It isn't relevant to the concept that both were in a life threatening situation where they were looking to the other for help. The consequences of not giving said help (aka putting someone in jeopardy) is a totally separate conversation.
Kenny not giving Lee help at the drug store is the same concept as Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker. Neither one actually legitimately needed the other's help in order to survive, but both were in a very dangerous situation where they looked to each other for help. Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker put Kenny's life in jeopardy, even though Kenny was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. Kenny not helping Lee at the drug store put Lee's life in jeopardy, even though Lee was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. And honestly, them being able to work out their danger on their own has nothing to do with it. All that matters is that both put each other's survival in jeopardy.
Edit:
Down vote me all you want you guys, doesn't change the fact that I'm right.
Who jeopardized who's life is relevant because it can be argued that Kenny almost got Lee killed with his inaction while Lee's inaction had … morelittle bearing on what happened, which is why people dislike him.
So how was Lee not helping in the meat locker the same as Kenny sitting around and watching Lee about to get shot/eaten the same thing? Again, Kenny COULD HAVE USED SOME ASSISTANCE, and Lee didn't give it to him. Lee NEEDED HELP IF HE WANTED TO NOT DIE, and Kenny didn't give it to him
I don't think it's that decision that most people dislike Kenny for. It's how he acts afterwards.
For me, the final straw was when he nearly refused to help save Clementine just because he and Lee didn't always see eye to eye. AKA Lee didn't side with Kenny in every argument and tried to stay neutral or Lee didn't help him smash Larry's head in or that Lee tried to end a girl's suffering instead of leaving her to die a painful death to gain a few extra minutes (a scene people tend to forget about when defending Kenny). It didn't matter that I saved his family, was always loyal to him in the end and always kept their well-being in mind. I didn't do everything Kenny thought was right and Kenny couldn't handle that.
And all of that is fine, it really is. Understandable even. But refusing to save a little girl, a girl in serious danger that he's supposed to care about, just because he and Lee didn't get along, that's just horrid. I will NEVER be able to like him after that and I find his protectiveness of Clementine now a bit laughable because of it. I find Kenny more compelling this season but that will always be on my mind with every interaction with him and I'll never forgive him for it.
Long story short, I don't dislike Kenny for the Larry incident and most people I've talked with who dislike Kenny don't just dislike him for killing Larry like that. It goes beyond that.
First, as I pointed out earlier he was already dead.
Second, there was a CHILD in the room. YOUR kid.
It's one thing to risk your own life to save an asshole, but to be willing to risk a child's life (and others'. If they had died in that room, Katya and Duck were done for) for him, who wouldn't have shown the same courtesy even if it was a kid in that situation, that's NOT the right fucking thing to do. That's just totally irresponsible.
Seriously, do you really think risking Clementine's life to save a man (who tried to kill a KID) that had maybe a 5% (that is WITH medical equipment btw) chance to live would be the right thing to do? Seriously?
Because it's the right fucking thing to do. By leaving him to die, is just seeping down to his level, and I don't know about you, but that's an area that I'd prefer not to go into.
If it was up to Larry and his decision to whether everyone kills him or not. He would've chosen sure death over the chance of reanimating and eating his own daughter.
As for why Kenny treats you shitty if you don't help him? Well, for one you favor the small chance of saving Larry over Kenny's and everyone in the meat locker else's lives.
And by extension you also put at risk Duck and Katjaa's freedom(because there was no knowledge Carley/Doug and Ben would come)
And also above that, do you know how hard it is to make the seemingly cold highly unpopular decision without the support of anyone, including your closest friend? Kenny couldn't have asked Lilly to kill her own dad. And he sure as hell couldn't ask Clementine either. There was only one man left in the room who could help Kenny with this conflict.
It still doesn't make it right that he didn't help Lee from life threatening danger twice because of that, and his attitude toward you until you escape was very very bad too. But it's natural human behavior. Kenny was stressed the hell out because he was carrying something alone. Something he feels probably no one in the group will agree with. "I'd like a thank you for once. For Once!!", he really geniounly thought(and could be right about how) he saved the group with that decision, and to be pictured by others as the villain. Of course he'd give of the vibe of great anger and stress and venting out. As opposed to if he had somebody else's support.
Actually Larry wasn't a racist , he had a good reason not to trust Lee knowing that he killed a man .
Larry was an ass hole but definitely not a racist
Defibrillators also don't work like they do in movies since they're designed to stop someone's heart in order to cure a weak heart. So there would have been no way to save Larry
Larry was DEAD.
CPR doesn't work like it does in the movies. You can't just perform CPR for a few minutes and then the victim wakes up, to… moretally lucid with no damage whatsoever.
Without a heart starter or defibrillator there was no way Larry was walking out of there.
