Who was the one that kept them at the motel? Lilly!
We could've avoided all that chaos we encountered at the motel if the bitch died at the St John farm.
Who was the one who lulled everyone into a false sense of security at the motel? Ben. He betrayed a group that took him in, protected him and kept him fed with their dwindling supplies, despite the fact that he was completely useless. And he repaid the group by fucking them over for an imaginary friend.
We could've avoided everything horrible thing that happened in the game past episode 2 if that bastard had died in the woods.
I am sorry, but nothing can save Lilly from me, I have hated her so much so that if I find her she will die, even if she saves Clementine brings Carley and Lee back to life, and ends the zombie Apocalypse, she will still die for what she did, you could say I am unreasonable, but I like to think of it as Justice never forgets, she is dead.
Who was the one who lulled everyone into a false sense of security at the motel? Ben. He betrayed a group that took him in, protected him and kept him fed with their dwindling supplies, despite the fact that he was completely useless. And he repaid the group by fucking them over for an imaginary friend.
We could've avoided everything horrible thing that happened in the game past episode 2 if that bastard had died in the woods.
Yeah, because killing a group member over anger is justified over delaying bandits which gave Kenny enough time to fix the RV. Otherwise, we'd be screwed. Just saying, bud. Lilly was paranoid, and by the time they got into the RV it didn't matter anymore if somebody stole the supplies. Sure, it implied they couldn't trust them, but then again they didn't have to shoot someone. They could have just left them on the road or something.
Still, Ben did screw up, I don't blame him for Katjaa and Duck's death, but I do blame him for Brie's (I didn't like Brie that much anyway, IMO she was b*****y) and also Chuck's, but then again if Ben wasn't there, Clem would have still found that walker crowd. All I could say is that he could've helped. BUT: If we killed Lilly, Carley could have not died, and shot that walker coming for Clem, meaning Chuck doesn't die. She also would come in handy in lots of other situations. (Also, you could say Ben killed Kenny, but that was Kenny's choice, not his. Also, Carley/Doug, but if we kill Lilly they don't die, and the bandit deal keeps going. We kill her when she is at the Motor Inn Pre-Raid and then Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the deal and we ride off in the sunset with the RV. ) So, Lilly dies it is.
Yeah, because killing a group member over anger is justified over delaying bandits which gave Kenny enough time to fix the RV. Otherwise, we'd be screwed. Just saying, bud. Lilly was paranoid, and by the time they got into the RV it didn't matter anymore if somebody stole the supplies. Sure, it implied they couldn't trust them, but then again they didn't have to shoot someone. They could have just left them on the road or something.
Still, Ben did screw up, I don't blame him for Katjaa and Duck's death, but I do blame him for Brie's (I didn't like Brie that much anyway, IMO she was b*****y) and also Chuck's, but then again if Ben wasn't there, Clem would have still found that walker crowd. All I could say is that he could've helped. BUT: If we killed Lilly, Carley could have not died, and shot that walker coming for Clem, meaning Chuck doesn't die. She also would come in handy in lots of other situations. (Also, you could say Ben killed Kenny, but that was Kenny's choice, not his. Also, Carley/Doug, but if we kill Lilly they don't die, and the bandit deal keeps going. We kill her when she is at the Motor Inn Pre-Raid and then Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the deal and we ride off in the sunset with the RV. ) So, Lilly dies it is.
Yeah, because killing a group member over anger is justified over delaying bandits which gave Kenny enough time to fix the RV. Otherwise, we'd be screwed. Just saying, bud. Lilly was paranoid, and by the time they got into the RV it didn't matter anymore if somebody stole the supplies. Sure, it implied they couldn't trust them, but then again they didn't have to shoot someone. They could have just left them on the road or something.
Still, Ben did screw up, I don't blame him for Katjaa and Duck's death, but I do blame him for Brie's (I didn't like Brie that much anyway, IMO she was b*****y) and also Chuck's, but then again if Ben wasn't there, Clem would have still found that walker crowd. All I could say is that he could've helped. BUT: If we killed Lilly, Carley could have not died, and shot that walker coming for Clem, meaning Chuck doesn't die. She also would come in handy in lots of other situations. (Also, you could say Ben killed Kenny, but that was Kenny's choice, not his. Also, Carley/Doug, but if we kill Lilly they don't die, and the bandit deal keeps going. We kill her when she is at the Motor Inn Pre-Raid and then Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the deal and we ride off in the sunset with the RV. ) So, Lilly dies it is.
The fact that Ben was going behind everyone's back to make the deal is the problem. Imagine if he let the group know about the deal. No reason for Lilly to go paranoid now. Not to mention, the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds after Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. If Ben had told the group that the chalk X was his way of telling the bandits to come, Lee wouldn't have taken the meds out of the grate and there wouldn't have been an attack. And I blame Ben for Doug's death. His treachery is what makes Lilly nuts, and he keeps denying that he was the traitor even when she tells him that they shouldn't "just kick him out. [They] should hear what everybody thinks" first. Even then, Ben refuses to admit the truth and let's Doug suffer for his betrayal. I can't blame him at all for Carly's death though.
We kill Ben before he makes the deal, someone else from the group like Kenny or Lilly will be forced to deal with the bandits, and they won't keep the deal secret. No one goes insanely paranoid, the bandits don't attack, Kenny can fix the RV and leave Macon while the bandits don't even notice , everyone is much happier. Ben dies.
Who was the one who lulled everyone into a false sense of security at the motel? Ben. He betrayed a group that took him in, protected him and kept him fed with their dwindling supplies, despite the fact that he was completely useless. And he repaid the group by fucking them over for an imaginary friend.
