Clementine getting in the way

edited August 2013 in The Walking Dead
This thread may be polarising and/or controversial in some way.
Not my intention.

Do you think Clementine got in the way of what was logical / practical?

For example:
- The St. Johns are trying to kill off Lee's group.
- Player has Lee kill Danny St. John.
- Finds out Clementine was watching.
- Player doesn't kill Andy St. John because of Clementine.

I personally killed Andy St. John, primarily because of the possibility of him hunting down Lee's group for revenge. I also did it because he had a death wish and I had been waiting since the drugstore for an opportunity to show the group who's boss (I know that last part sounds creepy).

I'm not trying to slag-off or have a dig at those who spared Andy St. John because of Clementine or for other reasons.
Its just the way I saw it - killing the St. Johns was the logical thing to do...

Another example would be the Station Wagon situation, but this thread isn't about my opinion - It's about yours...

So, do YOU think Clementine got in the way of what was logical / practical?
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Comments

  • edited August 2013
    frankly, i made andy live so the walkers would get him.

    yeah. Clem did occasionally get in the way. not much though, not as much as GODDAMNIT BEN. although that's a different reason and type of getting in the way entirely.
  • edited August 2013
    I don't think so. If Clementine was getting in the way she'll say "nooo!" if you need to choose if to kill them or not.
  • edited August 2013
    The thing is ... By killing Danny and Andy , you will prove that you're not better than them . By killing The St johns brothers , you will lose your humanity and become exactly like them or like the bandits .
    What's the point of survival if you become a monster like them ?
  • edited August 2013
    I spared Andy, because he was gonna get eaten by walkers anyway. I didn't want to solidify my image as a murderer in the eyes of Clementine after she saw me kill Danny and Carley after she asked me to stop feeding Andy his teeth. So I left him. Killing him would have been actually an act of mercy, but I doubt people would see it that way.

    As for Clementine getting in the way- well she doesn't exactly STOP you from doing something, she just voices her childish opinion. That's what children do, they see the world as good and evil and are not yet prepared to understand and accept that there are morally grey decisions. I all cases I was quick to shut her down and do the logical thing, which is killing Larry and stealing from the car. I'm not about to let the moral feelings of a child get in the way of the safety of the group. And the said child herself.

    The only time Clementine managed to change my mind was at Crawford. I was ready to leave Ben behind, especially after he took the hatchet out of the door. That was stupid EVEN for Ben, and it was the last drop of my patience. But when Clementine said that "we don't leave friends behind" line, I'll admit, it swayed me. That's the ONLY reason Ben did not fall from that belltower in my playthrough.
  • edited August 2013
    I spared them, but I think it was the wrong choice (I regretted it ever since). Yes you are losing part of yourself by killing them but I'd would kill someone who would threaten to hurt us again. I wouldn't lose my humanity if I knew killing them was bad but had to be done.. in my opinion anyway.

    Killing is bad but with the right reasons in place my conscience can stay clear and even if you are broken as chuck says "your alive" plus they killed people and ate them so even if you kill them your not as bad as them.
  • edited August 2013
    First of All I think letting Andy ST John live because Clem will see is the wrong decision,Clem is too young to understand that evil men must die and people forget that Clem is a little girl she doesn't know whats best for her.While she did endanger the group due to the stranger overall I think she has saved us more times then she has endangered us,i mean we would have died straight away in episode 1 if not for her and the whole group would have died at the dairy where it not for her.
  • edited August 2013
    As for the people who said they left him for the walkers that's not a real choice because your making the decision when you know whats going to happen,if it was your first time playing it you'd have no idea walkers where about to spill in,they only come after you make your choice so for all you knew you were about to leave him as he was,beaten up but very much alive and within a few hours walk of the motor inn where he can mount up and take his revenge!?
  • edited August 2013
    The thing is ... By killing Danny and Andy , you will prove that you're not better than them . By killing The St johns brothers , you will lose your humanity and become exactly like them or like the bandits .
    What's the point of survival if you become a monster like them ?

    My Lee killed them and he didn't become a monster,killing is recommended if the people are evil,I mean in episode 3 we killed like 5 bandits,that didn't make us evil either
  • edited August 2013
    Imean. I Left him with everything gone. Walkers were going to get himeventually, 1 month, 2 days, I prolonged his suffering.
  • edited August 2013
    Imean. I Left him with everything gone. Walkers were going to get himeventually, 1 month, 2 days, I prolonged his suffering.

