If Ben shows up its really weird, since he was surronded by walkers and was most likely eaten. And I think Clem prefered Omid to Ben, but I'm guessing Russel (if he returns) can have the same kind of relantionship taht Ben had with Clem because of their ages But totally differente personalities, Ben was scared and trusted others and besides every mistake he allways tried to do the right thing, he was mostly weak but goodhearted ( the scenes where he wishes he died really screwed me up since I had that thoughts when I was his age). Russel on the other hand is brave and assertive, doesn't trust other people and fights for what he wants (not just a follower). Ben was more of a friend and Russel could be more of a big brother or something (if she was older possibily a love interest, but I guess not with that age).
I agree but I think she should see Ben, she really liked him and he could become a walker if you dropped him at the bell tower. I also hope Russell from 400days is the new Ben for Clementine.
Yeah, it was just because some people think that others are starting arguments because they have different oppinions and share them Both of us have good points, we'll have to wait and see if TT wants to discart totally Lilly (living to the player to choose if he wants her to be the Lilly from the comics or another one completly different, I mean, if they connect the game with the tv show who's to say she didn't got to woodbury anyways and wasn't in the governos group and his now dead?... that could be a possibility) or want to developed the charatcher as they want giving the players specifics for who Lilly really is.
I'm talking about Clem seeing Lily from her point of view, not some random Lily hater's. Lily might have been a piece of work, but in the end she was still pitiable, even after murdering Carley/Doug in cold blood.
Actually someone (I forgot who) bought up the fact that Clementine doesn't seem phased by the fact that Lilly murdered Carley. Only when she murders Doug does she seem concerned. Maybe this means Clementine can forgive Lilly if they run into each other?
I'm talking about Clem seeing Lily from her point of view, not some random Lily hater's. Lily might have been a piece of work, but in the end she was still pitiable, even after murdering Carley/Doug in cold blood.
I didn't really notice that much difference between her reactions. In my first playthrough, I was worried it was a sign that Clem was getting numb to the horrors occurring around her. (Upon reflection, it's probably at least partly true.)
There's one interesting extra scene that's activated if you bring Lily onto the RV. Clem asks Lee what he's planning to do with her, and Lee's response (regardless of whatever it is) always follows up with a "Clementine will remember this." It could possibly play a factor into a future meeting between Clem and Lily, if she ever ran into her again.
Actually someone (I forgot who) bought up the fact that Clementine doesn't seem phased by the fact that Lilly murdered Carley. Only when she m… moreurders Doug does she seem concerned. Maybe this means Clementine can forgive Lilly if they run into each other?
When Lilly aims at Ben, the characters see it and Clem even shouts "Ben!" there is more time for a reaction. With Carley's death, it came out of nowhere with everyone's head's turned, and I think Clem was horrified just the same, but scared stiff.
I didn't really notice that much difference between her reactions. In my first playthrough, I was worried it was a sign that Clem was getting … morenumb to the horrors occurring around her. (Upon reflection, it's probably at least partly true.)
There's one interesting extra scene that's activated if you bring Lily onto the RV. Clem asks Lee what he's planning to do with her, and Lee's response (regardless of whatever it is) always follows up with a "Clementine will remember this." It could possibly play a factor into a future meeting between Clem and Lily, if she ever ran into her again.
Actually, Lilly seemed to be supporting Kenny she says the line
that 'He's just a kid' however she seems fearful when confronting
her father. We have no idea how her father was, but from what we
can tell Larry was quite aggressive and I'd even imagine Lilly had
trouble working up enough courage to just mutter that line.
Plus we do not know if Lilly was going to force the group to stay
at the Pharmacy - Like she said she was trying to get
nitroglycoren pills for her father. Oh excuse her for trying to
aid a family member.
Even so, in the Walking Dead people are forced to make tough decisions.
I find it quite hypocritcal when it comes to his own butt Kenny is
ready to slam Lilly down for not saving him and his group however
when we clearly saw that girl who needed help - To him, he dismissed
any thought of helping her and even wanted to use her as bait to
drive walkers away from them whilst they scavenged supplies.
Also Kenny did play a key role in helping the group in Episode 1,
yes I'll admit that. However his plan to drive to Savannah just to
get onto a boat was plain stupid and was illogical, because why did
he not think a heavy populated city would have a heavy population
of walkers or why didn't he think people would panic and just try
to steal boats. Even Crawford stole parts from boats and such.
He also having the "guts" to take food from the station wagon
resulted in the death of the Strangers Wife, Daughter, Lee and Ben
and made a madman want to seek Clementine and put her in danger.
Lilly was actually moral and clever and chose not to take from other
people and if the group had simply followed this even if they went
to Savannah the group could have left without Lee dying or Clem
being kidnapped.
Plus those "walker" infested woods seemed pretty safe until there
was all that noise from the "Bear Trap" incident. Noise attracts
walkers and Lee, Mark and Kenny were all being quiet they would have
been fine.
Also there is no implication that Lilly knows about Larry trying to
murder Lee. Just because Kenny, and Clementine witnessed it, doesn't
mean they told her.
