They both were definitely capable of shooting, and I don't think either one would have missed a target. But I've seen more by Carley, and I bet my ass she was on shooting ranges before the apocalypse - or a natural talent.
Of course, maybe she should have; Carley only grazed Andy... I don't think Lilly ever failed to kill something she was aiming at
Lilly shot Andy too and didn't kill him. Oh and Ben. She tried to kill him and killed someone else instead. Why do people think she's such a great shot again?
Lilly shot Andy too and didn't kill him. Oh and Ben. She tried to kill him and killed someone else instead. Why do people think she's such a great shot again?
I agree with Mornai's point that comparing a pistol versus a rifle user isn't exactly the same. So instead of comparing them simply on the basis of marksmanship, I'll try and evaluate them on the basis of their tactical shooting, situational awareness, grit, etc.
Carley has shown her capabilities with fire and movement. When she rescued Lee both inside and outside the pharmacy, she was able to move quickly to exactly where she needed to be to deliver firepower in a dynamic situation. She also repeated this when Mr. Parker turned. She was the one who saved the day again. At the farm, she also showed she could rely on stealth to get in position though she did missed the shot.
Probably one of the best examples of Carley being calm in a dangerous situation was when the bandits stormed the inn. She was able to react to a changing situation very smoothly by grabbing a pistol from a dead bandit and quickly killing two of them in rapid succession. This is the sign of a good gunfighter. Carley was right in the middle of a very dangerous and frightening situation, but she fought right back the moment the opportunity was available.
Carley's situational awareness is also high. She was the only person who noticed the St. John's outside the inn despite being at ground level and the group being distracted by a stupid argument. Lilly, who was on watch duty, failed to notice that people were right outside. The one time Carley's situational awareness failed her was when someone she trusted betrayed her (Lilly at the RV) because of an argument.
One of the biggest mistakes she made was not being near her source of ammo during the pharmacy defence. To her credit, she did make a tactical reload before the fighting start. It was possible she underestimated a melee based enemy, and didn't expect one to basically crawl up to her.
Lilly also demonstrated her ability to move where firepower was needed during the bandit attack. And somehow (and frankly, I couldn't even figure out how), she managed to sneak around and flank the bandits. She gets big credits for this.
At the farm, she missed the shot with a rifle against Danny. So in this case, I'd say Lilly and Carley are even, because despite the miss, Lilly and Carley were able to sneak up on an opponent again which at least demonstrates knowing when and where to be when shooting.
The biggest err on Lilly's part, IMO, is when she didn't shoot Mr. Parker when he turned on the pick-up truck. As soon as Lee fell off the truck, Lilly definitely had a clear shot on the walker, especially from an elevated position on top of the RV. Considering you could totally side with her in the game, I cannot accept that she purposely chose not to shoot at this point. Heck, even Larry comes to your rescue if he had the axe. I can only surmise that Lilly froze during a dynamic situation. Whereas the bandit attack on the inn occurred when Lilly was safely hidden away which gave her time to react, this walker attacked occurred right in front of her when she was the first line of defence. In fact, it was ultimately Carley who had to run all the way around the RV to come to the rescue.
Another point we should consider is mental stability. I will always trust someone who is mentally stable (Carley) with a gun over someone who isn't (Lilly). Even when Lilly was stable, she was still a very hot-headed person.
Given these comparisons, while I think both Carley and Lilly are both knowledgable in tactical shooting, Carley is the only who demonstrated consistently that she can keep fighting no matter what. Lilly didn't. If I have missed any possible examples, I'd love to hear them to keep comparing.
At the end of the day, it's important to remember that accurate shooting is important, but combat is dynamic, changing, and scary. Aim is affected by all of these.
^Lilly did not sneak up on Andy. Andy seemed to know she was aiming at him, and she still did not kill him with a straight shot. I think Andy wasn't expecting anyone to intervene in a solo fight(one-on-one). However, Lee shouting "Lilly, HELP!" kinda lost her cover.
Or blood-splattered. Carley wracks up a bigger on-screen body count in the first episode than a lot characters did all season.
At least two zombies outside the drug store, one inside the store, one at the motel, two more right after the window breaks, two more when she reloads her gun and that's not even counting the dozen or so off-screen when you're constantly hearing gunshots followed by splat sounds. All in the first episode, in a span of a few hours.
