A Clementine Death
Okay so this thread is either going to create discussion or make me a very hated member 
I brushed upon this in another thread where there were a couple of responses, however I wanted to look into it further.
Would anyone here have been interested to see at least an alternate choice-based ending where Clem dies? Either instead of Lee or along with Lee... that's not too important.
Purely for emotional reasons - I adore Clementine of course. But I've got to say I desperately wanted an ending where she had a full, story based death (as opposed to her 'game over' ones :L). I wanted to see what TellTale could do if they made the most saddening ending with a Clem death as possible.
If you're one of the people who say they would hate TellTale if they killed Clem and would refuse to play any more - is there any reason beyond just really liking Clem? It seems a very extreme response. Even more extreme than Cry's playthrough of the ending
Imagine Season 2 doesn't come into this at all, as it would naturally mess it up. I ask as if Season 1 was a stand alone project.
I'll also put this as a poll out of curiosity, for a canon Clem death, alternate one or as it is now
I brushed upon this in another thread where there were a couple of responses, however I wanted to look into it further.
Would anyone here have been interested to see at least an alternate choice-based ending where Clem dies? Either instead of Lee or along with Lee... that's not too important.
Purely for emotional reasons - I adore Clementine of course. But I've got to say I desperately wanted an ending where she had a full, story based death (as opposed to her 'game over' ones :L). I wanted to see what TellTale could do if they made the most saddening ending with a Clem death as possible.
If you're one of the people who say they would hate TellTale if they killed Clem and would refuse to play any more - is there any reason beyond just really liking Clem? It seems a very extreme response. Even more extreme than Cry's playthrough of the ending
Imagine Season 2 doesn't come into this at all, as it would naturally mess it up. I ask as if Season 1 was a stand alone project.
I'll also put this as a poll out of curiosity, for a canon Clem death, alternate one or as it is now
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I can see Clementine's death getting some heavy negative backlash from fans as well. Not only because she's so beloved, but it would also make all those choices with Clementine, to mold her if you will, pointless.
On a serious note, Clem dying would have just been awful, she's the only little bright thing left in the world by the games end. People are going to react pretty angrily to this i reckon.
Obviously i dont wan't clem to die, how could anyone, but that's not at all to say i think she should have some invincible armor in the future. Horrible things happening is what the series is all about. I cant really worry about Clem if i know for a fact they won't have the balls to kill her off. So she can only live so long and still have the same effect on me.
Killing off Clementine wouldn't be a financially sound decision for them to make.
They'd be a backlash for sure, and some people would be pissed and maybe even refuse to buy the next episode or series, but whether it would be the death of the series would probably depend on how good the other stories telltale have to tell are and if they can keep the majority emotional invested without her.
I certainly hope for good things for Clementine, but I like to stay realistic. I don't see a happy future for her at all. If the series continues to follow her, then I can say that the ultimate ending will involve her dying, whatever season that may be. Even worse, is what can happen to her in the meantime...
Let's say... a standard supply run goes horribly wrong. Clem gets bit on the leg. If she wants to live, someone has to hack it off right then and there. She may not die, but she is now irrevocably crippled. The audience is going to feel that one a lot more than Lee's death, I figure. So many players didn't care what misery they inflicted on Lee (starving, dismemberment, chaining to a radiator and left to die, etc.) so long as Clem was safe. All misfortune she suffered was in other people around her getting hurt and dying. If such things were to happen to her instead... I shudder to think of the reactions.
Be prepared, people. S*** was rough in season 1. S*** can only get rougher in season 2, or else the series will die. If season 2 is more upbeat than its predecessor, it won't have the same impact.
Lee's death was a good plot point not only because of the emotional significance it plays in the story, but because Lee made sure Clem had a fighting chance in this world even if he passes away. If Clem just dies, it really detracts from all the great moments from the first season such as teaching her how to shoot and advising her how to best stay safe going forward because it would seem pointless is she is going to get killed.
I understand that Walking Dead attempts to include kernels of realism with its notions of death, but it is still a game at the bottom of it all; a game needs to entertain and needs to have a good end goal accomplished. If the game just has an end goal that is undone later, it makes the whole journey seem like a waste from a gameplay perspective.