I understand why Lily didn't want to do it, and to be honest I tried to help Lily, because I felt that's what Lee would do in that situation. But that doesn't change the fact that Kenny was right.
Larry the shithead on the other hand, wanted to kill a KID, because he was covered in fucking muck.
He was an asshole, and I don't miss him.
None of these points give you the right to kill someone.
Now, this might be because I am a very forgiving person (Heck, I'm commanded to.) but I don't see how we can murder Larry out of hate. It just shows us how much we are like him. Not to mention we are 'kicking him while he is down', now that is a douchebag thing to do.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.
The point is that Lee not helping Kenny did not endanger Kenny anywhere near the amount that Kenny not helping Lee endangered Lee. This is very relevant because many people found that what Kenny did (or rather, didn't do) as a result of Lee's inaction was a completely disproportionate and unjustified reaction. Referring back to the thread, I'm just saying that this is one extremely valid reason why people dislike Kenny after the meat locker incident.
There's a difference between not helping someone neutralize a temporarily incapacitated threat, and not helping someone IMMEDIATELY about to get shot in the face.
It isn't relevant to the concept that both were in a life threatening situation where they were looking to the other for help. The consequen… moreces of not giving said help (aka putting someone in jeopardy) is a totally separate conversation.
Kenny not giving Lee help at the drug store is the same concept as Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker. Neither one actually legitimately needed the other's help in order to survive, but both were in a very dangerous situation where they looked to each other for help. Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker put Kenny's life in jeopardy, even though Kenny was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. Kenny not helping Lee at the drug store put Lee's life in jeopardy, even though Lee was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. And honestly, them being able to work out their danger on their own has nothing to do with it. All that matters is that both put each other's survival… [view original content]
None of these points give you the right to kill someone.
Now, this might be because I am a very forgiving person (Heck, I'm commanded t… moreo.) but I don't see how we can murder Larry out of hate. It just shows us how much we are like him. Not to mention we are 'kicking him while he is down', now that is a douchebag thing to do.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.
Did you forget that people hated Kenny before he killed Larry?
Did you forget that Kenny doesnt trust you enough to listen to you telling him you can save Larry?
I can almost guarantee, that if it was you locked in that room with him you would be wanting Kenny to do exactly the same thing. The guy was massive, lets not forget he punched Lee and left him for dead. But as usual good old Kenny comes to save the day.
I hated Larry and wanted to kick him of the group at gun point or take him out in the woods and kill him after episode one. I thought he was a dangerous and unstable man who needed to be dealt with by Lee and Kenny on their terms. It seemed pretty obvious he was going to cause a violent conflict with Lee or Kenny that was going to get someone killed after his previous actions and behavior. With that said I didn't base my decision to kill him in the meat locker on any of that. I hesitated for a moment because I didn't want to do it front of Clem and Lilly. It wasn't an easy decision for me, but it felt like the only choice considering the circumstances. I didn't enjoy it though because I hated having to do it front of Clem while holding Lilly back. I have made jokes about wishing Lee could have smashed his head in with the salt lick like a lot of other fans, but to be honest it wasn't enjoyable to me at all in my original game. I killed both brothers as well and felt overwhelmed with all the decisions I was having to make in such a short period of time at that point in the game. Up until that point of the game I found all the choices easy to make and had never doubted whether I had made the right decision or not. I guess Larry's past violent behavior did have an impact on my decision though because if it was Kenny or Lilly who had collapsed I probably would have helped them or ran out of time trying to make a decision. I would have taken more risk for them because I thought they were better people.
Loyalty is very important to Kenny and he values it greatly. By him saying "Would you put your life on the line" in episode 4 I think he mig… moreht of been referring to his reputation and outlook the group had on him. Kenny was viewed as a kind of antagonist by mostly everyone, Lee, Lilly even his wife Katjaa if you left him alone on taking care of Larry. This would really effect someone that was just trying to keep everyone safe. I killed Larry in the meat locker and I do believe he was alive but I wasn't willing to take the risk, only 5-10% of people will successfully be resurrected by CPR without the use of medical equipment. It can only stabilize the heart. We don't know how long it would take for him to turn and there was no pulse or breathing this means no oxygen to the brain, that was not a risk that we could take in such and enclosed space with a man of that size.He could knock Kenny and Lee down in one punch. Imagine a man that size forci… [view original content]
I hated Larry and wanted to kick him of the group at gun point or take him out in the woods and kill him after episode one. I thought he was a dangerous and unstable man who needed to be dealt with by Lee and Kenny on their terms. It seemed pretty obvious he was going to cause a violent conflict with Lee or Kenny that was going to get someone killed after his previous actions and behavior. With that said I didn't base my decision to kill him in the meat locker on any of that. I hesitated for a moment because I didn't want to do it front of Clem and Lilly. It wasn't an easy decision for me, but it felt like the only choice considering the circumstances. I didn't enjoy it though because I hated having to do it front of Clem while holding Lilly back. I have made jokes about wishing Lee could have smashed his head in with the salt lick like a lot of other fans, but to be honest it wasn't enjoyable to me at all in my original game. I killed both brothers as well and felt overwhelmed with all the decisions I was having to make in such a short period of time at that point in the game. Up until that point of the game I found all the choices easy to make and had never doubted whether I had made the right decision or not. I guess Larry's past violent behavior did have an impact on my decision though because if it was Kenny or Lilly who had collapsed I probably would have helped them or ran out of time trying to make a decision. I would have taken more risk for them because I thought they were better people.