Compare that to Lilly possibly nicking Andy St. John, one bandit and one beloved member of the group, which in Doug's case she hit because she couldn't shoot straight.
If this is true Carley is the better marksmen. Pistols are less accurate than rifles.
While I agree that Carley is the better shooter, to be fair, I don't we've seen Lilly use a pistol except for the sucker punch at the RV, so it's hard to compare.
I'd have to say Carley. While Lilly DID have the training, her military career was spent sitting in a chair and dealing with people all day. Carley has been able to make, more or less, consistent headshots since the moment we met her. The only shot I've seen her miss is Andy, and she was still able to get him in the head (or ear, but close enough).
While I agree that Carley is the better shooter, to be fair, I don't we've seen Lilly use a pistol except for the sucker punch at the RV, so it's hard to compare.
There's also the fact that Carley's targets were a lot closer on average.
I'd have to say Carley. While Lilly DID have the training, her military career was spent sitting in a chair and dealing with people all day. Carley has been able to make, more or less, consistent headshots since the moment we met her. The only shot I've seen her miss is Andy, and she was still able to get him in the head (or ear, but close enough).
If Chair Force is anything like Army, it wouldn't really matter. She'd still need to go through a qualification course on a semi-regular basis.
At the risk of sounding apathetic, someone last-second jumping in front of your target doesn't say anything about your overall skill level.
That' not really how it happened though. It's not like Doug blocked the shot, he pulled Ben out of the way, but Lilly takes a second to follow them with the gun before taking the shot, but misses. Not a huge criticism, very difficult shot, but the point remains. Besides i would argue that although i get that it's about aim, when judging who's "better with a gun" showing restraint and awareness of friendly fire would be a part of that. Even if she had a very good reason to shoot Ben i couldn't see Carley attempting that with the risk of hitting Doug.
Lilly's aiming skills are more implied than demonstrated. We have her background and the knowledge that she runs the combat training, but in practice he haven't seen anything that impressive (two headshots on stationary targets who weren't expecting to be shot at, in Carley's case at point blank range, one non-lethal shot on Andy), compared to what we see Carley do (her worst shot, hitting Andy on the ear, is arguably equal to Lilly's best).
At the risk of sounding apathetic, someone last-second jumping in front of your target doesn't say anything about your overall skill level.
You said you don't recall Lilly ever totally missing a target. Pretty sure she missed Ben when she hit Doug instead. And like The Fallen said, it wasn't split second. Doug tries to drag Ben out of the way, Lilly follows them with her gun and shoots anyway. She tried to shoot Ben after she was aware of what Doug was doing and adjusted her aim. I'd say being dumb or crazy enough to take a shot like that does say something about someone's marksmanship.
But even then let's look at all her other great on-screen accomplishments in marksmanship. She may shoot Andy with a rifle, and fail to kill him. And she shoots one bandit in the head. That's fucking it. Clementine can match that by shooting the stranger and making a difficult shot to save Molly and the only loved one she may shoot is Lee when he's dying.
The only other time we see Lilly shoot a gun is during the bandit attack. There's a cutaway when she fires at something in the distance and we have no idea if she hits something or not while Lee is running back and forth blowing away bandit after bandit then a bunch of walkers to boot.
Half of Lilly's on screen kill count is either Carley or Doug and the other half is one bandit. We almost never see her use a gun and of the few times she does it's always when she has the element of surprise against stationary targets, and one of those is to kill someone in the group, which she may screw up because someone else saw it coming. This idea that Lilly is some sort of grizzled badass solider is just bullshit she and Larry sold to the group.
She worked a damn deskjob at an Airforce base and she never demonstrates anything to suggest she was any better a marksman than anyone else. Let along Carley, who's on-screen bodycount was second only to Lee himself despite the fact Carley appears in less than half the damn game.
Lilly is better with rifles, Carley is better with pistols. Overall though, I'd give it too Carley. Firing a pistol right on the mark consistently is a lot harder than with a rifle by a considerable amount, from my own experience at least. Furthermore Carley is known as the sharpshooter and the groups main lookout. Although Lilly works with the military, she apparently only did admin stuff, dealing with shit heads and bureaucrats all day.
Lilly's aiming skills are more implied than demonstrated. We have her background and the knowledge that she runs the combat training, but in practice he haven't seen anything that impressive (two headshots on stationary targets who weren't expecting to be shot at, in Carley's case at point blank range, one non-lethal shot on Andy), compared to what we see Carley do (her worst shot, hitting Andy on the ear, is arguably equal to Lilly's best).