What Kenny did to Larry was unforgivable, and pretty much showed he was
hypocritcal. When his son is being accused of turning its immoral but
when its someone elses family - They have to die. No questions asked.
Also if Kenny had thought for a moment, Lee would have been able to
rescue Larry as he took a sharp breath just before Kenny murdered him.
But oh well Lill probably deserves her father to die, because she is
so evil.
Lilly's reason for murdering Carley was pretty obvious, out of all the
possible members of the group. Kenny had a family and would NEVER risk
his family for anything even if it meant stealing meds. Lee wouldn't
risk Clementine. Carley and Ben had no connections and the fact that
Carley seemed intellgent and able to handle herself made it clear that
she could be the only suspect to run this "meds" operation as to Lilly Ben
was "just a kid" who she thought didn't have the intelligence to run
a "med operation" like this.
Though what Lilly did was wrong, she had every reason to suspect it was
Carley.
Oh and whose fault was that gunshot wound? Oh yes, Kenny the man who thought
in order to save my son, I should run towards that gunman in a straight
line whilst he's pointing a gun at me. Apart from this, Lilly had military
training and Carley was the best shot there, if bandits attacked they would
be required to kill them.
Plus there is no evidence suggesting that both Lee and Kenny
displayed their 'shooting skills' to the group, and Ben, Katjaa and
Duck are too weak to send out in scavenging missions and would therefore
need protection and the safest place was the motel.
Lilly had no other option but to send BOTH Lee and Kenny, as sending one
person to gather supplies in the Walking Dead is pretty much a suicide
mission.
Also, just by being brave and doing something. Doesn't mean its the right
thing, Kenny didn't save the group he gave himself a gunshot wound by being
idiotic.
Lee and Carley saved the group (And Lilly if you saved her father).
Also "kind enough to take her"? Yeah, it's so kind to keep someone hostage and imply
that they should get punishment.
The bottom line here, is that. Just go with who YOU think the better leader is?
Yes sure I ripped on Kenny on this, however he does seem courageos and loyal to friends
which are great traits. He's also quite family-oriented and likes to think of other
people (even though he mostly puts his family first.) Sure, I complimented Lilly however
she has her faults such as killing Carley (I said she had reason to suspect her not shoot
her.)
Either way, just thought I'd tackle this argument. I hope I did a good enough job. Also I know I didn't cover everything however it is so damn long and I don't think I'm that good to tackle the WHOLE post.
Sick scumbag Kenny? I'll admit that Kenny isn't a saint, but please read this:
This was a post made a while back in the older forums in a res… moreponse to a post in a team Lilly thread.
"OK, I know this is a Lilly fan thread but I can't help but disagree with all of your reasonings. Those points is something a fan(which I know you are) would say.
The Real Lilly Caul was nothing but a hypocritical, cold, paranoid, unreasonable, whiney, selfish, cowardly, lazy, backstabbing, murderous bitch.
Her idea of staying safe was staying at the Pharmacy, it's obvious she was clueless and didn't know what she was doing. She selfishly was willing to let Lee, Kenny and the rest to die and just stood there while her Dad was talking about throwing out a little kid. Even after the heart attack, she ran up to the guys that she didn't want to help and begged them to help her dad, good thing they had the heart to help. After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terri… [view original content]
Watch the video again and closely look at Clementine when Lilly is pulling out her gun. She clearly sees her pulling it out. I don't know, just thought it was interesting.
When Lilly aims at Ben, the characters see it and Clem even shouts "Ben!" there is more time for a reaction. With Carley's death, it came out of nowhere with everyone's head's turned, and I think Clem was horrified just the same, but scared stiff.
I watched the scene, and I definitely saw Clem turning her head to look at Lily, just as she's reaching back to pull out the gun. Clem had more than enough time to cry out a warning, which is a little...worrisome.
Clem's still young. She probably just assumed Lily was about to do something else, and became confused/shocked upon seeing the gun. Then Lily murdered Carley before she could shout to Lee. If that's what happened, she'd only feel like she had a part in Carley's death, which might explain her long silent phase while Lee is trying to get the train started.
Watch the video again and closely look at Clementine when Lilly is pulling out her gun. She clearly sees her pulling it out. I don't know, just thought it was interesting.
Sick scumbag Kenny? I'll admit that Kenny isn't a saint, but please read this:
This was a post made a while back in the older forums in a res… moreponse to a post in a team Lilly thread.
"OK, I know this is a Lilly fan thread but I can't help but disagree with all of your reasonings. Those points is something a fan(which I know you are) would say.
The Real Lilly Caul was nothing but a hypocritical, cold, paranoid, unreasonable, whiney, selfish, cowardly, lazy, backstabbing, murderous bitch.
Her idea of staying safe was staying at the Pharmacy, it's obvious she was clueless and didn't know what she was doing. She selfishly was willing to let Lee, Kenny and the rest to die and just stood there while her Dad was talking about throwing out a little kid. Even after the heart attack, she ran up to the guys that she didn't want to help and begged them to help her dad, good thing they had the heart to help. After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terri… [view original content]
I watched it again, it does look like she glances over right before it happens. She definitely could never have expected Lilly to do what she did, though. None of us did.
