did.
He didn't kill any of those people. Killing someone requires direct involvement in bringing their life to an end. He made mistakes and people ended up dead. That's regrettable but it isn't the same as killing them. If the player makes a choice to save Doug, do they kill Carley? No. The walkers do it.
And Katjaa fell by her own hand. That was all on her. Kenny powered through. She was weak and selfish.
The characters that have "died because of Ben" didn't. Chuck and Doug died like heroes, and you should respect their sacrifice. Carley's death is only Lilly's fault. Duck was bit. Katjaa made a choice, she took her life because she couldn't lve without her son. Brie's death is also her own fault.
Why?
Katjaa killed herself because she succumb to the pain of losing a child. A pain no parent should ever have to go through. Ben is the reason why Duck was bitten, the reason she felt that pain and killed herself.
"... I love our son more than life itself..."
Ben did not clamp a walker's teeth down onto Duck. Ben did not pull the trigger when Katjaa put a gun to her own head.
Duck's death was a tragedy that could have happened just as well without Ben. Katjaa's death was a suicide and she ALONE is responsible. And wasn't Duck bitten before Ben ever showed up? Kat and Kenny said he wasn't but they aren't the most reliable sources in that scenario...
@Kaserkin: Ben would have been waiting forever. Kenny never would have accepted it. It was only via Ben telling him (or, more accurately, the resulting argument and Ben's outburst) that Kenny calmed his shit down and saw some reason.
Oh, so it's cause and effect then? So where is the causality?
The cause of Duck's death was a walker bite. Ben is not the reason for that bite any more than Clementine was the reason for Lee's. Shit happens. How, exactly, did Ben's actions make that walker bite Duck? They didn't. Walkers bite people. No causality there.
The cause of Kat's death was a bullet flying into her brain. That was her choice and had nothing to do with Ben. Kenny lost a child too. He survived. Why? He chose to. Kat's death was the result of her own choice and action. No causality there either.
Read my post above. Ben has no responsability over those death, except maybe for Brie.
@Ygdrasel: It wasn't the right moment. Patience is the key in everything. One day Kenny would have been ready for it, and Ben could choose better words than "it's all my fault".
B. Lee finds the supplies, bandits don't get it.
C. Bandits attack.
D. Gunfire attracts the walkers.
E. Walker bites Duck.
F. Katjaa was left in a state of depression due to the bite.
G. Katjaa kills herself due to her depressed state.
You're just being nitpicky, I could just as easily say "Ben indirectly caused the death of ____." Does it really even matter.
Oh well, on the next episode he died, so just one more day before his life was over.
Kat died because she was selfish and weak. Period.
Analogy Time!
Let's say a friend and I are on an island and out of food. I send him to find some fruit or something and along the way, he's bitten by some animal. The bite gets infected and he dies. What caused his death?
Me? I just sent him on a food run. I can't read the future.
The animal? Indirectly. It paved the way for the culprit.
Germs. Germs entered the wound and began the infection. That is the cause. And let's say his wife kills herself after hearing the news?
In that scenario, I made a choice that I thought beneficial. It ended badly but I'm not responsible for that end. It was out of my hands. But by your logic, I've just killed a guy and his wife, caused their deaths, am personally responsible for the end of their existence. You really can't see the flaw in that thinking?
The virus (what kills and reanimates them) is the direct cause of Duck's death. Walkers were the indirect cause for delivering the virus. Ben is just a guy who made a choice that ended badly. He thought his choice was for the best. He was wrong. It happens. In fact, it happens a ton to Lee himself throughout the game.
I'm with you. When judging a person's worthiness — which is what we're really talking about here — intent is the key issue.
So Ben is shitty around walkers. Duh. But who's decision was it to bring him to Crawford? The adults.
Lee knew Ben was no good under pressure and freezes in the clutch. Hell, Ben was less suited for their mission to Crawford than Clem. But the game forces you to take him. I'm not complaining to TTG about that, that's what the point of the whole subplot was and the theme of the episode: Are you like the folks from Crawford or not?