    But he could easily get his weapons and possibly save danny if you only left him trapped them come and attack the group,you wouldn't want one of your groups blood on your hands thats why I made sure kill him plus he didn't deserve to live anyways.
  • edited August 2013
    Yeah, I was too busy thinking about how He deserved worse than a bullet to teh head and/or electrocution.
  • edited August 2013
    Clementine is supposed to act as a moral compass in this game. It's how she was designed. I guess she does get in the way in terms of descion making.
  • edited August 2013
    i never let the presence of clementine affect the choices i made, except for the fact that Lee was responsible for protecting and caring for Clementine, i didn't kill either of the St. johns because i wanted to capture them and their farm and get answers, so clementine had nothing to do with that choice, and i took the food ignoring what a child has to say about survival, it is clementine who should emulate and get moral guidance from Lee not the other way round
  • edited August 2013
    i never let the presence of clementine affect the choices i made, except for the fact that Lee was responsible for protecting and caring for Clementine, i didn't kill either of the St. johns because i wanted to capture them and their farm and get answers, so clementine had nothing to do with that choice, and i took the food ignoring what a child has to say about survival, it is clementine who should emulate and get moral guidance from Lee not the other way round

    Yes I completely agree. I like clem but I'm not one of these people who lets her decide everything for me. Sometimes Clem is wrong just like everyone else...
  • edited August 2013
    Yes I completely agree. I like clem but I'm not one of these people who lets her decide everything for me. Sometimes Clem is wrong just like everyone else...

    My point exactly, Clem is a compass, a compass guides you but it doesn't control you. Not taking the food is the wrong choice, People forget she is still a child she doesn't understand how everything works,a good parent doesn't always let their child get their own way.
  • edited August 2013
    Crixus wrote: »
    My point exactly, Clem is a compass, a compass guides you but it doesn't control you. Not taking the food is the wrong choice, People forget she is still a child she doesn't understand how everything works,a good parent doesn't always let their child get their own way.

    Yeah but in the end , the owner came back and he bit us in the ass ... literally .
  • edited August 2013
    Yeah but in the end , the owner came back and he bit us in the ass ... literally .

    Yeah but no one could ever predict that plus if we didn't take it I think some of the group would have straved to death within the week between episode 2 and 3.I mean Kenny said he was nearly fainting because he was so hungry,don't think he or the kids would survive another week
  • edited August 2013
    Crixus wrote: »
    Yeah but no one could ever predict that plus if we didn't take it I think some of the group would have straved to death within the week between episode 2 and 3.I mean Kenny said he was nearly fainting because he was so hungry,don't think he or the kids would survive another week

    Yeah . Now that I am thinking about it , if Campman din't choose to leave the car in the woods but instead choose to guard it and than later we meet him and ask him if he can share some of his food with us , do you think he would of given us some of his food or he would of just said " Fuck off " and tell us to find our own food ?
  • edited August 2013
    Clem got her cool hoodie out of that car... some people say they hate the hoodie but I think Clem looks really cool, in it :p

    But really taking the food was the right choice, there was a 90% chance the owners were dead and 10% they were really dumb and left there car unlocked with no sign/guards or whatever. Plus they must have scavenged food over the last three months, why was this car any different?

    Honestly the stranger had lost his kid anyway so I presume the wife would have left him because of that not the food...
    I still think I made the right chocie there and at least my Clem ended up alone with no one but has a Hoodie :D
  • edited August 2013
    Crixus wrote: »
    My point exactly, Clem is a compass, a compass guides you but it doesn't control you. Not taking the food is the wrong choice, People forget she is still a child she doesn't understand how everything works,a good parent doesn't always let their child get their own way.

    But, then you get the Brooklyn sweater of SHAME.
  • edited August 2013
    Yeah . Now that I am thinking about it , if Campman din't choose to leave the car in the woods but instead choose to guard it and than later we meet him and ask him if he can share some of his food with us , do you think he would of given us some of his food or he would of just said " Fuck off " and tell us to find our own food ?

    I don't know,maybe he and his wife and child would join us at the motor inn?
  • edited August 2013
    Clementine gets in the way of logic and practicality the same way that Lee's (and the player's) own sense of humanity gets in the way of logic and practicality. You can ignore either if you so choose (and many do), but they will always be there to remind you about the morality of the situation. That's basically the entire point of her relationship with Lee. In fact, I remember the writers saying in an interview that were struggling with "Well why wouldn't the main character just leave this shitty group of people he's with and set out on his own?" and Clementine was the answer they came up with. So in a way, Clementine's entire conception was as a way to get players to look past logic and practicality.
  • edited August 2013
    But, then you get the Brooklyn sweater of SHAME.