I watched the scene, and I definitely saw Clem turning her head to look at Lily, just as she's reaching back to pull out the gun. Clem had mor… moree than enough time to cry out a warning, which is a little...worrisome.
Clem's still young. She probably just assumed Lily was about to do something else, and became confused/shocked upon seeing the gun. Then Lily murdered Carley before she could shout to Lee. If that's what happened, she'd only feel like she had a part in Carley's death, which might explain her long silent phase while Lee is trying to get the train started.
I think this is the biggest issue with TWD game (while also playing to its greatest strengths): We view our own playthroughs as "what happened," so-to-speak.
For me, Lilly wasn't pitiable at all -- she constantly alienated and attacked everyone in the group, and I knew that she was going to snap at some point...and whose point-of-view are you talking about? Clem's, or Lilly's? Because in my playthroughs, Clem, while maybe not hysterical at losing Carley, seemed resolutely saddened at what happened, but not shaken by Lee's (my) decision -- which was to leave her at the side of the road.
As for the rest of your conjecture...I think it's just that: You're assuming that Clem noticed Lilly going for her gun, which is a detail she could have missed.
I'm talking about Clem seeing Lily from her point of view, not some random Lily hater's. Lily might have been a piece of work, but in the end she was still pitiable, even after murdering Carley/Doug in cold blood.
and whose point-of-view are you talking about? Clem's, or Lilly's?
Clem's. I don't care who you might be, seeing someone you knew as a zombie would be an unnerving experience. You say you don't have any pity for Lily, then that's your prerogative. I only pitied Lily in the sense that you pity a mad dog; it's a sad sight to behold, but a dangerous one all the same.
Besides, at the point we become Clementine, everyone she knew from S1 will either be gone or missing, so seeing Lily in such a state would obviously cause some distress for Clem.
Oh, one other thing: If I'm conjecturing about Clem noticing Lily's gun, then you're conjecturing that Clem doesn't care one iota about Lily's fate. We don't hear enough from Clem on the topic to really know one way or another, aside from the aforementioned talk with Lee if you brought Lily along in the RV.
I think this is the biggest issue with TWD game (while also playing to its greatest strengths): We view our own playthroughs as "what happened… more," so-to-speak.
For me, Lilly wasn't pitiable at all -- she constantly alienated and attacked everyone in the group, and I knew that she was going to snap at some point...and whose point-of-view are you talking about? Clem's, or Lilly's? Because in my playthroughs, Clem, while maybe not hysterical at losing Carley, seemed resolutely saddened at what happened, but not shaken by Lee's (my) decision -- which was to leave her at the side of the road.
As for the rest of your conjecture...I think it's just that: You're assuming that Clem noticed Lilly going for her gun, which is a detail she could have missed.
I guess it would but unnerving...and I guess it does depend on who we're talking about in the apocalypse -- I swear I remember Rick noticing a zombified person (or two) and not batting an eye, but maybe I'm misremembering.
Outlining pity in that sense...I can buy your angle. I thought your posts implied a much more sympathetic stance.
I think it's less conjecture to base my opinion about my playthrough on a multiple-scene dialogue, as opposed to a brief frame of someone's face. I guess you're right in that it's still conjecture, though. It plays back into the first part of my other reply -- we buy too much into our own games!
and whose point-of-view are you talking about? Clem's, or Lilly's?
Clem's. I don't care who you might be, seeing someone you knew as a… more zombie would be an unnerving experience. You say you don't have any pity for Lily, then that's your prerogative. I only pitied Lily in the sense that you pity a mad dog; it's a sad sight to behold, but a dangerous one all the same.
Besides, at the point we become Clementine, everyone she knew from S1 will either be gone or missing, so seeing Lily in such a state would obviously cause some distress for Clem.
Oh, one other thing: If I'm conjecturing about Clem noticing Lily's gun, then you're conjecturing that Clem doesn't care one iota about Lily's fate. We don't hear enough from Clem on the topic to really know one way or another, aside from the aforementioned talk with Lee if you brought Lily along in the RV.
I see her coming back, but not for long, since she'd be moving out to Woodbury. UNLESS she is coming back from there after what happens in the prison with Lori and Judith...that could be a fair point.
The Lilly in the game isn't the same Lilly from the comics. That was the original intention, but Kirkman retconned that fact with "Road to Woodbury", meaning that Game Lilly never goes to Woodbury, or the prison, or kills Lori and Judith. For all we know, Game Lilly is dead in a ditch somewhere, or shambling around some deserted road as a walker. We'll never know unless she shows up in Season 2.
I see her coming back, but not for long, since she'd be moving out to Woodbury. UNLESS she is coming back from there after what happens in the prison with Lori and Judith...that could be a fair point.
KENNY FUCKING KILLED HER DAD DAMMIT! She's gonna be edgy and then Ben was fucking with her even more by dealing their supplies to bandits! She was one of my favorite characters along with Lee, Clementine and Carley. Carley really got to her by using those cut throat words and Lily was emotionally unstable so she made a mistake and lost control and killed Carley. Same goes for Doug, she was really angry that her dad was killed and now someone was stealing supplies and they lost their home so she wanted Ben out and she lost control and shot, Doug so happens to save Ben. It would be sensible and a very great move to bring her back.