Loyalty is very important to Kenny and he values it greatly. By him saying "Would you put your life on the line" in episode 4 I think he mig… moreht of been referring to his reputation and outlook the group had on him. Kenny was viewed as a kind of antagonist by mostly everyone, Lee, Lilly even his wife Katjaa if you left him alone on taking care of Larry. This would really effect someone that was just trying to keep everyone safe. I killed Larry in the meat locker and I do believe he was alive but I wasn't willing to take the risk, only 5-10% of people will successfully be resurrected by CPR without the use of medical equipment. It can only stabilize the heart. We don't know how long it would take for him to turn and there was no pulse or breathing this means no oxygen to the brain, that was not a risk that we could take in such and enclosed space with a man of that size.He could knock Kenny and Lee down in one punch. Imagine a man that size forci… [view original content]
You know, if Kenny really didn't want the group to have a negative opinion of him, perhaps he should have tried acting less like an asshole. I agree that killing Larry was ultimately necessary, but if Kenny wants group support so much to the point that he'd be willing to let Lee die for not getting any, the "I am right, and you are a stupid, irrational moron for disagreeing with me" might not the best mindset to have.
If it was up to Larry and his decision to whether everyone kills him or not. He would've chosen sure death over the chance of reanimating an… mored eating his own daughter.
As for why Kenny treats you shitty if you don't help him? Well, for one you favor the small chance of saving Larry over Kenny's and everyone in the meat locker else's lives.
And by extension you also put at risk Duck and Katjaa's freedom(because there was no knowledge Carley/Doug and Ben would come)
And also above that, do you know how hard it is to make the seemingly cold highly unpopular decision without the support of anyone, including your closest friend? Kenny couldn't have asked Lilly to kill her own dad. And he sure as hell couldn't ask Clementine either. There was only one man left in the room who could help Kenny with this conflict.
It still doesn't make it right that he didn't help Lee from life threatening danger twice because of that, and his … [view original content]
None of these points give you the right to kill someone.
Now, this might be because I am a very forgiving person (Heck, I'm commanded t… moreo.) but I don't see how we can murder Larry out of hate. It just shows us how much we are like him. Not to mention we are 'kicking him while he is down', now that is a douchebag thing to do.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.
Maybe it is slightly disproportionate in terms of threat level, but once again, that does not matter. Both situations were life or death situations. Of course comparing situation to situation isn't going to be exactly proportionate. They were still the same type of situations. Just because one was slightly more dangerous than the other doesn't mean it is a totally different thing.
Lee didn't help save Kenny's life in the meat locker, so Kenny turned around and returned the favor by not saving Lee's life when he needed help. Its really that simple. The comparative danger levels of their life threatening situations have nothing to do with it.
And again, I'm not arguing that hating Kenny for his actions of not helping Lee is invalid. I totally understand why some people hate him for that. I've simply been arguing that there is another side of the coin.
Sorry for the late reply, school's a bitch :P
The point is that Lee not helping Kenny did not endanger Kenny anywhere near the amount t… morehat Kenny not helping Lee endangered Lee. This is very relevant because many people found that what Kenny did (or rather, didn't do) as a result of Lee's inaction was a completely disproportionate and unjustified reaction. Referring back to the thread, I'm just saying that this is one extremely valid reason why people dislike Kenny after the meat locker incident.
There's a difference between not helping someone neutralize a temporarily incapacitated threat, and not helping someone IMMEDIATELY about to get shot in the face.
Well, that's exactly what I was trying to do as well. I mean, I understand why people defend Kenny as well, I was just really incredulous that some people actually believe players hate Kenny for nothing more than killing Larry.
Maybe it is slightly disproportionate in terms of threat level, but once again, that does not matter. Both situations were life or death sit… moreuations. Of course comparing situation to situation isn't going to be exactly proportionate. They were still the same type of situations. Just because one was slightly more dangerous than the other doesn't mean it is a totally different thing.
Lee didn't help save Kenny's life in the meat locker, so Kenny turned around and returned the favor by not saving Lee's life when he needed help. Its really that simple. The comparative danger levels of their life threatening situations have nothing to do with it.