We could've avoided everything horrible thing that happened in the game past episode 2 if that bastard had died in the woods.
You're acting like the bandits would never have attacked if Ben died in Episode 2. Remember what Jolene said in the video recording, as long as the St John farm was running, the bandits would leave them alone but since the St Johns are dead, it was only a matter of time till they attacked, if anything, Ben's idiot plan delayed their attack.
Who's the genius that thought it was a good idea to put Ben on watch considering the person that put him on watch didn't trust him? Lilly. Ben would not have succeeded in stealing the supplies if she had guarded the supplies properly but if a shit for brains teenager can outsmart her by stealing supplies from her room, how useful is she really? Especially as a leader?
You can blame Ben for the shit that happened but you can't overlook the fact it was Lilly's terrible leadership was the real downfall of the group. It would've been a lot better if she had died at the motel attack, the group would've been better off and that their second strongest survivor would still be alive. Ben's an idiot, what's Lilly's excuse?
The fact that Ben was going behind everyone's back to make the deal is the problem. Imagine if he let the group know about the deal. No reason for Lilly to go paranoid now. Not to mention, the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds after Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. If Ben had told the group that the chalk X was his way of telling the bandits to come, Lee wouldn't have taken the meds out of the grate and there wouldn't have been an attack. And I blame Ben for Doug's death. His treachery is what makes Lilly nuts, and he keeps denying that he was the traitor even when she tells him that they shouldn't "just kick him out. [They] should hear what everybody thinks" first. Even then, Ben refuses to admit the truth and let's Doug suffer for his betrayal. I can't blame him at all for Carly's death though.
We kill Ben before he makes the deal, someone else from the group like Kenny or Lilly will be forced to deal with the bandits, and they won't keep the deal secret. No one goes insanely paranoid, the bandits don't attack, Kenny can fix the RV and leave Macon while the bandits don't even notice , everyone is much happier. Ben dies.
Yeah, because Lilly or Kenny is just going to give the bandits supplies.
...No they aren't. The reason the deal started is because of Ben's friend. It was basically a ransom. They also layed off because he gave them supplies.
Look, either way it solves the problem, but I'd rather kill Lilly than Ben.
You're acting like the bandits would never have attacked if Ben died in Episode 2. Remember what Jolene said in the video recording, as long as the St John farm was running, the bandits would leave them alone but since the St Johns are dead, it was only a matter of time till they attacked, if anything, Ben's idiot plan delayed their attack.
Who's the genius that thought it was a good idea to put Ben on watch considering the person that put him on watch didn't trust him? Lilly. Ben would not have succeeded in stealing the supplies if she had guarded the supplies properly but if a shit for brains teenager can outsmart her by stealing supplies from her room, how useful is she really? Especially as a leader?
You can blame Ben for the shit that happened but you can't overlook the fact it was Lilly's terrible leadership was the real downfall of the group. It would've been a lot better if she had died at the motel attack, the group would've been better off and that their second strongest survivor would still be alive.
Say what now? I said that the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds out of the grate when Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. Had Ben told everyone, they could've kept the deal going peacefully until the group could escape on the RV.
And at no point does Lilly tell Ben to be the lookout. Besides, do you really think that a woman who has been through a trauma just days before and not getting any sleep, according to Lee, would make the best lookout. Why the hell wasn't Doug are Carley being lookout?
You can't deny that if Ben had just told everyone about the deal the group could've escaped the motel without a massive fucking battle, Lilly wouldn't have gone paranoid, and Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck all would've been fine.
Say what now? I said that the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds out of the grate when Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. Had Ben told everyone, they could've kept the deal going peacefully until the group could escape on the RV.
You did say all the horrible things that happened past episode 2 would've been avoided if he died. And if he did tell the group, do you really think Lilly would be up for the idea of giving the bandits some of their supplies?
And at no point does Lilly tell Ben to be the lookout. Besides, do you really think that a woman who has been through a trauma just days before and not getting any sleep, according to Lee, would make the best lookout.
So Ben picks up the rifle and suddenly decides to be the lookout? Who's the leader of the group again?
Lilly had no problem taking out the bandit leader, she could've at least be on watch until Lee & Kenny come back instead of putting someone she can't trust on watch.
Why the hell wasn't Doug are Carley being lookout?
I don't know, another one of Lilly's shitty decision. Plus, she has it out for Carley for some unknown reason.
You can't deny that if Ben had just told everyone about the deal the group could've escaped the motel without a massive fucking battle, Lilly wouldn't have gone paranoid, and Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck all would've been fine.
I'll admit, he should've had the courage to tell the group but he admits to Lee he's scared of Lilly, there was a reason he admitted dealing with the bandits to Lee and not Lilly. Lilly has shown herself to be an unreasonable psycho that snaps at everyone and he was scared of what she'll do to him if he revealed what he has been doing.
Besides, what makes you think Lilly would've made the decision to leave even if Ben told them about the bandits? She would most likely stayed and fight after killing Ben because she's so against leaving the Motel. She ignores Kenny(And Lee's) advice on leaving, she knew the bandits were out in the woods and could attack at anytime but was willing to keep the group at the motel all winter. I only blame Ben for Duck's death, he played a part in Carley/Doug & Katjaa's death but at the end of the day, it was Lilly who took away Carley/Doug's lives and it was Katjaa who decided to kill herself and leave Kenny alone. Ben needs an ass kicking and that's it, Lilly deserves a death sentence.