I think that bringing back Lilly is a bad move, since her reception appears to be an all time low.
She lost her chance to redeem herself by… more either being abandoned, or when she steals the group's RV out of desperation, after the infamous Carley/Doug incident. Bringing her back means that most players will see her return as an opportunity to see her die, rather than see why she is back, and see what story she has to offer this time around, such as what happened to her since she left the original group. If that was the case, then she serves no purpose to the series anymore and should not be brought back.
From what I read up, the conflict between the Comic Lilly and Game Lilly characters has complicated canon, leaving people to still argue whether they're the same person or not, even if Telltale has mentioned that they are not. Unless Telltale plans to have the two Lillys side by side, the debate will go on.
Just my two cents.
I don't really undestand why people want to put one of the characters on pedestal and push another character down. Both are flawed charcters who murder another group member and can act like a-holes towards Lee. Also both of them have good and bad qualities and neither one is a saint. Personally I tried to balance between them to keep some sort of consensus in the group, because occasionally both of them had idiotic ideas. Sometimes I wish that game would have given option tell them just to shut up and establish your own version of "Ricktatorship", but those two just kept complaining and pushing their own ideas even if you told them to shut up.
KENNY FUCKING KILLED HER DAD DAMMIT! She's gonna be edgy and then Ben was fucking with her even more by dealing their supplies to bandits! She… more was one of my favorite characters along with Lee, Clementine and Carley. Carley really got to her by using those cut throat words and Lily was emotionally unstable so she made a mistake and lost control and killed Carley. Same goes for Doug, she was really angry that her dad was killed and now someone was stealing supplies and they lost their home so she wanted Ben out and she lost control and shot, Doug so happens to save Ben. It would be sensible and a very great move to bring her back.
I'm not completely opposed to Telltale bringing back Lilly, I would like to see her story continue, but I understand that for that to work she needs to have a reason to stick around in Season 2. Telltale have plans for Kenny since he is going to show up in Season 2 in some way (as a cameo or a supporting character, we don't know), but no word has been made for Lilly, so there must be no current plans for her as of yet.
Kenny can be downright satanic in some playthroughs. (His lowest moment, without a shadow of a doubt, was refusing to help Clementine.) I woul… moredn't be at all surprised if he returned as a complete lunatic in S2, if he shared an antagonistic relationship with Lee in S1. But the fact Lily reveals your secret to the group no matter what you do is still frustrating, and proves she's an inherently bad individual.
I hated Lilly. In my play-throughs, she was a short-fused, selfish, useless bitch. Kenny was a family man who tried to take care of the whole group. Despite losing everything, Kenny still stuck by, helped Lee n the others out, he survived. He played his part. Lilly just fucks it up and kills an innocent. In front of everyone. In front of Clem. I really hope they don't bring her back. When I left her outside the RV I felt a sense of justice! :P I assume Kenny is dead but I still like that there is a possibility he made it out. I'd be happy to see him again, even if it were just a flashback of sorts, an explanation of exactly what became of him or maybe just finding some open-ended evidence that shows it could've gone either way. Mystery n shit
I hated Lilly. In my play-throughs, she was a short-fused, selfish, useless bitch. Kenny was a family man who tried to take care of the whole … moregroup. Despite losing everything, Kenny still stuck by, helped Lee n the others out, he survived. He played his part. Lilly just fucks it up and kills an innocent. In front of everyone. In front of Clem. I really hope they don't bring her back. When I left her outside the RV I felt a sense of justice! :P I assume Kenny is dead but I still like that there is a possibility he made it out. I'd be happy to see him again, even if it were just a flashback of sorts, an explanation of exactly what became of him or maybe just finding some open-ended evidence that shows it could've gone either way. Mystery n shit
The Lilly in the game isn't the same Lilly from the comics. That was the original intention, but Kirkman retconned that fact with "Road to Woo… moredbury", meaning that Game Lilly never goes to Woodbury, or the prison, or kills Lori and Judith. For all we know, Game Lilly is dead in a ditch somewhere, or shambling around some deserted road as a walker. We'll never know unless she shows up in Season 2.
On the other hand, if Lilly never returns, I can at least believe that she's the Lilly from the comics. It made complete sense that she sort of "redeemed" herself for Doug/Carley's death for what she did in the comics.
"I also hope Russell from 400days is the new Ben for Clementine."
Oh, I do not want another Ben. I really wish there had been a choice to leave him behind at the start of Episode 2
I agree but I think she should see Ben, she really liked him and he could become a walker if you dropped him at the bell tower. I also hope Russell from 400days is the new Ben for Clementine.
But he's always against Lee. He blames Lee for EVERYTHING and if something goes right, no "thank you" or anything like that, he just takes all the credit and thinks only of himself.