It's debatable how how much clearer or obstructed Lilly's shot was during the St. John fight, but I wouldn't disregard her being quick at long range. Though like you said, in the end Carley was the more level-headed one, so she was a better person to be handling a gun in that respect. Shame it was a necessity for everyone to be holding one by that point.
You said you don't recall Lilly ever totally missing a target. Pretty sure she missed Ben when she hit Doug instead. And like The Fallen said, it wasn't split second. Doug tries to drag Ben out of the way, Lilly follows them with her gun and shoots anyway. She tried to shoot Ben after she was aware of what Doug was doing and adjusted her aim. I'd say being dumb or crazy enough to take a shot like that does say something about someone's marksmanship.
But even then let's look at all her other great on-screen accomplishments in marksmanship. She may shoot Andy with a rifle, and fail to kill him. And she shoots one bandit in the head. That's fucking it. Clementine can match that by shooting the stranger and making a difficult shot to save Molly and the only loved one she may shoot is Lee when he's dying.
She worked a damn deskjob at an Airforce base and she never demonstrates anything to suggest she was any better a marksman than anyone else. Let along Carley, who's on-screen bodycount was second only to Lee himself despite the fact Carley appears in less than half the damn game.
I thought that taking the shot at Ben said more about her deteriorating mental state than it did about her ability with a gun, but as you say, those two weren't really mutually exclusive in the end.
I guess that despite there only being a few shooting scenarios, I wouldn't write off her off as a desk jockey; the shots she did make didn't look like luck. Besides, no shame in being matched by Clementine. By the time episode 5 was done she had probably outperformed more than half of the people that Lee's met. lol
Well, Carley used a load of bullets, and not always in the best situation. I agree with Larry on this one, "... this bitch and her itchy trigger-finger." No offense Carley.
I guess that despite there only being a few shooting scenarios, I wouldn't write off her off as a desk jockey; the shots she did make didn't look like luck. Besides, no shame in being matched by Clementine. By the time episode 5 was done she had probably outperformed more than half of the people that Lee's met. lol
Fair enough about Clementine, she is use more useful than about half the adults you meet in the game, and a hell of a lot nicer too. But Lilly never raised above being marginally useful to me, and only when backed in a corner. And even then Carley always seemed to one up her.
And Lilly was a desk jockey, post-ZA as well. She stayed put in almost every situation and her duties seemed to be schedules, rationing, bossing people around and whining in general. Speaking of which, good call putting Ben on watch in episode three, even after Kenny points how stupid it is.
Where as with Carley it seemed like developers had to keep coming up with excuses to handicap her because almost anytime she has a fully loaded gun and a clear shot she's borderline unstoppable. She's missing in most of episode two and in three she doesn't have her gun for some unexplained reason and the one she picks up during the bandit fight either jams or only had two bullets in it. Had she been on watch none of those guys probably would have made it over the fence in the first place.
I really don't even see how it's a contest. For better shot or more useful, it's Carley by landslide. She consistently blows away everything she shoots at and the one time she doesn't is treated as one of Lilly's finer moments when she lands the same kind of non-fatal shot on Andy. Carley's worst is considered one of Lilly's better moment shooting wise, seems pretty cut and dry.
Well, Carley used a load of bullets, and not always in the best situation. I agree with Larry on this one, "... this bitch and her itchy trigger-finger." No offense Carley.
Yeah, because Lilly never used a gun in inappropriate situations.
The only way anyone is convincing me Lilly was a better shot than Carley is if they sold me on the idea that both Lilly and Carley were highlanders and by killing Carley, Lilly gained all her superior shooting skills.
Lilly mainly uses a rifle, which has a scope so its a low chance of missing. Carley uses a pistol which is a little less accurate and not meant for long range e.g Andy not getting a bullet to the forehead.
If we go on kill count alone then Carley would easily take the cake as being better. ONly pistol kill from Lilly I remember is Carley/Doug and Carley was just turning around at close range. Overall I would say Carley
Comments
lol :d
Carley for sure.
Of course, maybe she should have; Carley only grazed Andy... I don't think Lilly ever failed to kill something she was aiming at
Lilly shot Andy too and didn't kill him. Oh and Ben. She tried to kill him and killed someone else instead. Why do people think she's such a great shot again?