You did say all the horrible things that happened past episode 2 would've been avoided if he died. And if he did tell the group, do you really think Lilly would be up for the idea of giving the bandits some of their supplies?
If it would keep the group safe until they had an opportunity to escape, of course she would have.
So Ben picks up the rifle and suddenly decides to be the lookout? Who's the leader of the group again?
Lilly had no problem taking out the bandit leader, she could've at least be on watch until Lee & Kenny come back instead of putting someone she can't trust on watch.
I don't know, another one of Lilly's shitty decision. Plus, she has it out for Carley for some unknown reason..
Like I said, a sleep-deprived, half-crazy person doesn't make a good lookout. And it's not as if anyone knew that Ben was untrustworthy when he was appointed lookout. If Lilly did give him job, she can't be blamed for not assuming that he had sold them out to the bandits.
I'll admit, he should've had the courage to tell the group but he admits to Lee he's scared of Lilly, there was a reason he admitted dealing with the bandits to Lee and not Lilly. Lilly has shown herself to be an unreasonable psycho that snaps at everyone and he was scared of what she'll do to him if he revealed what he has been doing.
Besides, what makes you think Lilly would've made the decision to leave even if Ben told them about the bandits? She would most likely stayed and fight after killing Ben because she's so against leaving the Motel. She ignores Kenny(And Lee's) advice on leaving, she knew the bandits were out in the woods and could attack at anytime but was willing to keep the group at the motel all winter. I only blame Ben for Duck's death, he played a part in Carley/Doug & Katjaa's death but at the end of the day, it was Lilly who took away Carley/Doug's lives and it was Katjaa who decided to kill herself and leave Kenny alone. Ben needs an ass kicking and that's it, Lilly deserves a death sentence.
"I know we have to go eventually"-Lilly
"I want to leave here when we have to, not because of some fantasy of somewhere better"-Lilly
And Ben had no reason to keep the deal a secret since he made it pre-crazy Lilly. She becomes an unreasonable psycho who snaps at everyone because of Ben.
Besides, this discussion isn't about who should get the most blame for what or who deserves death, it's about who we would kill for the greater good. If Ben had died early on, episode 3 would've had a much happier ending. Whether or not Lilly kills Carley/Doug, Ben was why the situation occurred at all.
If it would keep the group safe until they had an opportunity to escape, of course she would have.
Considering she had the heart to ditch the group and leave them vulnerable afterwards without a second thought, I doubt she had the groups best interest. The opportunity was always there, she didn't take it even with the bandit threat lurking in the woods.
Like I said, a sleep-deprived, half-crazy person doesn't make a good lookout. And it's not as if anyone knew that Ben was untrustworthy when he was appointed lookout. If Lilly did give him job, she can't be blamed for not assuming that he had sold them out to the bandits.
Why not Carley/Doug or Katjaa? Why give someone you knew for a week, someone you don't even trust the most important job that involves the groups safety?
She can be blamed considering that she admits that she never trusted Ben but yet entrusted him to be lookout. She didn't assume he sold them out to the bandits but she did figure out someone was stealing from them and she was quick to accuse him.
"I know we have to go eventually"-Lilly
"I want to leave here when we have to, not because of some fantasy of somewhere better"-Lilly
And Ben had no reason to keep the deal a secret since he made it pre-crazy Lilly. She becomes an unreasonable psycho who snaps at everyone because of Ben.
Besides, this discussion isn't about who should get the most blame for what or who deserves death, it's about who we would kill for the greater good. If Ben had died early on, episode 3 would've had a much happier ending. Whether or not Lilly kills Carley/Doug, Ben was why the situation occurred at all.
So a Bandit threat isn't a good reason to leave?
The fact that food has run out in Macon isn't a good reason to leave either?
If those situations doesn't make it a good reason to leave the motel for her then I doubt she was ever serious about leaving especially when she was considering staying at the motel for the winter.
Lilly was already an unreasonable bitch to begin with. I doubt Ben or his actions had anything to do with her attitude.
The real discussion for this debate is that you wanted to kill Ben because you thoroughly believe he caused the problems in Episode 3, I just pointed out it was actually Lilly's fault for the problems that occurred in Episode 3. If she had died in Episode 2, the whole group would be on the road, alive and with their supplies because she was the one that arrogantly kept them there at the motel where they were targets for the bandits to begin with.
Considering she had the heart to ditch the group and leave them vulnerable afterwards without a second thought, I doubt she had the groups best interest. The opportunity was always there, she didn't take it even with the bandit threat lurking in the woods.
Considering she does this after she goes nuts, I don't think her ditching the group is a good way to measure how much Lilly cared for the group. One of the reasons she panics about the stolen supplies is because she was concerned about Clem's health after all.
Why not Carley/Doug or Katjaa? Why give someone you knew for a week, someone you don't even trust the most important job that involves the groups safety?
She can be blamed considering that she admits that she never trusted Ben but yet entrusted him to be lookout. She didn't assume he sold them out to the bandits but she did figure out someone was stealing from them and she was quick to accuse him.
Actually, know that I think about it, making Ben lookout would've been a good way to make sure he wasn't off stealing or bandit-dealing...
But I agree someone else should have been lookout. Why the hell did no one else in the group have the initiative to be lookout?
So a Bandit threat isn't a good reason to leave?
The fact that food has run out in Macon isn't a good reason to leave either?
If those situations doesn't make it a good reason to leave the motel for her then I doubt she was ever serious about leaving especially when she was considering staying at the motel for the winter.