Well the thing is the characters change so much based on how you treat them and their families. (Although I would remind you that Kenny also killed an innocent in front of Clem)
In my playthrough, Kenny was a ruthless, mean asshole who didn't give a damn about anyone other than Katjaa, Duck and himself, and wouldn't stop yelling at lee just because he didn't agree with everything he did.
In my playthrough, Lilly was very caring, got on with Clem, and loved her father a hell of a lot. Then her world was torn apart when Kenny slaughtered Larry; she lost everything she was fighting for. After that, she felt like she could trust no-one: then Carley started calling her a bitch and she snapped.
She had lost everything.
No family.
No friends.
Emptiness.
After her mistake she knew everyone hated her, so she felt that she needed to get away. Just before doing so, she apologized to my Lee, the only person who had been nice to her.
I hated Lilly. In my play-throughs, she was a short-fused, selfish, useless bitch. Kenny was a family man who tried to take care of the whole … moregroup. Despite losing everything, Kenny still stuck by, helped Lee n the others out, he survived. He played his part. Lilly just fucks it up and kills an innocent. In front of everyone. In front of Clem. I really hope they don't bring her back. When I left her outside the RV I felt a sense of justice! :P I assume Kenny is dead but I still like that there is a possibility he made it out. I'd be happy to see him again, even if it were just a flashback of sorts, an explanation of exactly what became of him or maybe just finding some open-ended evidence that shows it could've gone either way. Mystery n shit
Lilly was incredibly stressed out at that point. Her dad had just been murdered. Someone was betraying the group which made her extra paranoid. Her group got raided and they had to flee without their supplies. (She might've even seen Duck get bit; she was in the perfect vantage point for it, though why she wouldn't bring it up, I can't say)
She did kill Carley, but not in cold blood like a bunch of people keep saying. It was a crime of passion, from stress and fear and anxiety and pain. She fucked up, but effectively no more than Kenny or especially Ben fucked up. I don't get why people are so eager to defend those two and not the one they keep, keep, keep calling a bitch. I imagine it does have something to do with misogyny, though, because these things tend to. That and such vigorous use of bitch goes along with such things. -_-
Well the thing is the characters change so much based on how you treat them and their families. (Although I would remind you that Kenny also k… moreilled an innocent in front of Clem)
In my playthrough, Kenny was a ruthless, mean asshole who didn't give a damn about anyone other than Katjaa, Duck and himself, and wouldn't stop yelling at lee just because he didn't agree with everything he did.
In my playthrough, Lilly was very caring, got on with Clem, and loved her father a hell of a lot. Then her world was torn apart when Kenny slaughtered Larry; she lost everything she was fighting for. After that, she felt like she could trust no-one: then Carley started calling her a bitch and she snapped.
She had lost everything.
No family.
No friends.
Emptiness.
After her mistake she knew everyone hated her, so she felt that she needed to get away. Just before doing so, she apologized to my Lee, the only person who had been nice to her.
You're right in that Lilly's reasons for doing so are stress, but her situation in the end is completely different from both Ben's and Kenny's. Neither Ben or Killy ever directly killed anyone without it either being a result of a mistake or having some sort of sound reasoning behind it. Kenny killed Larry, but it was because if Larry turned and killed them, they wouldn't be able to do anything to save Duck and Katjaa. The biggest one I could see is Kenny basically advocating dropping Ben, and many people don't get as pissed at that because not too many people liked Ben at that point.
I agree Lilly didn't kill Carley in cold blood, but it was ultimately murder for no good reason. Whether you think so or not, people are entirely justified in calling her a bit*h because she performed a crime that most likely killed one of the player's favorite character at the time. It's a word specified towards females and is often misused in many situations, but in the same way 'bastard' is specified towards males. It shows how people don't like her due to the actions she committed. In the end, Lilly isn't a character made to be liked, or she's at least made in the same way that Kenny is in that she's supposed to divide people in those who hate her, those who can excuse her, and those in between.
I'm not really too fond of either Kenny or Lilly coming back, but since Lilly is no longer the same character in the comics, I agree I'd rather her come back before Kenny does. As far as I'm concerned, Kenny basically had a full story arc that ended on enough of a note to be resolved or left there. If there's a big reason I wouldn't want Lilly to come back, it's because I'm not too fond of just having characters constantly recurring in the series. To me, it's more impactful for people to go separate ways or leave and simply never no what happened with them.
Comments
If Ben shows up its really weird, since he was surronded by walkers and was most likely eaten. And I think Clem prefered Omid to Ben, but I'm guessing Russel (if he returns) can have the same kind of relantionship taht Ben had with Clem because of their ages
But totally differente personalities, Ben was scared and trusted others and besides every mistake he allways tried to do the right thing, he was mostly weak but goodhearted ( the scenes where he wishes he died really screwed me up since I had that thoughts when I was his age). Russel on the other hand is brave and assertive, doesn't trust other people and fights for what he wants (not just a follower). Ben was more of a friend and Russel could be more of a big brother or something (if she was older possibily a love interest, but I guess not with that age).
