Episodic?
Please don't do episodic web releases, because quite frankly, they [edit: are not good*] (no, not that rabbit)! I want to goto my local software store and purchase a copy of Sam & Max! I want a box, I want a manual, and I feely things, damnit!! Double the price, triple the price, I don't care! I do NOT want a bunch of 1's and 0's on my harddrive, I want them on a full-color-labeled CD! Don't tell us you can't, and don't tell us you won't; just make it happen, and you won't regret it!
[*edited by Heather for family friendliness]
[*edited by Heather for family friendliness]
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Just give Telltale a chance and I'm sure they'll deliver to you many entertaining adventures so fast and so often, you'll be thanking them that you don't have to make so many trips to the retail stores, saving your room the fate of being converted into a warehouse of full of worn out, scratched CD-ROMs and rotting cardboard boxes crushing each other.
Alternatively, you could try and convince Steve Purcell that you can do a better job, and then make it yourself :-)
Seriously tho, I'll take it any way I can get it. So to speak....
..ahem. Is this thing on?
I wont buy a game sold in episodes and not localized.
I'm from germany, and here most adventurgamer has this attitude.
They should make a full price game in a nice Box for collectors and localize it.
Who said it wouldn't be localised?
Perhaps they could release a boxed version every 3 episodes. Who knows. Would you rather have no Sam and Max? Seriously. I mean, your english seems good enough to post in here.
SNM is a much larger license than Bone, purely because it comes complete with a world-wide installed userbase already.
Surely a TV series would be a better analogy for this type of game release method?
There you go. Don't get it then, and the worldly balance is restored.
No. Like I said, this is a larger affair. You said it yourself. German and French, even Croation games are localised into english, because it's just more prevalant. That's called good business.
I mean, I just don't get it. Everyone desparately wants Sam and Max to return, but then you all [*edit: whinge] and moan and whine that it isn't being released in the way that you want?. You want it your way or not at all. Be grateful, or be gone, really. Not happy? Fine then. Don't buy it. Problem solved.
Telltale will do what they believe is right, and if there is a large enough complaint about it, then perhaps they will release a boxed version at the end of it, or even at the beginning. Who knows. But to say you wont get it because of something like this is just childish.
[*edited by Heather -- let's avoid non-kid-friendly words folks.]
[*edited by Heather -- let's keep it friendly.]
ooh, my professor that teaches "english as a global language" would've HATED that statement.
Regarding Episodic-format, it means I won't be abel to buy it, since I don't have VISA or any international credit-card. Oh well, it'll be nice reading about it anyway.
Now THAT sounds familiar...oh yes... I heard it twenty years ago! Oh, and wheres my damn flying car!?
That's not true at all, actually. Sam & Max is pretty obscure in comparison to Bone, which does have a world-wide installed userbase already.
That said, it would be a huge mistake for Telltale to not offer the game in multiple languages and they know it, and they will be offering localized versions of Bone in the future (they've said so). I hope the localized versions are available immediately next time, because one of the good things about online distribution is that it allows everyone to get the game at the same time regardless of where they live.
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!!!!
Hmm...this seems very familar to me. Oh yeah, I have heard it before, except one time it was "Americans" instead of Germans and the other time it was "Norwegians." "Hi, I'm from country name here and since everyone in my country shares my opinion I speak on behalf of them therefore you have to sell the game a certain way because we're more collectors here than anyone else and we like boxes more than anyone else."
Localization is important, but I don't get this whole thing about how one country likes boxes more than anyone else. Maybe Telltale's decision to release their games a certain way had reasons behind it. Who knows?
get with the future or stay stuck in the past..
The difference is that I can still play Sam and Max Hit The Road, I can still play Monkey Island 1 and the Goblins games.
Let's say (hypothetically) that Telltale do an Ally McBeal game, closely followed by a series of Fluffy The Hamster Slayer titles, all of which perform bysmally and unfortunately ultimately result in Telltale closing its doors due to financial preassure and terrorist threats.