And again, I'm not arguing that hating Kenny for his actions of not helping Lee is invalid. I totally understand why some people hate him for that. I've simply been arguing that there is another side of the coin.
None of these points give you the right to kill someone.
Now, this might be because I am a very forgiving person (Heck, I'm commanded t… moreo.) but I don't see how we can murder Larry out of hate. It just shows us how much we are like him. Not to mention we are 'kicking him while he is down', now that is a douchebag thing to do.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.
Oh yeah, if you agree that there are two sides of the coin to look at in this situation then we are definitely on the same wavelength. Of course we have our respective opinions of the situation, but it's good that we can both see the other side. Nice discussion indeed.
Well, that's exactly what I was trying to do as well. I mean, I understand why people defend Kenny as well, I was just really incredulous th… moreat some people actually believe players hate Kenny for nothing more than killing Larry.
So... I guess that's that? Nice discussion! :)
I think they could've waited a little bit longer, just to make sure. His decision was very rushed imo, and I don't think it's right to compare Larry and Kenny. You should just do the most logical decision, no matter what background the person has.
Like I said before, I didn't say he was right or justified for acting like an ass. I said it was perfectly human error and natural of him to be like that. Hell, a lesser man would've ended up being/acting much worse. Kenny's attitude throughout the end of ep2, the start of ep3 is not justifiable. But it is excusable.
You know, if Kenny really didn't want the group to have a negative opinion of him, perhaps he should have tried acting less like an asshole.… more I agree that killing Larry was ultimately necessary, but if Kenny wants group support so much to the point that he'd be willing to let Lee die for not getting any, the "I am right, and you are a stupid, irrational moron for disagreeing with me" might not the best mindset to have.
Your whining about typos and desperate burn attempts would work a lot better not drowned out by the sound of your loose, wounded vagina flopping around this thread like a speared jellyfish.
Any TWD run without 100% Kenny allegiance is flawed and ungodly.
Actually, in my playthrough I was far from being a wuss. Not only did I kill any who opposed me, I even taught Clem to be just as merciless.… more I just refused to kill a man without proof he couldn't be saved. Larry may have been rude and a total jerk, but he was still part of our group. And I never kill anyone of the group without cause.
"[B]ut maybe in your next playthough..."
And, maybe next time you reply, you should learn to spell "through" correctly.
Not killing Larry= "giant pussy"
Lemoncakes= "giant pussy" username
Your whining about typos and desperate burn attempts would work a lot better not drowned out by the sound of your loose, wounded vagina flop… moreping around this thread like a speared jellyfish.
Any TWD run without 100% Kenny allegiance is flawed and ungodly.
I mean, if it was all real and it came down to it, I might sacrifice another human being. But I wouldn't sacrifice myself, lol. It'd go something along these lines:
Bad guy: Give yourself up, or I'll kill Daryl.
Daryl: Don't do it.
Me: Here, have Carl, instead. Will that be sufficient?
I just hated how he was an asshole of you tried to save larry.
I dont hate kenny himself, but he could have waited just a bit longer to see if larry was gonna turn.
Because Larry was still someone from your group. He punched you at first, true. He was an asshole during those 3 months, true. But he did not kill you, he even tried to saved you if you gave him your axe.
But I won't lie, if I was at his place, and it was people I know (and love) instead of Katjaa & Duck, I probably would have done the same..
-Kenny already made his mind up and wasn't even willing to try to help him. How hard would it have been to give Lee and Lily a minute while he stood ready with the saltlick?
-Larry may have been an asshole, but a lot of people played Lee as the kind of guy who generally tried to do the right thing and that was about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then.
-He had no qualms about splattering his brains all over his daughter's face and doing it in front of Clementine to boot.
-And most of all, as everyone else has said, he acts like a giant tool to you for the majority of the game if you don't help, leaves you for dead, and has to be convinced to look for a missing child that had nothing to do with his bruised ego.
I don't think it's that decision that most people dislike Kenny for. It's how he acts afterwards.
For me, the final straw was when he n… moreearly refused to help save Clementine just because he and Lee didn't always see eye to eye. AKA Lee didn't side with Kenny in every argument and tried to stay neutral or Lee didn't help him smash Larry's head in or that Lee tried to end a girl's suffering instead of leaving her to die a painful death to gain a few extra minutes (a scene people tend to forget about when defending Kenny). It didn't matter that I saved his family, was always loyal to him in the end and always kept their well-being in mind. I didn't do everything Kenny thought was right and Kenny couldn't handle that.