Yeah, it was just because some people think that others are starting arguments because they have different oppinions and share them
Both of us have good points, we'll have to wait and see if TT wants to discart totally Lilly (living to the player to choose if he wants her to be the Lilly from the comics or another one completly different, I mean, if they connect the game with the tv show who's to say she didn't got to woodbury anyways and wasn't in the governos group and his now dead?... that could be a possibility) or want to developed the charatcher as they want giving the players specifics for who Lilly really is.
I'm talking about Clem seeing Lily from her point of view, not some random Lily hater's. Lily might have been a piece of work, but in the end she was still pitiable, even after murdering Carley/Doug in cold blood.
Actually someone (I forgot who) bought up the fact that Clementine doesn't seem phased by the fact that Lilly murdered Carley. Only when she murders Doug does she seem concerned. Maybe this means Clementine can forgive Lilly if they run into each other?
I didn't really notice that much difference between her reactions. In my first playthrough, I was worried it was a sign that Clem was getting numb to the horrors occurring around her. (Upon reflection, it's probably at least partly true.)
There's one interesting extra scene that's activated if you bring Lily onto the RV. Clem asks Lee what he's planning to do with her, and Lee's response (regardless of whatever it is) always follows up with a "Clementine will remember this." It could possibly play a factor into a future meeting between Clem and Lily, if she ever ran into her again.
That's tragic, it'll be hard for me to deal with whatever incarnation of Lilly they'll potentially use, knowing she was a "failed prospect" of sorts.
When Lilly aims at Ben, the characters see it and Clem even shouts "Ben!" there is more time for a reaction. With Carley's death, it came out of nowhere with everyone's head's turned, and I think Clem was horrified just the same, but scared stiff.
Actually, Lilly seemed to be supporting Kenny she says the line
that 'He's just a kid' however she seems fearful when confronting
her father. We have no idea how her father was, but from what we
can tell Larry was quite aggressive and I'd even imagine Lilly had
trouble working up enough courage to just mutter that line.
Plus we do not know if Lilly was going to force the group to stay
at the Pharmacy - Like she said she was trying to get
nitroglycoren pills for her father. Oh excuse her for trying to
aid a family member.
Even so, in the Walking Dead people are forced to make tough decisions.
I find it quite hypocritcal when it comes to his own butt Kenny is
ready to slam Lilly down for not saving him and his group however
when we clearly saw that girl who needed help - To him, he dismissed
any thought of helping her and even wanted to use her as bait to
drive walkers away from them whilst they scavenged supplies.
Also Kenny did play a key role in helping the group in Episode 1,
yes I'll admit that. However his plan to drive to Savannah just to
get onto a boat was plain stupid and was illogical, because why did
he not think a heavy populated city would have a heavy population
of walkers or why didn't he think people would panic and just try
to steal boats. Even Crawford stole parts from boats and such.
He also having the "guts" to take food from the station wagon
resulted in the death of the Strangers Wife, Daughter, Lee and Ben
and made a madman want to seek Clementine and put her in danger.
Lilly was actually moral and clever and chose not to take from other
people and if the group had simply followed this even if they went
to Savannah the group could have left without Lee dying or Clem
being kidnapped.
Plus those "walker" infested woods seemed pretty safe until there
was all that noise from the "Bear Trap" incident. Noise attracts
walkers and Lee, Mark and Kenny were all being quiet they would have
been fine.
Also there is no implication that Lilly knows about Larry trying to
murder Lee. Just because Kenny, and Clementine witnessed it, doesn't
mean they told her.
What Kenny did to Larry was unforgivable, and pretty much showed he was
hypocritcal. When his son is being accused of turning its immoral but
when its someone elses family - They have to die. No questions asked.
Also if Kenny had thought for a moment, Lee would have been able to
rescue Larry as he took a sharp breath just before Kenny murdered him.
But oh well Lill probably deserves her father to die, because she is
so evil.
Lilly's reason for murdering Carley was pretty obvious, out of all the
possible members of the group. Kenny had a family and would NEVER risk
his family for anything even if it meant stealing meds. Lee wouldn't
risk Clementine. Carley and Ben had no connections and the fact that
Carley seemed intellgent and able to handle herself made it clear that
she could be the only suspect to run this "meds" operation as to Lilly Ben
was "just a kid" who she thought didn't have the intelligence to run
a "med operation" like this.
Though what Lilly did was wrong, she had every reason to suspect it was
Carley.
Oh and whose fault was that gunshot wound? Oh yes, Kenny the man who thought
in order to save my son, I should run towards that gunman in a straight
line whilst he's pointing a gun at me. Apart from this, Lilly had military
training and Carley was the best shot there, if bandits attacked they would
be required to kill them.
Plus there is no evidence suggesting that both Lee and Kenny
displayed their 'shooting skills' to the group, and Ben, Katjaa and
Duck are too weak to send out in scavenging missions and would therefore
need protection and the safest place was the motel.
Lilly had no other option but to send BOTH Lee and Kenny, as sending one
person to gather supplies in the Walking Dead is pretty much a suicide
mission.
Also, just by being brave and doing something. Doesn't mean its the right
thing, Kenny didn't save the group he gave himself a gunshot wound by being
idiotic.
