Technically speaking, if all he told Georgie to do was "take care of it" or "deal with it" (as Georgie suggested), I'm not sure he could be held legally accountable for the murders. I think you need to give a more direct order to be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder.
The way people like the Crooked Man work is they make sure they never actually say anything explicitly which would incriminate themselves for something like murder. Personally I would say he is guilty. I believe he conspired to commit the murders, possibly without ever explicitly stating it.
That doesn't make them any less guilty, it just makes it harder to prove, there is a difference. In Scotland, we have 3 verdicts: Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven.
I think he was guilty because of the way Georgie reacted when he was sold out. Also the way his 'employees' were so ready to kill Bigby in the alley. They only didn't kill him because they were 'ordered' not to. What does that say about the relationships and general practices of that group?
I admit it would be difficult to prove in a proper trial, but again that doesn't make him innocent.
I would say if you believe he's innocent then you've been duped by him just like everyone else in fabletown.
That was a point I forgot to make. The way Georgie describes, he assumed that The Crooked Man meant "kill them". What if he only meant for Georgie to resolve the matter without the intent of violence? The Crooked Man seems like a smart enough man to not order a murder, especially of 2 fables, when it would obviously lead back to him eventually. Plus, Nerissa just flat out lied about him giving the order.
Technically speaking, if all he told Georgie to do was "take care of it" or "deal with it" (as Georgie suggested), I'm not sure he could be … moreheld legally accountable for the murders. I think you need to give a more direct order to be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder.
I would be more open to the "misunderstood my intent" thing if he hadn't ordered Mary kill to Bigby in the same manner. He's smart enough to know how his lackey Georgie would have interpreted his words. Could Georgie have deal with the matter in another way? Yes. Which is why I think he's just as guilty as the Crooked Man is, if not moreso. But I don't buy that Crooky was oblivious to the impact of his words.
That was a point I forgot to make. The way Georgie describes, he assumed that The Crooked Man meant "kill them". What if he only meant for G… moreeorgie to resolve the matter without the intent of violence? The Crooked Man seems like a smart enough man to not order a murder, especially of 2 fables, when it would obviously lead back to him eventually. Plus, Nerissa just flat out lied about him giving the order.
Oops, I'm scrolling on a tiny phone, didn't realize someone had already posted this.
I just wish the game had given you the option of putting CM in holding while you gather more evidence, especially since the girls were now free to speak and CM's minions scattered.
Pretty brilliant idea. I must admit that I still believe he was indeed guilty, but I can see why you'd think he wasn't. Maybe the murders weren't directly his fault and Georgie really DID misinterpret one of his instructions...? Who knows? I'd like to believe that Bigby did the right thing by bringing him down. Even if he didn't kill those girls, he was just plain bad for Fabletown.
It was precisely the point.
1. Crooked Man didn't want Bigby dead. He had lots of chances to riddle him with silver, he didn't opt for that.
2. You can ask him why would he want a trial if Fables are likely to sentence him to death. His reply would be that it's his problem or something. He doesn't look suicidal, so he has a plan and definitely a backup ready.
3. His plan would be to make Fabletown afraid of the Wolf. His entire line of defense was "I'm helping you, they're not". If you rip his head off then he achieves his purpose. Snow's indifference/work overload + overly brutal sheriff? What more could he want.
4. Of course the plan doesn't work if CM is actually dead so my shot is CM you kill/imprison is not the real CM.
"Victim blaming" means nothing. There was no excuse for them to let someone take advantage of them when they all had the power to prevent their problems with their centuries worth of wisdom and knowledge.
Plus his 'associates' those who work under him attacked Bigby and nearly killed him multiple times and Georgie murdered under The Crooked Man, whether or not The Crooked Man did actually tell Georgie to kill the girls, The Crooked Man is still somewhat responsible for the acts of his employees.
Are you kidding me?^^ The Crooked man lied in the whole trial. I mean dont u realized it?^^ U really believed him after the things u see and heard about him? Im sry but it seems ur just a fanboy or u luv to discuss things. I mean why did u think was the crooked man so affraid when nerissa enters the ring?
