No linearity, please...

Unknown

I have noticed that both Bone games are really linear... all events go one after the other... now that's not the spirit of games previously designed and built by our great guys at telltale... i wish for the sam and max games to be like the hit the road one. A game that you can play for months because you don't know that a flask is usefull to fix a malfunctioning escelator... so despite me usually encouraging the story part of the game i wish it to be less story and more tricky puzzles.... and less help... (i don't like the help feature of the bone games...)

Thanks and i'm sure you'll make meny great games!!

Matt from Slovenia (the chicken like country east of italy)

Unknown

I strongly agree here..

The best thing about S&M: Hit the Road was its non-linear approach. Not just in the way it enhanced interactivity tenfold but also in the way that when you became stuck in the story or just felt like exploring you could find millions of easter eggs and hidden dialog by searching, looking at things and talking to people. I had played through the game over 20 times before I realised you could walk into "Bosco's Gun Shop" at the start of the game which rewarded me with a rather funny easter egg/hidden dialog which had no point in the game other than to be there waiting to be found. That .. more of that, make sure you have LOTS of that... delay it if you have to.

Haggis

You have to keep in mind that back then, it was a lot easier to put in these little extra sequences. The only thing you had to do was create art for an additional room, and script in some extra dialogue. Nowadays doing something like that would be a lot more work.

Also, yes, Hit the Road was a great game, but Telltale aren't making Hit the Road 2, but an entirely new series of games based on Sam & Max. It'll still be an adventure game, but it won't be a SCUMM game, so you really can't compare it to that.

Unknown

I dont really see how it makes a difference, according to the "most frequently asked questions" on the web site they state that using 3D graphics is easier than 2D. Because you only have to create a room or a model then stick in some physics rather than having to draw everything frame by frame.

And I cant see adding some more voices here and there being any harder than it was back then .. at the very least give us a bunch of bonus dialog to look for, thats what Sam & Max is all about after all - funny dialog.

This isnt about copying Hit the Road, its about what works better or worse. For Sam & Max I cant see the linear approach being at all favorable over the "interactive universe" approach, without the jokes and funny action relative to what you click on and look at it just isnt Sam & Max.

Haggis

Well, for me, Sam & Max is about the humour, not necessarily about the interactivity. Sure, interactivity is cool, but it is not inherent to Sam & Max, because it's a comic first and foremost. And as much as I'd love to have all those little nooks and crannies to explore, I just don't see it happening with 2-hour episodes. So I'll just see what Telltale throws at us, and as long as it has Sam & Max's trademark insane humour, you won't hear me complaining.

Unknown

You have to keep in mind that back then, it was a lot easier to put in these little extra sequences. The only thing you had to do was create art for an additional room, and script in some extra dialogue. Nowadays doing something like that would be a lot more work.

Actually Tenka is right - according to the FAQ on this page it is in fact easier to do this nowdays. And I see nothing preventing Telltale to add this kind of content in the game. They haven't denied that would be extra easter-eggy situations which you could stumble upon.

If I'd have to put a wager in, I'd say that they are probably including a few of these in each episode. Wouldn't make sense not to.

Haggis

Sure, on the whole it may be easier to create an entire game in 3D than in 2D - however, if you have 50-something locations in a 2D game, adding 1 more for an easter egg isn't that hard. So appending extra stuff would in fact be harder in 3D, but that's just my gut feeling. I base this on the fact that 2D games have a lot of locations, whereas the Bone games didn't have as many. Or maybe that's just my imagination and someone will prove me utterly wrong, being the fool I am.

Emily

I base this on the fact that 2D games have a lot of locations, whereas the Bone games didn't have as many. Or maybe that's just my imagination and someone will prove me utterly wrong, being the fool I am.

Nope, sorry. The number of locations in the Bone games doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the game is in 3D instead of 2D.

As for easter eggs, consider some of the added animations in The Great Cow Race, like when Fone Bone looks under the pot in Gran'ma's yard, or Phoney tries to straighten the picture in the tavern. These aren't exactly easter eggs, but they're along the same lines, and they're very easy to program into the game in 3D, using Telltale's engine.

