Maybe it would have helped, maybe it wouldn't have, but i could have had respect for him if he had done that. Stepped up to the plate to take the heat off a friend. That's the problem, I dont hate Ben, but when everyone needs each other you can't respect a coward. Its the same thing that makes him leave clem. He doesn't mean it and it shows in his guilt, but... come on man!
Cowardliness is a major character flaw in him. But pretty much everyone in the game has some major character flaw, whether it's hot-headness, inability to shoot, preoccupation with one or two members of the group at the behest of or threat to everyone else in the group, etc.
He does find stickers for Clem and probably plays with her, he does try to help (though he often fails to), and by Episode 5 he does let other people go before him to safety, so it kind of seems he somewhat starts to get over his cowardliness.
If you notice, he was hanging out with Kenny, who was getting drunk off his *** and probably talking about his family TO Ben, who was feeling guilty about giving supplies to the bandits and like Katjaa's and Duck's deaths were his fault. His emotional state was probably wrecked (this is confirmed when he tells Lee he has to be honest with Kenny at the school), and I gather that is why he didn't keep his eye on Clementine.
(...) thinking he killed Kenny's family (...) he even thinks Clem can take care of herself better than he can take care of her.
I'm not justifying Ben's ineptitude (...) At the end of the day, shouldn't Kenny, who is also an adult, feel some sort of responsibility for watching a little girl, even if he's lost his own family? I don't think it's heartless of me to say that.
Yeah he was busy with Kenny and had stuff on his mind, but he at least could've made Clem stay somewhere around (inside) so he could at least watch her somehow, I get your point he was an emotional wreck at that time, but in a ZA you gotta get your shit together and grieve whenever you got the time. Now that you mentioned it he really thinks he did kill his family whether it really was his fault or not, but if he thinks it was his faul, why doesn't he at least try to do something right THIS time, i don't get it and his statement when you confront him "I'm really doing the best here i can" is just stupid, he sits on his ass and lets Kenny, who is one of the few group members, who can fight get drunk, he could've taken that bottle away from him, even if Kenny then maybe had punched him. Kenny's another thing, he did quite some mistakes too, but he also did SOME things right, Ben didn't, yeah he grabbed Lee's Glock when we were escaping, that really makes up for Crawford i guess. Still Kenny has his problems, and occasionally fucks up too, we actually could open a thread about him as well, but Ben... you pretty much said it: Clem can take care of herself better than Ben could, how comes that teenager can't get as much done as the 9-year old girl? She's got heavy shit on her mind too, I don't think she is stupid so she probably knows her parents might or might NOT be alright, and she IS scared of walkers, but unlike Ben she can focus for a little time and be useful once in a while. That might just be because she has somebody like Lee to encourage her, and to guide her, and Ben doesn't, i don't blame him completly for everything, but for some things. I mean the axe-door-handle thing, that was really, really, really (x10) ... stupid, it was the door, through which they came in. :eek:
I like Ben as a person, but he has no idea how to handle tough situations.
Yeah i liked him as a person in the end too, but he is not realiable in a ZA, and definitly nobody you want to have around in such a scenario... :rolleyes:
Yeah he was busy with Kenny and had stuff on his mind, but he at least could've made Clem stay somewhere around (inside) so he could at least watch her somehow, I get your point he was an emotional wreck at that time, but in a ZA you gotta get your shit together and grieve whenever you got the time. Now that you mentioned it he really thinks he did kill his family whether it really was his fault or not, but if he thinks it was his faul, why doesn't he at least try to do something right THIS time, i don't get it and his statement when you confront him "I'm really doing the best here i can" is just stupid, he sits on his ass and lets Kenny, who is one of the few group members, who can fight get drunk, he could've taken that bottle away from him, even if Kenny then maybe had punched him. Kenny's another thing, he did quite some mistakes too, but he also did SOME things right, Ben didn't, yeah he grabbed Lee's Glock when we were escaping, that really makes up for Crawford i guess. Still Kenny has his problems, and occasionally fucks up too, we actually could open a thread about him as well, but Ben... you pretty much said it: Clem can take care of herself better than Ben could, how comes that teenager can't get as much done as the 9-year old girl? She's got heavy shit on her mind too, I don't think she is stupid so she probably knows her parents might or might NOT be alright, and she IS scared of walkers, but unlike Ben she can focus for a little time and be useful once in a while. That might just be because she has somebody like Lee to encourage her, and to guide her, and Ben doesn't, i don't blame him completly for everything, but for some things. I mean the axe-door-handle thing, that was really, really, really (x10) ... stupid, it was the door, through which they came in. :eek:
Yeah i liked him as a person in the end too, but he is not realiable in a ZA, and definitly nobody you want to have around in such a scenario... :rolleyes:
I think Carley might have been able to put some seed in his manhood, but Lilly took care of that.
i think it's highly likely Ben had more than two friends in the entire world. Plus, if Lee chooses to threaten Ben when he reveals that he was the one giving them supplies, why would he lie? Lee outright says he can toss him off the train and nobody would know. There was absolutely no reason to lie there, especially if he knew his life was in danger.