Or let's say (hypothetially that Telltale forgets its roots and starts disrespecting its fanbase by cancelling long anticipated titles and erasing all existance of their original works (al-la Lucasarts).
I've got a CD with Sam and Max on it. I've got a set of floppy disks with MI on it. Aside from the fact that I love having physical things I han hold and use like t-shirts, soundtracks, manuals, maps, etc., I've got a hard copy and if I have a hard drive crash, or get my machine stolen, or the world's telecomunications networks explode in a firey iferno, or the game is taken off the shelves, I can still play my much loved games. If a title is available via an online distribution only, then it's available for only as long as it suits the people who operate the servers (not that I'm implying that will be a problem, it's just nice to know that there's a less transient copy in my CD rack).
At any rate, I'm glad the franchise is being revived.
I hear they make CD burners for home computers now.
Doesn't bone have one of those annoying installers that grabs the resources from the online servers, pretty much only allowing you to install it on a computer connected to the internet?
Look at the price they are charging for Bone, $20. Good price, right? Sure, but its only PART of a game, and the cost will add up. Give me all the 'episodes' in a box for one price, and I'll buy it.
I hear all this talk about TellTale being a startup company that has little money and resources, and they need to use this format to make ends meet at the end of the day, I don't buy into that. TellTale now has two products under their belt, if they are indeed still aching for money, maybe they need to rethink their distribution plan. Startup companies can indeed still succeed by releasing their products to retail (DoubleFine comes to mind).
Nobody has been bashing, whining, crying, or anything else in this thread, so why the harshness from everyone? We are voicing OUR opinions, please forgive us if they are not the same as yours.
After all is said and done, I will most likely still buy S&M regardless of what 'format' it is released in, and I do have faith in TellTale's commitment to the project, but if I want to dream about living in the past, I will.
Yeah, but I expect such 'other means' are going to rely on outside variables.
*touching plastic vineer*
(It's the closest thing to wood that I've got next to me)
Double Fine had the funding of a major publisher. Well, two actually, but not at the same time.
So, your saying, you want the game to be in the sneakernet? Not the internet?
Sneakernet? look it up on wikipedia.com
Also, it will end up on your hardrive as 1s and 0s either way.
Theres another thing: WHY NOT DO BOTH?!?!?!?! You can download it, or buy it from a store? Why? Some people cant buy stuff on the internet, like me... And some people buy stuff only from the internet. Why not do both????
This is the best thing I've read from this thread!
Telltale, make all of us happy and do them both!
Another thing I have to say: I think that our doubts about the episodic format are due to the fear of having lots of mini-adventures instead of a BIG COMPLETE one.
It's not a matter of downloading the game or buying it in a store (also if I'd prefer to find it on the shelves).
The problem is: MAKE A COMPLETE ADVENTURE, not lots of mini-episodes. Please, guys
You can´t compare Doublefine to telltale. As said before Doublefine had a publisher deal(first MS which then got canned and now Majesco). They made a platformer btw, which is probably at least a 1000 times easier to pitch to a publisher. Also I´m not sure how well the sales of Psychonauts are doing, if you got hard numbers about that, I´d be more than interested to see them. I bought psychonauts off the doublefine shop from America when I saw its available. Which was more by accident, because it seems that it wasn´t that advertised for at all. Hell it´s yet going to be released in Europe. Surely it wasn´t the localization either, because last time I checked the UK wouldn´t need the product translated.
I like shiny packaged stuff too, but I prefer getting a good Sam & Max game to nothing. Lucasarts had probably not too little funding for the game and decided that adventure games just don´t sell enough anymore these days to keep developing it. So if that means I have to get the game as online download to get it at all, thats fine with me. Even if I could choose, I´d take the direct route, just so the developer actually gets the most money and not the publisher, store chain or anyone else.
I understood the uproar when EA tried to force the games into DVD cases only and get rid of the boxes. Since it was clear that we won´t see a dime of the savings they make due to reduced store space and packaging costs. But here its about a small developer. 2 products you say? Wow, thats like a guarantee that telltale is rich and now can do whatever they want. After all bone probably sold more copies on its release day than half life on its whole lifecycle...