The real discussion for this debate is that you wanted to kill Ben because you thoroughly believe he caused the problems in Episode 3, I just pointed out it was actually Lilly's fault for the problems that occurred in Episode 3. If she had died in Episode 2, the whole group would be on the road, alive and with their supplies because she was the one that arrogantly kept them there at the motel where they were targets for the bandits to begin with.
The bandits weren't a threat to them at that point, albeit because Ben was keeping them placid.
She only suggests staying for the winter if you bring lots of supplies from the drugstore, suggesting that if they were really lacking food, that would be good enough reason for her to leave.
And from my POV it was Ben's fault everything went wrong. If he hadn't betrayed the group and kept the deal a secret, everyone would've known that the bandits were targeting them and would've been much better prepared to escape, not to mention Lily wouldn't have become so paranoid.
You know, everybody has their own problems. I know a lot of us lied about killing Dee, but you don't see us yelling at ourselves. That'd just look downright stupid. And it looks the same when you're taking it out on somebody else!
if larry had died of a heart attack at the pharmacy things probably would have gone better, lilly would obviously be grieving, but it wouldn't be grief and betrayal so she probably wouldn't have been so paranoid
you forget that killing Vernon means that omid will die, and killing Lilly will shorten the motel survival in two months.....so I'd pick Ben, with deep regrets, he is a good guy
erm....how did we get a Lilly argument again? ah well, I've seen more annoying arguments duplicating themselves in multiple threads....
for the protocol, count me as pro-Lilly
you forget that killing Vernon means that omid will die, and killing Lilly will shorten the motel survival in two months.....so I'd pick Ben, with deep regrets, he is a good guy
erm....how did we get a Lilly argument again? ah well, I've seen more annoying arguments duplicating themselves in multiple threads....
for the protocol, count me as pro-Lilly
Well, we can choose WHEN to kill them, and I'd kill Lilly pre- bandit raid, and like I said, Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the supplies and Kenny wants them to go out in the RV, so they go out in the RV.
Well, we can choose WHEN to kill them, and I'd kill Lilly pre- bandit raid, and like I said, Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the supplies and Kenny wants them to go out in the RV, so they go out in the RV.
Yes, Lilly could've caused trouble in the long-run if she stayed, but seeing as we know how much trouble Ben ends up causing I would still kill him before he made the deal.
The group would make the deal with the bandits and everyone would know they were in danger. They keep the deal going until they can escape on the RV, there's no massive battle, Lilly isn't paranoid enough to shoot Carly/Doug, Duck isn't bitten, Katjaa doesn't kill herself, Molly doesn't get separated from the group at Crawford, and Brie doesn't die. Happy end.:D
Yes, Lilly could've caused trouble in the long-run if she stayed, but seeing as we know how much trouble Ben ends up causing I would still kill him before he made the deal.
The group would make the deal with the bandits and everyone would know they were in danger. They keep the deal going until they can escape on the RV, there's no massive battle, Lilly isn't paranoid enough to shoot Carly/Doug, Duck isn't bitten, Katjaa doesn't kill herself, Molly doesn't get separated from the group at Crawford, and Brie doesn't die. Happy end.:D
Nah. Much rather kill that unstable and psycho b**** than killing a troubled teen that is just trying to help the group. Like I said, if LILLY dies, then Ben doesn't kill anyone except Brie, which many don't care about like myself.
y
erm....how did we get a Lilly argument again? ah well, I've seen more annoying arguments duplicating themselves in multiple threads....
Well if she gets that much hate, she must have done something to piss off that many people, don't you think? Like... maybe killing the characters that we liked. Me and the rest of the Lilly haters have turned the Lilly appreciation thread upside down and we shall not stop there!
Honestly though, yeah, seems like at least every second thread out there has a trace of Lilly hate in it.
Nah. Much rather kill that unstable and psycho b**** than killing a troubled teen that is just trying to help the group. Like I said, if LILLY dies, then Ben doesn't kill anyone except Brie, which many don't care about like myself.
That's kinda missing the point. Part of the reason Lilly goes nuts is because Ben kept stealing supplies which made her trust the group as a whole less and less. Everything you said could be avoided by killing Lilly could also be avoided by preventing Lilly's downward spiral into insanity...
Actually, why the hell are we even thinking about killing Lilly? It's obviously the St.Johns who should die. Travis and the teacher don't die, Ben never has to join the group, and Larry and Mark don't die, meaning Lilly never goes nuts and Katjaa doesn't get upset with Kenny. There's the real happy end.:D
The rule is that you can only kill one person. So you have to decide who is the most dangerous among the St. Johns. I went with Andy myself for reasons I previously stated.
The rule is that you can only kill one person. So you have to decide who is the most dangerous among the St. Johns. I went with Andy myself for reasons I previously stated.
I'm guessing from Brenda's "taught my boys not to waste" speech, she was the one who decided to start cannibalizing people. If that's the case I'd kill her before she told her sons to start eating people. Otherwise, yeah I'd kill Andy for the same reasons you said.
That's kinda missing the point. Part of the reason Lilly goes nuts is because Ben kept stealing supplies which made her trust the group as a whole less and less. Everything you said could be avoided by killing Lilly could also be avoided by preventing Lilly's downward spiral into insanity...
Actually, why the hell are we even thinking about killing Lilly? It's obviously the St.Johns who should die. Travis and the teacher don't die, Ben never has to join the group, and Larry and Mark don't die, meaning Lilly never goes nuts and Katjaa doesn't get upset with Kenny. There's the real happy end.:D
...And then the bandits raid us for supplies.