I think Ben giving them supplies had no beneficial effects whatsoever. The bandits stopped attacking, but in a way i think this was worse. They completely halted all the attacks, giving the group a false sense of security, as if they had forgotten about them. Thus they let their guard down, and were unprepared for the sudden raid the bandits launched when they didn't find the supplies.
Had Ben not given them supplies, the group would have been more alert and always prepared due to the constant attacks.
well I can think of a few benefits starting with the a halt to the depletion of ammunition, of medical supplies to treat wounded, the time and opportunity to make runs into town to resupply and not have the constant threat of attacks by the bandits on those making the runs, not having to fight a war on two fronts they already were at war with the walkers if your fighting bandits also it doubles the depletion rate of supplies and doubles the threat of attack. It also doesn't appear to me that the group was letting their guard down. There was a constant lookout, defenses were being repaired and strengthened, they were making runs into town to replenish supplies. I don't believe that the sudden and unexplained cease of hostilities would have caused the group to drop thier guard against the bandits much as it didn't against the walkers. The bandits were much more dangerous than the walkers, able to think, scheme, and coordinate, no I believe the sudden cessation of attacks by them would have heightened the suspicions and expectations of the group. Ben's choice of supplying the bandits with meds to halt thier attacks was a viable one, lets face it the bandits had the upper hand here and it was just a matter of time before they got what they wanted. His big mistake was not going to the group with the deal and letting all decide. Then the two best choices would been taking the deal or packing everything up and hauling ass before the bandits caught on.
well I can think of a few benefits starting with the a halt to the depletion of ammunition, of medical supplies to treat wounded, the time and opportunity to make runs into town to resupply and not have the constant threat of attacks by the bandits on those making the runs, not having to fight a war on two fronts they already were at war with the walkers if your fighting bandits also it doubles the depletion rate of supplies and doubles the threat of attack. It also doesn't appear to me that the group was letting their guard down. There was a constant lookout, defenses were being repaired and strengthened, they were making runs into town to replenish supplies. I don't believe that the sudden and unexplained cease of hostilities would have caused the group to drop thier guard against the bandits much as it didn't against the walkers. The bandits were much more dangerous than the walkers, able to think, scheme, and coordinate, no I believe the sudden cessation of attacks by them would have heightened the suspicions and expectations of the group. Ben's choice of supplying the bandits with meds to halt thier attacks was a viable one, lets face it the bandits had the upper hand here and it was just a matter of time before they got what they wanted. His big mistake was not going to the group with the deal and letting all decide. Then the two best choices would been taking the deal or packing everything up and hauling ass before the bandits caught on.
We saw how well a attack on the motor inn worked. More than half of the bandits ended up dead or woundend and later dead. They acted more than stupid and should have acted in a other way, when they wanted to kill everybody there. Even if they wanted to threaten everyone to give them the medical supplies and food they have.
We saw how well a attack on the motor inn worked. More than half of the bandits ended up dead or woundend and later dead. They acted more than stupid and should have acted in a other way, when they wanted to kill everybody there. Even if they wanted to threaten everyone to give them the medical supplies and food they have.
That's cause Lee (and potentially Carley) had super-shooting skills.
Lol, and they would not have them when the Bandits attacked earlier?!?
The Bandits didn't attack before, they just harassed them (arrows in the wall). It also made a huge difference that it was Ben on watch who was expecting them and so didn't raise the alarm. Had it been Carley or Lilly they probably wouldn't have got close.
Kenny isn't the "leader of the group." Depending on how you play, Lilly can be, or Lee can claim they're "Democratic." In fact, Kenny seems to argue that the group should be more democratic whereas Lilly wants to run an empire.
Ben didn't kill anyone. The bandits did. And Ben's actions did get them to stop attacking, so he might have helped bring about a couple weeks of peace. I think Lee should have gone to help Clem, Katja, and Duck prior to Ben and Doug/Carley. That would have prevented Duck from being bitten.
Katja chooses to kill herself.
Doug and Carley choose to protect Ben - because he's A TEEN BOY.
Chuck put himself in harm's way. Ben couldn't have protected Clem, or he might have but then would have wound up getting killed. (He would have run out of bullets. Chuck had a shovel.) At any rate, if anything maybe Ben should have grabbed Clem's hand and tried to run.
Kenny chooses to give up his life to be with Ben. Ben doesn't cause that.
It's not that I dislike Kenny. He's one of my favorite characters. But he does choose to be a coward when it comes to helping out anybody but his family and those who go above and beyond to help his family.
As for Ben - he does contribute to the group. He's often lookout (at the motel, at the train), he gets Lee's gun for him, and especially in Episode 5 he's the last one up the attic stairs and the last one jumping off the balcony. At the end of the day, he is just a teen boy, and expectations of him cannot be the same as that of a grown man.
First lets look at episode 3.
Really? Why sneak needed supplies away from the people you care about and give them to bandits? Why not tell the group what is going on and make a decision on how to proceed as a group? Instead he steals from his friends and ultimately brings the bandits down on the group. Resulting in Duck getting bitten, Carley/Doug getting shot. Lilly getting thrown out/leaving the group. And katja killing herself.
None of this would have happened if Ben hadnt made secret deals with bandits.