But if you had infinite freedom in the game I'd have said the characters should have left him behind to mind Omid and Clem (I left her at the mansion in my playthrough). Then it would have been her and him against that walker. And yes, I imagine Clem would have had to save him, but at least he wouldn't have opened the gates for the horde.
Well in ep 5 he kills a few walkers when they make a stand. But I guess that was because he had no other choice than to fight.
However, from the perspective of someone "immersed" in Lee's character, I hated Ben. His stupidity caused a chain of events that resulted in the deaths of many good people. So from an emotional perspective, I find it hard to forgive him even though, objectively, I hear ya. But then again, it's tough for people to be objective.
I've only saved Ben in episode 5 for two reasons. First Clem and Carley, the two characters I felt most connected to, would have wanted me too. Second, I was hoping to see a big heroic moment of redemption. Sadly, Kenny died instead with Ben.
He redeemed himself to me when he was the only one who came with me to find Clementine. I saved him for the sake of the group. We didn't have many left.
Hey, don't blame Ben for the existence of the Idiot Ball in storytelling. As flawed a character as Ben was, he's always been about survival, so to me that seemed out of character for him.
Something always has to go wrong in a horror movie, or a horror game, in order for there to be tension and drama. That's not Ben's fault.
"Everything is changing..."
"... I love our son more than life itself..."
"Do you know how many nights Katjaa would spend pleading for me to be nicer to the group... every night."
Regardless I never thought she'd take her life. She seemed stronger than that and I actually somewhat believe it was OOC of her. This isn't going anywhere. I honestly give Ben partial blame for their deaths, the other blame rests with Lilly due to her inability to leave the motel and her "scary" outlook (which is likely responsible for Ben being unable to tell the group). The difference between the two scenarios is that what Ben did was traitorous and consequences were bound to happen sooner or later.
God knows the characters in the game agree with me, and that's good enough for me because it shows Telltale wanted to put blame on Ben:
"Ben think about it. Without you the bandits would not have attacked, Duck would never have been bitten."
"It's all my fault, all my fault."
"YOU GOT MY WIFE AND SON KILLED!" He didn't really put up much of a due diligence either. I don't think he's evil, he's well-intentioned... he's just an idiot.
I was surprised too that she took her own life though I understand why she would do so. I like Katjaa's character even though her dialogue/screen time was limited compared to others. She was a kind person. I sometimes wonder how Lilly's kangaroo court would have turned out if Katjaa was there to perhaps lessen the tension.
No disagreement here whatsoever. I definitely place some blame on Ben.
Lets say a man goes to a bar, gets drunk, and decides to drive on home. On the way home he is so inebriated that he accidentally drives in the wrong lane. An oncoming car sees him approaching and swerves out of the way, only to lose control and collide with a tree, killing all the occupants.
Would the drunk driver be responsible for the deaths of those people, even though it was unintentional and his vehicle did not strike them? Of course he would, and the courts would hold him liable for it.
Like the drunk driver in that example, Ben caused the deaths of Katjaa and Duck. His actions were directly responsible for their deaths.
You're missing something here. The driver in your analogy is guilty of getting drunk in the first place. Ben (a naive 17-yr-old kid who's scared out of his mind) has no choice about how good his judgment is.
By your reasoning Clem is to blame for the deaths of Lee, Kenny and Ben, depending on your play-through.
But you can't hold the judgment of a nine-year-old girl to the same standards as an adult, and you can't hold the judgment of a high-schooler to those standards either. Chuck pointed out that Ben was a kid, while the rest of the cast kept ignoring him. It wasn't until Ben lost his temper in ep. 5 that Kenny realized the mistake he'd made in expecting him to be brighter and more grown up.
Because odds are if Duck had reached the age of 17 he'd have been a lot like Ben.
No. Duck would drop out high school
That's probably how it would really turn out in the end. As nice as it would have been to see Ben redeem himself, we don't get situations like those just because we strive for them. Fear is a powerful thing, and difficult to overcome, especially for a young kid like Ben.