Are you kidding me?^^ The Crooked man lied in the whole trial. I mean dont u realized it?^^ U really believed him after the things u see and… more heard about him? Im sry but it seems ur just a fanboy or u luv to discuss things. I mean why did u think was the crooked man so affraid when nerissa enters the ring?
Yeah... completely ignore the Butcher.... That's nice.... Put his minions by force there, threatening him, and using shackled slave labor to make his goods, thus making it cheaper than the legit stuff. He DISTRIBUTED THE STUFF. There is no way to pledge innocence in blackmail, and slave labor,
The money he loaned from the pawn shop came from illegal ways, he PLANNED AND EXECUTED. He was blackmailing crane for decades, knowing the money that he got came from embezzling from Fabletown, and MISUNDERSTANDING doesn't describe the order of kidnapping Crane from LAW ENFORCERS. Crane was protected with OFFICIAL REPRESENTATIVES, who the hell he is to say it was for CRANE's protection that he took him from the LAW? It was for HIS OWN protection.
The game goes back and forth because at the time it happens, "the truth" was measured by how many people was telling the same story, which usually fell on the side of what the wealthiest or most popular decided, since there was a legion trying to fall on their favors.
We are in in the 2010's, when smartphones and social network spread PROOF of things way faster than posses can "repeat lies until they turn true". FFS, stop being an airhead on "Poor crooked man's innocence", it might stick in the 80's, but today it's known bullshit.
Because he's a calm, reasonable man who got flabbergasted by her frantic assertiveness. But that's all irrelevant because Nerissa's confession was later revealed to be a complete lie.
The Crooked Man didn't lie about anything, the other Fables confirmed his points. He wasn't afraid of Nerissa, he was flabbergasted. Also, Nerissa later admits that her confession was a complete lie.
Are you kidding me?^^ The Crooked man lied in the whole trial. I mean dont u realized it?^^ U really believed him after the things u see and… more heard about him? Im sry but it seems ur just a fanboy or u luv to discuss things. I mean why did u think was the crooked man so affraid when nerissa enters the ring?
Because he's a calm, reasonable man who got flabbergasted by her frantic assertiveness. But that's all irrelevant because Nerissa's confession was later revealed to be a complete lie.
Because he's a calm, reasonable man who got flabbergasted by her frantic assertiveness. But that's all irrelevant because Nerissa's confession was later revealed to be a complete lie.
U are lucky that my english isnt well enough and Im to lazy to prove u that the croocked man are guilty XD and his lies are pathetic. The characte ris cool yes. but still, he's guilty in many ways.
The Crooked Man didn't lie about anything, the other Fables confirmed his points. He wasn't afraid of Nerissa, he was flabbergasted. Also, Nerissa later admits that her confession was a complete lie.
pointed a gun at bigby.
shot near him (threatened he wont miss next time)
the whole town is afraid of him, providing that they… more are already dead because they didnt go according to what he wants.
beauty and the beast reported to bigby for help
he puts ppl into debt (probably helped, but eventually he would kill the peeps who couldnt afford to pay back).
georgie's reactions in e.5 were completely full of srsness
kidnapped crane
interfered with an official murder investigation
>
grabbed then dragged bigby during his ''trial'', attempting to murder him.
=> and yet mr. leatherwolf89 says he's innocent.
probably there ain't a strong proof, but we know what's up.
There's no need to be mad at me. I have no problem clarifying things. The Crooked Man is not guilty of the murders, that's the whole point of this thread.
pointed a gun at bigby.
shot near him (threatened he wont miss next time)
the whole town is afraid of him, providing that they… more are already dead because they didnt go according to what he wants.
beauty and the beast reported to bigby for help
he puts ppl into debt (probably helped, but eventually he would kill the peeps who couldnt afford to pay back).
georgie's reactions in e.5 were completely full of srsness
kidnapped crane
interfered with an official murder investigation
>
grabbed then dragged bigby during his ''trial'', attempting to murder him.
=> and yet mr. leatherwolf89 says he's innocent.
probably there ain't a strong proof, but we know what's up.
True he did kill his family HOWEVER since he probably did sign the Fable Town charter he was given Amnesty for any crimes commited in the Homelands. So we cant use that against him.
....