Lee and Carley saved the group (And Lilly if you saved her father).
Also "kind enough to take her"? Yeah, it's so kind to keep someone hostage and imply
that they should get punishment.
The bottom line here, is that. Just go with who YOU think the better leader is?
Yes sure I ripped on Kenny on this, however he does seem courageos and loyal to friends
which are great traits. He's also quite family-oriented and likes to think of other
people (even though he mostly puts his family first.) Sure, I complimented Lilly however
she has her faults such as killing Carley (I said she had reason to suspect her not shoot
her.)
Either way, just thought I'd tackle this argument. I hope I did a good enough job. Also I know I didn't cover everything however it is so damn long and I don't think I'm that good to tackle the WHOLE post.
Watch the video again and closely look at Clementine when Lilly is pulling out her gun. She clearly sees her pulling it out. I don't know, just thought it was interesting.
I watched the scene, and I definitely saw Clem turning her head to look at Lily, just as she's reaching back to pull out the gun. Clem had more than enough time to cry out a warning, which is a little...worrisome.
Clem's still young. She probably just assumed Lily was about to do something else, and became confused/shocked upon seeing the gun. Then Lily murdered Carley before she could shout to Lee. If that's what happened, she'd only feel like she had a part in Carley's death, which might explain her long silent phase while Lee is trying to get the train started.
I wan't to stab Lilly and feed her to the walkers!
I watched it again, it does look like she glances over right before it happens. She definitely could never have expected Lilly to do what she did, though. None of us did.
I think this is the biggest issue with TWD game (while also playing to its greatest strengths): We view our own playthroughs as "what happened," so-to-speak.
For me, Lilly wasn't pitiable at all -- she constantly alienated and attacked everyone in the group, and I knew that she was going to snap at some point...and whose point-of-view are you talking about? Clem's, or Lilly's? Because in my playthroughs, Clem, while maybe not hysterical at losing Carley, seemed resolutely saddened at what happened, but not shaken by Lee's (my) decision -- which was to leave her at the side of the road.
As for the rest of your conjecture...I think it's just that: You're assuming that Clem noticed Lilly going for her gun, which is a detail she could have missed.
Clem's. I don't care who you might be, seeing someone you knew as a zombie would be an unnerving experience. You say you don't have any pity for Lily, then that's your prerogative. I only pitied Lily in the sense that you pity a mad dog; it's a sad sight to behold, but a dangerous one all the same.
Besides, at the point we become Clementine, everyone she knew from S1 will either be gone or missing, so seeing Lily in such a state would obviously cause some distress for Clem.
Oh, one other thing: If I'm conjecturing about Clem noticing Lily's gun, then you're conjecturing that Clem doesn't care one iota about Lily's fate. We don't hear enough from Clem on the topic to really know one way or another, aside from the aforementioned talk with Lee if you brought Lily along in the RV.
I guess it would but unnerving...and I guess it does depend on who we're talking about in the apocalypse -- I swear I remember Rick noticing a zombified person (or two) and not batting an eye, but maybe I'm misremembering.
Outlining pity in that sense...I can buy your angle. I thought your posts implied a much more sympathetic stance.
I think it's less conjecture to base my opinion about my playthrough on a multiple-scene dialogue, as opposed to a brief frame of someone's face. I guess you're right in that it's still conjecture, though. It plays back into the first part of my other reply -- we buy too much into our own games!
I see her coming back, but not for long, since she'd be moving out to Woodbury. UNLESS she is coming back from there after what happens in the prison with Lori and Judith...that could be a fair point.
The Lilly in the game isn't the same Lilly from the comics. That was the original intention, but Kirkman retconned that fact with "Road to Woodbury", meaning that Game Lilly never goes to Woodbury, or the prison, or kills Lori and Judith. For all we know, Game Lilly is dead in a ditch somewhere, or shambling around some deserted road as a walker. We'll never know unless she shows up in Season 2.
KENNY FUCKING KILLED HER DAD DAMMIT! She's gonna be edgy and then Ben was fucking with her even more by dealing their supplies to bandits! She was one of my favorite characters along with Lee, Clementine and Carley. Carley really got to her by using those cut throat words and Lily was emotionally unstable so she made a mistake and lost control and killed Carley. Same goes for Doug, she was really angry that her dad was killed and now someone was stealing supplies and they lost their home so she wanted Ben out and she lost control and shot, Doug so happens to save Ben. It would be sensible and a very great move to bring her back.
I don't really undestand why people want to put one of the characters on pedestal and push another character down. Both are flawed charcters who murder another group member and can act like a-holes towards Lee. Also both of them have good and bad qualities and neither one is a saint. Personally I tried to balance between them to keep some sort of consensus in the group, because occasionally both of them had idiotic ideas. Sometimes I wish that game would have given option tell them just to shut up and establish your own version of "Ricktatorship", but those two just kept complaining and pushing their own ideas even if you told them to shut up.
I'm happy Kenny's dead. I hated that guy from the very beginning. Rest in hell kenny!
Who is this message directed to? Me or DLGR13? Sorry for asking, but I'm not used to the comments layout.