And all of that is fine, it really is. Understandable even. But refusing to save a little girl, a girl in serious danger that he's supposed to care about, just because he and Lee didn't get along, that's just horrid. I will… [view original content]
-Kenny already made his mind up and wasn't even willing to try to help him. How hard would it have been to give Lee and Lily a minute while he stood ready with the saltlick?
He already gave Larry a decent amount of time. Do you remember how fast David Parker reanimated back at the motor inn? It only took a couple of minutes. Larry was given around that same time frame. Kenny/Lee couldn't safely wait any longer
-Larry may have been an asshole, but a lot of people played Lee as the kind of guy who generally tried to do the right thing and that was about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then.
In Kenny's mind, finishing off Larry for the safety of the group was the right thing to do. I agree with him.
-He had no qualms about splattering his brains all over his daughter's face and doing it in front of Clementine to boot.
We're talking about a life or death situation here. These two things can't logically factor into the decision making. Either you try and save everyone's life, or you don't. Kenny thought he was saving everyone by making sure Larry didn't reanimate. I'm sure he'd prefer not to do what he did right in front of Lilly, but there really wasn't an alternative.
-And most of all, as everyone else has said, he acts like a giant tool to you for the majority of the game if you don't help, leaves you for dead, and has to be convinced to look for a missing child that had nothing to do with his bruised ego
Thinking it has to do with his bruised ego is just speculation on your part. To me, it seems more like he doesn't think Lee was willing to make the hard decision to save everyone in the meat locker. By not helping Kenny, you cause him to make that hard decision all on his own. It's understandable that he would be angry with you, just based on how he saw the situation.
A combination of:
-Kenny already made his mind up and wasn't even willing to try to help him. How hard would it have been to give Lee and… more Lily a minute while he stood ready with the saltlick?
-Larry may have been an asshole, but a lot of people played Lee as the kind of guy who generally tried to do the right thing and that was about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then.
-He had no qualms about splattering his brains all over his daughter's face and doing it in front of Clementine to boot.
-And most of all, as everyone else has said, he acts like a giant tool to you for the majority of the game if you don't help, leaves you for dead, and has to be convinced to look for a missing child that had nothing to do with his bruised ego.
I think Kenny and Lee, ( In my playthrough), did what they had to do.
Since Larry dropped dead pretty much, and could've possibly come back as a walker, I think Kenny was right to be concerned.
He already gave Larry a decent amount of time. Do you remember how fast David Parker reanimated back at the motor inn? It only took a couple of minutes. Larry was given around that same time frame. Kenny/Lee couldn't safely wait any longer
Everyone was frazzled, distracted, and not looking at the teacher at the motor inn when he turned. You don't think they could've caught Larry turning the moment it happened with two people giving him CPR and another with a saltlick hovering over his head? The circumstances in the latter scenario would've been way more controlled. How long they could've safely waited is subjective, and regardless, to me it seemed like Kenny had decided on killing him from the moment he hit the floor.
In Kenny's mind, finishing off Larry for the safety of the group was the right thing to do. I agree with him.
I don't disagree, Kenny clearly thought it was the right thing to do, I was just saying that for people playing Lee a certain way, their idea of the moral solution to that situation would've clashed with Kenny's considerably and thus colored their perception of him afterward, regardless of his good intentions.
We're talking about a life or death situation here. These two things can't logically factor into the decision making. Either you try and save everyone's life, or you don't. Kenny thought he was saving everyone by making sure Larry didn't reanimate. I'm sure he'd prefer not to do what he did right in front of Lilly, but there really wasn't an alternative.
There was an alternative, Kenny just wasn't willing to entertain it because he had already convinced himself Larry was dead and once Kenny gets something into his head, he's not likely to be dissuaded. And if it had come down to killing a Larry who turned anyway, waiting another minute might've at least given Lily the chance to look away and also not be in the splash zone instead of being blindsided the way she was because Kenny decided to make the call alone.
Thinking it has to do with his bruised ego is just speculation on your part. To me, it seems more like he doesn't think Lee was willing to make the hard decision to save everyone in the meat locker. By not helping Kenny, you cause him to make that hard decision all on his own. It's understandable that he would be angry with you, just based on how he saw the situation.
Angry at you, sure. What did that have to do with Clementine? She should have to pay because Lee made Kenny angry? Isn't his response when asked about going something like, Lee wasn't there for him? Whether it be anger, wounded ego, or whatever, he clearly uses his poor relationship with Lee as a justification for not helping search for a little girl unless you appeal to him in the right way. While I can see where Kenny is coming from in some things even if I don't agree, there's really no way around how shitty this one was, imo.
-Kenny already made his mind up and wasn't even willing to try to help him. How hard would it have been to give Lee and Lily a minute while … morehe stood ready with the saltlick?