Haggis

Thanks for proving me wrong, heh. *hides in his dark corner again*

Unknown

i also hate that linearity...
I want the new Sam & Max games somehow similar like Hit the Road... so i wan't that there are situations that can be very easy... but that can take u thinking and trying a whole day...

Hit The Road can be played till the end very fast if u know what u have to do... i don't like if u get an exact way ... so that u can't do something wrong.. or can't miss something...

In Hit The Road it often simply happened that u missed to do something... and run along everyplace u already where... and looked at everything again and again just to find out what u've missed... it should not be to easy to find the next thing you can do.

jp-30

I didn't find Cow Race linear. Yo ucould swap between characters and attempt the tasks in any order.

Given Sam & Max episodes will be smaller than Cow Race though, there's only so much 'non-linearity' that can be contained, surely.

For me, getting to do things in a non set order is WAY down my 'wishlist'. Story, humour, graphics, writing, puzzles, voicework all majorly outrank the ability to do things in any order.

Unknown

I'm another one who would love the non-linear approach.. unfortunately I just don't see it happening.. You have to solve a case in a 2 hour game..how can that be done without forcing you to progress the story in a very direct path? :-/

Unknown

For me, getting to do things in a non set order is WAY down my 'wishlist'.

But it is on your wishlist. It's on mine, too.


I agree though, non-linearity such as that in the Great 3:-O Race isn't really that important to me. That's a whole different beast than these extra things to do. This topic is discussed in the gameplay thread, too.

Unknown

I guess this could come under non-linearity...

A really cool thing about the original Sam and Max was the whole map idea, there wasn't just one big area you had to keep exploring until you got to move on to the next big area, there were lots of small areas you could keep coming back to. I think Telltale have already said there isn't going to be a map but it would be cool if there was the same idea of small areas you could go back to. If places turned up from past episodes that would be a great 'ooo I regognise that place' moment (Or even places from Hit the Road, bring back Snuckey's! )

Unknown

Well, for me, Sam & Max is about the humour, not necessarily about the interactivity. Sure, interactivity is cool, but it is not inherent to Sam & Max, because it's a comic first and foremost. And as much as I'd love to have all those little nooks and crannies to explore, I just don't see it happening with 2-hour episodes. So I'll just see what Telltale throws at us, and as long as it has Sam & Max's trademark insane humour, you won't hear me complaining.

Ah yes I rather agree with that. I love the warning sticker on the box, about twisted humor, that was funny. The first thing I did was explore on hit and run (I do it on EVERY adventure game, you never know...) so I found out about going into bosco's store in the first 2-5 minutes of gameplay (excluding the intro and credits). Even if interactivity isn't a must, well, it must be there to be a game of the sorts ) .

Unknown

As for easter eggs, consider some of the added animations in The Great Cow Race, like when Fone Bone looks under the pot in Gran'ma's yard, or Phoney tries to straighten the picture in the tavern. These aren't exactly easter eggs, but they're along the same lines, and they're very easy to program into the game in 3D, using Telltale's engine.

Thanks, the reassurance that its do-able and there will be "some" is pleasing to hear. I would like to somehow press you guys to jam as much in as possible but I guess I wont be raising my expectations so far. If you cant give us true non-linearity, jamming it with millions of cool additives will be the next best thing.

I havent played Great Cow Race yet.. I intend to after my Final Exams.

Unknown

i wish it to be less story and more tricky puzzles....

I couldn't disagree with this more strongly. If the story is going to be sacrificed for the sake of non-linearity, then I might as well play an MMORPG. Story in adventure games is vital. If you want to tell a story in an interesting way, there has to be some form of linearity. A non linear game just allows you to solve all the puzzles in any order, at which it stops becoming a story and ends up simply being a collection of puzzles.

and less help... (i don't like the help feature of the bone games...)

This, however, I couldn't agree more with.

jp-30

Well why don't you two just turn the Help feature off in the Bone setup page?

I don't care for it either personally, so I turned it off. But no doubt many people find it extremely useful. And it has varying degrees of hints to really nudge you in the right direction before giving you any outright solutions.