The next games won't precede further than the comic book canon as of now (only two-three years from the date of the outbreak), so I hope Clem keeps living throughout these games unless Telltale is somehow allowed to jump years and years into the future; then it wouldn't be as bad if an adult Clem dies for a good cause and protect someone innocent. As of now though, I think Clem should stay alive to ensure that Lee's efforts and ultimate sacrifice and, by extension, our own choices and efforts, truly paid off in the end.
Even you TGPGuy. Fear the $. Anyway
A) Sacrifice Clem to live
or
type choices, I wouldn't want it. I'd prefer it to be based on Lee's actions all the way through the season instead of a basic A or B dialogue choice.
In bold.
Hmm sounds interesting ,and it would be cool, but... still wouldn't want Clem to die, just as Lee is still alive, handcuffed to the radiator, swinging the keys with his one hand singing to "take us back". That's what I'll be forced to if she dies.
Ha ha same feeling dude
That would make sense, especially for the people who perhaps look at story more than character attachment, thanks
That is a beautiful sentiment, kind internet person
Oh yes, I had no doubt which option on the poll would go flying ahead but I couldn't leave it off
See now it may just be how my mind works, maybe I'm colder than most, but I literally can't get my head around why someone would refuse the next season because of it (apart from the previously mentioned 'storyline would be pointless' reason). I don't mean to insult anyone because I know that alternatively, they might not be able to get their head around me opting for a type of Clem death! I think that TT would've found a way to keep emotional investment without her somehow
That is a fair point!
Thanks, I thought this paragraph probably put it in the best perspective without going into Clem attachment
Aha, fair play! I guess I am a rare gamer who doesn't want a bright side. I want to play just one game, once, which is sad but doesn't let up at all. No happy or hopeful ending, no favourite characters pulling through... but there we go~
That's a really good idea in all fairness. Having it as an entire game mess up rather than A or B would make it a lot better and more fitting in a storyline sense.
-Teach Clem how to shoot and cut her hair to survive in this world-
.... Nope. *Walk away*
Right, here goes...
Yeah, the first bit I've agreed with.
Second bit - You cover what I mean about extreme reactions. I'm not saying this harshly I promise, just my view on it
Third bit - I know about the second season and save files, it's why I asked for it to be disregarded for this discussion. I know it would mean there would be no connection between the seasons then, which wouldn't be the best.
Pretty much my thoughts on it as well, plus the emotional side. Thanks
I can't say I wouldn'd be interested, but I would never let it happen. She was basically the central focus of the first season, preparing to become either a coldhearted, non-trusting badass, or be the innocent(in a sense), trusting, hopeful character, or even somewhere in-between.
And bro, that's harsh. I can't understand the point in having nothing but bad, nothing but sadness. If that was the case they'd all have committed suicide by now lol. I like how Telltale always keeps you on your toes and makes you think ahead, and how they make you like something just to rip it from your dead hands, but there has to be a limit; a line. You say that is only fairly dark, but it sounds colddddd mate lol. It would suck if everyone died, because there would be little point in playing. I don't mean a happy ending, but not an ending that everything goes wrong. It just wouldn't feel right for TWD to just keep handing out pink slips XP. I don't care if they keep slipping the rug from under my feet, but give them a fighting chance, let some people survive. Let there be hope. It's just my opinion.
It's not a game, but you should check out the film series "The Human Condition". Over nine hours of every depressing thing you'd ever find in a war movie topped off with an ending that would seem utterly nihilistic if not for the fact that realistically it probably happened to countless people during the second World War.
And as for the topic at end, I was actually worried Telltale would kill off Clementine at the end of the game. Ever since the nightmare on the RV I realized it was a possibility. And since a lot of the game seems to emulate the experience of being a parent, I thought they might make you experience a parent's greatest fear, losing their child.
I voted canon death because if they were to do that, it seems like the kind of thing important enough to commit to. An optional death would feel like an elaborate game over. If they had done something like that, I'd picture it something like Clementine getting bitten instead of Lee and you have to go through the whole Duck thing with her now. And afterwards maybe there's a moment where Lee is thinking about killing himself, and he hears someone's voice over Clem's radio. Something to give him hope. Sorta like that scene in the T.V. show, but even more desperate.