Rose colored glasses?
IE, if Lilly doesn't draw when everyone's back is turned.
Carley has shown her capabilities with fire and movement. When she rescued Lee both inside and outside the pharmacy, she was able to move quickly to exactly where she needed to be to deliver firepower in a dynamic situation. She also repeated this when Mr. Parker turned. She was the one who saved the day again. At the farm, she also showed she could rely on stealth to get in position though she did missed the shot.
Probably one of the best examples of Carley being calm in a dangerous situation was when the bandits stormed the inn. She was able to react to a changing situation very smoothly by grabbing a pistol from a dead bandit and quickly killing two of them in rapid succession. This is the sign of a good gunfighter. Carley was right in the middle of a very dangerous and frightening situation, but she fought right back the moment the opportunity was available.
Carley's situational awareness is also high. She was the only person who noticed the St. John's outside the inn despite being at ground level and the group being distracted by a stupid argument. Lilly, who was on watch duty, failed to notice that people were right outside. The one time Carley's situational awareness failed her was when someone she trusted betrayed her (Lilly at the RV) because of an argument.
One of the biggest mistakes she made was not being near her source of ammo during the pharmacy defence. To her credit, she did make a tactical reload before the fighting start. It was possible she underestimated a melee based enemy, and didn't expect one to basically crawl up to her.
Lilly also demonstrated her ability to move where firepower was needed during the bandit attack. And somehow (and frankly, I couldn't even figure out how), she managed to sneak around and flank the bandits. She gets big credits for this.
At the farm, she missed the shot with a rifle against Danny. So in this case, I'd say Lilly and Carley are even, because despite the miss, Lilly and Carley were able to sneak up on an opponent again which at least demonstrates knowing when and where to be when shooting.
The biggest err on Lilly's part, IMO, is when she didn't shoot Mr. Parker when he turned on the pick-up truck. As soon as Lee fell off the truck, Lilly definitely had a clear shot on the walker, especially from an elevated position on top of the RV. Considering you could totally side with her in the game, I cannot accept that she purposely chose not to shoot at this point. Heck, even Larry comes to your rescue if he had the axe. I can only surmise that Lilly froze during a dynamic situation. Whereas the bandit attack on the inn occurred when Lilly was safely hidden away which gave her time to react, this walker attacked occurred right in front of her when she was the first line of defence. In fact, it was ultimately Carley who had to run all the way around the RV to come to the rescue.
Another point we should consider is mental stability. I will always trust someone who is mentally stable (Carley) with a gun over someone who isn't (Lilly). Even when Lilly was stable, she was still a very hot-headed person.
Given these comparisons, while I think both Carley and Lilly are both knowledgable in tactical shooting, Carley is the only who demonstrated consistently that she can keep fighting no matter what. Lilly didn't. If I have missed any possible examples, I'd love to hear them to keep comparing.
At the end of the day, it's important to remember that accurate shooting is important, but combat is dynamic, changing, and scary. Aim is affected by all of these.
Or blood-splattered. Carley wracks up a bigger on-screen body count in the first episode than a lot characters did all season.
At least two zombies outside the drug store, one inside the store, one at the motel, two more right after the window breaks, two more when she reloads her gun and that's not even counting the dozen or so off-screen when you're constantly hearing gunshots followed by splat sounds. All in the first episode, in a span of a few hours.
Compare that to Lilly possibly nicking Andy St. John, one bandit and one beloved member of the group, which in Doug's case she hit because she couldn't shoot straight.
If this is true Carley is the better marksmen. Pistols are less accurate than rifles.
While I agree that Carley is the better shooter, to be fair, I don't we've seen Lilly use a pistol except for the sucker punch at the RV, so it's hard to compare.
There's also the fact that Carley's targets were a lot closer on average.
If Chair Force is anything like Army, it wouldn't really matter. She'd still need to go through a qualification course on a semi-regular basis.
And that represents one of only five times we ever see Lilly shoot a gun.
At the risk of sounding apathetic, someone last-second jumping in front of your target doesn't say anything about your overall skill level.
That' not really how it happened though. It's not like Doug blocked the shot, he pulled Ben out of the way, but Lilly takes a second to follow them with the gun before taking the shot, but misses. Not a huge criticism, very difficult shot, but the point remains. Besides i would argue that although i get that it's about aim, when judging who's "better with a gun" showing restraint and awareness of friendly fire would be a part of that. Even if she had a very good reason to shoot Ben i couldn't see Carley attempting that with the risk of hitting Doug.