And we don't find the truck in the forest. Lilly went insane because of the meat locker, not because Ben stole the supplies. You can do either one, as previously mentioned, but IMO, killing Lilly over Ben is the better choice for me.
Case closed.
...And then the bandits raid us for supplies.
And we don't find the truck in the forest. Lilly went insane because of the meat locker, not because Ben stole the supplies. You can do either one, as previously mentioned, but IMO, killing Lilly over Ben is the better choice for me.
Case closed.
No, the bandits will make a deal for supplies, and since Ben isn't keeping it a secret, the group will know to keep the deal going until the RV is working and they can escape without a gunfight with tons of people dying as a result.
And a load of good that station wagon did. If the group didn't find it, the Stranger wouldn't have gone after Clem and the lack of food would have made the group leave Macon even sooner, which could've only been a good thing.
Considering she does this after she goes nuts, I don't think her ditching the group is a good way to measure how much Lilly cared for the group. One of the reasons she panics about the stolen supplies is because she was concerned about Clem's health after all.
She leaves the group to die because she cares? I think that's a good way to measure how she really felt about the group. She only brought up Clementine just to persuade Lee to investigate the missing supplies, I doubt she really cares about Clementine if she had the heart to abandon her along with the others she was supposed to protect as a leader. I don't think her going "nuts" loses her morality to know what's right and what's wrong, in the 3 Episodes she was in, she never showed any ounce of care towards others.
Actually, know that I think about it, making Ben lookout would've been a good way to make sure he wasn't off stealing or bandit-dealing...
But I agree someone else should have been lookout. Why the hell did no one else in the group have the initiative to be lookout?
So giving him an important job of lookout will prevent him from stealing? That makes no sense, plenty of other jobs for him to do instead of stupidly giving him one that involves the groups safety. And what you're saying is that it was the other group members responsibility to do a job that Lilly never instructed them to do? Even if they did question her, she wouldn't listen to them as she already shown that she listens to nobody's opinion.
The bandits weren't a threat to them at that point, albeit because Ben was keeping them placid.
She only suggests staying for the winter if you bring lots of supplies from the drugstore, suggesting that if they were really lacking food, that would be good enough reason for her to leave.
But she didn't know Ben was keeping them busy. At that point, she knew that they were out in the woods and most likely knew their location but still decided to stay, did the thought of bandits attacking at any moment that would force them to leave with or without their supplies occur to her at all?
And from my POV it was Ben's fault everything went wrong. If he hadn't betrayed the group and kept the deal a secret, everyone would've known that the bandits were targeting them and would've been much better prepared to escape, not to mention Lily wouldn't have become so paranoid.
Ben making the deal made the group oblivious to the bandit threat?
Let's play the what if game:
What if Ben had died in Episode 2
Lilly would've kept the group at the farm but without Ben keeping the bandits busy with the deal, they would attack at any moment, remember they targeted & manipulated Ben because they previously attacked his group and knew that he would believe them enough to strike a deal, with him dead, who else can the bandits go after? The only thing for them to do is attack and take what ever they have, remember, they're not going to take any hostages, they only did because they believed the deal was broken and they can't kill people unless it jeopardizes their deal. And it's not as if the bandits will give any warning before they attack, they'll take out whoever is on watch(most likely Carley/Doug) then go in for the rest, whether the group will see Carley/Doug getting killed, they're screwed with arrows flying at them in many directions afterwards, chances are, Kenny might get killed in the surprise attack as he sits on the couch which is near the fence in which he'll see Carley/Doug fallen body on top of the RV and he'll say "What the Fuck" right before getting arrowed in head meaning Lee will have to search his body for the RV keys if he doesn't take an arrow to the knee in the process all while Duck will run around like headless chicken, Katjaa would be busy crying for Kenny, Clementine will be hiding and Lilly the bitch attempts to kill bandits from the balcony and it's gonna be hard for her to kill moving targets considering she killed that one and only bandit because he was standing still and that was her only kill count, eventually, she'll make a run for it when they get close, leaving whoever is alive while Lee will shout "Lilly, Help!" and not looking back. And you'll know that'll be a sure blood fueled massacre.
What if Lilly had died in Episode 2
Kenny would've convinced Lee(if he disagreed) to leave the motel as he did convince him to investigate the St John barn. The two would've convinced the others to leave as well especially with the bandits knowing about them. It's unknown when the bandits approached Ben but if they did when the group haven't left yet and he proceeded with the deal, eventually he'd find out that they were full of it, seeing as how he was scared shitless of Lilly, chances are, he might confess but either way, it wont make a difference because the group would be preparing to leave. Once they leave the motel, they'll still have their supplies and the rest of the group would still be alive by the time they get to the train.
I know you love Lilly but you can't deny her bad leadership and rash decisions are the downfall of the group.
The Stranger, it would have prevented Lee's death, Kenny's (possible) death, and it would have prevented Vernon stealing the boat because Lee's group would beat the hell out of Vernon's group
Lilly. Without her, no one would've ever known about the bandit deal (unless there's a raid), the group probably would've left sooner (of course, this means that Omid and Christa don't join the group), and Clem probably wouldn't get kidnapped because Carley/Doug would be watching her and Lee probably wouldn't get bit. The group probably would've met Molly. Vernon would've tried to take the boat but would fail epicly and Lee and co. take off.
Chuck would probably still die and I'm sure Molly would leave which leaves Lee, Kenny, Katjaa & Duck (if the raid didn't happen), Clementine, Ben (determinant) and Carley/Doug. We would choose who goes on the boat but 1-2 people must stay behind.