But what I'm trying to explain is: if they just HAVE to sell it by downloading because of financial troubles, it's not a problem.
But WHY can't they do a complete adventure?
I mean, I'd rather wait 2 years for a big Sam & Max game to download, then 7-8 months for a small episode...
Don't you all guys agree with this??
How about this, though... I've already talked about this, but how about you just put off buying the first few Sam & Max episodes? After two or three years, when three or four episodes are released, you can buy them all at the same time and play them straight through. It'll be just like a longer game, or even bigger. I don't see what the problem is. It's still going to take the same amount of time for Telltale to make a bunch of shorter episodes as it would for them to make a full-length game. It just means you'll have to take it upon yourself to prolong enjoyment, rather than demanding Telltale enforce it on everybody.
If you all claim to have the patience to wait for a longer game that you say you do, then you'll have no problem postponing the experience for yourself. In the meantime, the rest of us are going to enjoy the episodes as they're released. But in the end, we're all have had a satisfying entertainment experience, enjoying it in the manner we each preferred. We can all hold hands and sing songs by the fire and smile with dumb looks on our faces. It'll be great.
Wrong. It's its own game, it's just shorter than your usual one. It's not like Telltale has this big game that they're cutting up into little parts. The games will tell a big story, yes, but the idea is that each game stands on it's own. The games are being made one at the time.
A TOOOOOOON of people buy games simply by goin to the store, browsing the game rack and then deciding on one.
Mr. "Joe schmoe" that makes up quite a bit of the market might not be likely to physically log into his computer and look up telltalegames and decide to buy it on a whim.
As far as "episodic" games go, like bone. I'm not a big fan of them myself.
Mainly because usually once you have bought the episodes the price of the "full" completed game ends up being more then a usual game.
So you spend $20 for 2 hours of gameplay, if it's on say 4 episodes that's $80 for 8hours of gameplay...which is kind of high imo.
1) TellTale has already lowered the price of Texas Hold'em from 19.99 to 12.99 after nine months. There's no reason to think that they won't do the same for every single Bone episode. 180$ for the whole Bone series? How can you even think it will happen? Come on....do you really think that the price of Bone 1 will still be the same in a 3-4 years time?!?!?
2) A short commitment, 5-6 months of production for a miniadventure, is much more feasible: many games risk to be cancelled when their production-times last two-three years. This happened to S&MFP, FT2 and was about to happen to Psychonauts. Even Tim Schafer said that on-line distribution is the future for really creative stuff: he had a lot of problems to pitch a retail funny game to publishers and it seems he got enough of that.
3) Connors has promised localizations of their games. So...no problem there.
4) I am sure TellTale will provide cd/dvd-rom compilations of the episodes: they've already talked about that.
5) Sam & Max stories don't rely on epic narrative. In Sam & Max Hit The Road situations were far more important than the plot itself. Purcell's style is nonsensical and surreal: you can pack it in short stories without loosing its flavor.
Domenico (Italy)
Telltale accept Paypal payments, and I'm pretty sure that Paypal will accept money orders (which you can post), so you should still be able to get your hands on it without paying 'over the internet' (I'm in the same boat - I don't have a credit card, nor do I ever intend to get one).
The whole thing isn´t that companies like telltale do not want to have them in stores. I don´t even think they love the episodic thing so much that they want to do it that way at all cost. But its simple to explain. Paying artists, programmers, etc for 1-2 years without getting any revenue while working on the game is what a publisher is for, but that means you have to work on a project he thinks will succeed. Thats where you are already out if you talk about classic style adventure games today. Next thing is that once you have a publisher, he wants to have the rights to the intellectual property (just like Sam & Max was bound to Lucasarts until a short time ago if I´m not mistaken) and that he watches over your development and in case he doesn´t like something he will say "Can´t you make that blue instead?".
With shortening game development cycles by several months you cut the money you need to spend up front by a big percentage. That empowers you to create a game that is still reasonably long to stand on its own, but creates income for you more early that enables your company to survive and create more games.