You.
lol! Why? I had my many arguments with Kenny bus he was my boy!
I'm not completely opposed to Telltale bringing back Lilly, I would like to see her story continue, but I understand that for that to work she needs to have a reason to stick around in Season 2. Telltale have plans for Kenny since he is going to show up in Season 2 in some way (as a cameo or a supporting character, we don't know), but no word has been made for Lilly, so there must be no current plans for her as of yet.
Saying someone is 'Inherently bad' based on one action alone is quite a stretch.
I hated Lilly. In my play-throughs, she was a short-fused, selfish, useless bitch. Kenny was a family man who tried to take care of the whole group. Despite losing everything, Kenny still stuck by, helped Lee n the others out, he survived. He played his part. Lilly just fucks it up and kills an innocent. In front of everyone. In front of Clem. I really hope they don't bring her back. When I left her outside the RV I felt a sense of justice! :P I assume Kenny is dead but I still like that there is a possibility he made it out. I'd be happy to see him again, even if it were just a flashback of sorts, an explanation of exactly what became of him or maybe just finding some open-ended evidence that shows it could've gone either way. Mystery n shit
I concur, Lily can stay gone as far as I'm concerned. Let her be the mystery that goes unsolved, not Kenny.
I guess you're right, I just don't want the game to be so different. But yeah, it's a fair point.
This thread has gone too far. Hahaha
On the other hand, if Lilly never returns, I can at least believe that she's the Lilly from the comics. It made complete sense that she sort of "redeemed" herself for Doug/Carley's death for what she did in the comics.
But she shot Carley on purpose, just because she(Lily) couldn't handle the truth...
"I also hope Russell from 400days is the new Ben for Clementine."
Oh, I do not want another Ben. I really wish there had been a choice to leave him behind at the start of Episode 2
But he's always against Lee. He blames Lee for EVERYTHING and if something goes right, no "thank you" or anything like that, he just takes all the credit and thinks only of himself.
What truth are you referring to? I don't really understand
Carley was basically saying Lily was overreacting, whiny and scared, which was what prompted Lily to shoot her.
Well the thing is the characters change so much based on how you treat them and their families. (Although I would remind you that Kenny also killed an innocent in front of Clem)
In my playthrough, Kenny was a ruthless, mean asshole who didn't give a damn about anyone other than Katjaa, Duck and himself, and wouldn't stop yelling at lee just because he didn't agree with everything he did.
In my playthrough, Lilly was very caring, got on with Clem, and loved her father a hell of a lot. Then her world was torn apart when Kenny slaughtered Larry; she lost everything she was fighting for. After that, she felt like she could trust no-one: then Carley started calling her a bitch and she snapped.
She had lost everything.
No family.
No friends.
Emptiness.
After her mistake she knew everyone hated her, so she felt that she needed to get away. Just before doing so, she apologized to my Lee, the only person who had been nice to her.
So what about Carley then?
My playthrough led me to similar conclusions.
Lilly was incredibly stressed out at that point. Her dad had just been murdered. Someone was betraying the group which made her extra paranoid. Her group got raided and they had to flee without their supplies. (She might've even seen Duck get bit; she was in the perfect vantage point for it, though why she wouldn't bring it up, I can't say)
She did kill Carley, but not in cold blood like a bunch of people keep saying. It was a crime of passion, from stress and fear and anxiety and pain. She fucked up, but effectively no more than Kenny or especially Ben fucked up. I don't get why people are so eager to defend those two and not the one they keep, keep, keep calling a bitch. I imagine it does have something to do with misogyny, though, because these things tend to. That and such vigorous use of bitch goes along with such things. -_-
You're right in that Lilly's reasons for doing so are stress, but her situation in the end is completely different from both Ben's and Kenny's. Neither Ben or Killy ever directly killed anyone without it either being a result of a mistake or having some sort of sound reasoning behind it. Kenny killed Larry, but it was because if Larry turned and killed them, they wouldn't be able to do anything to save Duck and Katjaa. The biggest one I could see is Kenny basically advocating dropping Ben, and many people don't get as pissed at that because not too many people liked Ben at that point.
I agree Lilly didn't kill Carley in cold blood, but it was ultimately murder for no good reason. Whether you think so or not, people are entirely justified in calling her a bit*h because she performed a crime that most likely killed one of the player's favorite character at the time. It's a word specified towards females and is often misused in many situations, but in the same way 'bastard' is specified towards males. It shows how people don't like her due to the actions she committed. In the end, Lilly isn't a character made to be liked, or she's at least made in the same way that Kenny is in that she's supposed to divide people in those who hate her, those who can excuse her, and those in between.
I'm not really too fond of either Kenny or Lilly coming back, but since Lilly is no longer the same character in the comics, I agree I'd rather her come back before Kenny does. As far as I'm concerned, Kenny basically had a full story arc that ended on enough of a note to be resolved or left there. If there's a big reason I wouldn't want Lilly to come back, it's because I'm not too fond of just having characters constantly recurring in the series. To me, it's more impactful for people to go separate ways or leave and simply never no what happened with them.