Now, Lets look at Episode 4.
Ben and Clem are trapped by walkers. Lee Yells at Ben to save Clem. Ben looks at Clem then runs away, leaving Clem defenseless until a person with common sense saves her and ultimately gives up his life for her.
You have to ask the question, if it is going to be you or a 9 year old girl to get ripped apart by walkers, who would it be? Would you be a selfish prick who leaves a 9 year old to get eaten, or would you be a hero who sacrifices your life for a child. Bens actions are that of a coward and could have easily left Clementine dead. Not Acceptable.
Not to mention he got Vernans lady friend killed by removing the hatchet from the door keeping the walkers out. Also putting everyone in the group in danger.
How about we look at Episode 5 now.
He did grab Lees gun for him. Even though it was empty.
In the end, his death was sad and I did vouch for him, for Clems sake. But I didnt like it. He was still a moron who caused almost everything bad to happen.
Really? Why sneak needed supplies away from the people you care about and give them to bandits? Why not tell the group what is going on and make a decision on how to proceed as a group? Instead he steals from his friends and ultimately brings the bandits down on the group. Resulting in Duck getting bitten, Carley/Doug getting shot. Lilly getting thrown out/leaving the group. And katja killing herself.
He was scared of Lilly. That doesn't justify him not telling others, but I have an inkling he might have told Carley (if you saved her). She was also up high, watching, even without a gun, in the direction of the "X." And she defended him from Lilly's accusations.
Also, he wasn't a moron. He made up a communication system for the bandits that could have easily been deduced as the kids' scribbles.
We saw how well a attack on the motor inn worked. More than half of the bandits ended up dead or woundend and later dead. They acted more than stupid and should have acted in a other way, when they wanted to kill everybody there. Even if they wanted to threaten everyone to give them the medical supplies and food they have.
actually there was no way to assess the number of bandits that died during the attack since we don't know how many there were in the first place or witnessed the events once the group escaped. we do know what saved the group from total annihilation was a hasty retreat not a battle to the last man. in the end the bandits got the supplies and weapons they wanted that the group left behind, IF they survived the walkers that is. yes the bandits could not be called military geniuses if in any of their attacks they would have had gunmen climb the trees and fire down overtop of the barricade from cover the group could have suffered unrecoverable losses. or they could have waited them out and set siege to the motel, not letting them make runs for food and water, and saved the ammo, and not risked the danger of a gun battle. no they weren't smart, but they were smarter than walkers, and therefore a bigger threat.
I don't hate Ben, even though I've called him retarded a few times. He is, but I don't hate him. He's also (or at least used to be) a huge coward. Personally, I agree that handing the bandits some supplies so that they stop trying to murder us is a good thing, but only as long as everyone knows about it. What if Lee got shot, or broke a leg on a supply run to Macon? Kenny barely manages to haul him back to the motor inn, blood everywhere and walkers on their tail, Lee starts to fade, so Lilly runs to get some medicine. But wait! There's a plot twist! There's not enough medicine to save him because someone didn;t let the group know that they didn't have as may supplies as they thought they did. Lee dies. Stuff like that could have happened to anyone because Ben never told the group. If he'd come forward with the bandits' offer before the raid, and asked what I thought, I'd tell him he was actually pretty smart to think of ggetting the bandits off our backs that way. Hell, I'd even go up to Lilly and say "We should really do this, sooner or later the bandits will get lucky." But nope. He kept it from us, which resulted in the raid. Then the group imploded.
I'm not saying it was solely Ben. Everyone in the group had a part in its failure. Larry being an asshole to anyone who wasn't named Lilly, Kenny and Lilly always fighting to be the leader, Carley/Doug, Lee, Mark, and Katjaa for not getting more involved and letting the two of them slug it out like they did. Kenny killing Larry (even though I sided with him and think it had to be done, this was still an important factor). Ben's majorly stupid handling of the bandit situation was the final straw that broke the group, but it could have been prevented, or at least lessened if he'd actually come forward earlier.
It's just a shame he dies no matter what. I actually started to warm up to the kid in Episode 5 (secondary save file. I dropped him in my main play). He actually stands up for himself, and doesn't feel obligated to always agree with Kenny because of Kat and Duck. He gains confidence and competence. When the walkers are breaking down the doors and storming the house, he isn't panicking. He's actively helping the group hold the line, and even manages to shoot two walkers in the stand at the attic ladder, which is quite impressive since we've never seen him fire a gun until that point. He has enough of what few wits he has about him, and saves Carley's Glock for Lee when he drops it. He even actually manages to be really quiet in the alley for someone who just got impaled through the chest by a metal spike after falling two stories. When the walkers are closing in, he doesn't say "Save me, please!", he just says "Don't let them get me!" He realized exactly how bad the situation was, and wanted them to just shoot him and run instead of dying trying to save him. Given enough time, he could have become an important and able member of the group. RIPieces Ben.