I though it it was extremely well implemented. Though maybe in Sam & Max it should be Off by default, rather than On as in Bone.

Unknown

I want a story, otherwise I'm going to hate everything.

(Don't you love posts like these?)

Unknown

I though it it was extremely well implemented. Though maybe in Sam & Max it should be Off by default, rather than On as in Bone.

That's a very good point. It should be turned Off by default. Otherwise weak minded people such as myself might resort to it if it's looming in the bottom right corner by default.

I'm not kidding, it really should be off by default and I think it would be a substantial change. It might sound silly, but not everyone changes the options at all from the default ones. If it would be turned off normally, there would be a higher treshold to use it and players would try harder to solve the puzzles by themselves, thus giving additional play time and more rewarding experiences.

Emily

Remember that Bone is intended for a slightly different audience... people who might not necessarily be familiar with adventure games. The tutorial is on by default, too, for the same reason. I personally find this annoying, and I turn it off the first chance I get. But in the case of the Bone games, we'd rather reach that audience right off the bat. It's not so hard for experienced adventure gamers to go into the options and turn them off.

Interesting idea to change the defaults in Sam & Max, though. And for all I know, it might even be something the designers are already planning to do.

Unknown

Oh, I didn't know you could turn off that tutorial, ) . Stupid me.

jp-30

The tutorial is different to the hint sytem, and both can be turned off.

Pvt._Public

Judging from the fact that each of the games will be quite short and also due to the fact that this is a series, I assume there'll some degree of linearity. If you want to tell a story then you can't really just throw in a bunch of locations and say 'have fun'. I'm sure there'll be a lot of things to see and do but you'll also be guided towards specific places. It makes for a slightly less overwhelming experience as well. Like Dreamfall. Solve some puzzles, get told to go over somewhere else, walk through a tunnel, end up in a cave with no return. Shuttled from place to place. Actually, that would be the best way to do it. It allows you to get on with advancing the plot but allows you to explore. Simply break the locations up into smaller sets of locations where you can only access the ones needed at the time. Also eliminates that whole 'So I have a bent spanner. Where do I go now? Fish world? The carnival? The mystery spot? etc...?' factor.

Unknown

It is obvious that this is necessity. ) Do the math:
(12 episodes or similar) each episode has it's own locations and each episode is own game. Next episode most likely won't include locations before, so therefore it will be linear, at least *more* linear than in games that are released as one.

You can't fix this, if you consider this as an problem, I've not yet made my mind is it problem or not. I need to see the final product first to make my judgment. People have tried to explain to me that it won't be straight forward but I just can't see how that is possible.

I'd just like to see how one can make non-linear game by splitting to (let's say 12) pieces the way that each piece is stand-alone game :-/

Jake

It is obvious that this is necessity. ) Do the math:
(12 episodes or similar) each episode has it's own locations and each episode is own game. Next episode most likely won't include locations before, so therefore it will be linear, at least *more* linear than in games that are released as one.

You can't fix this, if you consider this as an problem, I've not yet made my mind is it problem or not. I need to see the final product first to make my judgment. People have tried to explain to me that it won't be straight forward but I just can't see how that is possible.

I'd just like to see how one can make non-linear game by splitting to (let's say 12) pieces the way that each piece is stand-alone game :-/

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.

Haggis

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.

But the thing that made Day of the Tentacle so complex (and fun!) is the fact that you had to switch between characters and really had to interact with them - not through speech, but through the Chron-O-Johns. So there'd better be something in this new Sam & Max game that'll make it more complex than just going from point A to B and back!

Unknown

Grim Fandango was going from point A to B and back, and that's one of the greatest adventures ever made, just like Day of the Tentacle. Both methods can work fantastically, if done right.

Unknown

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.

Now, first of all, I'm not even assuming that S&M2 will be even close to best adventure game of whole universe (DOTT). And still I think that the episodic way makes it more straight forward as every puzzle is limited to the episode itself.