He already gave Larry a decent amount of time. Do you remember how fast David Parker reanimated back at the motor inn? It only took a couple of minutes. Larry was given around that same time frame. Kenny/Lee couldn't safely wait any longer
-Larry may have been an asshole, but a lot of people played Lee as the kind of guy who generally tried to do the right thing and that was about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then.
In Kenny's mind, finishing off Larry for the safety of the group was the right thing to do. I agree with him.
-He had no qualms about splattering his brains all over his daughter's face and doing it in front of Clementine to boot.
We're talking about a life or death situation here. These two things can't logically fac… [view original content]
I think people dislike Kenny's act of murder on Larry because they don't think it was right... everyone has their own opinions on the matter, their answer can have many explanations
Everyone was frazzled, distracted, and not looking at the teacher at the motor inn when he turned. You don't think they could've caught Larry turning the moment it happened with two people giving him CPR and another with a saltlick hovering over his head? The circumstances in the latter scenario would've been way more controlled. How long they could've safely waited is subjective, and regardless, to me it seemed like Kenny had decided on killing him from the moment he hit the floor.
Yes, it's possible that they could have tried to place safety measures just in case Larry turned on them, by why would they even take the chance? It still would have been extremely dangerous.
I don't disagree, Kenny clearly thought it was the right thing to do, I was just saying that for people playing Lee a certain way, their idea of the moral solution to that situation would've clashed with Kenny's considerably and thus colored their perception of him afterward, regardless of his good intentions.
Weird, considering you had said that doing the right thing was "about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then."
I guess we're on the same page now, though.
There was an alternative, Kenny just wasn't willing to entertain it because he had already convinced himself Larry was dead and once Kenny gets something into his head, he's not likely to be dissuaded. And if it had come down to killing a Larry who turned anyway, waiting another minute might've at least given Lily the chance to look away and also not be in the splash zone instead of being blindsided the way she was because Kenny decided to make the call alone.
Of course there was an alternative, but he obviously wasn't willing to take any risks. He just wanted to make sure the group was safe from the immediate danger. Lilly was given 2-3 minutes to resuscitate Larry while Kenny was arguing his points. It's not like Kenny didn't even give the guy a chance, especially when you consider the fact that people can reanimate as a walker in that same time frame.
Why do you think Kenny should have waited for Larry to reanimate before deciding to take him out? That isn't necessarily a good idea at all. It puts everyone in danger, including 9 year old Clementine.
Angry at you, sure. What did that have to do with Clementine? She should have to pay because Lee made Kenny angry? Isn't his response when asked about going something like, Lee wasn't there for him? Whether it be anger, wounded ego, or whatever, he clearly uses his poor relationship with Lee as a justification for not helping search for a little girl unless you appeal to him in the right way. While I can see where Kenny is coming from in some things even if I don't agree, there's really no way around how shitty this one was, imo.
Yeah, that one incidence is pretty bad. I'm not sure if that was just a moment of weakness for him or what, considering he is more than committed to helping to find Clementine later on, even putting his own life in grave danger in the process.
He already gave Larry a decent amount of time. Do you remember how fast David Parker reanimated back at the motor inn? It only took a couple… more of minutes. Larry was given around that same time frame. Kenny/Lee couldn't safely wait any longer
Everyone was frazzled, distracted, and not looking at the teacher at the motor inn when he turned. You don't think they could've caught Larry turning the moment it happened with two people giving him CPR and another with a saltlick hovering over his head? The circumstances in the latter scenario would've been way more controlled. How long they could've safely waited is subjective, and regardless, to me it seemed like Kenny had decided on killing him from the moment he hit the floor.
In Kenny's mind, finishing off Larry for the safety of the group was the right thing to do. I agree with him.
I don't disagree, Kenny clearly thought it was the right thing to do, I was just saying that for… [view original content]
I agreed with kenny... no hard feelings here, no way was I going to wrestle that 300lb lump.. and I had no hard feelings after the act, never liked lilly or larry, what would larry have done if that was lee/clem or anyone else bar lilly....
I hope he was comming round and felt the salt in the wound........ ok a bit much but that was my decision on the fly....
I will admit tho i replayed that scene llts of times latter to rry save him to no avail...... so im not that cold hearted
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Kenny not giving Lee help at the drug store is the same concept as Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker. Neither one actually legitimately needed the other's help in order to survive, but both were in a very dangerous situation where they looked to each other for help. Lee not helping Kenny in the meat locker put Kenny's life in jeopardy, even though Kenny was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. Kenny not helping Lee at the drug store put Lee's life in jeopardy, even though Lee was ultimately able to work the situation out on his own. And honestly, them being able to work out their danger on their own has nothing to do with it. All that matters is that both put each other's survival in jeopardy.
Edit:
Down vote me all you want you guys, doesn't change the fact that I'm right.