Really, it's that harsh is it? Well I can see how it could be seen that way, but it's not because I'd get a kick out of it or want her to die... it really is a hard thing to explain.
(Note for all: When I came up with this and posted it, it's worth mentioning that I didn't want everyone to die... It would've needed to be quite a different plot, but I wanted different people to survive. In particular Lee. I know Clem was basically his reason to go on, but it would have been so interesting to see a season 2 plot where he would need to move on, need to deal with it and how it would affect him without him committing suicide. That would have been sad in itself, and I know other titles have done things like that successfully.
Sorry if that was a bit confusing. Everyone dying would be a bit of a bad climax. And it's cool, I like opinions
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll certainly look into it
I think the game would of been more effective if Clementine was killed instead of Lee simply because that would have sucker punched us as no one would have expected it. When I played episode 1 I expected Clementine to be the last survivor because she was alone on the chapter select screen for "no time left". It would have shocked everyone if Clementine died and would of shown much more bravery from Telltale to have gone that route. Telltale were going for shock effect and they wanted to do what others fear doing, killing the protagonist.
Children die in the walking dead when they have the protection of adults how much more vulnerable should Clementine of been when she was separated from the group?
Throughout the 5 episodes Lee had fought and wrestled with zombies at close range and come away unscaved. I think it would have been far more realistic for Clementine to have come to harm and died when she ran off than for Lee to get bitten by a zombie behind a dumpster.
Telltale were going for realism, proving no one is safe in that world but they contradict themselves by keeping alive the most vulnerable character. A 9 year old girl travelling through a zombie filled city by herself. Clementine surviving gives the game a happy ending. The character we cared for the most survives so we are happy. If the walking dead game was a stand alone game that wasn't going to have a second season It would have had an ending that appeased the players at the expense of realism. Even the tv show had the balls to kill of a kid when they killed off Sophia. Sophia's death was realistic because she was on her own without the protection of the group.
Telltale were scared to even touch Clementine. Occaisionally her feelings got hurt but that was it after episode 1 when she hurt her finger. When you think about what the children go through in the walking dead comics. Ben, a 5 year mutilates his twin brother Billy with a bowen knife because he becomes mentally ill and thinks his brother will come back to life because he didn't harm his brain. A 9 year old Carl shoots the 5 year old Ben in his face because Carl see's him as a threat to the group and knows that none of the adults would be able to kill a child. Months before that, 8 year old Carl is shot in his shoulder blade and months after the Ben incident he is shot in his face, losing his eye. Oh and I forgot to add that months before that Carl was nearly gang raped by a group of bandits. This is the world of the walking dead, yet nothing happens to Clementine throughout the adventure, in a world of paedophiles , rapist and sociopaths. I'm not saying that I wanted anything to happen to her but if she is to run off and be separated from the group wouldn't it be realistic that she came to some harm?
I see it that way:
It should depend on how the player plays, if I take good care of her overall, not only depending on 1 decision, but depending on hours of decisions, she will live, and if I don't she dies, if I teach her to never loose hope, to stay focused, careful, and to be ready to pull the trigger if necessary, she'll obviously make it, if for example she runs off once again, and I don't tell her, that she should always have backup in dangerous situations, and should observe her surrounding before just entering, but simply tell her "great job" instead of "you did good, but be more careful next time" she won't learn, to be careful, which will get her killed in the ending.
I simply want a non-canon ending, I want my choices to matter, and I want her to live, but only if I take good care of her, and educate her well. So that the "survival training" we had with her would matter, and the last words from Lee etc.
/edit: If they can't make it depending on choices, I'd rather have a canon Clementine alive ending, than a Clementine dead ending. Seriously TellTale, please don't kill her. I said please....
I agree with this. My.. "Problem" with the game was that your freedom was kinda limited and your "choice did not matter".
Even though they might matter in Season 2. The problem with all this is that if i for some reason did not learn Clem how to shoot. In the scenarios that she DID shoot, what would happen otherwise?