Lee
Kenny
Katjaa
Duck
Clementine
Carley/Doug
Ben
Kenny would obviously get on the boat with his family so that leaves 2. Ben would probably find a way to capsize the boat so he's either staying at the mansion or I'm dropping him. Carley/Doug earned the boat ride. An emotional scene with Lee and Clem will play if you decide to stay or you let Clem stay with Ben or someone else.
Yeah Ben wouldn't get on a boat with my ass that's for damn sure, I would opt out of getting on the boat. it would be just Lee,Clem, Carly. I would encourage Doug to go with Kenny and his family, ducks an accident waiting to happen I don't trust him after Shawn. I would head north, zombies won't be in the mountains.
Lilly. Without her, no one would've ever known about the bandit deal (unless there's a raid), the group probably would've left sooner (of cour… morese, this means that Omid and Christa don't join the group), and Clem probably wouldn't get kidnapped because Carley/Doug would be watching her and Lee probably wouldn't get bit. The group probably would've met Molly. Vernon would've tried to take the boat but would fail epicly and Lee and co. take off.
Chuck would probably still die and I'm sure Molly would leave which leaves Lee, Kenny, Katjaa & Duck (if the raid didn't happen), Clementine, Ben (determinant) and Carley/Doug. We would choose who goes on the boat but 1-2 people must stay behind.
Lee
Kenny
Katjaa
Duck
Clementine
Carley/Doug
Ben
Kenny would obviously get on the boat with his family so that leaves 2. Ben would probably find a way to capsize the boat so he's either staying at the mansion or I'm dropping him. Carley/Doug earned… [view original content]
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Who was the one who lulled everyone into a false sense of security at the motel? Ben. He betrayed a group that took him in, protected him and kept him fed with their dwindling supplies, despite the fact that he was completely useless. And he repaid the group by fucking them over for an imaginary friend.
We could've avoided everything horrible thing that happened in the game past episode 2 if that bastard had died in the woods.
Yeah, because killing a group member over anger is justified over delaying bandits which gave Kenny enough time to fix the RV. Otherwise, we'd be screwed. Just saying, bud. Lilly was paranoid, and by the time they got into the RV it didn't matter anymore if somebody stole the supplies. Sure, it implied they couldn't trust them, but then again they didn't have to shoot someone. They could have just left them on the road or something.
Still, Ben did screw up, I don't blame him for Katjaa and Duck's death, but I do blame him for Brie's (I didn't like Brie that much anyway, IMO she was b*****y) and also Chuck's, but then again if Ben wasn't there, Clem would have still found that walker crowd. All I could say is that he could've helped. BUT: If we killed Lilly, Carley could have not died, and shot that walker coming for Clem, meaning Chuck doesn't die. She also would come in handy in lots of other situations. (Also, you could say Ben killed Kenny, but that was Kenny's choice, not his. Also, Carley/Doug, but if we kill Lilly they don't die, and the bandit deal keeps going. We kill her when she is at the Motor Inn Pre-Raid and then Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the deal and we ride off in the sunset with the RV.
Well, I can't argue with the bolded.
The fact that Ben was going behind everyone's back to make the deal is the problem. Imagine if he let the group know about the deal. No reason for Lilly to go paranoid now. Not to mention, the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds after Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. If Ben had told the group that the chalk X was his way of telling the bandits to come, Lee wouldn't have taken the meds out of the grate and there wouldn't have been an attack. And I blame Ben for Doug's death. His treachery is what makes Lilly nuts, and he keeps denying that he was the traitor even when she tells him that they shouldn't "just kick him out. [They] should hear what everybody thinks" first. Even then, Ben refuses to admit the truth and let's Doug suffer for his betrayal. I can't blame him at all for Carly's death though.
We kill Ben before he makes the deal, someone else from the group like Kenny or Lilly will be forced to deal with the bandits, and they won't keep the deal secret. No one goes insanely paranoid, the bandits don't attack, Kenny can fix the RV and leave Macon while the bandits don't even notice , everyone is much happier. Ben dies.
You're acting like the bandits would never have attacked if Ben died in Episode 2. Remember what Jolene said in the video recording, as long as the St John farm was running, the bandits would leave them alone but since the St Johns are dead, it was only a matter of time till they attacked, if anything, Ben's idiot plan delayed their attack.
Who's the genius that thought it was a good idea to put Ben on watch considering the person that put him on watch didn't trust him? Lilly. Ben would not have succeeded in stealing the supplies if she had guarded the supplies properly but if a shit for brains teenager can outsmart her by stealing supplies from her room, how useful is she really? Especially as a leader?
You can blame Ben for the shit that happened but you can't overlook the fact it was Lilly's terrible leadership was the real downfall of the group. It would've been a lot better if she had died at the motel attack, the group would've been better off and that their second strongest survivor would still be alive. Ben's an idiot, what's Lilly's excuse?
...No they aren't. The reason the deal started is because of Ben's friend. It was basically a ransom. They also layed off because he gave them supplies.
Look, either way it solves the problem, but I'd rather kill Lilly than Ben.
Say what now? I said that the bandits attacked because Lee took the meds out of the grate when Ben signalled for the bandits to come pick them up. Had Ben told everyone, they could've kept the deal going peacefully until the group could escape on the RV.
And at no point does Lilly tell Ben to be the lookout. Besides, do you really think that a woman who has been through a trauma just days before and not getting any sleep, according to Lee, would make the best lookout. Why the hell wasn't Doug are Carley being lookout?