In terms of DOTT this would mean that exploring would be cut off, and you could NOT play simultaneously different parts with each character in the game. So if we cut DOTT to twelve pieces (which btw is impossible) it would mean that each episode contains piece of some character exploring a little, now it would diminish the mood totally. Since DOTT includes several little puzzles that you can play almost anytime in the game which makes it so much more interesting. Important: So you can start doing other puzzle while doing other, now when we cut DOTT to twelve pieces that means each episode is own puzzle, now this disables the possibility doing these other puzzles in the side. As the next episode does NOT know what parts have you discovered of this "irrelevant" side puzzle.

In simple: episodic presentation makes impossible to create simultaneous puzzles. The scale of the locations is not the only problem.

Unknown

But the thing that made Day of the Tentacle so complex (and fun!) is the fact that you had to switch between characters and really had to interact with them - not through speech, but through the Chron-O-Johns. So there'd better be something in this new Sam & Max game that'll make it more complex than just going from point A to B and back!

And this is impossible with episodic own game presentation. As the next episode has no idea what you have collected with each person.

Unknown

Yeah I'm struggling to get my head around how much you can actually do in a game in 2 hours.. In 2 hours of say Grim Fandango i've checked out locations picked up a few items and maybe solved one puzzle.. how could you go through a storyline of an "episode" playing a game .. in this time?

DOTT had just 1 house..but it was 3 different time periods..3 characters.. ability to send items to each other..many verbs.. a heap of items to pick up and look at.. a lot of people to talk to.. that just extended the gameplay massively.. in 2 hours of dott i'd probably talked to a couple of people and looked at a few rooms.. hell it took me 40 mins just to figure out the thing with the clock haha

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

Unknown

I think, like, one game will be pushing people into a volcano with a car, another will be a chase on foot with guns, another will be like bungee jumping from a dude's nose.

Anyone want to bet on this? Place your bets now...

Unknown

I think, like, one game will be pushing people into a volcano with a car, another will be a chase on foot with guns, another will be like bungee jumping from a dude's nose.

Anyone want to bet on this? Place your bets now...

You are right, and see the problem? Right in front of you? How can one make it non linear this way? You can't choose, if there are multiple simultaneous puzzles, which one to do.

You can't go and unwrap the one clue if you are stuck with another.

You can't pick that useless piece of rope if that is actually useless in this episode. As the next does not remember did you pick it up or not.

Unknown

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

That is the point I've been trying to explain ever since I registered to this forum.

Each episode as its own game: Puzzles become more strict to the episode, nothing can refer to before happened. And puzzles can't unveil itself by time. As it does not make sense to make forced to pick that useless piece of wood, or any other if you don't need it for awhile.

You can imagine it this way too: You are stranded (referring to monkey island) to island each time next episode becomes, which means all the collected stuff becomes irrelevant OR each episode has it's own static given collectibles in pocket, which have been forced to pick up earlier.

Instead of one challenging chess game, you are playing twenty little chess games. (Notice that in one chess game the moves you make at the beginning means something, rather than in twenty little games, as each game is it's own)

All the problems of own-game-episodic presentation could be "fixed" with expanding episodic presentation.

Here is an diagram that shows exactly how episodic presentation affects the linearity of the adventure game:
(for those of you who does not have a such a strong image what does it mean)

("larger" version: http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames.png)

jp-30

What you propose (revisiting locations, retaining items etc. from earlier episodes) would mean that everybody must play episode 1 before playing episode 2 before playing episode 3 etc.

The way Telltale are doing things, the episodes can be played in any order (how's THAT for non linearity?) and do not all need to be played to get into the latest episode, like skipping an episode of your favourite TV series, or watching an episode recorded by a friend out-of-order with the rest of the season.

Which is contrary to the whole reasoning behind setting the episodes up as games that can be enjoyed (and marketed) as standalones.

And those of us who play them all will be rewarded by the overall story arc that is occurring co-currently throughout the episodes.

Additionally if you're desperate to revisit an old location, just fire up an old episode.

Remember Grim Fandango? 4 distinct time periods / locations. You could in fact have played each of them separately as standalone episodes.

So just consider Sam & Max episodes a little like Grim Fandango, except there's a wait between leaving one section (episode) and getting to another. Even the Monkey Island games had distinct chapters where new sections would open up and some older locations would become unvailable.