HOWEVER since he has showed willingness to kill before we can use it against him ;D
Should Snow White answer for the actions of Bigby? Depending on how you play him, he uses excessive force on Gren, beats Dee/Woody during an interrogation, kills Dum. Crooked Man is probably not as innocent as he claims but like a lot of businesses, the people below you have agency to work in ways for your interest (not every procedure and action is explicitly stated). Sorry regardless of what he represents, you have the burden of proof and rarely is the testimony of one person enough to convict this man of some of the crimes he was accused. The people acted irrationally and that's not the Fabletown Snow and Bigby were trying to promote.
Plus his 'associates' those who work under him attacked Bigby and nearly killed him multiple times and Georgie murdered under The Crooked Ma… moren, whether or not The Crooked Man did actually tell Georgie to kill the girls, The Crooked Man is still somewhat responsible for the acts of his employees.
Comments
Same thing I was thinking.
What can I say, he's a good speaker...
If she could have, she would have.
Umm no. He was.
Technically speaking, if all he told Georgie to do was "take care of it" or "deal with it" (as Georgie suggested), I'm not sure he could be held legally accountable for the murders. I think you need to give a more direct order to be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder.
The way people like the Crooked Man work is they make sure they never actually say anything explicitly which would incriminate themselves for something like murder. Personally I would say he is guilty. I believe he conspired to commit the murders, possibly without ever explicitly stating it.
That doesn't make them any less guilty, it just makes it harder to prove, there is a difference. In Scotland, we have 3 verdicts: Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven.
I think he was guilty because of the way Georgie reacted when he was sold out. Also the way his 'employees' were so ready to kill Bigby in the alley. They only didn't kill him because they were 'ordered' not to. What does that say about the relationships and general practices of that group?
I admit it would be difficult to prove in a proper trial, but again that doesn't make him innocent.
I would say if you believe he's innocent then you've been duped by him just like everyone else in fabletown.
Reminded me of Henry II's "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?!"
You're still the boss, you're still ultimately responsible for any misunderstanding.
That was a point I forgot to make. The way Georgie describes, he assumed that The Crooked Man meant "kill them". What if he only meant for Georgie to resolve the matter without the intent of violence? The Crooked Man seems like a smart enough man to not order a murder, especially of 2 fables, when it would obviously lead back to him eventually. Plus, Nerissa just flat out lied about him giving the order.
I would be more open to the "misunderstood my intent" thing if he hadn't ordered Mary kill to Bigby in the same manner. He's smart enough to know how his lackey Georgie would have interpreted his words. Could Georgie have deal with the matter in another way? Yes. Which is why I think he's just as guilty as the Crooked Man is, if not moreso. But I don't buy that Crooky was oblivious to the impact of his words.
He wasn't innocent, but lets play he was.
He was still an asshole, good enough reason for me to kill him.
He actually hadn't been sentenced yet. Bigby was still internally debating.
Remember the ankle chains covered in blood at the butcher's shop? Someone sure as heck was being held as a slave.
Oops, I'm scrolling on a tiny phone, didn't realize someone had already posted this.
I just wish the game had given you the option of putting CM in holding while you gather more evidence, especially since the girls were now free to speak and CM's minions scattered.
Like how he literally kept them in chains in the back of the butcher shop?
Pretty brilliant idea. I must admit that I still believe he was indeed guilty, but I can see why you'd think he wasn't. Maybe the murders weren't directly his fault and Georgie really DID misinterpret one of his instructions...? Who knows? I'd like to believe that Bigby did the right thing by bringing him down. Even if he didn't kill those girls, he was just plain bad for Fabletown.
If it wasn't revealed, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It was precisely the point.
1. Crooked Man didn't want Bigby dead. He had lots of chances to riddle him with silver, he didn't opt for that.
2. You can ask him why would he want a trial if Fables are likely to sentence him to death. His reply would be that it's his problem or something. He doesn't look suicidal, so he has a plan and definitely a backup ready.
3. His plan would be to make Fabletown afraid of the Wolf. His entire line of defense was "I'm helping you, they're not". If you rip his head off then he achieves his purpose. Snow's indifference/work overload + overly brutal sheriff? What more could he want.