I don't hate Ben, even though I've called him retarded a few times. He is, but I don't hate him. He's also (or at least used to be) a huge coward. Personally, I agree that handing the bandits some supplies so that they stop trying to murder us is a good thing, but only as long as everyone knows about it. What if Lee got shot, or broke a leg on a supply run to Macon? Kenny barely manages to haul him back to the motor inn, blood everywhere and walkers on their tail, Lee starts to fade, so Lilly runs to get some medicine. But wait! There's a plot twist! There's not enough medicine to save him because someone didn;t let the group know that they didn't have as may supplies as they thought they did. Lee dies. Stuff like that could have happened to anyone because Ben never told the group. If he'd come forward with the bandits' offer before the raid, and asked what I thought, I'd tell him he was actually pretty smart to think of ggetting the bandits off our backs that way. Hell, I'd even go up to Lilly and say "We should really do this, sooner or later the bandits will get lucky." But nope. He kept it from us, which resulted in the raid. Then the group imploded.
It seems that most of what Ben took for the bandits were hard drugs like Oxycontin for them to get high off of, not so much food or "necessary" medicine.
Having drugs to relieve pain would be nice, but not necessary to heal someone from bad injury or illness.
I agree 100% he should have confided in someone who wasn't Lilly, especially if Lee had been super-nice to him, but I have an inkling he might have in Carley just by the way she acted and where she was standing during the beginning of Episode 3.
He even actually manages to be really quiet in the alley for someone who just got impaled through the chest by a metal spike after falling two stories.
I think he was numb/in shock at that point. He does say he thinks he hurt his leg; he probably can't even feel the spike in his chest (So I can't give him kudos for not screaming/carrying him on there!)
Oh another thing, he slipped the bandits supplies because they said they had a friend of his as a hostage, didn't he? I bet my ass he didn't even ask them something like: "okay, if you have my friend, what's his name?" Those are people who kill other people, attack them, threaten them, but Ben believes that there is no way they would lie to him?
It seems that most of what Ben took for the bandits were hard drugs like Oxycontin for them to get high off of, not so much food or "necessary" medicine.
Having drugs to relieve pain would be nice, but not necessary to heal someone from bad injury or illness.
I agree 100% he should have confided in someone who wasn't Lilly, especially if Lee had been super-nice to him, but I have an inkling he might have in Carley just by the way she acted and where she was standing during the beginning of Episode 3.
It would have made sense to tell Carley. She comes across as quite understanding and Lilly implies they spoke a lot, but i don't think he did.
She speaks to Lee in that very scene about how its better his secret is revealed by him rather than Lilly so if she knew she'd probably have said the same to Ben rather than ask Lee to investigate and potentially have him get found out.
I think he was numb/in shock at that point. He does say he thinks he hurt his leg; he probably can't even feel the spike in his chest (So I can't give him kudos for not screaming/carrying him on there!)
Well, shock or not, he looks at the thing so he knows its in there. In his defense, I would have probably screamed "What the fuck?!" in his position. I mean, seriously. After seeing the spike through him, Ben finally knew what Lee and the player felt in Crawford when he showed them his borrowed hatchet.
I'm sure others already know but I only found this out recently.You can have Lee interact with Ben when he's choosing what to do with the teacher caught in the bear trap,I can't believe that I always missed this in my previous playthroughs!
Lee can talk with Ben 3 or 4 times and try to reassure him(he's panicking,what a surprise!) until Lee finally tells him to shut up and Ben answers back with "screw you man!" and then storms off
it made me laugh.
Well, shock or not, he looks at the thing so he knows its in there. In his defense, I would have probably screamed "What the fuck?!" in his position. I mean, seriously. After seeing the spike through him, Ben finally knew what Lee and the player felt in Crawford when he showed them his borrowed hatchet.
My impression was that the impact/pain/blood loss was making him delirious. He actually seemed quite happy at one point.
I don't hate Ben, even though I've called him retarded a few times. He is, but I don't hate him. He's also (or at least used to be) a huge coward. Personally, I agree that handing the bandits some supplies so that they stop trying to murder us is a good thing, but only as long as everyone knows about it. What if Lee got shot, or broke a leg on a supply run to Macon? Kenny barely manages to haul him back to the motor inn, blood everywhere and walkers on their tail, Lee starts to fade, so Lilly runs to get some medicine. But wait! There's a plot twist! There's not enough medicine to save him because someone didn;t let the group know that they didn't have as may supplies as they thought they did. Lee dies. Stuff like that could have happened to anyone because Ben never told the group. If he'd come forward with the bandits' offer before the raid, and asked what I thought, I'd tell him he was actually pretty smart to think of ggetting the bandits off our backs that way. Hell, I'd even go up to Lilly and say "We should really do this, sooner or later the bandits will get lucky." But nope. He kept it from us, which resulted in the raid. Then the group imploded.
I'm not saying it was solely Ben. Everyone in the group had a part in its failure. Larry being an asshole to anyone who wasn't named Lilly, Kenny and Lilly always fighting to be the leader, Carley/Doug, Lee, Mark, and Katjaa for not getting more involved and letting the two of them slug it out like they did. Kenny killing Larry (even though I sided with him and think it had to be done, this was still an important factor). Ben's majorly stupid handling of the bandit situation was the final straw that broke the group, but it could have been prevented, or at least lessened if he'd actually come forward earlier.