For me, the final straw was when he nearly refused to help save Clementine just because he and Lee didn't always see eye to eye. AKA Lee didn't side with Kenny in every argument and tried to stay neutral or Lee didn't help him smash Larry's head in or that Lee tried to end a girl's suffering instead of leaving her to die a painful death to gain a few extra minutes (a scene people tend to forget about when defending Kenny). It didn't matter that I saved his family, was always loyal to him in the end and always kept their well-being in mind. I didn't do everything Kenny thought was right and Kenny couldn't handle that.
And all of that is fine, it really is. Understandable even. But refusing to save a little girl, a girl in serious danger that he's supposed to care about, just because he and Lee didn't get along, that's just horrid. I will NEVER be able to like him after that and I find his protectiveness of Clementine now a bit laughable because of it. I find Kenny more compelling this season but that will always be on my mind with every interaction with him and I'll never forgive him for it.
Long story short, I don't dislike Kenny for the Larry incident and most people I've talked with who dislike Kenny don't just dislike him for killing Larry like that. It goes beyond that.
Second, there was a CHILD in the room. YOUR kid.
It's one thing to risk your own life to save an asshole, but to be willing to risk a child's life (and others'. If they had died in that room, Katya and Duck were done for) for him, who wouldn't have shown the same courtesy even if it was a kid in that situation, that's NOT the right fucking thing to do. That's just totally irresponsible.
Seriously, do you really think risking Clementine's life to save a man (who tried to kill a KID) that had maybe a 5% (that is WITH medical equipment btw) chance to live would be the right thing to do? Seriously?
As for why Kenny treats you shitty if you don't help him? Well, for one you favor the small chance of saving Larry over Kenny's and everyone in the meat locker else's lives.
And by extension you also put at risk Duck and Katjaa's freedom(because there was no knowledge Carley/Doug and Ben would come)
And also above that, do you know how hard it is to make the seemingly cold highly unpopular decision without the support of anyone, including your closest friend? Kenny couldn't have asked Lilly to kill her own dad. And he sure as hell couldn't ask Clementine either. There was only one man left in the room who could help Kenny with this conflict.
It still doesn't make it right that he didn't help Lee from life threatening danger twice because of that, and his attitude toward you until you escape was very very bad too. But it's natural human behavior. Kenny was stressed the hell out because he was carrying something alone. Something he feels probably no one in the group will agree with. "I'd like a thank you for once. For Once!!", he really geniounly thought(and could be right about how) he saved the group with that decision, and to be pictured by others as the villain. Of course he'd give of the vibe of great anger and stress and venting out. As opposed to if he had somebody else's support.
Now, this might be because I am a very forgiving person (Heck, I'm commanded to.) but I don't see how we can murder Larry out of hate. It just shows us how much we are like him. Not to mention we are 'kicking him while he is down', now that is a douchebag thing to do.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.
Did you forget that Kenny doesnt trust you enough to listen to you telling him you can save Larry?
The point is that Lee not helping Kenny did not endanger Kenny anywhere near the amount that Kenny not helping Lee endangered Lee. This is very relevant because many people found that what Kenny did (or rather, didn't do) as a result of Lee's inaction was a completely disproportionate and unjustified reaction. Referring back to the thread, I'm just saying that this is one extremely valid reason why people dislike Kenny after the meat locker incident.
There's a difference between not helping someone neutralize a temporarily incapacitated threat, and not helping someone IMMEDIATELY about to get shot in the face.
Lilly had almost 3 minutes to revive Larry, there wasn't any time left to save him.
*Three people are in serious denial.
Lee didn't help save Kenny's life in the meat locker, so Kenny turned around and returned the favor by not saving Lee's life when he needed help. Its really that simple. The comparative danger levels of their life threatening situations have nothing to do with it.
And again, I'm not arguing that hating Kenny for his actions of not helping Lee is invalid. I totally understand why some people hate him for that. I've simply been arguing that there is another side of the coin.
So... I guess that's that? Nice discussion! :)
Any TWD run without 100% Kenny allegiance is flawed and ungodly.
So simpleminded. Obviously, you're the type to follow. I lead. Think about that.
I mean, if it was all real and it came down to it, I might sacrifice another human being. But I wouldn't sacrifice myself, lol. It'd go something along these lines:
Bad guy: Give yourself up, or I'll kill Daryl.
Daryl: Don't do it.
Me: Here, have Carl, instead. Will that be sufficient?
I just hated how he was an asshole of you tried to save larry.
I dont hate kenny himself, but he could have waited just a bit longer to see if larry was gonna turn.
Because Larry was still someone from your group. He punched you at first, true. He was an asshole during those 3 months, true. But he did not kill you, he even tried to saved you if you gave him your axe.
But I won't lie, if I was at his place, and it was people I know (and love) instead of Katjaa & Duck, I probably would have done the same..