You can't deny that if Ben had just told everyone about the deal the group could've escaped the motel without a massive fucking battle, Lilly wouldn't have gone paranoid, and Carley/Doug, Katjaa and Duck all would've been fine.
She goes insanely paranoid to the point of shooting the culprit only because Ben was going behind the group's back on his dealings.
You did say all the horrible things that happened past episode 2 would've been avoided if he died. And if he did tell the group, do you really think Lilly would be up for the idea of giving the bandits some of their supplies?
So Ben picks up the rifle and suddenly decides to be the lookout? Who's the leader of the group again?
Lilly had no problem taking out the bandit leader, she could've at least be on watch until Lee & Kenny come back instead of putting someone she can't trust on watch.
I don't know, another one of Lilly's shitty decision. Plus, she has it out for Carley for some unknown reason.
I'll admit, he should've had the courage to tell the group but he admits to Lee he's scared of Lilly, there was a reason he admitted dealing with the bandits to Lee and not Lilly. Lilly has shown herself to be an unreasonable psycho that snaps at everyone and he was scared of what she'll do to him if he revealed what he has been doing.
Besides, what makes you think Lilly would've made the decision to leave even if Ben told them about the bandits? She would most likely stayed and fight after killing Ben because she's so against leaving the Motel. She ignores Kenny(And Lee's) advice on leaving, she knew the bandits were out in the woods and could attack at anytime but was willing to keep the group at the motel all winter. I only blame Ben for Duck's death, he played a part in Carley/Doug & Katjaa's death but at the end of the day, it was Lilly who took away Carley/Doug's lives and it was Katjaa who decided to kill herself and leave Kenny alone. Ben needs an ass kicking and that's it, Lilly deserves a death sentence.
If it would keep the group safe until they had an opportunity to escape, of course she would have.
Like I said, a sleep-deprived, half-crazy person doesn't make a good lookout. And it's not as if anyone knew that Ben was untrustworthy when he was appointed lookout. If Lilly did give him job, she can't be blamed for not assuming that he had sold them out to the bandits.
"I know we have to go eventually"-Lilly
"I want to leave here when we have to, not because of some fantasy of somewhere better"-Lilly
And Ben had no reason to keep the deal a secret since he made it pre-crazy Lilly. She becomes an unreasonable psycho who snaps at everyone because of Ben.
Besides, this discussion isn't about who should get the most blame for what or who deserves death, it's about who we would kill for the greater good. If Ben had died early on, episode 3 would've had a much happier ending. Whether or not Lilly kills Carley/Doug, Ben was why the situation occurred at all.
Considering she had the heart to ditch the group and leave them vulnerable afterwards without a second thought, I doubt she had the groups best interest. The opportunity was always there, she didn't take it even with the bandit threat lurking in the woods.
Why not Carley/Doug or Katjaa? Why give someone you knew for a week, someone you don't even trust the most important job that involves the groups safety?
She can be blamed considering that she admits that she never trusted Ben but yet entrusted him to be lookout. She didn't assume he sold them out to the bandits but she did figure out someone was stealing from them and she was quick to accuse him.
So a Bandit threat isn't a good reason to leave?
The fact that food has run out in Macon isn't a good reason to leave either?
If those situations doesn't make it a good reason to leave the motel for her then I doubt she was ever serious about leaving especially when she was considering staying at the motel for the winter.
Lilly was already an unreasonable bitch to begin with. I doubt Ben or his actions had anything to do with her attitude.
The real discussion for this debate is that you wanted to kill Ben because you thoroughly believe he caused the problems in Episode 3, I just pointed out it was actually Lilly's fault for the problems that occurred in Episode 3. If she had died in Episode 2, the whole group would be on the road, alive and with their supplies because she was the one that arrogantly kept them there at the motel where they were targets for the bandits to begin with.
Actually, know that I think about it, making Ben lookout would've been a good way to make sure he wasn't off stealing or bandit-dealing...
But I agree someone else should have been lookout. Why the hell did no one else in the group have the initiative to be lookout?
The bandits weren't a threat to them at that point, albeit because Ben was keeping them placid.
She only suggests staying for the winter if you bring lots of supplies from the drugstore, suggesting that if they were really lacking food, that would be good enough reason for her to leave.
And from my POV it was Ben's fault everything went wrong. If he hadn't betrayed the group and kept the deal a secret, everyone would've known that the bandits were targeting them and would've been much better prepared to escape, not to mention Lily wouldn't have become so paranoid.
erm....how did we get a Lilly argument again? ah well, I've seen more annoying arguments duplicating themselves in multiple threads....
for the protocol, count me as pro-Lilly
Well, we can choose WHEN to kill them, and I'd kill Lilly pre- bandit raid, and like I said, Kenny is now in charge, nobody finds the supplies and Kenny wants them to go out in the RV, so they go out in the RV.
Yes, Lilly could've caused trouble in the long-run if she stayed, but seeing as we know how much trouble Ben ends up causing I would still kill him before he made the deal.
The group would make the deal with the bandits and everyone would know they were in danger. They keep the deal going until they can escape on the RV, there's no massive battle, Lilly isn't paranoid enough to shoot Carly/Doug, Duck isn't bitten, Katjaa doesn't kill herself, Molly doesn't get separated from the group at Crawford, and Brie doesn't die. Happy end.:D
Nah. Much rather kill that unstable and psycho b**** than killing a troubled teen that is just trying to help the group. Like I said, if LILLY dies, then Ben doesn't kill anyone except Brie, which many don't care about like myself.