It's just a shame he dies no matter what. I actually started to warm up to the kid in Episode 5 (secondary save file. I dropped him in my main play). He actually stands up for himself, and doesn't feel obligated to always agree with Kenny because of Kat and Duck. He gains confidence and competence. When the walkers are breaking down the doors and storming the house, he isn't panicking. He's actively helping the group hold the line, and even manages to shoot two walkers in the stand at the attic ladder, which is quite impressive since we've never seen him fire a gun until that point. He has enough of what few wits he has about him, and saves Carley's Glock for Lee when he drops it. He even actually manages to be really quiet in the alley for someone who just got impaled through the chest by a metal spike after falling two stories. When the walkers are closing in, he doesn't say "Save me, please!", he just says "Don't let them get me!" He realized exactly how bad the situation was, and wanted them to just shoot him and run instead of dying trying to save him. Given enough time, he could have become an important and able member of the group. RIPieces Ben.
I agree with alot of what you say here bud, I believe most of the meds that the bandits wanted were opium based, at least I think I recall Lilly informing Lee that most of the missing meds were, and were obviously used by the group as painkillers, but probably by the bandits to get high. Good to ease the pain but no real medicinal value. There must have been some anti-biotics but it seems the bandits were looking more to party than for any healing properties.
I agree with alot of what you say here bud, I believe most of the meds that the bandits wanted were opium based, at least I think I recall Lilly informing Lee that most of the missing meds were, and were obviously used by the group as painkillers, but probably by the bandits to get high. Good to ease the pain but no real medicinal value. There must have been some anti-biotics but it seems the bandits were looking more to party than for any healing properties.
I thought she said that the anti-biotics were going missing as well. Run out of those without knowing it, and someone is going to have a very bad day the next time they get sick.
Oh another thing, he slipped the bandits supplies because they said they had a friend of his as a hostage, didn't he? I bet my ass he didn't even ask them something like: "okay, if you have my friend, what's his name?" Those are people who kill other people, attack them, threaten them, but Ben believes that there is no way they would lie to him?
Playing the game again, I notice Ben says "he" in reference to the friend the bandits supposedly kidnapped, which means they didn't keep a female companion of his as a sex slave. Which means:
1) yeah, that was pretty stupid of Ben
2) he really was lying to Lee about why he was helping about the bandits
She speaks to Lee in that very scene about how its better his secret is revealed by him rather than Lilly so if she knew she'd probably have said the same to Ben rather than ask Lee to investigate and potentially have him get found out.
good point. she can't know for sure if she says it's smart for Lee to follow up on stolen supplies.
Well, shock or not, he looks at the thing so he knows its in there. In his defense, I would have probably screamed "What the fuck?!" in his position. I mean, seriously. After seeing the spike through him, Ben finally knew what Lee and the player felt in Crawford when he showed them his borrowed hatchet.
I think Ben knew what that "borrowed" hatchet meant as soon as the zombies busted through the glass doors :P
He was scared of Lilly. That doesn't justify him not telling others, but I have an inkling he might have told Carley (if you saved her). She was also up high, watching, even without a gun, in the direction of the "X." And she defended him from Lilly's accusations.
Also, he wasn't a moron. He made up a communication system for the bandits that could have easily been deduced as the kids' scribbles.
He WAS cowardly in the face of imminent danger.
Speculation of Carley knowing is grabbing at straws. No sense in hypotheticals either.
When the Bandits broke in, she obviously wasnt on the balcony as she was before, because she was held at gun point on the ground. If the bandits yelled for her to come down the others, like Lee and Lilly would have known something was up before they found out later.
He drew an X with pink chalk. He through a piece of equipment valued by the group (Flashlight) in the garbage for anyone to see. He left a Scuff of pink chalk leading out of the gate. Yes he was definitely not a moron.
People tell you who they really are when they are faced with a difficult situation. If Ben was a coward when it mattered most... I would not trust that prick with my child.
Lee yells at Ben about not watching Clem regardless of whether or not you entrust him with doing so, though, no?
Haha well its a given. Its everyones responsibility to keep Clem Safe. If Lee cant get to her in time, whoever is closest is responsible for her safety. I would be pissed if my little girl was trapped with someone and they just left her for dead. If im not around to protect my girl, i will trust that the member of my group will. And if they dont :mad: They better pray to whoever they believe in because I wouldnt have just yelled at Ben for leaving my girl out to die, I would have beat him to a pulp. :mad:
Haha well its a given. Its everyones responsibility to keep Clem Safe. If Lee cant get to her in time, whoever is closest is responsible for her safety. I would be pissed if my little girl was trapped with someone and they just left her for dead. If im not around to protect my girl, i will trust that the member of my group will. And if they dont :mad: They better pray to whoever they believe in because I wouldnt have just yelled at Ben for leaving my girl out to die, I would have beat him to a pulp. :mad:
I meant when you actually yell at Ben for not watching her.
Granted, she "escaped" when he was helping Christa drag Omid up the stairs, so I think Lee should have been yelling at Kenny for getting drunk and not being the one to help drag his ass up.