    Shame or not its warm and thats what counts! :D
  • edited August 2013
    The thing is ... By killing Danny and Andy , you will prove that you're not better than them . By killing The St johns brothers , you will lose your humanity and become exactly like them or like the bandits .
    What's the point of survival if you become a monster like them ?

    Seriously? You have Hitler right in front of you and the only way to stop him is to put a bullet between his eyes, so you do it. Does that mean you're as bad as him?

    I killed the brothers for everything they did. It doesn't take away my humanity, or mean I'm as bad as them. It just means I ended a threat.
  • edited August 2013
    Seriously? You have Hitler right in front of you and the only way to stop him is to put a bullet between his eyes, so you do it. Does that mean you're as bad as him?

    I killed the brothers for everything they did. It doesn't take away my humanity, or mean I'm as bad as them. It just means I ended a threat.

    The threat was already eliminated . Danny was caught in a bear trap and couldn't move , Brenda was dead and Andy was beaten to a bloody pulp and walkers were getting in . The St Johns were finished .

    Also , this decision can affect Clem like for example if she is at the community , she might become paranoid and try to kill the 400 Days characters so than they won't become bad guys and hurt her new family ( Omid , Christa and the baby ) just like how the St Johns hurt Mark .
  • edited August 2013
    TTaing987 wrote: »
    Clementine is supposed to act as a moral compass in this game. It's how she was designed. I guess she does get in the way in terms of descion making.


    Yes, I noticed that 400 days my actions were much more evil and bad, there was no moral compass.
    I thought that Becca can be a moral compass, but Becca is already "bad", When I played Shel's chapter (goddamn, I love her) I tried to be more loyal. But it's not works Becca will never change. I afraid that Clementine will become as Becca. ( That's why I tried to protect Clem from terrible things, when I played as Lee)
  • edited August 2013
    You can't blame Becca for the way she acts. The mind is still heavily developing at her age. Any experience like that would traumatize any kid. I guess most people were so used to Clementine's innocence that they forgot about other people.
  • edited August 2013
    Ben Paul wrote: »
    You can't blame Becca for the way she acts. The mind is still heavily developing at her age. Any experience like that would traumatize any kid. I guess most people were so used to Clementine's innocence that they forgot about other people.

    I'm not blame her, How can I blame a child? I just tried to makes her more compassionate or more kind, or... I don't know
  • edited August 2013
    I understand where you're coming from, it seemed like she got worse psychologically in the second half of Shel's story.
  • edited August 2013
    Ben Paul wrote: »
    You can't blame Becca for the way she acts. The mind is still heavily developing at her age. Any experience like that would traumatize any kid. I guess most people were so used to Clementine's innocence that they forgot about other people.

    That's why I don't understand all those Becca haters who want to kill her. For all we know Clem can be like Becca by the day 400. Would those people hate Clem too if that happens?
  • edited August 2013
    If Clem turns into Carl, oh dear God...
  • edited August 2013
    Becca is older than Clem so it's obvious that she won't be innocent like Clem . Who knows , if Shel dies in season 2 than this could change Becca but hopefully she won't follow the same path Lilly did .
  • edited August 2013
    But we can all agree on something...

    If Wyatt and his manly beard die or leave, then the group will never be the same again.
  • edited August 2013
    Ben Paul wrote: »
    But we can all agree on something...

    If Wyatt and his manly beard die or leave, then the group will never be the same again.

    If that ever happens we can just hope that Kenny and his awesome mosutache will return.
  • edited August 2013
    If that ever happens we can just hope that Kenny and his awesome mosutache will return.

    What...what if Kenny never returns!? :eek:
  • edited August 2013
    Ben Paul wrote: »
    What...what if Kenny never returns!? :eek:

    then he hope for a Nate and his Sideburns.
  • edited August 2013
    He will be back, its it what form is the question.
  • edited August 2013
    That's why I don't understand all those Becca haters who want to kill her. For all we know Clem can be like Becca by the day 400. Would those people hate Clem too if that happens?

    What? Who want to kill Becca OMG... how...
  • edited August 2013
    then he hope for a Nate and his Sideburns.

    What if Nate drove off a cliff and died a horrible, gruesome death? :eek:
  • edited August 2013
    Ben Paul wrote: »
    What if Nate drove off a cliff and died a horrible, gruesome death? :eek:

    Then... then... I would hope that Omid will grow awesome beard/moustache.
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