So this whole episodic thing has in essence been done before on some of the greatest adventure games ever made.

Emily

I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak.

No one's really done this before, so it makes sense for you guys to be unsure about how it'll turn out. But there are obviously a lot of preconceived ideas that people have about what an episodic game is, that no amount of explanation from Telltale beforehand is going to dispell. When they come out, the games will speak for themselves.

Until then, go play Bone! )

Unknown

The way Telltale are doing things, the episodes can be played in any order (how's THAT for non linearity?) and do not all need to be played to get into the latest episode, like skipping an episode of your favourite TV series, or watching an episode recorded by a friend out-of-order with the rest of the season.

As far as i know, any order won't do. Only ascending order and skipping means you lose a little bit of the plot (in worst case scenario).

If you imagine that any order would do, then it would be even more linear. As they don't connect to each other in none ways.

You can't simply "fix this problem" by any method. It is mathematically impossible, only vivid telling can save the current method. Thats why I can't say if it will be bad or not. It is sure that since each episode is own game the linearity will increase no matter what, how much that will affect the mood is probably the question we should ask. And you can't answer to that until you have played the game.

jp-30

And how is any of this different to Grim Fandango, say, where you progressed from one year to the next, and couldn't backtrack to the previous year's locations?

Unknown

The Grim Fandango example is a good one... Those could have been 4 years..4 different episodes.. but would each year be 2 hours of gameplay? I'd say it would be a lot longer than that.. and were the years self contained? the story continued on..so the grim fandango designers didnt have to worry about wrapping up a case. If you are telling a story within 2 hours..either the story will not have much to it..or the gameplay will be very short. Now I'm not going to be able to judge this until I've actually played the game.. but until then I'm gonna try and figure out how you can have a adventure game episode lasting only 2 hours.. I mean people complained out from boneville was too short and that was about 3-4 hours.. What could you possible do in a game half of that :-?

and let me make another point.. I thought there was some very clever puzzles in the great cow race..which I really enjoyed..but they didn't take long to solve because there was really nothing else to get caught up on or stuck with.. a bigger world more things to do gives you a larger range of possibilities..suddenly that clever little puzzle is harder and you have to think more..but I dont think you'll be able to have that big a world in a 2 hour game.. In the old luscasarts games I could easily spend 2 hours just on one puzzle.. The challenge is definitely there for Dave & co on this 1

Unknown

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

That is the point I've been trying to explain ever since I registered to this forum.

Each episode as its own game: Puzzles become more strict to the episode, nothing can refer to before happened. And puzzles can't unveil itself by time. As it does not make sense to make forced to pick that useless piece of wood, or any other if you don't need it for awhile.

You can imagine it this way too: You are stranded (referring to monkey island) to island each time next episode becomes, which means all the collected stuff becomes irrelevant OR each episode has it's own static given collectibles in pocket, which have been forced to pick up earlier.

Instead of one challenging chess game, you are playing twenty little chess games. (Notice that in one chess game the moves you make at the beginning means something, rather than in twenty little games, as each game is it's own)

All the problems of own-game-episodic presentation could be "fixed" with expanding episodic presentation.

Here is an diagram that shows exactly how episodic presentation affects the linearity of the adventure game:
(for those of you who does not have a such a strong image what does it mean)

("larger" version: http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames.png)

yeah... okay.

Unknown

Ciantic, we're not talking about one SINGLE game broken in pieces, we're talking about many little games with a shared subplot. "The Great Cow Race" DOES feature an Adventure Game Plot System and lasts five hours. It could easily last two hours if it contained just the central part, which is non-linear, BTW.
It's a different way to conceive the adventure gaming experience: is it worse than the old one? Is it better than the old one? IT IS DIFFERENT. Adventure gaming won't die because of the Sam & Max Season One. We're experiencing the birth of a subgenre. We've already witnessed the puzzlegame-adventure hybrid with Myst, now we're faced with something else.

P.S.: Does anyone remember Coktel Vision's Gobliins 2 & 3? Each chapter contained two or three locations, YET puzzles weren't linear. Lot of fun, tricky difficulty level too.