I wasn't all that mad at Kenny. Out of everyone in the group, he was the one who would be most likely to end up with a bottle. His family died just the day before, and he learned they were all fucked. Christa needs to take care of Omid, leaving Ben. The guy who I specifically instructed to watch over Clementine while Ken and I were down by the river. Yeah, I picked that dialogue option. He had to start making up for the shit with the bandits and leaving Clem in the street. So, figuring the house was as safe a place as any to let my adopted 9-year-old hang around an idiotic, cowardly, traitor, I certainly was surprised when she showed up on River Street. Not that I needed her help anyway, after taking Molly down like a boss.
As Lee said to Ben when he got back : "You had one job." And then he said he let her play outside. In the backyard. Alone and unsupervised. Surrounded by walkers. Being stalked by a mysterious entity likely hell-bent on killing us all, then kidnapping Clem. And this was after letting her get out and wander around a walker infested city all by herself. Then he tells me to lay off. I had it with him then.
The Bandits didn't attack before, they just harassed them (arrows in the wall). It also made a huge difference that it was Ben on watch who was expecting them and so didn't raise the alarm. Had it been Carley or Lilly they probably wouldn't have got close.
Actually, there's bullet holes in the wall too; one doesn't waste ammunition they can't readily replace for weeks (timeframe given by Kenny) unless they're pants on head retarded or actually attacking.
It seems that most of what Ben took for the bandits were hard drugs like Oxycontin for them to get high off of, not so much food or "necessary" medicine.
Having drugs to relieve pain would be nice, but not necessary to heal someone from bad injury or illness.
The very first thing Lilly lists as being stolen are antibiotics. Those are going to be absolutely vital in a survival situation, and once they're gone, they're gone - the store shelves ain't getting restocked.
Even stuff like narcotics could be necessary depending on the situation; if someone's in enough pain, they can't function at all. Best case, that means an unproductive member of the group that's a drain on resources and morale while moaning and curled in the fetal position; worst case, that person's dead if they need to move in a hurry - there's a reason medics in the military still carry morphine and DARPA's working on a new auto-injector system for individual troops to self-administer the stuff themselves.
Even stuff like narcotics could be necessary depending on the situation; if someone's in enough pain, they can't function at all. Best case, that means an unproductive member of the group that's a drain on resources and morale while moaning and curled in the fetal position; worst case, that person's dead if they need to move in a hurry - there's a reason medics in the military still carry morphine and DARPA's working on a new auto-injector system for individual troops to self-administer the stuff themselves.
Touche.
anyone know why the bandits only wanted meds, and not food, btw?
and why they wouldn't want to take over a protected fortress instead of live in the woods, vulnerable? any theories?
Comments
I can agree with this, actually.
Cowardliness is a major character flaw in him. But pretty much everyone in the game has some major character flaw, whether it's hot-headness, inability to shoot, preoccupation with one or two members of the group at the behest of or threat to everyone else in the group, etc.
He does find stickers for Clem and probably plays with her, he does try to help (though he often fails to), and by Episode 5 he does let other people go before him to safety, so it kind of seems he somewhat starts to get over his cowardliness.
Yeah he was busy with Kenny and had stuff on his mind, but he at least could've made Clem stay somewhere around (inside) so he could at least watch her somehow, I get your point he was an emotional wreck at that time, but in a ZA you gotta get your shit together and grieve whenever you got the time. Now that you mentioned it he really thinks he did kill his family whether it really was his fault or not, but if he thinks it was his faul, why doesn't he at least try to do something right THIS time, i don't get it and his statement when you confront him "I'm really doing the best here i can" is just stupid, he sits on his ass and lets Kenny, who is one of the few group members, who can fight get drunk, he could've taken that bottle away from him, even if Kenny then maybe had punched him. Kenny's another thing, he did quite some mistakes too, but he also did SOME things right, Ben didn't, yeah he grabbed Lee's Glock when we were escaping, that really makes up for Crawford i guess. Still Kenny has his problems, and occasionally fucks up too, we actually could open a thread about him as well, but Ben... you pretty much said it: Clem can take care of herself better than Ben could, how comes that teenager can't get as much done as the 9-year old girl? She's got heavy shit on her mind too, I don't think she is stupid so she probably knows her parents might or might NOT be alright, and she IS scared of walkers, but unlike Ben she can focus for a little time and be useful once in a while. That might just be because she has somebody like Lee to encourage her, and to guide her, and Ben doesn't, i don't blame him completly for everything, but for some things. I mean the axe-door-handle thing, that was really, really, really (x10) ... stupid, it was the door, through which they came in. :eek:
Yeah i liked him as a person in the end too, but he is not realiable in a ZA, and definitly nobody you want to have around in such a scenario... :rolleyes:
Girls mature faster than boys! :P
I think Carley might have been able to put some seed in his manhood, but Lilly took care of that.
well I can think of a few benefits starting with the a halt to the depletion of ammunition, of medical supplies to treat wounded, the time and opportunity to make runs into town to resupply and not have the constant threat of attacks by the bandits on those making the runs, not having to fight a war on two fronts they already were at war with the walkers if your fighting bandits also it doubles the depletion rate of supplies and doubles the threat of attack. It also doesn't appear to me that the group was letting their guard down. There was a constant lookout, defenses were being repaired and strengthened, they were making runs into town to replenish supplies. I don't believe that the sudden and unexplained cease of hostilities would have caused the group to drop thier guard against the bandits much as it didn't against the walkers. The bandits were much more dangerous than the walkers, able to think, scheme, and coordinate, no I believe the sudden cessation of attacks by them would have heightened the suspicions and expectations of the group. Ben's choice of supplying the bandits with meds to halt thier attacks was a viable one, lets face it the bandits had the upper hand here and it was just a matter of time before they got what they wanted. His big mistake was not going to the group with the deal and letting all decide. Then the two best choices would been taking the deal or packing everything up and hauling ass before the bandits caught on.