Lilly's aiming skills are more implied than demonstrated. We have her background and the knowledge that she runs the combat training, but in practice he haven't seen anything that impressive (two headshots on stationary targets who weren't expecting to be shot at, in Carley's case at point blank range, one non-lethal shot on Andy), compared to what we see Carley do (her worst shot, hitting Andy on the ear, is arguably equal to Lilly's best).
You said you don't recall Lilly ever totally missing a target. Pretty sure she missed Ben when she hit Doug instead. And like The Fallen said, it wasn't split second. Doug tries to drag Ben out of the way, Lilly follows them with her gun and shoots anyway. She tried to shoot Ben after she was aware of what Doug was doing and adjusted her aim. I'd say being dumb or crazy enough to take a shot like that does say something about someone's marksmanship.
But even then let's look at all her other great on-screen accomplishments in marksmanship. She may shoot Andy with a rifle, and fail to kill him. And she shoots one bandit in the head. That's fucking it. Clementine can match that by shooting the stranger and making a difficult shot to save Molly and the only loved one she may shoot is Lee when he's dying.
The only other time we see Lilly shoot a gun is during the bandit attack. There's a cutaway when she fires at something in the distance and we have no idea if she hits something or not while Lee is running back and forth blowing away bandit after bandit then a bunch of walkers to boot.
Half of Lilly's on screen kill count is either Carley or Doug and the other half is one bandit. We almost never see her use a gun and of the few times she does it's always when she has the element of surprise against stationary targets, and one of those is to kill someone in the group, which she may screw up because someone else saw it coming. This idea that Lilly is some sort of grizzled badass solider is just bullshit she and Larry sold to the group.
She worked a damn deskjob at an Airforce base and she never demonstrates anything to suggest she was any better a marksman than anyone else. Let along Carley, who's on-screen bodycount was second only to Lee himself despite the fact Carley appears in less than half the damn game.
It's debatable how how much clearer or obstructed Lilly's shot was during the St. John fight, but I wouldn't disregard her being quick at long range. Though like you said, in the end Carley was the more level-headed one, so she was a better person to be handling a gun in that respect. Shame it was a necessity for everyone to be holding one by that point.
I thought that taking the shot at Ben said more about her deteriorating mental state than it did about her ability with a gun, but as you say, those two weren't really mutually exclusive in the end.
I guess that despite there only being a few shooting scenarios, I wouldn't write off her off as a desk jockey; the shots she did make didn't look like luck. Besides, no shame in being matched by Clementine. By the time episode 5 was done she had probably outperformed more than half of the people that Lee's met. lol
Fair enough about Clementine, she is use more useful than about half the adults you meet in the game, and a hell of a lot nicer too. But Lilly never raised above being marginally useful to me, and only when backed in a corner. And even then Carley always seemed to one up her.
And Lilly was a desk jockey, post-ZA as well. She stayed put in almost every situation and her duties seemed to be schedules, rationing, bossing people around and whining in general. Speaking of which, good call putting Ben on watch in episode three, even after Kenny points how stupid it is.
Where as with Carley it seemed like developers had to keep coming up with excuses to handicap her because almost anytime she has a fully loaded gun and a clear shot she's borderline unstoppable. She's missing in most of episode two and in three she doesn't have her gun for some unexplained reason and the one she picks up during the bandit fight either jams or only had two bullets in it. Had she been on watch none of those guys probably would have made it over the fence in the first place.
I really don't even see how it's a contest. For better shot or more useful, it's Carley by landslide. She consistently blows away everything she shoots at and the one time she doesn't is treated as one of Lilly's finer moments when she lands the same kind of non-fatal shot on Andy. Carley's worst is considered one of Lilly's better moment shooting wise, seems pretty cut and dry.
Yeah, because Lilly never used a gun in inappropriate situations.
The only way anyone is convincing me Lilly was a better shot than Carley is if they sold me on the idea that both Lilly and Carley were highlanders and by killing Carley, Lilly gained all her superior shooting skills.
If we go on kill count alone then Carley would easily take the cake as being better. ONly pistol kill from Lilly I remember is Carley/Doug and Carley was just turning around at close range. Overall I would say Carley