Well if she gets that much hate, she must have done something to piss off that many people, don't you think? Like... maybe killing the characters that we liked. Me and the rest of the Lilly haters have turned the Lilly appreciation thread upside down and we shall not stop there!
Honestly though, yeah, seems like at least every second thread out there has a trace of Lilly hate in it.
That's kinda missing the point. Part of the reason Lilly goes nuts is because Ben kept stealing supplies which made her trust the group as a whole less and less. Everything you said could be avoided by killing Lilly could also be avoided by preventing Lilly's downward spiral into insanity...
Actually, why the hell are we even thinking about killing Lilly?
I'm guessing from Brenda's "taught my boys not to waste" speech, she was the one who decided to start cannibalizing people. If that's the case I'd kill her before she told her sons to start eating people. Otherwise, yeah I'd kill Andy for the same reasons you said.
...And then the bandits raid us for supplies.
And we don't find the truck in the forest. Lilly went insane because of the meat locker, not because Ben stole the supplies. You can do either one, as previously mentioned, but IMO, killing Lilly over Ben is the better choice for me.
Case closed.
No, the bandits will make a deal for supplies, and since Ben isn't keeping it a secret, the group will know to keep the deal going until the RV is working and they can escape without a gunfight with tons of people dying as a result.
And a load of good that station wagon did. If the group didn't find it, the Stranger wouldn't have gone after Clem and the lack of food would have made the group leave Macon even sooner, which could've only been a good thing.
She leaves the group to die because she cares? I think that's a good way to measure how she really felt about the group. She only brought up Clementine just to persuade Lee to investigate the missing supplies, I doubt she really cares about Clementine if she had the heart to abandon her along with the others she was supposed to protect as a leader. I don't think her going "nuts" loses her morality to know what's right and what's wrong, in the 3 Episodes she was in, she never showed any ounce of care towards others.
So giving him an important job of lookout will prevent him from stealing? That makes no sense, plenty of other jobs for him to do instead of stupidly giving him one that involves the groups safety. And what you're saying is that it was the other group members responsibility to do a job that Lilly never instructed them to do? Even if they did question her, she wouldn't listen to them as she already shown that she listens to nobody's opinion.
But she didn't know Ben was keeping them busy. At that point, she knew that they were out in the woods and most likely knew their location but still decided to stay, did the thought of bandits attacking at any moment that would force them to leave with or without their supplies occur to her at all?
Ben making the deal made the group oblivious to the bandit threat?
Let's play the what if game:
What if Ben had died in Episode 2
Lilly would've kept the group at the farm but without Ben keeping the bandits busy with the deal, they would attack at any moment, remember they targeted & manipulated Ben because they previously attacked his group and knew that he would believe them enough to strike a deal, with him dead, who else can the bandits go after? The only thing for them to do is attack and take what ever they have, remember, they're not going to take any hostages, they only did because they believed the deal was broken and they can't kill people unless it jeopardizes their deal. And it's not as if the bandits will give any warning before they attack, they'll take out whoever is on watch(most likely Carley/Doug) then go in for the rest, whether the group will see Carley/Doug getting killed, they're screwed with arrows flying at them in many directions afterwards, chances are, Kenny might get killed in the surprise attack as he sits on the couch which is near the fence in which he'll see Carley/Doug fallen body on top of the RV and he'll say "What the Fuck" right before getting arrowed in head meaning Lee will have to search his body for the RV keys if he doesn't take an arrow to the knee in the process all while Duck will run around like headless chicken, Katjaa would be busy crying for Kenny, Clementine will be hiding and Lilly the bitch attempts to kill bandits from the balcony and it's gonna be hard for her to kill moving targets considering she killed that one and only bandit because he was standing still and that was her only kill count, eventually, she'll make a run for it when they get close, leaving whoever is alive while Lee will shout "Lilly, Help!" and not looking back. And you'll know that'll be a sure blood fueled massacre.
What if Lilly had died in Episode 2
Kenny would've convinced Lee(if he disagreed) to leave the motel as he did convince him to investigate the St John barn. The two would've convinced the others to leave as well especially with the bandits knowing about them. It's unknown when the bandits approached Ben but if they did when the group haven't left yet and he proceeded with the deal, eventually he'd find out that they were full of it, seeing as how he was scared shitless of Lilly, chances are, he might confess but either way, it wont make a difference because the group would be preparing to leave. Once they leave the motel, they'll still have their supplies and the rest of the group would still be alive by the time they get to the train.
I know you love Lilly but you can't deny her bad leadership and rash decisions are the downfall of the group.
Chuck would probably still die and I'm sure Molly would leave which leaves Lee, Kenny, Katjaa & Duck (if the raid didn't happen), Clementine, Ben (determinant) and Carley/Doug. We would choose who goes on the boat but 1-2 people must stay behind.
Lee
Kenny
Katjaa
Duck
Clementine
Carley/Doug
Ben
Kenny would obviously get on the boat with his family so that leaves 2. Ben would probably find a way to capsize the boat so he's either staying at the mansion or I'm dropping him. Carley/Doug earned the boat ride. An emotional scene with Lee and Clem will play if you decide to stay or you let Clem stay with Ben or someone else.
lily..I would tie her up on a tree by her arms so zombies could eat her legs. definitely would have killed her father early. Maybe Roman.
Yeah Ben wouldn't get on a boat with my ass that's for damn sure, I would opt out of getting on the boat. it would be just Lee,Clem, Carly. I would encourage Doug to go with Kenny and his family, ducks an accident waiting to happen I don't trust him after Shawn. I would head north, zombies won't be in the mountains.