We saw how well a attack on the motor inn worked. More than half of the bandits ended up dead or woundend and later dead. They acted more than stupid and should have acted in a other way, when they wanted to kill everybody there. Even if they wanted to threaten everyone to give them the medical supplies and food they have.
I actually find it odd they didn't try to take over the motel to have a protected shelter, let alone demand supplies.
That's cause Lee (and potentially Carley) had super-shooting skills.
Lol, and they would not have them when the Bandits attacked earlier?!?
The Bandits didn't attack before, they just harassed them (arrows in the wall). It also made a huge difference that it was Ben on watch who was expecting them and so didn't raise the alarm. Had it been Carley or Lilly they probably wouldn't have got close.
the bandits didn't get over the wall during the previous attacks, I would presume.
it's harder to shoot from a long distance when you don't have a sniper. and I'm quite sure they don't?
First lets look at episode 3.
Really? Why sneak needed supplies away from the people you care about and give them to bandits? Why not tell the group what is going on and make a decision on how to proceed as a group? Instead he steals from his friends and ultimately brings the bandits down on the group. Resulting in Duck getting bitten, Carley/Doug getting shot. Lilly getting thrown out/leaving the group. And katja killing herself.
None of this would have happened if Ben hadnt made secret deals with bandits.
Now, Lets look at Episode 4.
Ben and Clem are trapped by walkers. Lee Yells at Ben to save Clem. Ben looks at Clem then runs away, leaving Clem defenseless until a person with common sense saves her and ultimately gives up his life for her.
You have to ask the question, if it is going to be you or a 9 year old girl to get ripped apart by walkers, who would it be? Would you be a selfish prick who leaves a 9 year old to get eaten, or would you be a hero who sacrifices your life for a child. Bens actions are that of a coward and could have easily left Clementine dead. Not Acceptable.
Not to mention he got Vernans lady friend killed by removing the hatchet from the door keeping the walkers out. Also putting everyone in the group in danger.
How about we look at Episode 5 now.
He did grab Lees gun for him. Even though it was empty.
In the end, his death was sad and I did vouch for him, for Clems sake. But I didnt like it. He was still a moron who caused almost everything bad to happen.
He was scared of Lilly. That doesn't justify him not telling others, but I have an inkling he might have told Carley (if you saved her). She was also up high, watching, even without a gun, in the direction of the "X." And she defended him from Lilly's accusations.
Also, he wasn't a moron. He made up a communication system for the bandits that could have easily been deduced as the kids' scribbles.
He WAS cowardly in the face of imminent danger.
actually there was no way to assess the number of bandits that died during the attack since we don't know how many there were in the first place or witnessed the events once the group escaped. we do know what saved the group from total annihilation was a hasty retreat not a battle to the last man. in the end the bandits got the supplies and weapons they wanted that the group left behind, IF they survived the walkers that is. yes the bandits could not be called military geniuses if in any of their attacks they would have had gunmen climb the trees and fire down overtop of the barricade from cover the group could have suffered unrecoverable losses. or they could have waited them out and set siege to the motel, not letting them make runs for food and water, and saved the ammo, and not risked the danger of a gun battle. no they weren't smart, but they were smarter than walkers, and therefore a bigger threat.
I'm not saying it was solely Ben. Everyone in the group had a part in its failure. Larry being an asshole to anyone who wasn't named Lilly, Kenny and Lilly always fighting to be the leader, Carley/Doug, Lee, Mark, and Katjaa for not getting more involved and letting the two of them slug it out like they did. Kenny killing Larry (even though I sided with him and think it had to be done, this was still an important factor). Ben's majorly stupid handling of the bandit situation was the final straw that broke the group, but it could have been prevented, or at least lessened if he'd actually come forward earlier.
It's just a shame he dies no matter what. I actually started to warm up to the kid in Episode 5 (secondary save file. I dropped him in my main play). He actually stands up for himself, and doesn't feel obligated to always agree with Kenny because of Kat and Duck. He gains confidence and competence. When the walkers are breaking down the doors and storming the house, he isn't panicking. He's actively helping the group hold the line, and even manages to shoot two walkers in the stand at the attic ladder, which is quite impressive since we've never seen him fire a gun until that point. He has enough of what few wits he has about him, and saves Carley's Glock for Lee when he drops it. He even actually manages to be really quiet in the alley for someone who just got impaled through the chest by a metal spike after falling two stories. When the walkers are closing in, he doesn't say "Save me, please!", he just says "Don't let them get me!" He realized exactly how bad the situation was, and wanted them to just shoot him and run instead of dying trying to save him. Given enough time, he could have become an important and able member of the group. RIPieces Ben.