4. Of course the plan doesn't work if CM is actually dead so my shot is CM you kill/imprison is not the real CM.
They could have just talked to Bigby about it before shit got worse...
We only have the victims' word for what The Crooked Man has done to them, but that is good enough in my opinion
Plus his 'associates' those who work under him attacked Bigby and nearly killed him multiple times and Georgie murdered under The Crooked Man, whether or not The Crooked Man did actually tell Georgie to kill the girls, The Crooked Man is still somewhat responsible for the acts of his employees.
Are you kidding me?^^ The Crooked man lied in the whole trial. I mean dont u realized it?^^ U really believed him after the things u see and heard about him? Im sry but it seems ur just a fanboy or u luv to discuss things. I mean why did u think was the crooked man so affraid when nerissa enters the ring?
This. He also killed his family
If he was innocent, then why the hell did he shut up when Nerissa spoke?
Yeah... completely ignore the Butcher.... That's nice.... Put his minions by force there, threatening him, and using shackled slave labor to make his goods, thus making it cheaper than the legit stuff. He DISTRIBUTED THE STUFF. There is no way to pledge innocence in blackmail, and slave labor,
The money he loaned from the pawn shop came from illegal ways, he PLANNED AND EXECUTED. He was blackmailing crane for decades, knowing the money that he got came from embezzling from Fabletown, and MISUNDERSTANDING doesn't describe the order of kidnapping Crane from LAW ENFORCERS. Crane was protected with OFFICIAL REPRESENTATIVES, who the hell he is to say it was for CRANE's protection that he took him from the LAW? It was for HIS OWN protection.
The game goes back and forth because at the time it happens, "the truth" was measured by how many people was telling the same story, which usually fell on the side of what the wealthiest or most popular decided, since there was a legion trying to fall on their favors.
We are in in the 2010's, when smartphones and social network spread PROOF of things way faster than posses can "repeat lies until they turn true". FFS, stop being an airhead on "Poor crooked man's innocence", it might stick in the 80's, but today it's known bullshit.
You know. I was going to let you live... But not anymore
drops BYE!
Because he's a calm, reasonable man who got flabbergasted by her frantic assertiveness. But that's all irrelevant because Nerissa's confession was later revealed to be a complete lie.
The Crooked Man didn't lie about anything, the other Fables confirmed his points. He wasn't afraid of Nerissa, he was flabbergasted. Also, Nerissa later admits that her confession was a complete lie.
You don't have anything to do? We all know that he was guilty, even you know it. Stop wasting your time getting in stupid arguments.
UUAaahh...!
It would've been interesting if he pulled Bigby down with him and prompted a quick time event to pull himself up.
>
=> and yet mr. leatherwolf89 says he's innocent.
probably there ain't a strong proof, but we know what's up.
at least we know the crooked man tried to play it well, and he eventually tricked you instead of tricking fabletown!!!
U are lucky that my english isnt well enough and Im to lazy to prove u that the croocked man are guilty XD and his lies are pathetic. The characte ris cool yes. but still, he's guilty in many ways.
He still killed his family he's still a murderer
You forgot he killed his family
He did try to kill Bigby, he let everybody attack him
The real question is whether or not those were pre amnesty days. Like Bluebeard killing his wives, people aren't allowed to talk about it.
There's no need to be mad at me. I have no problem clarifying things. The Crooked Man is not guilty of the murders, that's the whole point of this thread.
Innocent of the murders.
True he did kill his family HOWEVER since he probably did sign the Fable Town charter he was given Amnesty for any crimes commited in the Homelands. So we cant use that against him.
....
HOWEVER since he has showed willingness to kill before we can use it against him ;D
Should Snow White answer for the actions of Bigby? Depending on how you play him, he uses excessive force on Gren, beats Dee/Woody during an interrogation, kills Dum. Crooked Man is probably not as innocent as he claims but like a lot of businesses, the people below you have agency to work in ways for your interest (not every procedure and action is explicitly stated). Sorry regardless of what he represents, you have the burden of proof and rarely is the testimony of one person enough to convict this man of some of the crimes he was accused. The people acted irrationally and that's not the Fabletown Snow and Bigby were trying to promote.