I don't think it's possible to not teach her how to shoot, so that probably wouldn't be an issue.
It was just an example of what i mentioned earlier. The game is not as "free" as it first seems. You only have minor effect on the story, if someone dies, another lives. Game is quite simple.
Yup, that's what I mean, you have to teach her how to shoot, disregarding how you feel about it, Chuck talked some sense into you, he made you listen to reason, but you were not given the choice to accept or decline his advice. I thought yeah, she definitely should learn to shoot, but I can imagine some people still thought, that she is a little girl, and she shouldn't use guns, but they weren't free to just... not teach her, but if they made a decision where you could choose, whether or not to teach her how to shoot, and then depending on that choice, they could have made different endings or scenes here and there. For example: if you brought her to Crawford and taught her how to shoot, she saves Molly, if you brought her, but never taught her how to handle a gun, she can't pull the trigger. Little thing, but big meaning, as that means she wouldn't be able to kill the stranger either if Lee fails to defeat him, and perhaps she won't be able to survive on her own out there without Lee. I hope such things will be featured in S2, that it is up to us to really prepare her, and that we are given the freedom to do it our way, not a canon way, but unique ways.
Well choice in games needs to have some boarders. If for some reason the right way to go would be to teach her how to use gun and you dont, what would happen? People would die, she might die even lee in another way. Players would not like that their choice was "the wrong one".
Again it's an interactive tv-show. I dont wanna say your choices are "small" cause they really are not, a better word would be that there is not that much freedom in what you do.
I for one thinks it's mandatory that she learns how to use a gun, but then again it would be fun to have it so you can just ignore it, lee dies and then she is out in this world and does not know how to shoot, rofl.
ANYTHING that lets me feel like I made that happen I am good with.
Sorry I couldn't quote your whole post but thank you, it made a lot of sense. You (I'm not sure if someone before has said so as well) are definitely right with the sucker punching us with the unexpected. I've come to realise more and more that along with my desire to see such a sad ending, the desire for someone to push the boundary so much that a child (and Clementine at that) would die is another reason I want to see it. Children shouldn't be untouchable by an apocalypse and those who think they should clearly don't want the realism an apocalyptic game should have. I suppose two children did die in this game, but notice how they were both male, one was a walker anyway and the other was your typical annoying kid (well that's what I thought at least) that stuck more to the sidelines. Apparently all you have to be is a cute daughterly girl and you've survived an apocalypse.
We know it has been done and can be done well. If you've seen the Dead Island trailer and how it has been praised by most as one of the best game trailers ever made you can see that. Plus the girls in the TV series... and the one at the beginning of Dawn of the Dead. It just hasn't been done with a girl we've grown very attached to. Well, possibly with the exception of Sophia, depending how you see her.
I'm probably just echoing what you're saying now so I'll end there, but yeah your entire post words it nicely and I'm glad you've said it, thanks again!
That would be an awesome method yeah. I'm under no illusions that what I want to see is extremely unwanted and would cause outrage. But if you act like the worst guardian ever, you should be able to see the consequences of it, absolutely.
Plus I would want a non-canon ending to be made with the same genius and attention that that canon one had, rather than it being just a cheap 10 second 'game over - you did it wrong and Clementine is dead' kind of ending. One that would still cause the credits to roll and such.
I can see the problems with too many drastic plot changing choices from a development view. It reminds me of what I read about Mass Effect, where they've had to script thousands of different alternates because you have so much choice in the game. But yeah, one major decision point in the game that would effect just the ending would have been perfect like you say. Plus it would make a lot of sense, and make someone like me who wants a controversial unpopular ending happy. It usually sucks to be on the severely unpopular side of things eh :rolleyes: Although the poll coming close to 50/50 has given me a lot of faith in my view.
Personally I think it would be worth her dying just to see the reaction.
EDIT
In a sense I think she's restraining the story, maybe in a good way. What I'd love though is Season 2 starting, just settling back into the game and then BANG! She dies in the first 10 minutes. There couldn't be a better way for Telltale to pull the rug out from under the community.
Sooo... you're saying you want us to pull a "Newt"?