A combination of:
-Kenny already made his mind up and wasn't even willing to try to help him. How hard would it have been to give Lee and Lily a minute while he stood ready with the saltlick?
-Larry may have been an asshole, but a lot of people played Lee as the kind of guy who generally tried to do the right thing and that was about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then.
-He had no qualms about splattering his brains all over his daughter's face and doing it in front of Clementine to boot.
-And most of all, as everyone else has said, he acts like a giant tool to you for the majority of the game if you don't help, leaves you for dead, and has to be convinced to look for a missing child that had nothing to do with his bruised ego.
You couldn't have worded it better.
He already gave Larry a decent amount of time. Do you remember how fast David Parker reanimated back at the motor inn? It only took a couple of minutes. Larry was given around that same time frame. Kenny/Lee couldn't safely wait any longer
In Kenny's mind, finishing off Larry for the safety of the group was the right thing to do. I agree with him.
We're talking about a life or death situation here. These two things can't logically factor into the decision making. Either you try and save everyone's life, or you don't. Kenny thought he was saving everyone by making sure Larry didn't reanimate. I'm sure he'd prefer not to do what he did right in front of Lilly, but there really wasn't an alternative.
Thinking it has to do with his bruised ego is just speculation on your part. To me, it seems more like he doesn't think Lee was willing to make the hard decision to save everyone in the meat locker. By not helping Kenny, you cause him to make that hard decision all on his own. It's understandable that he would be angry with you, just based on how he saw the situation.
I forgave for that by now. What I don't like is how he treats you if you don't help him kill Larry.
I think Kenny and Lee, ( In my playthrough), did what they had to do.
Since Larry dropped dead pretty much, and could've possibly come back as a walker, I think Kenny was right to be concerned.
Everyone was frazzled, distracted, and not looking at the teacher at the motor inn when he turned. You don't think they could've caught Larry turning the moment it happened with two people giving him CPR and another with a saltlick hovering over his head? The circumstances in the latter scenario would've been way more controlled. How long they could've safely waited is subjective, and regardless, to me it seemed like Kenny had decided on killing him from the moment he hit the floor.
I don't disagree, Kenny clearly thought it was the right thing to do, I was just saying that for people playing Lee a certain way, their idea of the moral solution to that situation would've clashed with Kenny's considerably and thus colored their perception of him afterward, regardless of his good intentions.
There was an alternative, Kenny just wasn't willing to entertain it because he had already convinced himself Larry was dead and once Kenny gets something into his head, he's not likely to be dissuaded. And if it had come down to killing a Larry who turned anyway, waiting another minute might've at least given Lily the chance to look away and also not be in the splash zone instead of being blindsided the way she was because Kenny decided to make the call alone.
Angry at you, sure. What did that have to do with Clementine? She should have to pay because Lee made Kenny angry? Isn't his response when asked about going something like, Lee wasn't there for him? Whether it be anger, wounded ego, or whatever, he clearly uses his poor relationship with Lee as a justification for not helping search for a little girl unless you appeal to him in the right way. While I can see where Kenny is coming from in some things even if I don't agree, there's really no way around how shitty this one was, imo.
I think people dislike Kenny's act of murder on Larry because they don't think it was right... everyone has their own opinions on the matter, their answer can have many explanations
i think people are angry because they could of tried to save Larry and if any signs of turning to walker you could of threw the salt lick.
Yes, it's possible that they could have tried to place safety measures just in case Larry turned on them, by why would they even take the chance? It still would have been extremely dangerous.
Weird, considering you had said that doing the right thing was "about the farthest thing from Kenny's mind then."
I guess we're on the same page now, though.
Of course there was an alternative, but he obviously wasn't willing to take any risks. He just wanted to make sure the group was safe from the immediate danger. Lilly was given 2-3 minutes to resuscitate Larry while Kenny was arguing his points. It's not like Kenny didn't even give the guy a chance, especially when you consider the fact that people can reanimate as a walker in that same time frame.
Why do you think Kenny should have waited for Larry to reanimate before deciding to take him out? That isn't necessarily a good idea at all. It puts everyone in danger, including 9 year old Clementine.
Yeah, that one incidence is pretty bad. I'm not sure if that was just a moment of weakness for him or what, considering he is more than committed to helping to find Clementine later on, even putting his own life in grave danger in the process.
I agreed with kenny... no hard feelings here, no way was I going to wrestle that 300lb lump.. and I had no hard feelings after the act, never liked lilly or larry, what would larry have done if that was lee/clem or anyone else bar lilly....
I hope he was comming round and felt the salt in the wound........ ok a bit much but that was my decision on the fly....
I will admit tho i replayed that scene llts of times latter to rry save him to no avail...... so im not that cold hearted