Then comes the online distribution. It´s a way you can get your game out there to a pretty good share of people and keeping the costs down. Shelf space costs money, you get off the shelf fast for other games that might be bigger sellers and if you do not have a publisher I imagine it pretty damn hard to get the distribution canals opened for you at all.
If you look at it, it´s pretty much the only way this can work. You want to convince me otherwise? Call up one of the big name publishers then and ask them if they would fund a game like Sam & Max and distribute it. I think some wouldn´t even say no, but just laugh into your face.
Well apparently not enough of those people buy adventure games, otherwise companies wouldn't have to search for other means of distribution. Fear of low sales are the reason so few good adventures are made nowadays, and why companies like LucasArts get to the point where they cancel even the most popular of adventure licenses.
I wouldn't be surprised if Telltale later offered its games on a CD for people who for some reason can't stand to download it, but I wouldn't expect it to appear in a store. It costs a lot of money to put a game on a shelf.
Depends what you mean by succeed. Double Fine spent near five years making a game and ended up getting cancelled in the middle of it. When the game finally was released it sold poorly despite being the best game to come out this year. Also Double Fine is a developer only, while Telltale is a developer and publisher, so stuff like distribution and marketing is their responsibility as is the finance required to make it successful.
So?
I wouldn't exactly call telltale texas hold em a product. More like a warm up exercise or glorified demo. It was short and sweet.
And what is the point anyway? Pirates will get the games anyway while buyers will be left with all the copy protection shit.
And I'm pretty sure Bone is cracked by now.. so that leaves us honest people worst off.
Honest buyers pay to get a copy protecion ridden game while pirates get the games for free without any annoying copy protection.
And I especially hate any internet related copy protection, that basically means that your game comes with a timed bomb on it.. when the company goes under, so will all the games you bought from that company. Unless they put it in their EULA that they WILL release some kind of patch, I don't buy that either.
In the future, I'm sure a lot of games will just vanish as this copy protection thing will eventually kill them off (if they manage to protect them well enough not to get cracked.. otherwise crackers will probably save the games).
Also, I prefer normal games to episodic.. episodic games are like mini episodes, it doesn't feel like one complete adventure. Bone is a brilliant example, that game had no gameplay at all and it's short and not really good at all.
That's an interesting concept. One that I and the rest of my small development team have discussed a lot.
Given the time it takes to have copy protection circumvented, it hardly seems worth the effort to pay someone three or four weeks worth of wages developing a copy protection system only to have it cracked within three or four days of release.
Our philosphy is/will be to make the product worth buying through a) having a fantastic game and b) offering goodies and extras in with the packaging.
Admittedly, we haven't had any commercial releases to date, but we feel that as long as the system respects the users, then it'll be well received.
An episodic release system doesn't have to be so bad. I expect the first few episodes will take longer/not be as polished, but as the franchise progresses, Telltale will be able to take advantages of resources and assets which have already been developed for previous episodes (eg: they'd be stupid to re-do Sam and Max's office for every episode), and deliver bigger, more involved and more complex episodes.
AND, it gives them time to guage what sort of reaction there is from the playing community to their work and hopefully tailor functionality and interface to match the needs of their customer base.
Personally though, I'd enjoy having episodes which were moderately self contained, but created an in-depth arc over the series. Too self containment could sort of take away from the exploration that games like Monkey Island and the original Sam and Max offered (the sort of bewildered amazement as you wandered around improbable locations and poked things).
Granted, Bone 1 had some of these shortcomings, but they have nothing to do with the game being episodic. There were just design flaws (due to the fact TellTale was addressing the casual gamers public too much, IMHO). I'm almost sure those will be corrected in the following releases.
Domenico (Italy)
You don't actually HAVE to be online for this. Only the once, to unlock the game, or again if you reinstall at some point.
This isn't STEAM they're talking about. The logistics of dealing with that many copy-prot queries whenever ppl want to play are probably not worth the effort for a company that has been finding its legs, and its voice.
if the protection doesn't screw up my computer thats a good thing
The installer does work like that, but afterwards all the resource files are on your hard drive.