It seems that most of what Ben took for the bandits were hard drugs like Oxycontin for them to get high off of, not so much food or "necessary" medicine.
Having drugs to relieve pain would be nice, but not necessary to heal someone from bad injury or illness.
I agree 100% he should have confided in someone who wasn't Lilly, especially if Lee had been super-nice to him, but I have an inkling he might have in Carley just by the way she acted and where she was standing during the beginning of Episode 3.
I think he was numb/in shock at that point. He does say he thinks he hurt his leg; he probably can't even feel the spike in his chest
It would have made sense to tell Carley. She comes across as quite understanding and Lilly implies they spoke a lot, but i don't think he did.
She speaks to Lee in that very scene about how its better his secret is revealed by him rather than Lilly so if she knew she'd probably have said the same to Ben rather than ask Lee to investigate and potentially have him get found out.
Well, shock or not, he looks at the thing so he knows its in there. In his defense, I would have probably screamed "What the fuck?!" in his position. I mean, seriously. After seeing the spike through him, Ben finally knew what Lee and the player felt in Crawford when he showed them his borrowed hatchet.
Lee can talk with Ben 3 or 4 times and try to reassure him(he's panicking,what a surprise!) until Lee finally tells him to shut up and Ben answers back with "screw you man!" and then storms off
it made me laugh.
My impression was that the impact/pain/blood loss was making him delirious. He actually seemed quite happy at one point.
I agree with alot of what you say here bud, I believe most of the meds that the bandits wanted were opium based, at least I think I recall Lilly informing Lee that most of the missing meds were, and were obviously used by the group as painkillers, but probably by the bandits to get high. Good to ease the pain but no real medicinal value. There must have been some anti-biotics but it seems the bandits were looking more to party than for any healing properties.
I thought she said that the anti-biotics were going missing as well. Run out of those without knowing it, and someone is going to have a very bad day the next time they get sick.
Playing the game again, I notice Ben says "he" in reference to the friend the bandits supposedly kidnapped, which means they didn't keep a female companion of his as a sex slave. Which means:
1) yeah, that was pretty stupid of Ben
2) he really was lying to Lee about why he was helping about the bandits
good point. she can't know for sure if she says it's smart for Lee to follow up on stolen supplies.
I think Ben knew what that "borrowed" hatchet meant as soon as the zombies busted through the glass doors :P
Speculation of Carley knowing is grabbing at straws. No sense in hypotheticals either.
When the Bandits broke in, she obviously wasnt on the balcony as she was before, because she was held at gun point on the ground. If the bandits yelled for her to come down the others, like Lee and Lilly would have known something was up before they found out later.
He drew an X with pink chalk. He through a piece of equipment valued by the group (Flashlight) in the garbage for anyone to see. He left a Scuff of pink chalk leading out of the gate. Yes he was definitely not a moron.
People tell you who they really are when they are faced with a difficult situation. If Ben was a coward when it mattered most... I would not trust that prick with my child.
What does Lee trusting only Ben with Clem say about Lee, then?
Im confused about when you are talking
I also never noticed the smiley buttons lol
Lee yells at Ben about not watching Clem regardless of whether or not you entrust him with doing so, though, no?
Haha well its a given. Its everyones responsibility to keep Clem Safe. If Lee cant get to her in time, whoever is closest is responsible for her safety. I would be pissed if my little girl was trapped with someone and they just left her for dead. If im not around to protect my girl, i will trust that the member of my group will. And if they dont :mad: They better pray to whoever they believe in because I wouldnt have just yelled at Ben for leaving my girl out to die, I would have beat him to a pulp. :mad:
I meant when you actually yell at Ben for not watching her.
Granted, she "escaped" when he was helping Christa drag Omid up the stairs, so I think Lee should have been yelling at Kenny for getting drunk and not being the one to help drag his ass up.
As Lee said to Ben when he got back : "You had one job." And then he said he let her play outside. In the backyard. Alone and unsupervised. Surrounded by walkers. Being stalked by a mysterious entity likely hell-bent on killing us all, then kidnapping Clem. And this was after letting her get out and wander around a walker infested city all by herself. Then he tells me to lay off. I had it with him then.
Actually, there's bullet holes in the wall too; one doesn't waste ammunition they can't readily replace for weeks (timeframe given by Kenny) unless they're pants on head retarded or actually attacking.
The very first thing Lilly lists as being stolen are antibiotics. Those are going to be absolutely vital in a survival situation, and once they're gone, they're gone - the store shelves ain't getting restocked.
Even stuff like narcotics could be necessary depending on the situation; if someone's in enough pain, they can't function at all. Best case, that means an unproductive member of the group that's a drain on resources and morale while moaning and curled in the fetal position; worst case, that person's dead if they need to move in a hurry - there's a reason medics in the military still carry morphine and DARPA's working on a new auto-injector system for individual troops to self-administer the stuff themselves.
Touche.
anyone know why the bandits only wanted meds, and not food, btw?
and why they wouldn't want to take over a protected fortress instead of live in the woods, vulnerable? any theories?